autoX on no budget

[groho]

I've been wandering around this forum for some time and see most of you folks are very, very serious about your track time, cars and setups, and have the budgets to do so. me, I'm married and broke, and trying to put two kids through college......but....I have a 66 mustang coupe that i truly would like to autox and have weekend fun, but don't know where to start with proper setup without killing my wallet. Any ideas where to start? What reading do you suggest? I currently have a fairly stock but strong SBF 289, pro-built C4, 3:25 tracloc, subframes, 4.5 leaf, SSBC brakes, lowered, what you would consider bare bones. no I can't afford total control or maier racing setup. Suggestions. How bout a sub-forum for folks just starting out?

[Ron Sutton]

No reason for a sub-forum. In my experience there are guys & gals on here with a a wide range of budgets, resources & experiences ... from zero to hero. I think we all share a common bond & enjoy cars that run & handle well.

Instead of buying parts ... my suggestion would be investing your time in learning about suspensions & steering geometry ... and work on optimizing your car's geometry. That occasionally takes part, but not always.

At the last Goodguys AutoX in Pleasanton, Craig Johnson won the Street Machine class in none-too-fancy 63 Ford Falcon. I loved it, because I could tell from watching his car run on track that he had figured out the front end geometry better than guys with a lot more money in their cars.

This Forum is a good place to ask questions, share what you're doing and enjoy the sport without worrying about some jerk cutting on you or your ride.

Welcome, & let us know when you need advice.

[Tomswheels]

A decent sized front sway bar and some used sticky tires and you are ready to start. What size wheels do you have?

[Rod]

my 2 cents, ride with others, learn to drive the car, ride with fast autocrossers, ask questions (I.E. when do you decel when setting up a corner, how do you trail brake, when do you start your acceleration out of the corner) then drive your car and start from there

[Ron Sutton]

my 2 cents, ride with other learn to drive the car, ride with fast autocrossers, ask questions (I.E. when do you decal setting up a corner, how do you trail brake, when do you start your acceleration out of the corner) then drive your car and start from there

Great advice. And I found most of the drivers are open to ride-alongs.

[QuarterD25]

A decent sized front sway bar and some used sticky tires and you are ready to start. What size wheels do you have?


I second the sticky tires. They made a frustrating situation not so frustrating.

[Rod]

my 2 cents, ride with other learn to drive the car, ride with fast autocrossers, ask questions (I.E. when do you decal setting up a corner, how do you trail brake, when do you start your acceleration out of the corner) then drive your car and start from there

my smart phone isn't so smart it F'ed up all kinds of words on my last post



I second the sticky tires. They made a frustrating situation not so frustrating.

yes sticky tires help, (when your driving skill has surpassed the traction of your street tires) but some of the most fun I have had at SCCA, and AAX were in my girlfriends Porsche car with 300+ treadwear! hell we had to pry Mary out of the car because she didn't want to stop sliding that little sports car around the track

[rustomatic]

If possible, just go to some events and look under people's cars. You'll find that much out there was neither bought nor bolted on, but made/fabricated when guys/gals figured out what would really work. In many cases, money is better invested in a welder and an angle grinder than off-the-shelf parts; take your time and study...

[Ron Sutton]

If possible, just go to some events and look under people's cars. You'll find that much out there was neither bought nor bolted on, but made/fabricated when guys/gals figured out what would really work. In many cases, money is better invested in a welder and an angle grinder than off-the-shelf parts; take your time and study...

I agree & Craig Johnson in his 63 Ford Falcon is a great example. He won the Street Machine class at the last Good Guys AutoX event in Pleasanton. He does all the work on his car & makes most of the stuff himself. Regardless of how tame that car looks, I knew it was going to be quick when I watched the front tire geometry through his first run. He has a very small KPI/Caster split ... probably even positive ... and the front tires' contact patches were beautiful. You can't buy that in a store.

[boodlefoof]

I'm married and, while slightly less broke than I used to be, have a whole bunch of kids to feed.

When I was first building my '68 Camaro about 13 or 14 years back, I was really broke. I replaced the front suspension with new 2'' lowered coil springs and a tubular sway bar from Hotchkiss and swapped out the old rubber control arm bushings for poly. Out back, I replaced the saggy monoleafs with some stock replacement 5-leafs and used a 1'' lowering block to get the ride height down to match the front. I used some inexpensive KYB shocks all around. As I recall, the total cost of doing this at the time was about $750. It made an enormous difference.

Not sure how much prices have changed and what options are out there for your Mustang, but just simple upgrades to springs, shocks and bushings can make a big difference in handling.

[Merlin]

Welcome to wonderful world of auto-xing. You will get hooked. First is to make sure your car is in good working order, i.e. suspension bushing is good condition and not cracked or torn, Shocks that are not leaking, decent amount of brake pads left, fresh brake fluid, proper adjustment of rear shoe, if rear drums. Reduce the slop in steering, i.e steering coupler in good shape. Get a alignment, dial in as much negative camber as you can get and caster. Maybe a little toe out, if you can tolerate a little dartiness on the freeway. Use the tires you have already for a few events, but air them up from the normal pressure you run. A pyrometer is useful to determine even tire temp across the tread. Drive to the limit of the tires. Some people go straight for the Hoosier, bad mistake as the ultra grip can mask poor driving technique. There is more, but my mind is fried from the AAS auto-x today.

Cliff
369 CP Chevelle

[David Pozzi]

Here is how to improve the front geometry: http://home.bresnan.net/%7Edazed/drop
However it doesn't increase positive caster, which is important for auto crossing. You would need to combine the "Shelby Mod" with new A arms to get more caster, or perhaps move the holes more to the rear. I'm not up on Mustang suspension options.

[Craig510]

Thanks for all the props Ron. You make me sound like the poster boy for low dollar front suspension. I have been moving all week. Finally bought a house and I don't have my computer setup yet. All this talk lately about KPI/caster split makes me think I could do a little better. I can't remember my KPI on the spindles I made, I want to look that up and see about cutting up my other set of spindles for reduced KPI and shorten the steering arms a little more.

Including the Maier race front shocks I have about $700 into my front suspension and about a grand into power steering which is a requirement for autox.


Thanks for inviting me back over from LatG. It looks like things have improved around here.

Craig

[Ron Sutton]

You are the poster boy for do-it-yourself front suspension. As you shared with me & others, you had 9.5 degrees of caster when you won the GG AutoX in SM class. (for those following my threads ... Craig did this on his own, with no input from me.)

I just saw what I call "Pretty wheel angles" when you were on track.

I'm not sure I'd change your KPI until you see how much scrub radius you have. Keep that low to zero.

Take care !

[Derek69SS]

Buy a Miata.

It's the cheapest way to play...

[Ron Sutton]

Buy a Miata.

It's the cheapest way to play...

Derek, Derek ... Derek. I know you're kidding ... but a Miata? Craig would need to turn in his "man card." :lol:

Besides Craig has a built a cool, unique, awesome handling car in his garage, for very little money. I'm giving him props because I'm impressed.

[rustomatic]

Craig is an engineer, and he's a car guy; one of these traits is mostly genetic (our common disease), while the other is born of some decent training and a lot of discipline. Fortunately, with engineers like Bryce ("Project Blueprint") and Craig, both of whom constantly tweak on Falcons, liberal arts-types like me can continue to steal ideas, while screwing things up with some of my own (hare-brained ideas). There's a lot of good stuff to be learned here in the college of motorheads, and fortunately, it's free!

[79-TA]

Buy a Miata.

It's the cheapest way to play...

If your goal is autocrossing and you're being solution neutral, yes, this is a much better option.



As for the Mustang, just get out there and drive. The driver is always the biggest factor. Beating out high dollar cars with a primitive beater is always fun.



The best bang for your buck will come from reliable fade resistant brakes, sticky tires, and overall reliability (there's nothing worse than paying entry fees only to have to sit out to let the car cool etc.) A good alignment helps too.

Look into budgeting the following
- performance brake pads and brake fluid with a higher boiling point (autocrossing generally doesn't overheat the brakes, but it's silly to have to worry about.)
- track time!
- some good tires: 200 treadwear will let you play with the other muscle cars at events . . . though sizes might tempt/force you to get larger wheels
- whatever you think will break on the car (make sure your strut rod bushings aren't completely shot as that will make the car feel really weird)



Next you can make sure that the suspension is not only not broken, but not worn out. New bushings aren't overly expensive and simple fixes like steering boxes and rag joints can eliminate play in the steering.

Further down the road, look into addressing some of the car's more basic deficiencies. I'd say stiffen the chassis and replace the strut rods with lower A-arms.

[groho]

Thank you for all the feedback. My suspension is all new, with a shelby drop. Couldn't afford tubular and coil/overs. I should upgrade the shocks but what i have is fine to get me by and learn. As I read through this, 9.5 degrees of caster, geez! The best I can get without swapping parts and sitting directly on the shock towers is 3+ caster. You folks make this forum enjoyable..thanks.

[Tomswheels]

Now get out there and run that thing!

[Ron Sutton]

Now get out there and run that thing!

Love it. :revto9k:

[silvermonte]

A few weeks back a buddy and I took his stock 66 mustang to the Midwest Muscle Car challenge, he was on the track a fair amount of time. I think he did a total of around 35-40 runs and he had no problems. He wasnt the fastest but we sure did have fun, only thing we did was put some extra air in the tires and then let it rip.

the photo was taken by Burnt Bridge Images
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/07/66mustang_zps12e0d5f2-1.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/silvermonte/media/66mustang_zps12e0d5f2.jpg.html)

[Ron Sutton]

GroHo,

if you desire to learn about chassis set-ups & suspension tuning, there are chassis & suspension books... covering design, engineering, theories, tuning, etc ... I think the right book for a person depends on how in-depth they plan to get. There are great books, good books, ok books & horrible books written on the subject. Some books contain old school information ... some newer technology ... and some in-between.

I often recommend books, but the right one depends on the person's goals. Based on you being new to all of this, I would recommend these books, in this order. If at any point, it's get so complex, you're not enjoying it, that's a place to stop. On the other hand if you become hungry for more in-depth knowledge, then work your way through the list.

1. Herb Adams was the "go-to" guy in the 70's & 80's. Technology has advanced quite a bit, but this book is an excellent starting point. It's a good read & much of it is still relevant. Just be open minded that some suspension set-ups have advanced & changed dramatically. Go HERE (http://www.us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781557880550,00.html?Chassis_Engineering_HP105 5_Herb_Adams).

When it comes to books, they're all behind what professional race teams are doing. Top race teams with 30 Engineers, full Research & Development staffs & state-of-the-art testing technology ... are understandably reluctant to share info ... until it's so old it won't hurt them competitively. So with books, there will always be a lag.

Steve Smith race suspension books are the easiest to understand & has some what up to date stuff. Don't ignore it because it's oval track. While there are some differences ... handling is handling ... and NASCAR teams utilize cutting edge technology today. I recommend two books from them.

2. Here (http://www.ssapubl.com/product.aspx?nbr=S239)
3. Here (http://www.ssapubl.com/product.aspx?nbr=S295)

4 & 5. The best books ever are from Carroll Smith (passed away several years back). They are a little hard to read, for a rookie & non-engineer, but a very solid foundation The two I suggest you start with are "Engineer to Win" & "Tune to Win." Go HERE (http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/tune2win.html).

6. Finally, the most complex, in engineering speak, is from Mitchell & Mitchell, titled Race Car Vehicle Dynamics. See it HERE (http://books.sae.org/book-r-146/).

I have found this forum & Pro Touring people in general to be both knowledgeable & open to sharing. So don't be afraid to simply ask guys. You'll find they're open with information until you get close to beating them, and you have to figure out the last stuff all by yourself. Which is how it should be a competitive environment.


Best wishes.

[ochohill]

I've been wandering around this forum for some time and see most of you folks are very, very serious about your track time, cars and setups, and have the budgets to do so. me, I'm married and broke, and trying to put two kids through college......but....I have a 66 mustang coupe that i truly would like to autox and have weekend fun, but don't know where to start with proper setup without killing my wallet. Any ideas where to start? What reading do you suggest? I currently have a fairly stock but strong SBF 289, pro-built C4, 3:25 tracloc, subframes, 4.5 leaf, SSBC brakes, lowered, what you would consider bare bones. no I can't afford total control or maier racing setup. Suggestions. How bout a sub-forum for folks just starting out?

You have good modifications already started. If you haven't already the following are lower budget items:
affordable mods
-shelby drop
-roller spring perches
-1" sway bar front
-solid strut rods http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/mod-custom-forum/606660-simple-home-made-strut-rods.html
-battery to the trunk

not so affordable
-best shocks you can afford
-panhard bar
-dual plane intake and 4 barrel carb
-headers
-wider tires and wheels- 235/45/17 fit nicely under my 66 coupe


Save money for racing. You should get a bit faster each time out. When you no longer improve times, look for the next weak link in the car.

[Craig510]

I would get at least an 1.125" front swaybar. I have a 1" right now and it is not enough. The shelby drop and strut rods with rod ends make the biggest improvements. I was just at Maier's shop this morning. Mike is helping me out with some trick front shocks (very cool of him to help me out on the cheap). I just ordered a 1.25" sway bar from Ridetech (good deal with my GoodGuys certificate), but am a little bummed because I saw how the Maier's built tubular sway bars by cutting up the 1" ones, and everyone knows that I like to cut stuff up. I'll have my car out with the new shocks next Sunday 8/4 at the NorCal UFO autoX in Marina to see how they work.

I'll have a pretty wild setup with the adjustable remote reservoir shocks.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/07/SVTWheels_0127_zpsee474fdb-1.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/craig510/media/SVTWheels_0127_zpsee474fdb.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/07/SVTWheels_0125_zps198d574a-1.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/craig510/media/SVTWheels_0125_zps198d574a.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/07/SVTWheels_0124_zps6a3e8950-1.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/craig510/media/SVTWheels_0124_zps6a3e8950.jpg.html)

[DEIVIONCRX]

Even with crap tires and worn suspension i would get out there and drive. You will learn a lot more faster having to deal with less than perfect parts. If you can make the care behave and get faster while dealing with understeer and snap over, when you finally do get good parts on it you will be a even better driver. One of the reasons i like AutoX in the rain, it erases all the traction and forces you to become a lot smoother with your power on/turn in.