4L80E in first gen?

[madmax]

Well,

the 5L40E was a nice dream, but I think that it would be too much $$ to make it work. I have a question now, though;

Does a 4L80E require tranny tunnel modification?

I'm going to put 650 hp and probably 600 tq through it... and I think that I might have to step up to the 4L80E unless the 4L60E can handle it.

What do you all think?



Thanks,
Max

[Steve Chryssos]

With the 4L80E, the trans tunnel needs to be dimpled for cooler line clearance (not a bad idea with the 4L60E either)
As for 4L60E vs 4L80E and 600Ft-Lbs of torque, your output is borderline. It depends on what you value more: reliability or performance.

A well built 4L60E can handle the abuse, but the 4L80E will last longer by virtue of more heavy duty internals. But the heavy duty internals of the 4L80E are uhh, heavy resultinng in greater parasitic loss.

I always lean towards reliability, so I prefer the 4L80E for your application. It's easier to add power if necessary than it is to find reliability.

[madmax]

With the 4L80E, the trans tunnel needs to be dimpled for cooler line clearance (not a bad idea with the 4L60E either)
As for 4L60E vs 4L80E and 600Ft-Lbs of torque, your output is borderline. It depends on what you value more: reliability or performance.

A well built 4L60E can handle the abuse, but the 4L80E will last longer by virtue of more heavy duty internals. But the heavy duty internals of the 4L80E are uhh, heavy resultinng in greater parasitic loss.

I always lean towards reliability, so I prefer the 4L80E for your application. It's easier to add power if necessary than it is to find reliability.

Thanks Steve, you are the auto tranny man! I may go with the 4L60E just because it is about $1000 less for a built one. I've already gone past my budget in a few areas and I don't think I can take another 1K hit.

Do you have any recomendations for a good, cheap 4L60E builder?

Thanks,
Max

[Steve Chryssos]

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L60E.htm

Take some time and read this PATC page in its entirety--including the description of HP parts at the bottom. The descriptions are very thorough. By the end of the page, you will know what parts make up a high performance transmission. From there, you may want to compare features and parts with other sources (Hughes, TCI, B&M, Phoenix, etc). See how the other guys stack up.

The PATC guys have the right specs, But I have not used their transmissions. I like to recommend parts that I have actually used. I've run B&M and TCI transmissions with good results. But at 650HP, I'd be very picky. PATC sells direct so they offer more trick parts and maybe a lower price.

[alky]

Hey, Guys
I also have a 1st gen camaro (1969) and have a 4L80E, precision ind. coverter, and TCI controller.
What my question is, what to do for the crossmember mounting?
How are you doing it?

My reason for going with the 4L80E is my twin turbo sbc.

Thanks
Denny

[Steve Chryssos]

Sorry, I have a 4L60E and an aftermarket subframe. Measuring my own car will be of no use to you. As far as I know, you will have to make your own crossmember for a 4L80E. We should be doing a 4L80E swap on a friend's 68 Camaro if the sale goes thru, but that could take a few months. If you are short on time it shouldn't be too hard:
-Install engine and transmission with trans mount.
-Now would be a good time to make clearance for the oil cooler lines/fittings. (with a ball peen hammer)
-Finalize driveshaft/pinion angle.
-Determine front to rear offset from subframe mounting holes to trans mount.
-Measure vertical offset between trans mount and subframe
-Add a small amount of vertical clearance to allow for shims (washers) between trans mount and crossmember. This will help you fine tune pinion angle during the finnal assembly.
-Slot trans mount holes in crossmember front to rear
-Slot crossmember to subframe holes side to side.
-The hardest part of the design may be compensating for exhaust pipes if necessary.

Take plans to a local fabricator or email them to me and I'll make something up. Like I said, if you have some time to wait, I'll be following the same procedure myself soon--behind a GEN1 small block.

[myclone]

But the heavy duty internals of the 4L80E are uhh, heavy resultinng in greater parasitic loss.

You wouldnt mind sharing any thoughts if youve actually measured the diff in drag on the 700/60E vs the 80E would you? Reason I ask is that the first syclone that was retrofitted with the 80E actually went faster in the quarter mile by 4 or 5 tenths and the MPH went up 2 or 3 mph with no other changes. Kinda has all of us syty ppl scratching our heads since we were expecting it to slow down slightly due to parasitic drag but now we're not sure if its due to the better 1st gear ratio or what. Turbo motors like being loaded so the higher 1st in the 80E may be the culprit but like I said we're looking for info to help pin down why the truck went faster with a heavier/more parasitic drag trans.

TIA

[Steve Chryssos]

Measured no. Thoughts, yes. I have witnessed the opposite scenario to your TT dragstrip test. 4L60E vs 4L80E both run on a test bench driven by a small factory stock, low hp ford V6 and a coupler. Curious about the whole parasitic loss issue, I asked if the 4L80E required more HP to "spin". The answer was yes and a demonstration followed. The distinction was minor for sure but present.

That's all I've got.

4 or 5 tenths!!? Wow!. I can only guess that a variation between calibrations existed. Less shift time with the 4L80E? Less slippage, too? Plus converter size plays a big factor for sure (both multiplication and parasitic loss). But still, 4 or 5 tenths is hard to explain--especially if you ADD in the added weight and parasitic loss.

As far as I'm concerned, the parasitic loss/weight issue is overblown. Even the cost issue can be negated. A TRUE "bulletproof" 600-650Ft-Lb capacity 4L60E should run close to $3K.
And the 4L80E has three speed input sensors (rpm, converter and VSS) while the 4L60E has only two (rpm and VSS). Throw in the 4L80E's better 1st gear ratio and given a choice, I'll take a 4L80E every time.

[madmax]

Thanks Steve. Informative as usual.

[my72vette454]

I am going to build a 4L80E this winter for my vette, after I built a twin turbo 468 bbc I have found the next weak link...my old 4 speed went clank, bang yesterday, was doing about 70 in third gear with 12 lbs boost and now I dont have anything but 4th gear....lol. Looking foreward to the paddle shifter!!

Mike

[Steve Chryssos]

Cool.

[EFI69Cam]

Hey, Guys
I also have a 1st gen camaro (1969) and have a 4L80E, precision ind. coverter, and TCI controller.
What my question is, what to do for the crossmember mounting?
How are you doing it?

My reason for going with the 4L80E is my twin turbo sbc.

Thanks
Denny

I used a th400 crossmember, moved back about 2".

[alky]

Thanks for the info guys. I happen to have a brand new th400 crossmember that I was gonna try to use.

denny

[bigtyme1]

With the 4L80E, the trans tunnel needs to be dimpled for cooler line clearance (not a bad idea with the 4L60E either)
As for 4L60E vs 4L80E and 600Ft-Lbs of torque, your output is borderline. It depends on what you value more: reliability or performance.

A well built 4L60E can handle the abuse, but the 4L80E will last longer by virtue of more heavy duty internals. But the heavy duty internals of the 4L80E are uhh, heavy resultinng in greater parasitic loss.

I always lean towards reliability, so I prefer the 4L80E for your application. It's easier to add power if necessary than it is to find reliability.

Steve, where about does the tunner have to be dimpled and how much? I'm doing the same thing to a 69 Rag Top.

[Karch]

You wouldnt mind sharing any thoughts if youve actually measured the diff in drag on the 700/60E vs the 80E would you? Reason I ask is that the first syclone that was retrofitted with the 80E actually went faster in the quarter mile by 4 or 5 tenths and the MPH went up 2 or 3 mph with no other changes. Kinda has all of us syty ppl scratching our heads since we were expecting it to slow down slightly due to parasitic drag but now we're not sure if its due to the better 1st gear ratio or what. Turbo motors like being loaded so the higher 1st in the 80E may be the culprit but like I said we're looking for info to help pin down why the truck went faster with a heavier/more parasitic drag trans.

TIA

I'm sure the turbo's like to be spooled up. How about with the tighter gear splits? Maybe it's due to the fact they can stay spooled up better without the big drop into second?

Just a thought, as I have zero experience with boosted applications...thus far.