View Full Version : Pontiac intake manifolds
Does anyone know what the difference between the old Edelborck Torker manifolds and the New Torker II manifolds are?
I'm looking for a used intake to clean up instead of buying new. Visually it looks like the runners are a bit different and the bore on the Toker isn't square.
Anything else I'm missing. Would there be m,uch power difference between the 2?
It's been years since I read up on what the difference is but the Torker II doesn't have the step in the bottom of the plenum like the original. I think the the original was that way because of the q-jet and the way it flowed. Torker II is a square carb only.
The Torker II does not have the flow issues that the original did. Plus it looks better. lol
Roger Poirier
08-22-2005, 06:24 PM
It's been years since I read up on what the difference is but the Torker II doesn't have the step in the bottom of the plenum like the original. I think the the original was that way because of the q-jet and the way it flowed. Torker II is a square carb only.
The Torker II does not have the flow issues that the original did. Plus it looks better. lol
I believe the real issue is that the the Torker II works a little better at a lower RPM starting point. Unless your running for 1/4 mile et's. Buy what works for your budget.
R.P.
That explains a little bit. I'll try and find a used Toker II, I see them from time to time, just got to wait for another one to pop up.
why not just use a good perfomer?
It's got the Performer RPM (P4B) manifold on it right now.
Unfortunately I just don't know much about hte engine combination. The engine had previously been built by the guy I purchased the car from. He didn't build the engine himself, and didn't keep receipts so what's inside the engine is somewhat of a mystery.
I'm trying to put together a combination that will get me a solid 500 hp with an operating range between about 2500-6500. I was looking at a Comp Cams XE284H cam matched to the Torker II intake and a dominator style carb.
RP, you are correct on the better numbers lower in the RPM range with the Torker II.
JLM
The P4B is not a Performer RPM but the one before the first Performer. It was the P4B first then the Performer. Now they offer the Performer RPM as well.
What size motor are we talking about here? Personally, I don't like the single pattern cams especially with the D port heads. What casting are on your heads?
Jagarang
08-23-2005, 07:44 AM
I may have a Torker II from my stack of changed parts. I'll have to check.
RP, you are correct on the better numbers lower in the RPM range with the Torker II.
JLM
The P4B is not a Performer RPM but the one before the first Performer. It was the P4B first then the Performer. Now they offer the Performer RPM as well.
What size motor are we talking about here? Personally, I don't like the single pattern cams especially with the D port heads. What casting are on your heads?
The motor is a 455 .030 over. The heads are casting #62. I'm not sure if dished pistons were used or not so compression could be around 11.5:1 if dished pistons were not used. Again though without taking off the heads that would be hard to tell.
Use a compression gauge and you will get a rough idea. 62's on a 455 would be alot but I've used 670's on one but race fuel was a must. I have no experience with dished pistons but I've been told it's screws with the squish area of the head a little and you may lose some power because of it.
If your hood clearance can afford it I would go with the performer rpm hands down, however a lot of cars can't fit that intake without using a tiny air filter. You could always machine some material off of the fron tmounting pad
If your hood clearance can afford it I would go with the performer rpm hands down, however a lot of cars can't fit that intake without using a tiny air filter. You could always machine some material off of the fron tmounting pad
The car has the factory 350 hood (non 400 RA). I don't think clearance will be an issue.
Can you elaborate on why you would go with the RPM over the Torker II?
At that rate would you even change the manifold that is currently on the car? Would the Performer RPM have any advantage over the P4B that I have now?
Because RPM's have been proven to be the most all around best performers for pontiacs, the "torker" series was invented for earlier corvettes that had no hood clearance, It is a single plan design, and the runners are really short, not a very good combination. The performer RPM has been proven to give you the best of both worlds and is an excellent intake manifold, I am by no means an expert so you might call around to some pontiac guys like jim butler, or rocknroll engineering or others, also the pb4 is an ancient intake i used to have one, also you probably will have to run a super drop base cleaner and only a 3" air filter to clear the performer rpm on that car it is a tight squeeze, I would maybe just go to a performer, but ifyou feel like fitting the rpm that is definetly the way to go
The car had an offenhouser dual carb intake set under the stock hood. Clearance was really tight but it did fit. Likely the performer RPM would be the same way.
I've got a couple options then. From a power building perspective which is going to work best do you think?
I can:
1. Keep the P4B manifold on the car and swap out the carb
2. Put the Offenhouser manifold back on the car wtih 2 smaller carbs (sell my current carb and intake)
3. Sell my current intake and carb as well as the offenhouser manifold and purchase the Performer RPM manifold and new carb.
In either case I'd like to swap out the cam for something a little larger than what is in the engine now. I don't have specs but it's probably no more than a moderate upgrade from a stock cam. I'm looking for something that will provide power to 6000 and have a rough noticable idle.
The Performer RPM looks great in theory but I have no experience with it. None of my friends have ever run it either, I don't know why. The Torker II I know works great on the 455.
A friend, Larry Navarro, has a drop air cleaner base that allows him to run the stock shaker on a TA with Torker II's and Victors on the Pontiac motors with no problems. He is at the TA Nat's but I will call him when he gets back. He has a web site called WFOPerformance or something like that. You are not running a shaker but I think it may lower you air cleaner enough to clear.
my old 400 used to see 6,000 all day long, and it had almost a completely stock bottome end except for some ARP rod bolts, and it never blew! I had a comp extreme274 in it, decent idle also, sounded good. So if you have a 455 something a little bigger would be good. Not sure on what you should do with the intakes, however I switched from a PB4 to the RPM and it revved a lot better
my old 400 used to see 6,000 all day long, and it had almost a completely stock bottome end except for some ARP rod bolts, and it never blew! I had a comp extreme274 in it, decent idle also, sounded good. So if you have a 455 something a little bigger would be good. Not sure on what you should do with the intakes, however I switched from a PB4 to the RPM and it revved a lot better
I'm looking at a comp extream energry XE284H grind. The powerband is 2500-6500 on it though I probably won't take the engine past 6000. Either the RPM or Torker manifold fit that powerband.
I've got enough compression, stall and gear that I could probably go larger with the cam if I wanted, but I like the powerband that cam works under.
I did some more research and it seems the RPM does give better throttle response. I guess that was a given considering it's a dual plane versus a single.
As far as the cam, I would strongly suggest a dual pattern with more exhaust duration because the exhaust port is a little weak on Pontiac heads.
I did some more research and it seems the RPM does give better throttle response. I guess that was a given considering it's a dual plane versus a single.
As far as the cam, I would strongly suggest a dual pattern with more exhaust duration because the exhaust port is a little weak on Pontiac heads.
What do you mean by dual pattern? I'm not knowledgable with cam selection in the least.
Have any suggestions for a cam that works between 2000-6000 or around that range? I'd also like something that has a noticeable idle.
What dual pattern means is the duration, lift or both are different profiles. The Pontiac D Port head is a little on the exhaust side and requires more duration and lift to get the gases out. The round port heads are a little better on the exhaust but I still run dual patterns.
Call this guy and see what he suggest for your ap. http://PontiacDude.cc (http://pontiacdude.cc/) I know he has built some good horsepower for the street and track. You can also call Butler or a few others but I don't think I would call Rock and Roll Engineering. Do a little research on him and you will know why.
I've spoken with Jim Butler a couple months back. He recomended the XE284H grind.
Here's the specs on that grind.
Cam Style: Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2,300-6,500 RPM
Intake Duration 050 inch Lift: 240
Exhaust Duration 050 inch Lift: 246
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 240 int./246 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 284
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 296
Advertised Duration: 284 int./296 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.507
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.510
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.507 int./0.510 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees): 110
Intake Valve Lash (in): 0.000
Exhaust Valve Lash (in): 0.000
Computer Controlled: No
Grind Number: P XE284H-10
I was wrong about that cam, I thought it was a single pattern. I hope you do know not to twist that 455 past about 5500. What intake did Butler suggest with your combo.
He didn't actually suggest one. At the time I was planning on running the Torker II manifold.
What's the issue with the RPM? I could drop down to the 274H which has an 1800-6000 operating range.
I would stay with the one Butler suggested, those RPM numbers are mostly for the 400's. You can run a bigger cam in the 455 and get away with it.
The 455 has longer stroke coupled with 3.25 mains versus 3 inch mains with a 400. The rods are another issue. They are good but not great. I have seen a lot of low 12 second 455's that were shifted at 5200.
It's unfortunate I don't have receipts for the engine build. The previous owner did say the rotating assembly was forged as well as balanced. Regardless it would probably still be a good idea to keep it under 5500 I would imagine.
Roadrage David
08-31-2005, 12:35 PM
i have a dyno tested stroker 400 . eagle kit to 461 4.25 stroke, with port matchst torker II / XE284 / holly 850 ho aed / mild ported edel heads 2.19/1.77 valves 300 cfm / engine puts out 550 horse max rpm 6000 .. if you dont have 300 cfm heads with the "big valves" il would stay with the XE274 . performer rpm is a great manifold torkerII hase in some cases the advantige and no clearens problems . the origenal torkerII flows beter from the factory then victor/rpm/torker II .the new Tomawhawk manifold hase no clearens problem as wel . and in polished form is the best looker of them all . forgive mij spelling ...
ps standerd rods woned last long past 5500 rpm . a 400 stroker is a stronger combo then a 455 .
David, Did you dyno the Tomahawk intake? Did you use eagle rods or stock? What kind of toque numbers with you combo?
Roadrage David
09-01-2005, 02:13 PM
David, Did you dyno the Tomahawk intake? Did you use eagle rods or stock? What kind of toque numbers with you combo?
.. Wick the eagle stroker kit was used as it comes from them les there bearings . srp pistons eagle 6.8 bbc rods stroker crank ecetera . other 3/4 quarter grove barings where used. i did not dyno tested the tomowhawk manifold as the engine was dynod in verginia, and im in europe lolol . the tomowhawk so far so proves to be a looker insted of a serius new contender meaning it looks great but those not out perform the TorkerII ore the performer rpm .. il go with the torkerII if i where you . torque nr from my engine where 577 lbs feet starting at 2800 rpm max at 4300 rpm .. engine douwnslobe came at 5800 ,but it was still making 500 horse at 6000rpm . a bigger carb would make it make more power and max rpm would be 6200 . not bad for a mild NA toutchst intermidiate injun engine . a simple change of cam carb and some more mild head porting would give this combo around 625 horse .
Thanks for the info David. What E-Heads did you use, the 72cc or 87cc chambers. From what I have seen with the new Tomahawk it is a good intake but not the best. Who built your motor?
Roadrage David
09-01-2005, 10:27 PM
Wick we used the edel heads 87 cc , but as my engine builder said dont belive anything before you chekt it as the heads where actualy 85cc !! my engine builder is non other then pontiac goeroo Jim Lehart aka MR p body from cebtral verginia mashine sirves . he wrote the short block part in the new must have Jim Hands book!! how to build high performance pontiac engines .in the back of the book he gives out varius engine combo,s as thus the butlers kaufman ecetera. Jim was very wel known in the late 60,s eurly 70,s in the california street wars beating up the competition in a time where there was disrespect for the Pontiac name plate . his 69 GTO took lots of scalps and actualy never lost from 454 chevelles 455 buicks ore olds with his 400 injun . he hase been working engines all his life in varius parts of the USA in diferend shops and places . he disided to get his own company about 4 years ago . altho the Butlers and the Kaufmans are the most wel known they are to big in my upinion to get that old fasion small touwn sirves .also if i buy a lets say Butler engine i dont thingk one of the Butlers actualy workt on it!!!. last pontiac in the park drag weekend in virginia 4 of the 7 engines that won where from his hands . annyway nobody but him would toutch my engine lololol .. if you go to performance years site then to there forums race/street ecetera select find then put his name in there mr p body . his posts will come forward . he always give free advice .his nolige is not limited to injun engines he hase won several best engine awards with mopar ford en chevy , but he is injun at hearth because he claims its the best street engine! . about the tomowhawk if you into the bling bling stuf a polished one with a aluminium valy pan would look the bisenis lololol .
David, a few more questions. Is that a 700R4 trans you are running? What kind of power steering pump and pullies are you useing?
That's a nice looking engine you've got going there David. Thanks for the information.
Due to hood clearance issues, I've decided I am going to run the Torker II manifold on the engine. Likely with an 800 cfm Thunder AVS carb on top. For the time being I'm sure if I will do a cam swap or not. I really want to go with a set of E-heads on the motor and may go with the new cam at that time.
I was really hoping to be able to make about 500 on the engine without having to almost completely build it again from the ground up. I don't think I'll be able to get there without the use of better heads however. It's just got a set of 72cc #62's on it right now.
JLM, 62's are some good heads. I have a friend that has them on his 474 without the dished pistons (about 12:1) and he is making some very power. 11.60's in a 4 speed '79 TA with no traction devices or weight reductions except removal of A/C components. Car even has T-Tops.
Did you find why it was running crappy the other day?
JLM, 62's are some good heads. I have a friend that has them on his 474 without the dished pistons (about 12:1) and he is making some very power. 11.60's in a 4 speed '79 TA with no traction devices or weight reductions except removal of A/C components. Car even has T-Tops.
Did you find why it was running crappy the other day?
I'm pretty sure it's a tuning problem with the carb. Maybe something is up with the idle circuit. It's hard to tell.
I'm going to work on the engine this weekend after I get the fenders and valance hung on the car (getting close to paint now).
Pretty much what I want from this car is to run at least quicker than my 2003 Cobra that I had. It clicked off a
[email protected] at Bandimere Speedway. From a power output I'd like to have enough to go atleast a 12.79.
Roadrage David
09-02-2005, 09:01 AM
David, a few more questions. Is that a 700R4 trans you are running? What kind of power steering pump and pullies are you useing?
..... Wick thats a level III tr2004r transmission from bowtie over drive good for 630 hp!. the pullies came from rodney red radiators , but we needed to custom a bit to fit. the powerstearing pump is from DSE with a custom made braket
Roadrage David
09-02-2005, 09:05 AM
That's a nice looking engine you've got going there David. Thanks for the information.
Due to hood clearance issues, I've decided I am going to run the Torker II manifold on the engine. Likely with an 800 cfm Thunder AVS carb on top. For the time being I'm sure if I will do a cam swap or not. I really want to go with a set of E-heads on the motor and may go with the new cam at that time.
I was really hoping to be able to make about 500 on the engine without having to almost completely build it again from the ground up. I don't think I'll be able to get there without the use of better heads however. It's just got a set of 72cc #62's on it right now.
.........JLM forget the thunder carb . go for a holly 850 ho AED .. ADVANDS ENGINE DISIGN .. THERE CARBS ARE THE BISENIS
.........JLM forget the thunder carb . go for a holly 850 ho AED .. ADVANDS ENGINE DISIGN .. THERE CARBS ARE THE BISENIS
Do you have a part # for these? I'm searching jegs and summit and not coming up with anything as far as advanced engine design.
Is this the standard 4150 carbs?
Also would you go vacuum or mechanical secondaries? Car is a TH400 auto with a 3000rpm stall. in a 1969 Firebird coupe.
Roadrage David
09-02-2005, 01:25 PM
http://www.aedperformance.com/ here is the website of the real stuff lololol ... jlm for more tech info ore poncho injun perf parts http://www.centralvirginiamachine.com this is the man you need .....
My question is what are you asking these questions over here for?
No disrespect to any of the knowledge and experience here but if you are into Pontiacs, the two sites to go to are PY and classical pontiac. Both have pretty good search functions but PY is easier to navigate. Anyway, before you buy a bunch of parts, Buy Jim Hand's "building Max performance Pontiac V8s" book. Read it, put it away, then read twice more again. It has a lot of "recipies for 400s, 428s and 455s.
I've built plenty of SBCs and SBFs but the Pontiac motor is by far the most challenging relative to part's selection because it's easy to select parts that work in RPM ranges where the engine does not spend much time and loose performance. :banghead:
Here are some links to get you started. The last two are probably most on point.
http://216.178.81.108/forums/
http://www.classicalpontiac.com/
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/featuredcars.html
http://www.classicfirebird.com/hand/hand.html
http://www.dapa.org/jhpages/pontiac-cams.htm
Roadrage David
09-15-2005, 03:04 AM
lolol the above information that i gave is from my engine builder Jim LEhard aka mr p body aka central virginia mashine sirves. he wrote the complete short block chapter in Jim Hands book , so it seems he found the right info here on this site!!!!! lololol ps
he is the first one in the back of the book to give 4 ore so engine combo,s
This is what I like to call information overload. I've spent pretty much the entire day going over this thread again, as well as the links posted. There's sure a lot of different information.
What makes it even more mind boggling is the fact that I have NO CLUE how my motor was built. All I know for sure is it's a 455 block with #62's on top an a P4B Edelbrcok intake with a 700cfm edelbrock performer carb.
The #62's on top of a likely 462 cid engine worries me sligthly. I don't have any audible detonation but the last thing I need is to be rebuilding a motor in a couple thousand miles.
I was considering Central Virginia for doing my 455 short block but realized most of the fast street Pontiacs are running essentially stock short blocks and there was no need to drag my motor cross country for quality but basic machine work. Mr. P-body's recommendations on both PY and the Ames site as well as Hand's book have been very valuable to many including my self. :hail:
Staying on subject, I know someone running the RPM, 850 Holley and a 14" drop base cleaner on their 69 Firebird. He has the stock 400 hood but I don't think that matters. Generally, the RPM is considered to be the best all around manifold for a 455 provided you have the hood clearance. After that, either the Performer, stock or P4B with an open spacer seem to work well. Mixed results with the single planes but IMHO, a prepped 455 will work better with a single plane manifold than either the Performer, P4B or stock manifold without the spacer. If you can fit the spacer on any of the dual planes, you should have just got a RPM in the first place.
I'll have to weight until I get the hood on to take measurements but I don't think I'll have an issue. There was an offenhouser dual quad manifold on it prior to the p4b that sat pretty high. I'm sure I can get the RPM to fit properly.
Bird of Fire
09-18-2005, 11:07 AM
#62 heads is definately too much compression for a 455 motor. 72CC's if it's a YT code from a 1969 428 motor, otherwise it's even smaller cc wise. You definately need to check and see what the CR is. You'd probably be better off switching to the larger chambered 6X heads from the 70's with a mild port.
The #62's I have are the YT code 428 heads. I am however at about 5000 ft above sea level. I'm squishing quite a bit less air than at sea level, and that does help.
I don't have any audible detonation or ping from the motor and any load or any throttle position. Before long I'd like to go with a set of eheads or the KRE aluminum heads. More of a compression buffer plus better flow and lighter weight. Being a fully time college student and working primarily to pay for that doesn't leave $$ in the budget for new heads though unfortunately.
Powered by vBulletin®