If you can't join'm, beat'm!

[Bob-o]

1st post here. My ride is a 1969 gto that I've been restoring since I bought it 2 1/2 years ago. I've built an aluminum headed 488 Pontiac with Fitech fuel injection. I've run the engine with a carb but not with the fuel inj yet. (Long story). My brother is a Viper owner. His current ride is a '13, he's had 5 or 6 now. He belongs to a local viper club and is constantly trying to convince me to ditch my project and (through creative financing) buy an older viper. The 3 problems I have with this are 1- Short of bank robbery as a form of creative financing I'm in no position to buy a Viper, the associated insurance or tires that I'd ruin. 2- although the Viper is the car I'd own if I had the funds the 69 gto has always been my favorite muscle car and 3- if I could afford a viper it would be one of the older ones with less hp and it would kill me to be constantly beat by him. So I'm here... In the pro touring world, trying to learn what it would take to build my 69 gto into something that would outrun his 13 viper. I feel comfortable that I can get my engine to the 600hp level with little more than the parts I currently have. I also feel comfortable that with the th400 that's in the car now and the rest of the driveline I could beat him in a 1/4 mile drag race. I'd much rather step up to a 6 speed and beef the chassis to be able to hang with him at an autocross, beat him in the 1/4 and accept my a$$ whipping on top end runs. What type of budget is involved in transforming my car to a much more capable handler with a 6 speed? I feel that I could do most of the actual work myself so the actual parts purchases are my main concern. Any input would be appreciated!

[rfalker1]

Probably a mini tub, some 315's in the rear and a 245's or more up front. A complete suspension kit, big brakes, new rims, to support the new tires. Those engine mods you speak of and the need to figure out much his vehicle weighs!

Its a long list of things to keep up with a modern viper. But it can be done, however the wallet will need to be open very ride! Best of luck!

[Streetbu]

Honestly, with you doing all of the work, you'll spend the better part of 30k just in parts to do it. There will always be someone that says I did it for half that. I suggest you save all your receipts and only buy what you actually need for thu build, even if it means waiting. Otherwise you'll end up appending much more buying the same items over and over as you upgrade. I want a Schwartz chassis but think 11K is too much. Betcha if I add up his much I have into my car and where it, plus what I still need to buy, I couldve just bought the chassis in the first place.

[dirty rick]

600hp without a power adder is not realistic from a streetable 488.

You can only win temporarily when racing check books and the other can write bigger checks.

[xsboost90]

absolutely. My project has seen scope creep galore and im on my third motor, trans, rear end, and brake setup. I figured a new rear axel for 3k was too much with brakes, so after building one and buying all the pieces- im right about 3k. Set out a detailed plan of attack and stick with it. Get the most Bang for your Buck. Much of what you'll need is enough tire and suspension to make the old goat turn and stick. Lightening it up abit prob. wouldnt hurt either. I usually read what others have tried and liked or didnt, before i dive into uncharted territory. I used to autox alot in the porsche club and i would beat people with much more suspension and power in my little 944 all the time. Power doesnt always mean faster. Only problem i see is the pontiac motor is heavy- which makes turning that much harder. Depends on how far you want to take this project- if you add a turbo, youll want that much more tire front and rear. You'll need as much as you can in the front to turn.

[Streetbu]

Pontiac engine is not heavy. Matter of fact much lighter than a big block Chevy...

[dirty rick]

Shove the motor as far back as you dare.

[xsboost90]

Pontiac engine is not heavy. Matter of fact much lighter than a big block Chevy...

really? a big block pontiac? My dad's 428 was heavy as ****. Maybe aluminum heads? Either way, gotta make that thing steer. I was rethinking this today though. I say, who cares what your brother is doing- somebody will always be ahead. Do what you want, have fun, and if you whoop him up in the process, so be it. Dont go broke trying to beat him, he'll just buy a 2016 or something and try again.

[TheJDMan]

Think of it this way, anyone can go out and buy a Viper. But not everyone can go out and build a 69 GTO. So IMO, right off the bat you have him beat in the cool factor. I do think a T56 Magnum would be even cooler still.

[SSLance]

Pretty sure you'll watch Keith drive right past a Viper in his 2nd Gen Camaro at Thunderhill last weekend in this video



There are a lot of factors involved here, not just horsepower. #1 in your case is going to be fixing your front suspension so your Goat will turn. It's possible, but it'll take some work and some good advice. I'd make the first part you purchase be an agreement to get Ron Sutton to help you with your suspension setup. I used his help to get my stock chassis Monte to beat my friend's Schwartz chassis Monte in both an Autocross and Speed Stop competition a couple of years ago. All the power in the world won't beat that Viper if your car can't stop or turn.

And oh yeah, I only had about $20,000 in my whole car at the time... Good luck.

[Godbolt]

Think of it this way, anyone can go out and buy a Viper. But not everyone can go out and build a 69 GTO. So IMO, right off the bat you have him beat in the cool factor. I do think a T56 Magnum would be even cooler still.

Spot on Steve.

[rickpaw]

another piece of advice I can give you is that develope a game plan regarding what/how you want to do with the car, whether it's suspensions/engine/or brake upgrades, and stick to it. Nothing adds cost more quickly than scope creep or change in plans.

[Nicks67GTO]

600hp without a power adder is not realistic from a streetable 488.

You can only win temporarily when racing check books and the other can write bigger checks.

Lots of Pontiac guys would disagree. 550hp/600 ft lbs is daily driver level with 12-14" of vacuum for a 468" poncho.

[ICrombie]

I'd venture to say that building up an old car to outrun a modern Viper (on the track, not just in the 1/4 mile) is going to cost a lot more than buying an old one, even if you're doing all the work yourself.
You can certainly make the car handle well on a budget, but it probably won't be in Viper territory.

As others have said already, Vipers aren't that unique. I'd much rather have something unique that I built myself than something that anyone can buy, even if my car is a bit slower.

[Bob-o]

I hear the comments about focusing on a goal. I swore I would do that when I started this project a couple of years ago. So far I've kept it to bodywork and used parts that were bought cheap enough to resell when the final plan was started. I really struggled between quarter mile/cruise car and pro-touring. I really like the pro tour cars and they seem infinitely more usable than a stop and go car that won't be great at all on the freeway. The engine I'm using is a 400 Pontiac based 488 stroker with aluminum edelbrock heads. I do feel the goal of 600hp is lofty but attainable. I'm leaning heavily towards a t56 and realize that brakes and suspension are on the list. As for beating my brother and the viper it's more of a fun sibling rivalry thing. We're both in our 40's and have been car guys our whole lives. He's always been a newer buy it done kinda guy and I've always been a "do it myselfer". The coincidence in all this is that my 488 is the same 8 liters that the vipers used to come with. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions! For now, the current th400 that is in the car hit craigslist today along with the seats. The tubular control arms designed for drag racing will be up for sale by the weekend along with the drag springs. I'll post some pics up in the next day or so.

[rfalker1]

I hear the comments about focusing on a goal. I swore I would do that when I started this project a couple of years ago. So far I've kept it to bodywork and used parts that were bought cheap enough to resell when the final plan was started. I really struggled between quarter mile/cruise car and pro-touring. I really like the pro tour cars and they seem infinitely more usable than a stop and go car that won't be great at all on the freeway. The engine I'm using is a 400 Pontiac based 488 stroker with aluminum edelbrock heads. I do feel the goal of 600hp is lofty but attainable. I'm leaning heavily towards a t56 and realize that brakes and suspension are on the list. As for beating my brother and the viper it's more of a fun sibling rivalry thing. We're both in our 40's and have been car guys our whole lives. He's always been a newer buy it done kinda guy and I've always been a "do it myselfer". The coincidence in all this is that my 488 is the same 8 liters that the vipers used to come with. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions! For now, the current th400 that is in the car hit craigslist today along with the seats. The tubular control arms designed for drag racing will be up for sale by the weekend along with the drag springs. I'll post some pics up in the next day or so.

A pro-touring car is a great cruiser as long as you don't go full track day mode (Race cars are not as street friendly), it will be a tad bit heavier but still will be able to handle a mean corner and stop better than expected.. ! Good luck!