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  1. #1
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    SCCA is considering adding Pro Touring classes.

    I’ve come to learn that the SCCA national office is looking into adding classes for pro-touring cars. One of my good friends is currently employed by the SCCA as a consultant and his job is to come up with suggestions on how to strengthen SCCA’s Solo (autocross) program both at a national level but more importantly how to help the regions strengthen their programs. The region I’m involved with has a local class just for PT cars based on Goodguy’s Rod & Custom rules and it’s working reasonably well though not entirely as expected. It was also added as a supplemental class at the SCCA National Match Tour event at Grissom. Right now it’s become a good class for guys with late model American muscle cars on street tires who are really mis-classed under current SCCA Solo rules. What it hasn’t done so far is attract any actual pro-touring cars. We’ve had a few PT cars show up for our first test and tune this year and had one show up at our drag/cross event.
    So, what would attract you to our events? What can I suggest to my friend that he can take to SCCA? What would you like to see? What turns you off?

    Dave Dusterberg
    http://www.facebook.com/camchallengeeast
    1979 Aspen R/T (under construction soon to be #19 CAM/T)
    2002 Ram 1500 SLT
    2005 Magnum R/T
    2005 Mustang GT #19 CAM/C


  2. #2
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    I don't need to be attracted...as I'm already regularly attending SCCA autocrosses in my outmatched pro-touringish car. I run in Street Modified mainly because of my engine swap, which pits me against mostly Evos if anything at all in our Region, and SM's PAX sucks as well when compared to the rest of the cars in the events. The thought of an actual pro-touring class that pits me directly against other cars like mine would be great. I'm curious what the rule set is that your local Region uses for it's PT cars? Is there a year model restriction? Full interiors required? Street tires (200TW)? etc etc? What PAX Quantifier do your PT cars get if any?

    I'd like to see it be street legal body on frame cars, rear wheel drive, full interiors, any model year, manufacturer specific engine and trans (GM car needs a GM engine and trans), and similar suspensions but different mounting points allowed (live rear axle remains live rear axle).

    We've had a few "muscle cars" come out in the last year, but usually only for an event or two, then they disappear again. I'm certain not having anything else to run against is a drawback as well as not running as well as they would have liked. Maybe if they'd have something else to run competitively against, they'd stick around long enough to make their cars better and have more fun trying to beat the next guy instead of just wearing out tires racing against a clock with nothing to compare it too.

    Lance
    KC Region SCCA Solo Regular
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  3. #3
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    We get 4 (real 1960s) pro touring cars consistently at San Diego events, with another 4 that show up occasionally. I have been bringing my 1969 Barracuda to practices but my 2013 Mustang to championships, just so I can run in ESP legally and have a chance to trophy. Id rather autocross the Cuda, but the Ford rear end and later model 360 make it illegal for ESP. I do think a pro-touring class would help, as knowing one of us four real PT guys would trophy should make it more fun. I do think to attract more 60s and 70s cars you might need two different pro touring classes, maybe one for 1978 and earlier only with some sort of limit to mods, and another "unlimited" class where the late model muscle can battle the $150k 69 Camaros...

    1973 Corvette Factory Primer Car
    1969 Barracuda Convertible
    1967 Plymouth Valiant

  4. #4
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    I am in.. was considering NASA but prefer SCCA...
    From a place you will not see comes a sound you will not hear....

    67 Camaro In progress

    https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...-Tap-67-camaro

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
    I don't need to be attracted...as I'm already regularly attending SCCA autocrosses in my outmatched pro-touringish car. I run in Street Modified mainly because of my engine swap, which pits me against mostly Evos if anything at all in our Region, and SM's PAX sucks as well when compared to the rest of the cars in the events. The thought of an actual pro-touring class that pits me directly against other cars like mine would be great. I'm curious what the rule set is that your local Region uses for it's PT cars? Is there a year model restriction? Full interiors required? Street tires (200TW)? etc etc? What PAX Quantifier do your PT cars get if any?

    I'd like to see it be street legal body on frame cars, rear wheel drive, full interiors, any model year, manufacturer specific engine and trans (GM car needs a GM engine and trans), and similar suspensions but different mounting points allowed (live rear axle remains live rear axle).

    We've had a few "muscle cars" come out in the last year, but usually only for an event or two, then they disappear again. I'm certain not having anything else to run against is a drawback as well as not running as well as they would have liked. Maybe if they'd have something else to run competitively against, they'd stick around long enough to make their cars better and have more fun trying to beat the next guy instead of just wearing out tires racing against a clock with nothing to compare it too.

    Lance
    KC Region SCCA Solo Regular
    Here's the rules I put together for our region. I mostly copied and pasted Goodguy's rules and made minor tweeks.

    2013 IndySCCA Street Machine / Street Rod / Trick Truck rules
    All SCCA Solo rules are in effect except as explained below:
    1. Open to rear wheel drive and all -wheel drive cars and trucks manufactured in the Americas.
    2. DOT tires and tread wear will be limited to 200 minimum.
    3. Must have all lug nuts on each wheel and must remove hub caps during runs if equipped.
    4. Wheel bearings must have no play.
    5. batteries must be mounted securely by mechanical fastener to the body or chassis.
    6. Overflow catch can on the radiator is mandatory.
    7. All hoses must be in good condition with no cracks, swelling, deterioration or leaks.
    8. Brake pedal must have good resistance and not go to the floor.
    9. All wheels must have working brakes of at least 50% of original thickness and fluid must be full with no leaks.
    10. Steering column must be tight and secured no binding or looseness.
    11. Seats must be mounted secure to body or chassis.
    12. Seat belts must be a minimum of a lap belt and secured to the body, bar, seat anchor bolt or frame for both driver and passenger.
    13. Gas cap or tank vent must not leak on the track and tank must be securely mounted.
    14. Exhaust must exit outside of the body or behind driver and securely installed. Mufflers are required with no open exhaust or open headers allowed.
    15. All entries will have all body panels of such vehicle. (Fenders, doors, hood, deck lid and bed sides on trucks) body must be within 10% of original production. (Hot rod & Truck class have exception in rules)
    16. Must have front and rear glass or lexan and side windows must be rolled down during run times.
    17. Throttle must have a return spring with no binding.
    18. No leaks under vehicle.
    19. All entries must be street licensed, insured, and street legal.
    20. All passengers must be 12 or older. All competitors and passengers must sign an event waiver. All minors must have filled out a minor waiver signed by both parents or guardians.
    21. Driver must have a state issued license.
    22. All loose items must be removed from the vehicle. Including floor mats.
    23. Helmets must be worn. Helmets must meet SNELL M2000 or newer minimum.
    24. No unsafe driving will be tolerated.
    25. No burnouts.
    26. Smoking is not permitted in the pits, grid area or inside the racing area at any time.
    27. Cone penalty is 2 seconds added to your time.
    28. Not stopping at the stop sign is a DNF for that run.
    29. All Street Rod (SR) and Trick Truck (TT) will be approved on a case by case basis. We reserve the right to refuse any entry for any reason.


    Street Machine Class: (SMC)
    • All vehicles must be 1955 and newer in appearance, representing a production car.
    Hot Rod Class: (SR)
    • All vehicles must be 1954 or older cars in appearance, no trucks, deliveries or panels allowed in this class.
    • High-Boys and Roadsters are not required to run fenders or hood sides.

    Truck Class: (TT)
    • Any vehicle with a Bed, Panel trucks, Deliveries, El Caminos and Rancheros will be in this class.
    • 1940 and older trucks are not required to run fenders or hood sides.
    • Fuel tanks do NOT have to be in stock location but must be securely mounted.
    • All truck entries will be determined on a case by case basis. No high center of gravity vehicles.
    Dave Dusterberg
    http://www.facebook.com/camchallengeeast
    1979 Aspen R/T (under construction soon to be #19 CAM/T)
    2002 Ram 1500 SLT
    2005 Magnum R/T
    2005 Mustang GT #19 CAM/C

  6. #6
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    Love it. If this happens, I will AutoX with my local SCCA club.

  7. #7
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    I agree with Tom. I don't really want to see a lot of strict rules. pro-touring cars a different and custom by design and an entire rule book would make them more of a spec class. Aftermarket subframes might be the only sperator I would use if you had enough cars show up to make two classes.

  8. #8
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    very cool...mite make me get into the SCCA part more if they do..
    1971 Chevrolet Camaro RS-Detroit Speed Equipped
    1966 Chevrolet C-10-Driver/Project truck

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    Love it. If this happens, I will AutoX with my local SCCA club.
    I agree Ron!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryce View Post
    I agree with Tom. I don't really want to see a lot of strict rules. pro-touring cars a different and custom by design and an entire rule book would make them more of a spec class. Aftermarket subframes might be the only sperator I would use if you had enough cars show up to make two classes.
    Bryce's main point hit it on the head. The system, in and of itself, is not made for PT. PT is an expression of design, taste/personal preference and (at what) level of desire to compete. Our cars are not rules based whereas the the SCCA rule class book is.

    All respect to George (I think that's his name) in the San Diego SCCA thread, but his comments about who fits where makes my head spin. Clearly delineates the difference between the SCCA and followers of this genre of cars.

    I do like the proposed rule alignment with Good Guys abpve.
    Oh and Bryce I don't think custom subs require a different class at this point. JMHO
    Ron in SoCal
    69 Camaro in progress
    http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=31246

    Used to be known as flash911

  10. #10
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    That all looks pretty good. Would the scca put this in effect at all events or just regions that would ask? I know the knoxville region has sound restrictions as well which would be hard to meet even with mufflers and pipes all the way out the back. Per there sound meters.
    Dan
    1969 rs, bbc, tremec 600, 12 bolt, mini tubs, dse a-arms, springs, iforge wheels...

  11. #11
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    In the last SCCA national event here, the Texas Match Tour, there was a ProTouring class referencing the American Streetcar Series rules. I see that becoming the standard for our cars in the SCCA.
    Chris

    Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mincharlie View Post
    That all looks pretty good. Would the scca put this in effect at all events or just regions that would ask? I know the knoxville region has sound restrictions as well
    which would be hard to meet even with mufflers and pipes all the way out the back. Per there sound meters.
    My falcon is just under our sound limit of 93dB

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron.in.SoCal View Post
    I agree Ron!



    Bryce's main point hit it on the head. The system, in and of itself, is not made for PT. PT is an expression of design, taste/personal preference and (at what) level of desire to compete. Our cars are not rules based whereas the the SCCA rule class book is.

    All respect to George (I think that's his name) in the San Diego SCCA thread, but his comments about who fits where makes my head spin. Clearly delineates the difference between the SCCA and followers of this genre of cars.

    I do like the proposed rule alignment with Good Guys abpve.
    Oh and Bryce I don't think custom subs require a different class at this point. JMHO
    Thanks Ron, I only think the subframe rule should be there IF there are enough cars for two classes. Maybe over 12 cars that run in PT.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
    I don't need to be attracted...as I'm already regularly attending SCCA autocrosses in my outmatched pro-touringish car.
    Oh boy do I hear ya! For me it's worse... I've been stuck in CP hell. Any chance of being competitive in my class is a pure pipe dream as witnessed by my outstanding last place finish at Nat's last year.

    I'd like to see something about being street legal (or better yet licensed).
    Valerie Pichette

    1988 GTA LS3 (418 stroker)/ T56 - "DragonLady GTA"

  15. #15
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    Engine swap rules would hurt the class too.
    Stephen

  16. #16
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    For my part, I've made it clear that over-regulating the class would make it DOA. I'm pushing to not go beyond what our region is doing now (the rules listed above). Right now it's all just conversation between the national head of SCCA's Solo program and my friend who has been talking about our region's efforts and some of the early results we've had.

    To answer the question "Would the scca put this in effect at all events or just regions that would ask?" The regions are free to create any class they wish as long as it doesn't run afoul of SCCA safety rules. Since the national office has expressed an interest, the focus would be looking at adding a class to the National Solo rules book. Having it in the national rule book would provide a consistant set of rules.

    When we hosted the Match Tour earlier this year at Grissom, a PT class was added as a supplimental class and they used our rules for the class. I'm glad to see that they are giving the concept a try at more than one event.
    Dave Dusterberg
    http://www.facebook.com/camchallengeeast
    1979 Aspen R/T (under construction soon to be #19 CAM/T)
    2002 Ram 1500 SLT
    2005 Magnum R/T
    2005 Mustang GT #19 CAM/C

  17. #17
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    Problem I see is it still becomes check book racing, just like Good Guys. We did a Pro-Touring pilot in the SDR SCCA, and found it better to just fall in with SM, SU and ESP. Those classes suit the builds pretty well. Don't like your class because your super trick, whamperdyne suspension puts you in a competitive class? Then go spend 500.00 and put a 350 or a 289 back in it. While the Pro-Touring class is a great idea, I think most of us in San Diego came to the same conclusion, for it to remain fun and competitive, there would have to be no less than 3 classes created just to level playing fields. Fun part is, SCCA already has those classes. SU, SM, CP and ESP. I'd love to see it really flourish, but I don't see the participation or dedication making it happen. Our "social racing" events put on by optima, ASCS, Jet Hot, Hotchkis, DSE, and SoCal Challenge are the nitch, not the norm. SCCA is competition, and competition has to have strict rules. Otherwise the folks with the biggest wallet have the most fun.

  18. #18
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    Following what Dan wrote Just take SM and allow upper control arm drops 200 tread ware.do the same to ESP. Pick a cut off year or do something we though about .pic a year like 1976.but any car built on a platform same as 1976 like Camaros are allowed .It keeps Mustang Fox bodies out. Just ESP classed spoilers for areo and frame support in ESP and SM..anything more and your SU.

    Maybe just SU for the first year.

    Picking a cut off year is where people will start to ask .why not one more year so I'm in..

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM Racing View Post
    Problem I see is it still becomes check book racing, just like Good Guys. We did a Pro-Touring pilot in the SDR SCCA, and found it better to just fall in with SM, SU and ESP. Those classes suit the builds pretty well. Don't like your class because your super trick, whamperdyne suspension puts you in a competitive class? Then go spend 500.00 and put a 350 or a 289 back in it. While the Pro-Touring class is a great idea, I think most of us in San Diego came to the same conclusion, for it to remain fun and competitive, there would have to be no less than 3 classes created just to level playing fields. Fun part is, SCCA already has those classes. SU, SM, CP and ESP. I'd love to see it really flourish, but I don't see the participation or dedication making it happen. Our "social racing" events put on by optima, ASCS, Jet Hot, Hotchkis, DSE, and SoCal Challenge are the nitch, not the norm. SCCA is competition, and competition has to have strict rules. Otherwise the folks with the biggest wallet have the most fun.
    Dan, while us San Diego guys have adapted to SCCA classing (thanks really to George making us feel welcome) I do think we would attract even more pro-touring guys into our San Diego SCCA races if there was one (or two) classes called "PRO-TOURING". If for no other reason than what happened to Ron :


    Quote Originally Posted by Ron.in.SoCal View Post
    All respect to George (I think that's his name) in the San Diego SCCA thread, but his comments about who fits where makes my head spin. Clearly delineates the difference between the SCCA and followers of this genre of cars.
    JMHO
    Oh and Ron, I save alot of money using Georges class chats instead of a 6 pack to induce head spinning!

    1973 Corvette Factory Primer Car
    1969 Barracuda Convertible
    1967 Plymouth Valiant

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTM Racing View Post
    Problem I see is it still becomes check book racing, just like Good Guys. We did a Pro-Touring pilot in the SDR SCCA, and found it better to just fall in with SM, SU and ESP. Those classes suit the builds pretty well. Don't like your class because your super trick, whamperdyne suspension puts you in a competitive class? Then go spend 500.00 and put a 350 or a 289 back in it. While the Pro-Touring class is a great idea, I think most of us in San Diego came to the same conclusion, for it to remain fun and competitive, there would have to be no less than 3 classes created just to level playing fields. Fun part is, SCCA already has those classes. SU, SM, CP and ESP. I'd love to see it really flourish, but I don't see the participation or dedication making it happen. Our "social racing" events put on by optima, ASCS, Jet Hot, Hotchkis, DSE, and SoCal Challenge are the nitch, not the norm. SCCA is competition, and competition has to have strict rules. Otherwise the folks with the biggest wallet have the most fun.
    Above post makes a lot of sense really. We can't really expect the SCCA to change their long established racing class rules just to accommodate our niche builds. Just in the year or so I've been doing this, I've watch our local national champion caliber drivers switch cars and setups back and forth trying to find a car and setup they can exploit to win in a respective class. One has gone from a FSP Civic to a BSP Corvette to a rtfrtgs Celica (try making sense of that alphabet soup). There are lots of ways to fit in if you really want to.

    It seems a bit strange to me because in SM I can run R-comp slicks, but I can't change the pickup locations of my rear sway bar, but it is what it is. I just sign up, run and have fun. I don't try to beat them at their game, I'm just glad they let me come out and play with them 10-12 times a year at $35 a day.
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

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