Fuel system recommendations?

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03-01-2021
roguegeek

Fuel system recommendations?

1973 Camaro with Speedtech Extreme subframe and torque arm. I have the LS427 and T56 going in this week. Speedtech headers are ordered up. I need to start thinking about all fuel and electrical delivery that's needed to get the engine going, but I want to focus this post on just fuel. I know I want to run a tank/cell from the stock location and not the trunk. That's about all I know.

I need to know everything I have to purchase for my fuel system and some suggestions on which products you guys are running. What kind of tanks are you guys running on your rides? Fuel lines? Etc...?

Thanks, everyone!
03-01-2021
dhutton

Ricks tank with a fifth gen ZL1 pump and a vaporworx PWM controller.

https://www.vaporworx.com/

Carl is very knowledgeable and helpful. Send him an email or give him a call.

Don
03-01-2021
CarlC

Are you looking for a true fuel cell or a tank?
03-01-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhutton

Ricks tank with a fifth gen ZL1 pump and a vaporworx PWM controller.

https://www.vaporworx.com/

Carl is very knowledgeable and helpful. Send him an email or give him a call.

Don

Thanks again, Don. Always helpful. So getting a little higher level, in terms of all the fuel components needed, I'm looking at a tank, lines/fittings, pump, and controller. Would that be correct?
03-01-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlC

Are you looking for a true fuel cell or a tank?

Hey Carl. Well I suppose I would want recommendations from the hive mind as to what going to be best for my particular application. The link in my signature lists my goals for the project, but the TLDR version is; this needs to be a daily driver first while being capable and competitive enough to do dozen or so track days a year. Thoughts?
03-01-2021
dhutton

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguegeek

Thanks again, Don. Always helpful. So getting a little higher level, in terms of all the fuel components needed, I'm looking at a tank, lines/fittings, pump, and controller. Would that be correct?

Yes that sounds right. Ricks has nice tanks and the fifth gen fuel pump module will prevent fuel starvation.

For tank ventilation iimuch has what you need.

Don
03-01-2021
JohnUlaszek

How are you going to use the car?
03-01-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnUlaszek

How are you going to use the car?

The link in my signature lists my goals for the project, but the TLDR version is; this needs to be a daily driver first while being capable and competitive enough to do dozen or so track days a year. Thoughts?
03-01-2021
joeko23

I’d also recommend Ricks restomod tank. They are stock style tanks but have the opening for a zl1 or ctsv pump. They are considerably cheaper then the stainless versions. Order the tank from https://mcbparts.com/

They will hook you up with a great price. As far as fuel module whether you get the ZL-1 pump or the CTS-V pump, check out Amazon or rockauto.com they have very good prices.

For fuel lines, NICOPP hardlines with either an compression fittings or get a 37 degree flare tool and get tube nuts and sleeves. For short flex line connections, again something that won’t break the bank is Earls Vaporguard hose and their fittings. Don recommended these to me and that’s what I just ordered.

Definitely, get the VaporWorx controller if your looking for a reliable daily driver.
03-01-2021
andrewb70

I to recommend the Rick's RestoMod tank, 5th Gen Camaro module, VaporWorx PWM controller, and using NiCopp fuel lines. Here is a video that I made a while ago on how to mate NiCopp fuel lines to AN hoses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46hFmkTGGV8

The AN hoses that you choose should be PTFE lined, not rubber.

Andrew
03-01-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeko23

I’d also recommend Ricks restomod tank. They are stock style tanks but have the opening for a zl1 or ctsv pump. They are considerably cheaper then the stainless versions. Order the tank from https://mcbparts.com/

They will hook you up with a great price. As far as fuel module whether you get the ZL-1 pump or the CTS-V pump, check out Amazon or rockauto.com they have very good prices.

Ok. I'm set on grabbing the Rick's tank. I don't think they make the restomod tank anymore, but I will check. I think they're only doing the stainless steel now. With MCB, I've already been working with them the last couple of years. Bought 90% of this build through them so far. I'm glad to see they are a vendor for some of these manufacturers you all are recommending. Great people and great prices. Can't recommend them enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeko23

For fuel lines, NICOPP hardlines with either an compression fittings or get a 37 degree flare tool and get tube nuts and sleeves. For short flex line connections, again something that won’t break the bank is Earls Vaporguard hose and their fittings. Don recommended these to me and that’s what I just ordered.

Definitely, get the VaporWorx controller if your looking for a reliable daily driver.

I'll get in touch with VaporWorx immediately and get everything I need from them. Thanks for the recommendation.
03-01-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewb70

I to recommend the Rick's RestoMod tank, 5th Gen Camaro module, VaporWorx PWM controller, and using NiCopp fuel lines. Here is a video that I made a while ago on how to mate NiCopp fuel lines to AN hoses.

The AN hoses that you choose should be PTFE lined, not rubber.

Andrew

Thanks, Andrew. It's nice to see all these recommendations aligning.
03-02-2021
CSG

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguegeek

Ok. I'm set on grabbing the Rick's tank. I don't think they make the restomod tank anymore, but I will check. I think they're only doing the stainless steel now. With MCB, I've already been working with them the last couple of years. Bought 90% of this build through them so far. I'm glad to see they are a vendor for some of these manufacturers you all are recommending. Great people and great prices. Can't recommend them enough.

I'll get in touch with VaporWorx immediately and get everything I need from them. Thanks for the recommendation.

Update us on the tank. I see conflicting information on if it is still being offered & I want one as well.
03-02-2021
andrewb70

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG

Update us on the tank. I see conflicting information on if it is still being offered & I want one as well.

Call them. I just got one a few weeks ago.
03-02-2021
anguilla1980

Note that when speaking to Hector @Ricks (if you aren't getting a "restomod" tank) to order a SS tank, you need to specify a road-racing/auto-x use case and request special baffles as they are not standard (as of Oct 2020 when I spoke to him anyway). Rick's is also doing the exterior of my tank finished in black. The width of the inside of my rear frame rails is standard but I'm not running an exhaust past the tank so I gave Hector custom measurements to get absolutely as much fuel capacity as possible. I then sent the CAD of the tank to Speedtech for them to verify there would be no issues with their IRS setup I'll be buying.

I opted to use an AI FC-1500 fuel system instead of the GM ZL1 module: https://www.fueledbyai.com/FC1500-Fu...tem-p238256936
This has a standard 6x9 hat with the surge tank, pumps, dual pick-up, tank vent port, fuel lever sender, and filler all incorporated so everything is internal.

Carl @VaporWorx is setting me up with a dual pump PWM controller setup (he has my FC-1500 right now for testing). I also have a 10-micron glass -8AN in-line Aeromotive filter and the Walbro pumps have 100-micron filters on their inlets. I'll be running -8AN lines and a II Much tank vent (which is -6AN).

My car has about the same use case as yours, although I do nearly no auto-x and mostly road racing. A dozen events a season but still able to drive street long distances for other events and cruises. My fuel system is going to maybe be a bit over kill, but if it's one thing I've learned building this car, it is to not cheap on ANYTHING and over build, otherwise, I end up replacing it anyway.
03-02-2021
andrewb70

He doesn't need all that for a LS427/570
03-02-2021
anguilla1980

Sure, but it's good to know what options are out there.
03-02-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG

Update us on the tank. I see conflicting information on if it is still being offered & I want one as well.

Talked with MCB about it today. What I was told was... they stopped manufacturing the restomod tank for a while, but now they brought it back, but only without the notches. Which sucks because I'm going to run my exhaust all the way out the back. So it looks like it's going to be SS for me.
03-02-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by anguilla1980

Note that when speaking to Hector @Ricks (if you aren't getting a "restomod" tank) to order a SS tank, you need to specify a road-racing/auto-x use case and request special baffles as they are not standard (as of Oct 2020 when I spoke to him anyway). Rick's is also doing the exterior of my tank finished in black. The width of the inside of my rear frame rails is standard but I'm not running an exhaust past the tank so I gave Hector custom measurements to get absolutely as much fuel capacity as possible. I then sent the CAD of the tank to Speedtech for them to verify there would be no issues with their IRS setup I'll be buying.

I opted to use an AI FC-1500 fuel system instead of the GM ZL1 module: https://www.fueledbyai.com/FC1500-Fu...tem-p238256936
This has a standard 6x9 hat with the surge tank, pumps, dual pick-up, tank vent port, fuel lever sender, and filler all incorporated so everything is internal.

Carl @VaporWorx is setting me up with a dual pump PWM controller setup (he has my FC-1500 right now for testing). I also have a 10-micron glass -8AN in-line Aeromotive filter and the Walbro pumps have 100-micron filters on their inlets. I'll be running -8AN lines and a II Much tank vent (which is -6AN).

Good to know. With the restomod only being produced without notches, I'll be going with the SS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by anguilla1980

My car has about the same use case as yours, although I do nearly no auto-x and mostly road racing. A dozen events a season but still able to drive street long distances for other events and cruises. My fuel system is going to maybe be a bit over kill, but if it's one thing I've learned building this car, it is to not cheap on ANYTHING and over build, otherwise, I end up replacing it anyway.

That's actually the same use case I'm building for. Nearly all track time will be road courses. Maybe I'll throw in some auto crossing, but I don't foresee it at this point. Never say never, though, right?
03-02-2021
andrewb70

Sadly the "more is better" logic doesn't apply to fuel systems any more than it applies to the diameter of throttle bodies. You want a system that will have enough fuel flow to support the engine and maybe 20-25% more.

People have used the ZL1 pump with the corner pickups with great success and with the power output of a LS427/570, that's all you need.

Andrew
03-02-2021
roguegeek
Ok, so apparently Rick's is offering the Restomod tanks with cutouts on first-gens, but not second-gens. I grabbed the first-gen Restomod tank through MCB and will just have to modify the fuel filler or be ok with it sitting a little higher. Everything else fits just fine. 2 week turnaround time, which is pretty damn good these days.

Now I just need to figure out what I need from VaporWorx. Using their Selector Tool, it gave me the following kits if I'm staying under 750hp:
- PressureWorx ZL1/Universal PWM Fuel Module Controller
- PressureWorx DW300C Returnless PWM Kit
Could use some help here. What's the difference and which one is going to best suit my needs?
03-02-2021
joeko23

You need the ZL1/Universal PWM controller. You can email or call Carl at VaporWorx. The DW300C kit is for a specialized pump (DW300). If your getting the ZL1 pump then you’ll need the one for ZL1
03-02-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeko23

You need the ZL1/Universal PWM controller. You can email or call Carl at VaporWorx. The DW300C kit is for a specialized pump (DW300). If your getting the ZL1 pump then you’ll need the one for ZL1

So the tank ordered up for me from MCB is the following specs:

RESTOMOD 1969 CAMARO
Vaporworx SS pump.
Sending unit 90 ohms
16091 1969 GM F Body stamped 1
steel tank. Level I
Vaporworx system. Camaro
SS pump, Corner pick ups,
Harness, Pushlock fitting
and tube style sending
unit 90 ohms.

Did I get the wrong pump?
03-02-2021
dhutton

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguegeek

So the tank ordered up for me from MCB is the following specs:

RESTOMOD 1969 CAMARO
Vaporworx SS pump.
Sending unit 90 ohms
16091 1969 GM F Body stamped 1
steel tank. Level I
Vaporworx system. Camaro
SS pump, Corner pick ups,
Harness, Pushlock fitting
and tube style sending
unit 90 ohms.

Level I
Vaporworx system. Camaro
SS pump, Corner pick ups,
Harness, Pushlock fitting
and tube style sending
unit 90 ohms.

Did I get the wrong pump?

You should have got the ZL1 pump not the SS pump.

Don
03-02-2021
roguegeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhutton

You should have got the ZL1 pump not the SS pump.

Don

Ok. I’ll get this changed up. See anything else funky there?
03-02-2021
dhutton

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguegeek

Ok. I’ll get this changed up. See anything else funky there?

Since it says Vaporworx I’m assuming they will leave the stock ZL1 pressure regulator on the fuel pump. That’s what’s needed for PWM.

Don
03-03-2021
JohnUlaszek

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguegeek

The link in my signature lists my goals for the project, but the TLDR version is; this needs to be a daily driver first while being capable and competitive enough to do dozen or so track days a year. Thoughts?

Apologies, I didn’t read the signature. My opinion, FWIW, if I was building a track day car i’d choose an “off the shelf” Fuel Safe or ATL bladder ($500-800). Buy or build the “can” to contain the bladder and integrate it into the build. Wait until the end of the build to buy the bladder as they do have a shelf life. Yes, the bladder will need to be replaced every five years, but the cost is minimal per year and the safety gained is substantial. A novice driver with a mild setup can easily achieve speeds an OEM style fuel tank cannot survive in an unplanned deviation from from the track surface. Vaporworx and other fuel delivery suppliers can help with getting the fuel to the front of the car.
03-03-2021
Shawn0331

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewb70

I to recommend the Rick's RestoMod tank, 5th Gen Camaro module, VaporWorx PWM controller, and using NiCopp fuel lines. Here is a video that I made a while ago on how to mate NiCopp fuel lines to AN hoses.

The AN hoses that you choose should be PTFE lined, not rubber.

Andrew

Would you still need the controller if you are using a factory GM ECU?
03-03-2021
roguegeek

Alright. Spoke with Carl this morning. Awesome call. Tremendous help. Really helped me take all of the information in my head and put it together in a more comprehensive way. Grabbed the VaporWorx PressureWorx ZL1/Universal PWM Fuel Module Controller and a couple other accessories. Called up MCB and got the Rick's Tanks order changed over to the ZL1 pump. I think I'm set here.

Now I just need to get lines straighten out. I'm going to do hard lines where I can with some flexible tubing on both ends. I may grab the tools and materials to try and bend my own. I may look at the manufacturers that have been recommended to me such as Goodridge, Fragola, etc... Would like to hear any futher recommendations you guys might have there.

Again, thanks everyone.
03-03-2021
carbuff

Something I only saw mentioned in one reply above... Add a fuel filter to the system. If I recall correctly, I believe there was a stud mount on the front of my tank where I attached the filter using line clamps. I used a small aluminum body filter (don't recall the exact brand).

There is a special AN adapter fitting to go from the ZL1 pump to the hardline I believe. Someone else here will know exactly what you need (it's been years since I put my system together and no longer have the car).

Regarding fitting brand, I think that's really up to you. You should be able to hardline from the pump output to a filter. Then perhaps a soft line from the filter output to the hardline along the frame rails. Make that pretty short. Hardline to the firewall then adapter to AN flex line from there. My hardline ended right at the firewall (we mindful of where your exhaust will run through there also, don't let the lines get too close).

If you didn't already, discuss the location of the pressure sensor for the VaporWorx controlled with Carl. I mounted mine at the output of my filter, but I've sense read that it may be better to mount at the fuel rail. I already had 2 sensors on the rail (one for a gauge, one to my Holley EFI), so there wasn't much space there anyway. But plan for exactly where you want to mount that sensor (you'll need a special AN adapter which is like a union with a 1/8" NPT AN port I believe).

The NiCop lines Andrew mentioned are the way to go in my opinion also. Much easier to work with than Stainless.

Are you going to run subframe connectors? On my car, I had to route the hard line under the SFC which meant they were a low point on my car. I never really liked that, and sure enough I managed to pinch the line once with a jack due to poor jack placement. Think about how you might route in a different way to avoid having the hardline be a low point. Might be best to just run them up the floor itself and not along the frame rail (I think that's what Steilow did on his latest project, but I might be thinking of another car).

Only use the smooth radius AN fittings if you need to create a bend, don't use the forged fittings (I think that's what they are called) which have hard 90* bored into them. Those are bad for flow.

Oh, speak to Rick's about making sure your tank is vented so that you don't have any fill issues. I believe the suggestion is to run a balance vent line from the front side of the tank to the filler tube. I didn't have that on mine (again, purchased well before this was discussed) and I would sometimes push fuel through my II Much vent and have trouble getting the tank full. There have been discussions on this topic in the last couple of years (here or at LatG).

Hopefully some of this rambling helps. Various things I ran into on my own setup... Good luck!
03-03-2021
andrewb70

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbuff

.....

Only use the smooth radius AN fittings if you need to create a bend, don't use the forged fittings (I think that's what they are called) which have hard 90* bored into them. Those are bad for flow.

....

Excellent point and advice that should be followed.

Andrew
03-03-2021
dhutton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn0331

Would you still need the controller if you are using a factory GM ECU?

Generally speaking yes.

Don
03-03-2021
CarlC

I believe JP has used the OEM fan controller. Not sure on the FSCM.

No external filter is needed when using the modern fuel modules. A fine element filter is part of the assembly. It won't hurt to have another but it's redundant and adds costs.
03-03-2021
joeko23

Get this kit as well. Will make your life easier.

https://www.vaporworx.com/shop/produ...outlet-kit-45/

I’m in the process of fabbing hardlines for my 69 Camaro. I can shoot you a few pics when I’m done. Probably end of next week. I’m also working on running trans oil lines to radiator. I can post up those pics as well.
03-04-2021
John McIntire

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbuff

If you didn't already, discuss the location of the pressure sensor for the VaporWorx controlled with Carl. I mounted mine at the output of my filter, but I've sense read that it may be better to mount at the fuel rail. I already had 2 sensors on the rail (one for a gauge, one to my Holley EFI), so there wasn't much space there anyway. But plan for exactly where you want to mount that sensor (you'll need a special AN adapter which is like a union with a 1/8" NPT AN port I believe).

The pressure sensor for the PWM controller needs to be mounted as close to the fuel pump as possible. You can mount it first thing right out of the pump. Carl included the fittings needed and there is enough room on top of the tank to do so with the recess on top of the stainless tank from Ricks. I don't know about the Restomod model.
03-04-2021
dhutton

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarlC

I believe JP has used the OEM fan controller. Not sure on the FSCM.

No external filter is needed when using the modern fuel modules. A fine element filter is part of the assembly. It won't hurt to have another but it's redundant and adds costs.

Doh! You are correct. I got my PWMs mixed up. Sorry for any confusion. I edited my nonsense.

Don
03-04-2021
carbuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McIntire

The pressure sensor for the PWM controller needs to be mounted as close to the fuel pump as possible. You can mount it first thing right out of the pump. Carl included the fittings needed and there is enough room on top of the tank to do so with the recess on top of the stainless tank from Ricks. I don't know about the Restomod model.

Hmm, that's not how I remember it, but perhaps recommendations have changed. I know that at WOT my system would drop pressure at the rails according to my dash gauge and my Holley EFI logging when targeting 58 PSI (it would end as low as 52-53 PSI) but maintained a nice 58 PSI during idle and part throttle conditions.