Can Not Figure This Steering Issue Out

[AintQik]

This makes no sense and I am at my wits end. Looking for further troubleshooting advice.

67 Camaro, L&H spindles and arms, AGR quick box, stock-type Saginaw pump, March serpentine pulleys.

I've been through 2 boxes, 2 sets of lines and 3 pumps. After 10 minutes of driving the pump starts making noise and eventually fails. Unless I keep getting new bad parts I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell is going on. It seems to be a blockage/pressure issue. The first time I bolted it up the box was leaking out the shaft. I just figured I had a bad box so I replaced it. Second box had no leaks but after a bit of driving (15 mins in the driveway) the high pressure hose blew off the pump and caught the car on fire. Lucklily no real damage. I was running AN lines with plenty of volume and I figured I just assembled the hose poorly. I've never had a hose fail on me in 30 years, but hey I guess it could happen. I replaced the lines with factory lines and all seemed well as I bled the system. No noise, no whine, no nothing. Got the car down on the road and drove to my friend's house, 15 mins away. Pump failed. First there was slight groaning, then heavy groaning, then chunky steering, then nothing. I could get it to have some power intermittent, but it was mostly gone.

Changed the pump and the exact same issue. On stands the car works flawlessly. Got it on the ground and within 15 minutes its toast.

Got a new pump, all have been box store off the shelf things, and started to trouble shoot as obviously there is an issue. At idle the temp goes from 80 ambient to 140. All the air is out. I don't know much about what the temp should be, but from what I can gather so far that may be a little high. I have the pump, 2 lines and the box. No cooler or anything funky.

No noise, no issues. Put the car on the pavement and I can hear the slightest grunt when asked to work. Nothing too crazy. Then it gets a bit chunky. Drove up and down the driveway and checked temp. It was a little over 200. I have no pressure gauge, just using temp to possibly lead me to a blockage conclusion. Still no failure, but it is definitely not right.

Went for a 10 minute ride and gto everything hot. More noise and by the time I got to the house I was getting intermittent failure. Like I turn it and it screams and there is no power. Temp is 210. Valvoline fluid.

No idea what to do next. Don't really feel like building an elaborate pressure gauge but of course I need to get this fixed. Looked at pulley sizes and they seem to be correct. Was thinking it is heat related, but the lines are wrapped in heat protection and I mean 220 doesn't seem hot emough to cause a complete failure in the pump. Measuring temps in the resevour.

Was thinking of taking the return line off and using my hand pump to draw fluid through the system. From what I understand about the box, this would work. Maybe I can "feel" some resistance. I doubt it.

Was thinking of running some tranny fluid in it to see if that has any effect.

I guess you can imagine I don't want to buy another $350 box or pump. I was also thinking of finding a stock box somewhere and just trying that. Unfortunately I only have these fancy ones. I find it hard to believe that 2 boxes were bad out of the box, but I guess anything is possible. However, I think the chances of a blockage in the box is almost slim to none. But again, who knows. Maybe I'm just getting crappy pumps? But, 3 in a row? Something is not right and I'm too stupid to figure it out.

Any ideas? If you told me to sacrifice a jelly covered doughnut on the next full moon while wearing my wife's thong I would do it at this point.

[TAC]

Had a similar problem on a customers truck , he installed a steering box and started having problems. He crossed the lines on the box. Pressure line port is closer to the front of the car.

[AintQik]

Yup, I checked that first. The lines are different sizes too. Maybe I should switch them and see what happens? Can't get any worse lol.

[TAC]

If your using aftermarket lines they would be both -6 fittings, depending on which adapters used. You have changed everything at least twice. Other than crossed lines I don't have any other ideas.

[AintQik]

They were AN, now back to stock. Appreciate the thoughts, I thank you for the input... hope somebody else chimes in with some ideas.

[Red67Mustang]

Is it possible your pulley is spinning in the input shaft? Wouldn't explain the hot fluid but may explain noises / intermittent failure.

Just a thought.

[AintQik]

Good thought but its keys and seems to be worsmoothlysmoothly


Is it possible your pulley is spinning in the input shaft? Wouldn't explain the hot fluid but may explain noises / intermittent failure.

Just a thought.

[Red67Mustang]

One more thought...

It sounds like you were running aftermarket hoses... Is there any chance the low pressure (aka; 'suction') hose is actually collapsing under certain circumstances? It's perhaps a stretch, and would likely only cause an intermittent problem, but you've already checked everything else.

(Maybe it's time to try the donut and thong trick)

Good luck!

[David Pozzi]

Have you had the outlet fitting off? There are two pressure valves & two outlet valves that can't be mixed. The early pressure valve with slot goes against the outlet fitting that has a small OD & no hole on the side. The later pressure valves have no slot & are used with a larger OD outlet fitting which has a hole in its side.
Pumps can get noisy around 250 degrees & up but should still function up to 300 but your steering fluid is not going to last long.
David

[David Pozzi]

Below is the early valve and male outlet fitting with smaller end that goes against the valve, no side hole.
78069

This is the later valve with no notch, & outlet
78059

[AintQik]

David, I will pull the outlet apart as I really don't have anything else to try. Those pics look the same to me, but I will try and dig up which outlets and pressure valves go together. The pumps came with the outlet on them so I can only assume they are correct, but like I said I've got nothing else at this point.

I've re-read your website on steering and I'm wondering if the AGR box needs more flow or pressure? It would seem the stock pump only makes 1000psi and 2.5gpm but all the after market boxes and even the Z28 box call for more than that.

I can mod the pressure valve as shown, but I'm not sure if my symptoms point to a pressure or flow issue. I got nothing to lose at this point so if you think its worth a shot I can try it.

[David Pozzi]

I don't know exactly what pump & valve you are using on your car so it's difficult to say. I did have to increase pressure and drill the orifice when putting just wide tires on my 67 with stock box & trying to autocross it. I think the first gen Camaro pumps need more pressure and flow to properly run a 12.7 to 1 box. The 70's pumps seem to have enough pressure & flow to run a 12:7 box but a lot depends on front end weight, tire width, and wheel offset. Also what type of driving you are doing. Autocross is the toughest. Something like idle speed can make a big difference.


Went for a 10 minute ride and gto everything hot. More noise and by the time I got to the house I was getting intermittent failure. Like I turn it and it screams and there is no power. Temp is 210. Valvoline fluid.
The above makes me think you are lacking enough pressure when the system get's hot. It might be enough when cold but as it heats up it starts popping open the pressure relief valve.


I fixed the photos above, have another look.

[David Pozzi]

Here is a video showing how to change pressure shims. To increase pressure you need to remove a shim. This video shows how to reduce pressure by adding them from a Borgeson kit. It's very important to find a safe way to clamp the pressure valve without damaging it. The whole valve assy moves front to rear in a bore and you don't want any nicks in the surface. The pressure nut is on very tight and probably has Loctite on it from the factory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-yY6XE47YM

[AintQik]

I will try to increase pressure this weekend and post up any affect.

[AintQik]

Slight update. Had family over so no real time to work on the car. But I started it and it idles fine, no noise no chatter, good steering. When I parked it it was groaning and the steering was almost gone. Seems directly related to time and or heat. Perfectly cold it seems to work ok then get progressively worse.

[David Pozzi]

Does your pump have a bolt on pulley?
Does it have a male outlet fitting?

[AintQik]

Stock Saginaw type pump. Keyed, bolt on pulley. It has a female port that uses a fitting to mate with the hose so I guess its the later style.

The pump part number that is on there now references a late 70s big block truck. I've had pumps that were 67 Camaro on there as well, I just like the way the return hose exits on this pump.

[AintQik]

This is the valve in my pump.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/06/b55553b30eec405ac0cca1a3eab2763f-1.jpg
The oriface was already .147" so I left it alone. I took the 2 shims out of the valve.

I bled the car and let it idle for awhile. It never got hotter than 105* same ambient as before. Last time at idle it was 140*. I wrapped the motor up a bunch of times and it got to 125*. How does more pressure make less temp? Same type fluid. It may be in my head, but turning the wheel up on stands seemed smoother and less noisey than before. But, I dunno.

Its pissing rain here in Jersey so I can not take it out. I need to bleed it some more as well.

[David Pozzi]

I know a little on these pumps but only a little. Jim on Team Camaro has posted some facts and what I understand goes on is the holes in the outlet fitting control flow rate. Not only the outlet restriction, but the holes on the side of the outlet fitting control flow. Low flow rate is noticed when you turn the steering as fast as you can and the pump can't keep up and you lose boost.

Pressure is controlled by the "spool" valve. Low pressure will be noticed when sitting still and turning the wheels slowly when parking, also it's worse if you have your foot on the brake pedal. If you have a lot of positive wheel offset, the tires have to slide to make a sharp turn with brakes on hard. If engine idle is low, a worn pump may not be able to generate enough pressure, also if the relief valve is too low it can't generate enough pressure for the load on the steering box. I have read many warnings to not turn the steering wheel all the way and let the pump make full pressure for more than a second. When you hear the relief valve screetching, oil is bypassing internally and it is not circulating through the lines. Oil temps can skyrocket instantly if the pump is bypassing. I imagine your pump had a lower pressure valve in it and was near bypass at normal temps. Once the oil heated up it was probably bypassing some all the time and raising temps too high.

Even though there may be no cooler the fluid IS cooled some by circulating through the lines and steering box. With a high performance steering box, it is recommended to have either a cooler or a loop of steel tube parallel to the sway bar across the car and back to act as a cooler. Third Gen Camaros used this system. I've seen a lot of fast ratio boxes overheat the system on track days, but even fairly small coolers brought temps under control. I put a small trans cooler on my wife's 73 Camaro and a remote reservoir and you can hold your hand on the reservoir when it comes in off the track. I think it runs around 100 degrees.
David

[AintQik]

Yeah this thing is overheating on 10 minute cruises. I don't know what is going on. The increased pressure helped, but only to the point that when it "fails" I still have a little help turning the wheels.

I put in Dex and same deal, at 10 minutes it had no steering. With the Dextron it was foaming and frothy when it went out. Sounds like air, but it was gone. Almost like the fluid is boiling over. The lines are routed under the car and up along the block. They are heat shielded but I am going to route them in the traditional spot. I can see no heat benefit from this, but I'm going to try it. I will also run a cooler to see if it helps but I feel like I am band aiding the problem not fixing it. It should not over heat in 10 mins.

The pump starts "chirping", it is very faint. When that happens, within 2 minutes its gone.

[David Pozzi]

Are you sure the belt isn't slipping? Put a piece of light colored tape on the pulley & watch it. If the pulley or belt gets oil on it there can be slipping, which is more of a chirping sound. The pressure relief sounds like a screech.
Use power steering fluid only. Transmission oil can ruin the pump vanes, which have a lot of sliding friction. Modern ATF does not have enough lubrication.

If your hoses or fittings have a restriction or sudden change in ID, it can cause cavitation & foaming.
Is your pressure line from the pump running to the engine side port on the box?

[AintQik]

Belt does not slip much if at all. Before any screeching, the chirping sound is present. It is very slight, but it is there everytime right before the failures.

Pressure hose is in the correct port which is more towards the front of the car and nearer the engine as you noted.

Only used the ATF to see if it had any effect. It was only in there 10 mins and I will go back to PS fluid.

I'm trying not to get depressed but this is driving me nuts. I'm going to re-route the hoses and remove the heat shield. Maybe I can see a hose collapse or something. They are brand new, but stranger things have happened. If that doesn't work I will swap boxes to the stock box to see if that has any affect.

[David Pozzi]

Do you have an unusual amount of front end weight?
Long or short pitman arm?
Long or short outer steering arms?

[AintQik]

David, before we go any further, thanks so much for your input. Its an iron-headed big block, but lots of aluminum parts so I don't think its very unusual.

Steering arms are L&K Kustoms to go with their spindles. I have not measured the pitman. It is the same one the car had on it originally. I can measure all and post that up. Don't think I have a really unusual set-up, but at this point I dunno.

[AintQik]

Update. I installed a cooler and its not failing. Fluid temp after a good run is 140. It still will groan in a parking lot when going slow at idle, but the groan is faint and acceptable considering my suspension mods. It is also not very frequent and consistant with what I would consider a normal car to do.

So, do I just leave all alone? I'm worried I just band-aided an issue. I don't see why my fluid temps would get to the point of failing just cruising easy. God forbid a rough track run.

Also, for the record the fluid failed just over 200 degrees. Its Valvoline. I never though I would see complete failure at a temp that low. But, I did and that made for some tough troubleshooting. I guess ya learn something new everyday.

I'd also like some recommendations on a better fluid. I'm leaning towards calling it a day until I see what happens when I run it hard. To that end, I'd like to put something happier with temperature in there. Thanks!

[David Pozzi]

Ae you using an infa-red gun for temps? If you shoot the outside of the reservoir with an IR gun, the fluid inside is probably hotter by 10-20 degrees. I have seen that the fast ratio boxes work the pump harder & require more pressure. I've used the Valvoline with no problems, but Jim on Team Camaro worked for Saginaw & says to use the GM fluid because its specifically made for the Saginaw pumps.
A cooler really isn't a band-aid, but I know what you mean.