Damper position...

I'm installing a Wegner WAK033 accessory drive onto an LS427/570. The kit came with the ATI Super Damper ATI917776. I followed both ATI and GM's instructions for installing a damper (both were extremely similar) and it's not seating as far back as it should be going. It's about 3/4" off the block cover. ATI said it should be about 1/4" off. It physically can't move back any further. Installing the rest of the accessory drive kit confirmed my crank pulley is about 1/2" out of alignment with the rest of the pulleys. I'm waiting for a call back from Wegner, but I figure I'd throw this question out to you guys to see if you knew what was up.

Thanks.

Attachment 188479

Is the small diameter of the balancer against the seal or is the larger diameter the sealing surface? I believe the smaller diameter is the sealing surface and with that said, the balancer is the wrong offset if nothing lines up.

edit: when you remove the balancer bolt and washer, is the crank flush with the surface of the face where the balancer washer sits?

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Originally Posted by protour_chevelle

Is the small diameter of the balancer against the seal or is the larger diameter the sealing surface? I believe the smaller diameter is the sealing surface and with that said, the balancer is the wrong offset if nothing lines up.

edit: when you remove the balancer bolt and washer, is the crank flush with the surface of the face where the balancer washer sits?

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I think the smaller diameter isn't flushed with the inside diameter of that seal. Is that seal flexible? Because I think the larger diameter could be larger than that seal by a very little bit, but I'm not sure. Here's a pic. What do you think?

Attachment 188480

Here's the crank and the balancer hub. Yes, they're flush.

Attachment 188481

Something is definitely up, I would now say the larger diameter is the sealing surface. The balancer cannot go on any further as its flush where the washer sits.

IS thier any referance or can anyone measure for the OP the distance form the back of the balancer to a reference point? Maybe the timing cover?
Also it looks like the creank snout is flush with the balancer so it cant go further. The bolt would hit the snout.

I have a dry sump 416 here with a Vintage Air FrontRunner on it. Should be all the same setup. ~4.060" from the block face to back of the damper.

Did you order this for a dry sump or wet sump motor? My understanding was that these engine were left over LS7 stock that they converted to wet sump and stabbed a camshaft in.

https://youtu.be/GdM7q__XN7k?t=186

can someone ck my logic that if the crank and balancer are flush.. It cannot go on further.. the bolt would hit the snout before the balancer at that point..

Found some unoffical info online that the snout should be between .094 and .176 depressed from the balancer.

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Originally Posted by XLexusTech

can someone ck my logic that if the crank and balancer are flush.. It cannot go on further.. the bolt would hit the snout before the balancer at that point..

Found some unoffical info online that the snout should be between .094 and .176 depressed from the balancer.

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I run ATI balancers on every engine Ive built or been a part of. What I can say is, we always run ARP crank bolts that come with their own washer. The washer, crank and the shoulder of the ati balancer sit flush with each other.

I just did this on a LS7 570 crate. I installed a Holley mid mount with the ATI damper. The Holley, nor ATI instructions have any info for the spacer used on the dry sump crank and extended timing cover on the LS7. After talking with ATI, providing dimensions, etc, they basically told me with the GM crank spacer, the damper is moved out to the seal the same as an LS3, so a LS3 damper, as well as accessory drive kit, is what is required. Holley has updated the mid mount info on the website to reflect this.

My crank hub looks pretty much like yours. The crank was recessed a couple hundred in the ATI hub. ATI confirmed this is correct.
Attachment 188602Attachment 188603Attachment 188602Attachment 188603

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Originally Posted by sccacuda

I just did this on a LS7 570 crate. I installed a Holley mid mount with the ATI damper. The Holley, nor ATI instructions have any info for the spacer used on the dry sump crank and extended timing cover on the LS7. After talking with ATI, providing dimensions, etc, they basically told me with the GM crank spacer, the damper is moved out to the seal the same as an LS3, so a LS3 damper, as well as accessory drive kit, is what is required. Holley has updated the mid mount info on the website to reflect this.

My crank hub looks pretty much like yours. The crank was recessed a couple hundred in the ATI hub. ATI confirmed this is correct.
Attachment 188602Attachment 188603Attachment 188602Attachment 188603

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Maybe its his photo, but if you look closely it appears the seal isn't touching the balancer, about a .125" gap around. Yours clearly shows its riding on the seal. He still has the issue of the balancer being wrong as the belt alignment is off in relation to all other pulleys.

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Originally Posted by protour_chevelle

Maybe its his photo, but if you look closely it appears the seal isn't touching the balancer, about a .125" gap around. Yours clearly shows its riding on the seal. He still has the issue of the balancer being wrong as the belt alignment is off in relation to all other pulleys.

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Can't really tell from his photo, but it looks like the big step is about a 1/4" off the seal, which is what I think ATI meant when they told you that. Same as mine. I'm actually more than 3/4" from the cover to balancer, but pulley and belt line up, as it's supposed to in the kit. Not sure what ATI hub/balancer I have, it came with the mid mount, and is for an LS3.Attachment 188607

Spoke with ATI about the issue and showed them all the pics that you guys saw here. They said there basically shouldn't be an issue, that I have all the right parts, offered zero solutions, and said it was Wegner's problem, which didn't make sense since their accessory drive has nothing to do with how the damper sits. It was a disappointing call, to say the least.

I called Wegner and they said since the LS427 is nearly the same LS7 converted to wet sump, that is probably uses the same spacer that Scoggin-Dickey uses on the crank. I went back to the stock damper and, sure enough, there was a spacer attached to it that wouldn't simply fall off. It's a .88” spacer. Pulley was about that much off. If I use that spacer in front of the damper, it should seat it properly. Here's a pic of it.
Attachment 188617

My problem now is actually press fitting it. The instructions say to use the previous bolt to push the damper in. I can't get the bolt threaded to even start the press and even if I could, I'd be worried I didn't have enough thread purchase to ensure it wouldn't strip. I've tried all of the damper installer rentals around here and none of them even came close to reaching. This "long reach" harmonic balancer installer that comes today will be my latest attempt. Is there an installation tool out there that you guys know of to get this done?

Additionally, I wanted to take the damper off to relube everything for the press fit, but the previous removable tool I used won't work on this damper. The ones that screw into the damper also don't have a center base large enough and begin to seat themselves INTO the crank when I begin tightening. Is there a removal tool out there that will work with this setup?

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Originally Posted by roguegeek

My problem now is actually press fitting it. The instructions say to use the previous bolt to push the damper in. I can't get the bolt threaded to even start the press and even if I could, I'd be worried I didn't have enough thread purchase to ensure it wouldn't strip. I've tried all of the damper installer rentals around here and none of them even came close to reaching. This "long reach" harmonic balancer installer that comes today will be my latest attempt. Is there an installation tool out there that you guys know of to get this done?

Additionally, I wanted to take the damper off to relube everything for the press fit, but the previous removable tool I used won't work on this damper. The ones that screw into the damper also don't have a center base large enough and begin to seat themselves INTO the crank when I begin tightening. Is there a removal tool out there that will work with this setup?

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Proform 66519 is the ticket for an install tool.

for removal, If I understand what you're saying correctly, I turn down the outside diameter of a stock balancer bolt so the balancer can slip past it. That way the balancer puller tool can press against the bolt head.

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Originally Posted by protour_chevelle

Proform 66519 is the ticket for an install tool.

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Thank you. I'll be my next option if the long reach one coming today doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by protour_chevelle

for removal, If I understand what you're saying correctly, I turn down the outside diameter of a stock balancer bolt so the balancer can slip past it. That way the balancer puller tool can press against the bolt head.

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Ahh! Use the bolt head instead. Gotcha. Yeah, that'll work. Thanks again.

Update: Installing and pushing against the crank bolt worked. I was able to nudge it, reset the bolt, and rinse/repeat until it was off. Regreased everything and press fit the damper on using the long reach installer, which worked beautifully. Damper is installed all the way back and all the pulleys align.

Side note: When I called up ATI last, I asked about pinning the crank and they said I shouldn't worry about it with the power I was making. When I called up Wegner, they asked me if I was pinning the crank and told them ATI said I didn't need to. They flat out said that was dumb, that they've seen stock LS1s throw their damper, and that considering the cost, I should definitely do it. Ordered my pin kit tonight as well.

What do they mean by "throw their damper?"

The pin kit has nothing to do with damper retention. It is there to keep the balancer rotating on the crank, usually as a result of driving a supercharger. In a NA application, I don't see the benefit of adding a crank pin kit.

Andrew

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Originally Posted by andrewb70

What do they mean by "throw their damper?"

The pin kit has nothing to do with damper retention. It is there to keep the balancer rotating on the crank, usually as a result of driving a supercharger. In a NA application, I don't see the benefit of adding a crank pin kit.

Andrew

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Yup. I understand it only prevents shift and not retention. I might have gotten the precise wording incorrect, though. At one point, Wegner ask me if it was keyed. I told them ATI said it should be fine without. They offered critical feedback on that suggestion saying they've seen dampers spin on stock LS1s and that, considering the cost and effort, I should be using ATI's Crank Pin Drill Fixture Kit (918993).