Which System for budget

I am fully aware that fuel injection is no cheap affair, or simple, or easy. But I do know it's worth it, especially since i plan on driving my car daily in the summer.
I'm just building a mild 318 mopar, and I'm planning everything out, trying to figure out what areas of the build I'm going to cheap out on, and which ones to splurge. I plan on going much more aggressive in the future, maybe twin turbos as next summer's project?

I have a bit of a thing for Big Stuff 3 's setup. I like all that it comes with what it can do, and what it has done for other cars. But it is at the high end of the spectrum for price

Accel Gen VII is next down in price. I've heard it can do a lot and i'd probably be happy with it.

The third system I came across is the Haltech E6X, which controls fuel and spark, but only has 4 injector drivers, I'm not sure how I feel about throwing fuel away, but maybe I have it wrong and that doesn't happen.

Considering that (on the site i'm looking at ) big stuff is 2 grand, accel is 1600, and Haltech E6X is 1200. and that's not even including fuel system, or the rest of the ignition, it makes it a tough choice for me.

There are other setups out there, but Big stuff is pretty much my ceiling so i'm not mentioning anything higher in price than that, and I'm really not interested in things like megasquirt.

If there are setups you might think match my constraints better, or you have recommendations and/or opinions on these, please any and all help will be very much appreciated.

Thank you in advance.
Dan:cheers::help!:

anyone? anyone have experience with edelbrock performer pro-flo systems? they make a kid for SB mopars, which is a plus. comes with ignition fuel system and everything for 2 grand,. it seems like it sacrifices a lot? opinions?

Have you looked at MegaSquirt?

I'd rather not deal with open source software for this. thats why i siad i wasn't interested in megaquirt.

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Originally Posted by dannyho

I'd rather not deal with open source software for this. thats why i siad i wasn't interested in megaquirt.

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Pardon me for not reading down to the last line of the seventh paragraph of your post. I saw budget and thought "MegaSquirt."

No such thing as a budget system that will allow the upgrade to big power later...unless you rethink your interest in Megasquirt.

You could find a factory FI type intake to fit your motor, and use the Haltech(i'm putting one on my GM Ecotec turbo'd sandrail). But for budget the Mega is it, and there is tons of tech, info and help for it online.

EDIT : just thought of something. A few years back I remember reading about a guy who used the EEC IV setup from a late model mustang, and adapted it to a Mopar. A harness from Painless and a used computer, aqnd then have a custom chip burned for it should do thetrick. Just would need to find a throttle body to intake adapter and pick up the injector bungs and rails from Summit or Jegs.

well by budget i mean less than 3 grand. which is doable, I have the ability to move money around, anyways I've since realized i don't need to care about fully sequential injection, and after going through the manual for the e6x, i think that's what i'll go with. I'll have to live without a wideband option

I'm also planning on trading a lot of money for time. ie i'm willing and able to do a lot fo fabrication, so even the intake isnt a concern to me. its the places in the build where i can't compromise without facing a serious consequence, such as the computer

probably closer to 2 grand. but why would you respond to a post without reading all of it?

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Originally Posted by dannyho

probably closer to 2 grand. but why would you respond to a post without reading all of it?

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Not looking for much help, huh? :ssst: He said why he responded which made sense. It's easy to skim through a long post and still try to help.

Jody

i had a long day at work, and made that post a bit hastily. but it seems that everytime i ask a question on this forum for every one person who answers knowledgeably there 4 that do the opposite. not wanting to get personal, I know every answer is meant to help. but i wouldnt have mentioned a system if it wasnt within my budget, and just because i'm looking to save money does not mean i'd want to got the cheapest way possible.

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Originally Posted by dannyho

i had a long day at work, and made that post a bit hastily. but it seems that everytime i ask a question on this forum for every one person who answers knowledgeably there 4 that do the opposite. not wanting to get personal, I know every answer is meant to help. but i wouldnt have mentioned a system if it wasnt within my budget, and just because i'm looking to save money does not mean i'd want to got the cheapest way possible.

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Gotcha. Edelbrocks system works fine on milder builds but is severely limited on big HP setups; don't think it can even run forced induction, at least the older one couldn't.

Not familiar who offers what for Mopars, but generally the Accel and Holley systems are the best bang for the buck. However, I prefer FAST and Big Stuff 3 as they are more adaptable and better resolution in my opinion. But you've got to figure $4K or so on either as they don't have complete systems, you have to piece them together.

If you do get a system (assuming Holley or Accel has one for Mopars) you'll be replacing the injectors and fuel pump when you go forced induction. I would get ahold of Frank at http://www.gpsuperstore.com to see who has what. He also has very good pricing on several systems.

Jody

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Originally Posted by dannyho

i had a long day at work, and made that post a bit hastily. but it seems that everytime i ask a question on this forum for every one person who answers knowledgeably there 4 that do the opposite. not wanting to get personal, I know every answer is meant to help. but i wouldnt have mentioned a system if it wasnt within my budget, and just because i'm looking to save money does not mean i'd want to got the cheapest way possible.

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I'm actually a bit offended by this, and I normally try to keep some sense of perspective on these boards. I'll try not to respond to any of your future posts so as not to waste your valuable time. Good luck with your project.

I would rethink living without a wide-band. I think you'll find you need one anyway and you can adapt less expensive versions to the Accel Gen 7 and probably to the other systems. I'm running Gen 7 but don't have it completely tuned yet. It has many more tuning parameters than most systems and some folks find this handy and others find it aggravating (too much to deal with). Accel's tech help has been okay, but don't expect to get them on the phone in an instant. From what I've seen, the FAST XFI is a slightly better system for a little less and probably with better tech support. And while you're budgeting, make sure to consider your fuel system and all the necessary fittings etc... It adds up quick.

The Edelbrock system is way too limited for the money it costs and you need to have them burn a chip everytime you make a major mod. Completely contrary to what aftermarket DFI should be all about. The other systems have their markets IMO, including Megasquirt and are priced for roughly what you get.

Hope you find this useful.

Thanks Jody. As Jody says, we can save you some money on a FAST XFI set up. I agree with others, living without wide band, when you can have wide band so easy, would be a bad decision. I have experimented with some less sophisticated systems, thinking I did not need all the bells and whistles. You talk about trading time for dollars, you will do that if you go with a entry level system and go turbos!

well you can adapt a wide band sensor to the haltech too, as it turns out, and haltech is coming out with their own kit, so that leaves it open on a "future upgrade" level. Its not sequential, its semi sequential, but that's ok

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Originally Posted by TurboLark

EDIT : just thought of something. A few years back I remember reading about a guy who used the EEC IV setup from a late model mustang, and adapted it to a Mopar. A harness from Painless and a used computer, aqnd then have a custom chip burned for it should do thetrick. Just would need to find a throttle body to intake adapter and pick up the injector bungs and rails from Summit or Jegs.

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I have done my fair share of research on this set up - the only downside it the fact it is a MAF system... (I dont have good luck with MAF sensors) - the plus ? large aftermarket and no tuning required (MAF does the calculations for you) the negative ? MAF sensors are extremely fragile - and you have to run that god aweful looking intake piping.... unless you went with a MAF sensor that somehow mounts over a universal 4bbl throttle body (my plan) -- I am still figuring all this out - as far as connections go - I have 4 of the factory ford connections which i have no clue what to do with (most likely can simply be omitted) -- but i have yet to find anybody knowledgable enough to answer my questions. long process but when i know i'll post the info about it...

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Originally Posted by Rolling_Thunder

I have done my fair share of research on this set up - the only downside it the fact it is a MAF system... (I dont have good luck with MAF sensors) - the plus ? large aftermarket and no tuning required (MAF does the calculations for you) the negative ? MAF sensors are extremely fragile - and you have to run that god aweful looking intake piping.... unless you went with a MAF sensor that somehow mounts over a universal 4bbl throttle body (my plan) -- I am still figuring all this out - as far as connections go - I have 4 of the factory ford connections which i have no clue what to do with (most likely can simply be omitted) -- but i have yet to find anybody knowledgable enough to answer my questions. long process but when i know i'll post the info about it...

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You still have to tune maf systems; either that or I'm doing something wrong with my Lightning and 05 GTO! :rolleyes:

Jody

Check out this system from Promax. I started the post about the Mega Squirt system which this system uses. I'm not well versed in fuel injection and this looked like a nice alternative for us brand X folks.

Here's a link to the flyer.

http://promaxcarbs.bizland.com/EFIflyer.pdf

Hey guys.
Regarding the edelbrock system.....
If I'm only ever going to run a stock ZZ4 will I care about the lack of options in the pro flo?

I've never used them so I can't say for sure, but those throttle bodies look like a nightmare as far as fuel puddling is concerned. At least TBI injects above the throttle plate, so that as the fuel goes aorund the throttle plate the turbulence and shear breaks up the droplets...these look like they'll just form a pool of fuel at the bottom of the plenum. Idle tuning could be difficult

Qft

I'm really enjoying the Holley 950 Pro package. I have about $2900 into it which includes:

- Really nice V8 MPFI manifold (designed by Cutler Injection)
- ECU that has a good selection of base maps and controls 8 hi-impedance injectors (which are available with the kit up to 50lb/hr, or aftermarket up to 83lb/hr) and most common igniton systems
- Wideband O2 sensor and controller, interfaced to the software
- Gorgeous 4bbl air door with TPS and Idle Air Controller that accepts Holley 4150-sized air cleaners
- Wiring harness
- Fuel pump, 2 fuel filters (pre-pump and post-pump) and fittings
- Fuel rails and crossover fittings
- Reasonably easy software interface
- 8 Delphi injectors of your choice between 24 and 50lb/hr
- Well written instruction book
- A knowledgable installed base, with a Holley Engineer as the EFI moderator over on Chevytalk.com (Doug Flynn)
- Knock sensor capabilities
- Interface to all common ignition triggers
- Temp based fan controls
- 2 programmable inputs
- 2 programmable outputs (although is consumed if you use it to control the fan), that can be triggered by MAP, RPM, TEMP, etc.
- 2 Aux +5V inputs that can be datalogged
- Internal Datalog

It can handle boost, with a simple MAP sensor change, up to 30#.

You can get the package pretty much any way you want it - without the manifold, just the ECM, ECM and wiring harness, etc. Summit has the best prices that I've found.

Mine's performing very well on my blown 383. I'm running 8 72-pound injectors and getting around 740HP at the crank.

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html

I plan to use the Innovate Wideband setup for my Haltech e6x. Once I'm tuned I wont need it very often.

That's the basic gist I've gotten from looking around. A wideband doesn't make sense to use in closed loop. For tuning it's great, but it seems that they're just too expensive to have to replace. Let me know how your setup comes out when you're done.

see below

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Originally Posted by dannyho

That's the basic gist I've gotten from looking around. A wideband doesn't make sense to use in closed loop. For tuning it's great, but it seems that they're just too expensive to have to replace. Let me know how your setup comes out when you're done.

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First off, many of the aftermarket systems like FAST and BS3 can be closed loop all of the time, including wot. That's a huge advantage especially in forced induction as you can set the a/f to say 12:1 at wot and as long as the fuel mapping is within the range of the computer (up to 25% usually) it can add/subtract fuel to maintain your desired a/f. If you're a bit lean the computer will add it back in automatically.

Even on a naturally aspirated car I only tune with a wideband as a normal O2 is not accurate away from 14.7:1. Of course you could use a handheld wideband just to tune it and then run standard O2's once it's tuned.

As far as replacing the widebands, I have only had to replace one in the years I've used them, and that was because the harness melted on the exhaust after some tie straps failed. They are pretty reliable in my opinion.

Jody

Yeah, the bosch wideband sensors are the OE pieces on many VWs (and others I'm sure), so they've got to be good for quite a few miles or there'd be a lot of upset VW owners.

If you want to learn your own tuning another option is a GM TPI ECU. It is way cheap and the software to tweak them is readily available and good. It takes a bit more work to get a good understanding, but you can buy a used ECU for $50 and a new wiring harness for $320. They have a tremendous amount of support from forum groups. There are limitations as with everything.

Good luck

For the $3000 dollars that a fully running system costs you may be better off finding an LS1 and having it rebuilt...

Edit...

its early - I realized that you aren't running a SBC - please disregard my post.

As for disregarding megasquirt and "open source code" it really isnt super open unless your int oprogramming C+ programming language.
Megatune is a completely written program just dont try to use it with Vista yet.
I have seen 3 very large engines (540, 777 and a 803) all run on Megasquirt.
The basics you need to look at are what your trying to produce power wise and match injectors and as for the differences between batch fire and sequential is moot at 8000 rpm under boost.
After seeing the 777 run with a dual injector (ie 8 injectors and NOS fogger setup ran through propane injectors) with a Megasquirt I was VERY impressed and the fact it made 900+hp at theflywheel off the bottle and 1398hp on and it was very tractable around town as the guy had to cruise it at some local cruise joint before running at a track.
The 3300 lb car ran tire smoking 5.40s and got 11 mpg cruising town(had to make 5 complete trips through that town and it had about a 9 or 10 mile circuit.
You can order MSII built and ready to install from DIY and they carry the Innovative wideband and as for not needing it on the street for cruising and for regualr use ,that completely silly.
If you want to look at it take a graph paper and run a 10 by 10 square and plot AF/R on it ,,,then take some graph paper and do it over a 50 by 50 (actually you should use 100 by 100 graph to be true).
See if you lookat a 10 by 10 you only have 4 up and 4 down to correct, tons of easy over under fuel potential.
Now if you look at an O2 sensor (regardless of the computer used to read/operate) your band range for high/low is above .8 volts and below .2 volts,,,not a very good plot point and very crude.
Now with 2.5 volts on both sides the computer has a much greater chance of seeing a potential lean out AND being able to correct for it or give warning/shutdown. The computer is goingto read in .100 v over a larger scale and give you better runnig AF/R and be able to protect your engine.
Your willing to spend up to $3k on a system but sweat the fact that a
$150 dollar sensor can/will give you better control/protection from fuel problems?
While you may spend ,what $350 over using narrow band but the WBO2 can keep you from frying an engine/component completely, I wouldthink this would be a pretty much nobrainer and as for spending $3k on a system because you dont understand the reason for open source code is kind of narrow minded.
DIY has several setups and what you buy depends on what all you want to control and theneat thing about the MSII is that the ability to upgrade it is nearly endless and continuos. Heck they are gettingthe bugs worked out of COPS ignition and everyone is using those on LSx engines. I am just saving for my MS as I sat back and decided that I like the dare to be different motto.
I also liek that if pretty much anything in my MS can be bought at local electrobnis store or from DIGI -KEY for chump change to repair but if your set up is well though out rather than well bought out you should have very few problems and the other reason I like it isI am working on a set up to allow flex fuel be incorporated into it.
I had a guy tell me his BS3 could do it and it wouldnt even start,, man was he POed. And he spend about $5k on his BS3 and assorted hardware and went to one of the big shops to have it installed and tuned.
So far the limit I have reached in tuning is with injector sizes and being compatable with both E85 and gasoline.
And we found that being able to run a fuel sensor kept the AF/R much closer.
Good luck in your search.
Lee

yea, I've come a long way since i started this thread. But I've leaned towards something in the realm of MSII. check out VEMS, it came out of the megaquirt project but they took it to a whole different level. Not open source, anymore. and the forum support isn't there, but they have a wiki. www.vems.hu

Bump. So what did you end up with?

I didn't get to get anything done until this summer because I was finishing up an engineering degree and it left me with no time. At any rate I'm going to be getting VEMS. But I won't be able to give an eval of it for a long while. I'm going to paint it soon before it gets cold, then put the efi in it.

I'll be trying out the Megasquirt2Extra, driving two Ford EDIS coils directly for ignition. Launch control, flat shifting, and table switching (for E85 use) was the appeal to me.

Running a Pro Flow on my ZZ4. They have 4 vacuum maps that let you adjust timing and injection pulse width (as a percentage of their baseline.) They also have outside services that can locally modify the prom that establishes the baseline.

Think the intent of pro-flow is to get it running acceptably well and reasonably tunable with a minimum amount of work. Some don't like to, or have time to, or expertise to spend hours fiddling to get the best pulse width for a given engine rpm and manifold vacuum, some are happy with pretty close. Those that want more will ask for more maps and finer controls, and will probably spend time on the rollers to optimize the system



Note- this message is in response to #19. Didn't rea;lize this thread was this old

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Originally Posted by Monzsta

I'll be trying out the Megasquirt2Extra, driving two Ford EDIS coils directly for ignition. Launch control, flat shifting, and table switching (for E85 use) was the appeal to me.

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You may have already thought about this, but be careful switching fuel types. If you're not running the tank dry you won't have E85 after it mixes with the gas (you'll have something in-between depending on what residual was in the tank).