67-69 Camaro thru 74 Nova Alignment spec's (from old site)

4propain
Registered User
Posts: 377
(8/2/04 9:42 pm)
Reply Need alignment specs.
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I need some alignment specs for a street/performance setup. Not to racy but not to tame. I know this all is changed by fractions of a degree. Im going to the shop sometime this week and need to know what to tell them.

This is with urethane bushings. No guldstrand mod yet. 72 Nova.


RACE FOR THE G'S WITH A QUICK HEEL-TOE!!

chicane67
Registered User
Posts: 194
(8/2/04 9:58 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: Need alignment specs.
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-1.5* camber
+2.5 caster L
+2.6 caster R
1/8" to 3/16 toe in to start with. Then graduate to 1/16 to an 1/8th toe out when you feel more comfortable.

I ran -1.8* camber with +2.6 caster and 1/8th toe out for a number of years with a 14x7 with a 245/60/14 front (@32 psi) and a 15x8 with a 255/50/15 rear (@28 psi) and front tire wear was NOT an issue.

4propain
Registered User
Posts: 381
(8/2/04 11:14 pm)
Reply Re: Need alignment specs.
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thank you


RACE FOR THE G'S WITH A QUICK HEEL-TOE!!

welterracer
Registered User
Posts: 178
(8/6/04 3:28 pm)
Reply Re: Need alignment specs.
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Being a alignment specialist for the last 8 years i would tell you to have 0 degree camber with no less than .50 neg camber.. other wise you will have excessive tire wear!

you will definitly want a half a degree caster split.. this helps with road crown!

and set toe to zero for the lest amount of drag.. with no more than a 1/8 total toe!

The original specs on the camber on these old cars was .5+ to 1 degree (WHY?) because the bearing were tapered bearing not roller bearing like the new untized bearing they use in all newer cars!

If you would want to talk more email me.. [email protected]

Brian

chicane67
Registered User
Posts: 201
(8/7/04 12:35 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: Need alignment specs.
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Excuse me ?

With zero initial camber, the suspension rolls into positive camber under compression......

There was and is a reason for Mr. Guldstrand to recommend initial alignment specifications for camber at 2 to 3 1/2* negative; caster at 3 to 5* positive and toe at 1/16 to 1/8 toe out......because of the stock suspension rolling positive under compression.

And BTW the "newer" bearings used are a tapered pair in a 'cartridge'......and both bearings are considered to be of the "roller type". The ball roller bearings that you are talking about are not all that good with handling side thrust and lateral loads.....that is why the "cartridge bearing" that is used in late model cars is constructed of a pair of tapered rollers.

Get away from what the books say Brian, and step into the year of 2004. After 8 years, I expect more from you.

ddennis68
Registered User
Posts: 326
(8/7/04 1:14 pm)
Reply Re: Need alignment specs.
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Brian, I got you beat by a decade or so and I am going to agree with Tom. This is not a "soccer mom minivan". Even tire wear is not the primary goal here and they will be torn off before worn out anyway. The specs called out 30 years ago had nothing to do with bearings, it was the parts (including tires) and engineering technology of the day.

My Elco specs: -.75 camber both wheels
3.00 caster (slight lead to the left)
1/4" toe-in total
My tires are at 3-4/32 on the outside shoulder when the inside shoulder is bald. I can live with that for the HUGE increase in handling characteristics
Dennis-

check out progress of Bondobucket

welterracer
Registered User
Posts: 179
(8/9/04 6:38 am)
Reply Re: Need alignment specs.
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WELL EXCUSE ME!!

MY alignment teacher (an editor for hemming motor news) told me that about the bearings (not that i truly agreed with him) But he is the pro not me!! He has wrote two books on the subject!

The guy asked for a performace alignment setting not ROAD RACE track alignment setting!

I work at a Goodyear dealership and am know as the best in town!! I fix what the other guys couldnt! I take great pride in this!!

I deal with normal cars all day long NOT RACE cars! The guy that asked for specs for his car surely doesnt have a race car to my knowledge!! IF HE DOES I APPOLIGIES!

If it were me i would set the camber at 0 and toe at 0.. that way the normal driver who thinks he is mario andretti, still doesnt destroy his tires just driving around town!

Rick Dorion
Registered User
Posts: 631
(8/9/04 7:11 am)
Reply toe-out
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Hi, Tom. Would you elaborate some more on toe-in vs. toe-out benefits? I'm currently running your first recommendation and would like to understand more about going to toe-out. Thanks!

chicane67
Registered User
Posts: 212
(8/9/04 2:58 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: toe-out
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~Brian. One word..............Prozac. Even guys who are editors for Hemming Motor News and write books, sometimes don't know everything they think they do. No reason to get all defensive, you just have not been educated on the older technology......which IS far different than what you deal with everyday.

You are correct, he did request specifications for a performance alignment......and that was provided. But this is no where close to a 'road race' set up.

I appreciate your sense of pride in the work that you do. I too am one known for doing what has been said, that could not be done. I myself have had the great opportunity to work for and learn from the 1st Generation F-Body Godfather and my alignment teacher, Mr **** Guldstrand.

The specifications that I offered were and ARE daily driven street car alignment recommendations. Not race car chassis alignment specifications. This is what your late model books and Laser alignment machines don't and cant tell you. All they know is what is programmed into them....and all that would be is for factory recommended specifications from 35 year old tire and alignment technology.

As stated before, I have set up many chassis' to run -1.8 camber, with 3*+ of caster and a toe setting between 3/16 toe-in to 3/16 toe-out on daily driven street cars with little to no tire wear problems on a wheel and tire package with a taller sidewall. Now if the individual was running 17 or 18 inch wheels and tires......that would be different. Old, stock, unmodified cars DO NOT have the geometry characteristics that you deal with EVERYDAY and they have to handled differently than what you have been taught.

~Rick. The toe setting at this point, the initial set-up, is basically set for the chassis to under-steer. This allows the driver to maintain some level of control and keeps everything safe. When a driver becomes more aware of how the inputs effect the chassis, he then increases his known set of driving skills. At this time, one can move toward an increased toe out setting until the driver feels that the chassis is set-up to a neutral state for his/her driving style. The adjustment of toe has the greatest effect on 'turn in' when dealing with related skid pad numbers (which everyone is so critical of). It's setting pretty much is one of the largest determining factors for creating maximum handling in a neutral state, steady turn.

There are really two effects that are of concern when the topic is relative to toe settings. Bump steer and ackerman angle with toe settings. As it is unfortunate that we have and also know that the 1st Gen has problems with bump steer, it can be exaggerated when we lower the chassis. The more toe, in one direction or the other, along with the associated exaggeration shows more of the big picture. Secondly, it can also be a problem when associated with the ackerman angle built into the front geometry.

The first problem is pretty easy to understand. Bump steer is caused by a dissimilarity in geometry between the tie-rod and the upper control arm. When we lower the front end of a stock, non-modified chassis in this example, this problem tends to be exaggerated from the path being in an exponential increase of the swung curve. We either help with an increase in positive caster and/or relocation of the tie rod to maintain parallel paths for the wheel center and the outer tie-rod. Rather than go into a long dissertation I will refer you to this link where you will find these interrelated phenomena explained in non-engineering speak.

Now, ackerman angle. It is not discussed very much but is influenced by and with toe change. This link has one of the more simple and easiest to visualize definitions for the ackerman effect in a steering system and should be read after reading the above link to get a better understanding of this.

In the end, the product of all of this can induce snap under-steer or over-steer and the latter of the two can be dangerous. Understanding what toe change is, can help you sort out your chassis to your driving style and can also be helpful in setting the chassis to main more even tire temperatures, which translates to proper tire loading and tire wear on the street everyday and at the track.

In simple terms:

Toe in = understeer aka 'tight'
Toe out = oversteer aka 'loose'

"Loose is fast and on the verge of 'out of control'"



Edited by: chicane67 at: 8/9/04 5:29 pm

Rick Dorion
Registered User
Posts: 632
(8/9/04 4:33 pm)
Reply Thanks, Tom
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Wow. Great insight. Thanks, Tom.

streetk14
Registered User
Posts: 12
(8/10/04 5:51 pm)
Reply Re: Thanks, Tom
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I agree with you completely, chicane67. Working on new cars for a living (like I do) and working on old hot rods/muscle cars (which I also do) are two different worlds. I think someone already mentioned the positive camber gain situation that effects 1st gen Camaros. Just for anybody reading this who doesn't already know, this means that the front tire leans onto the outer edge when negotiating a fast corner. This is why the guys have recommended a negative camber setting. a 0 setting will wear the outer edge of the tires badly. This is also the reason that companies are making parts to minimize this camber gain. I have been running global west a arms with almost 1.5 deg. negative camber, and my tire wear is very even. But anyways, here are the specs recommended by global west for a mild street performance setup:
2/2.5 deg. positive camber
1/2 to 3/4 deg. negative camber
Toe in 3/32 total

streetk14
Registered User
Posts: 13
(8/10/04 6:02 pm)
Reply Re: Thanks, Tom
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sorry, that was supposed to 2/2.5 deg positive caster

DLinson
Registered User
Posts: 92
(8/10/04 6:06 pm)
Reply alignment specs
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I'm a Mechanical Engineer for Hunter Engineering, we design and build the wheel alignment equipment. Yes, the computer has alignment specs provided to us from the manufacturer for every car. We can not provide deviate from those or we could be buying lots of tires.

What was said about the positive camber and the bearing loads. They do use a pair of taper roller bearings but on the older cars with a smaller outer bearing and larger inner bearing, the positive camber transfers more load to the inner larger bearing. The new bearing packs contain two larger taper roller bearings. Both of which are much larger than those used in the older cars. They have to be because it is a live spindle design. The inner race is moving on the new cars were the outer race is moving on the older cars. Winston cup cars use a live spindle design in order to get the benefits of the larger bearings in relatively the same package size.

In alignment classes that we teach, they recomend never using a negative toe setting because it is considered unstable, more twitchy. When it comes to autocrossing though, a little toe out is good. Our alignment equipment specs are created by the manufacture for the intent of maximum tire wear.

There is a new feature for our equipment that will come out some time next year that will take a tech through a procedure to take tire temperatures during a test drive and then modify the specs accordingly. This would probably be the better way to do it. If you have a pyrometer, take the car out to you favorite streach of road and drive it like you normally do. Then take some tire temps. Record the inner, center, and outter temps. If the outter is higher than the inner, add more negative camber. Through testing it looks like about a 15* temp range is equal to 2* of camber. If the center is higher then the tire pressure is too high. The toe setting doesn't effect tire temperatures noticable.

If you intend to autocross a lot, take the car to an autocross and check your temps after a run.

If you do a google search on tire temperature testing that should yeild plenty of sites that go into it more in depth.

Dennis Linson

chicane67
Registered User
Posts: 213
(8/10/04 10:29 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: alignment specs
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Outstanding input Dennis.

Good to see you jumping in the threads and passing on some good tech. Its also nice to see, or more to the point read, that your product is going to have some really cool added features here in the near future. Tire temperature is realworld, realtime !! And when understood, is the best tuning 'tool' that one could have.

Hey do you guys have any wheel adapters for magnetic camb/cast guages with a reach of 15 to..... 18 or 19 inches ??

DLinson
Registered User
Posts: 93
(8/11/04 2:27 pm)
Reply Alignment angles
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While we have wheel adapters that will handle wheels from 10" to 24", they are only for our sensors. The wheel adapters also have runout in them versus the spindle centerline. If you are just using the camber caster gage to make an incramental adjustment, you could make an adapter plate on a .591 diamerter shaft and put that into the wheel adapter. Then put the mangetic gage onto that plate. You could use it to get a real camber value if compensate for the runout. The adapters list for about $298 each so it's not the most cost effective approach. If you would like more info you can e-mail me at [email protected]. My main responsibility here is to design wheel adapters and associated hardware.

Thanks,
Dennis Linson

PS. most of our sales guys don't know about this new feature yet but they will in about 2 months.

Also the above tire temp ranges were taken using a Ford Focus that was lowered 2 inches with H&H Springs and Struts using both Yokahama Parada tires and Kumo Road racing DOT legal radials. Temps didn't very much between the Parada's and the Kumo R compound tires. Most of the testing was done on the highway. Again we are in the business of max tire life.

chicane67
Registered User
Posts: 214
(8/11/04 8:25 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: Alignment angles
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Cost effective !?!! Man.....Snap-On's version was sold as a set for $1100.00. I think $298 is a steal for having most of the work done for me.

But I do like the shaft/adapter idea. I drop you an e-mail.

Thanks Dennis.