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TTR
08-21-2005, 07:23 PM
I just bought a BS3 Gen3 and am a little confused about setting it up for sequential. The manual is vague and when I called Precision Turbo I didn't get my questions answered either. What distributor do I need and how do I set it up? The only dual sync distributor I can find is an Accel 77100T. I think it will work but I am not sure about the reference angle and which connectors to wire it up with. Do I set it up at 50* BTDC? The crank sensor and cam sensor obviously must be used but what about the HEI connector and the white "points" lead? I have read and reread the manual and it is just not clear to me. I don't want to buy a crank trigger if I don't have to.

I am installing it on a SBC 383 with a GT42R turbo. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


Tim

SSMOORE
08-22-2005, 12:06 AM
you can use a msd 2345. It provides the cam and crank sync. The problem is the reluctor tabs and the rotor need to be out of phase. In other words from msd they are set to trigger at the same time. But the computer needs atleast 10 degrees to make its calculations. So basically what you do is roll your engine to 50 degrees btdc and center one of the reluctor tabs with the pick up. Now this is where it gets difficult, now you roll the motor to 30 derees or whatever the timing that your motor makes max torque and line the rotor up with the number one terminal on the cap. So you need a adjustable rotor and the 2345 doesnt have it and there cap adapt kit with the adjustable rotor wont work on that unit without modification. I sent mine in and had them adapt it. Or you can drive out the pin in the reluctor wheel and move it then tack it where it needs to be. The easiest way to do it would be to run a msd billet locked out distributor and break of all the reluctor tabs but one and use it for the cam sync. Then run a crank trigger for the the crank signal, This makes it pretty straight forward as your dealing with 2 seperate components and it requires no modifications. A accel distributor will not work with a bs3 as its setup for a 6 degree reference angle. Atleast if your wanting to use it as intended with the sync lights and such.

For wiring you only use the hei wires if you are using a factory style ignition , basically plug and play. example a small cap gm computer controlled hei distributor.. For a inductive pick up distributor you use only the points wire and you will connect it to the white wire on a ignition box like a 6al or 7al. The cam and and crank sync wires from the distributor or crank trigger if used will connect to the bs3 . So basically what happens is the bs3 reads the inputs from the the syncs then it will tell the ignition box to fire the coil thru the points wire after it makes its calculations.

I hear ya on the bs3 manual. I think john assumes that everbody knows this stuff. He wrote a whole paragraph on how to load the cd in you cdrom drive but but gives you no info on whats required to setup a ignition system to work with his ecu.

Man I hope you can understand this because Im typing this as im falling asleep..lol. So excuse me if I have mispelled alot of words and im not perfectly clear.



steve

camcojb
08-22-2005, 06:59 AM
That's a bummer on the Accel distributor; I was planning on going that way. Maybe I'll set up a crank trigger, but with the LT1 not sure how much more work that'll be.

I have the MSD computer controlled HEI now but I wasn't going to run sequential. Now that I have traction control I need to run sequential, so it's either the 2345 MSD and let them mod it like you did, or set up a crank trigger.

Jody

96Z28SS
08-22-2005, 08:31 AM
I ran a crank trigger on my LT1 its real easy when you have an ATI balancer.

see pics of my motor at www.96z28ss.cz28.com

I don't recommend the Accell unit. I tried the dual sync Accell it was a major pain in the A$$ to make it work, and get the cam and crank set up. Also if anything on the distributor goes bad your car is down.
If you split the signals and put a crank trigger in front balancer then cam sync in distributor if the cam sync fails you just go into the computer and take it out of sequential and the car will run in bank to bank mode.

TTR
08-22-2005, 08:45 AM
Lot's of good info Steve, thanks for your reply. I think I can run with that and make it work. Any idea on the inductive delay for the crank trigger? I think the default is 16uS.
I was starting to question my decision to go SEFI, being that I am already thousands over budget and the BS3 manual is a real head scratcher. Things are starting to come into focus.

Thanks again,

Tim

SSMOORE
08-22-2005, 08:46 AM
Here is a cut and paste I took from my fast xfi manual that gives more detail and explains it better than I can. I hope this is legal if not let me know and iI will delete it. The fast xfi manual even has a video of them setting it up that really helps but I dont think it can be posted.


6.2.1.1 Magnetic Pickup Distributor or Crank Trigger Ignition

If you are using a magnetic pickup distributor or crank trigger ignition, set the Crank Ref. Angle (*BTDC) parameter to 50 degrees. Roll the motor over to 50 degrees BTDC on cylinder #1. With this type of ignition setup, the ECU requires a 10 degree margin between the reference angle and the highest amount of advance you will run; this means that with a 50 degree reference angle, you can run up to 40 degrees of timing. NOTE - If you want to run more than 40 degrees of timing, you need to set the reference angle proportionally higher than 50. For example:

Total engine timing of 42* + 10* = 52* Minimum crank reference angle

If you are using a crank trigger:

Center the pickup on one of the magnets in the trigger wheel. Now, roll the motor to wherever you plan to run your ignition timing at the RPM where your engine produces the most torque (30 degrees, as an example). Rotate the distributor until the rotor tip is directly lined up with the #1 spark plug terminal.

If you are using the pickup in your distributor:

With the motor still at 50 BTDC, remove the cap and rotor and center one of the reluctor tabs with the magnetic pickup in the distributor. If you have a phasable rotor, roll the motor to wherever you plan to run your ignition timing at the RPM where your engine produces the most torque (30 degrees, as an example). Adjust the rotor position (WITHOUT rotating the distributor housing) until the rotor tip is directly lined up with the #1 spark plug terminal. If you do not have a phasable rotor, you may need to reposition the reluctor wheel on the distributor shaft so that your rotor phase can be optimized without changing the 50 degree crank reference angle.

If you are using the pickup in your distributor as a Cam input (for sequential operation):

The ECU requires a single cam input per engine cycle. So the distributor needs to have a single reluctor tab. On a typical V8 engine, the cam input can occur between 10* and 80* degrees before the crank input. So if the crank is set at 50* BTDC on cylinder #1, the cam can be set between 60* and 130* BTDC on cylinder #1. For example:

50* + 10* = 60*
50* + 80* = 130*

Roll the motor to somewhere in that range. Remove the cap and rotor and center the reluctor tab with the magnetic pickup in the distributor, then tighten the distributor hold down so the distributor housing can not move. If you have a phaseable rotor, roll the motor to wherever you plan to run your ignition timing at the RPM where your engine produces the most torque (30 degrees, as an example). Adjust the rotor position (WITHOUT rotating the distributor housing) until the rotor tip is directly lined up with the #1 spark plug terminal. If you do not have a phaseable rotor, you may need to reposition the reluctor wheel on the distributor shaft so that your rotor phase can be optimized while still positioning the cam input in the allowable range. If the cam input cannot be positioned in the allowable range, the firing order settings in the calibration file may need to be changed. See the Firing Order Synchronization section for more detail.

VIDEO DEMONSTRATION: Installing a Crank Trigger

VIDEO DEMONSTRATION: Rotor Phasing


IMPORTANT NOTE With the O.E. ignition strategies listed below, you will not be able to run less timing advance than the programmed Crank Ref. Angle (*BTDC) parameter. For example, if you are running a GM HEI ignition with a 6 degree Crank Ref. Angle (*BTDC) parameter, you will not be able to run less than 6 degrees of timing advance

SSMOORE
08-22-2005, 08:53 AM
Jody if you want to have a msd 2345 setup correctly call msd and talk to victor contraras. He was the person I dealt with and will know exactly has to be done. I hope you have room for it tho with your hogan manifold as the cap adapt setup uses the bigger ford cap. I think its 1 inch bigger, which is good if you have room as it helps with spark scatter.


steve

camcojb
08-22-2005, 02:50 PM
Jody if you want to have a msd 2345 setup correctly call msd and talk to victor contraras. He was the person I dealt with and will know exactly has to be done. I hope you have room for it tho with your hogan manifold as the cap adapt setup uses the bigger ford cap. I think its 1 inch bigger, which is good if you have room as it helps with spark scatter.


steve

Thanks Steve, I think I have plenty of room.

Jody

camcojb
08-22-2005, 03:01 PM
I ran a crank trigger on my LT1 its real easy when you have an ATI balancer.

see pics of my motor at www.96z28ss.cz28.com

I don't recommend the Accell unit. I tried the dual sync Accell it was a major pain in the A$$ to make it work, and get the cam and crank set up. Also if anything on the distributor goes bad your car is down.
If you split the signals and put a crank trigger in front balancer then cam sync in distributor if the cam sync fails you just go into the computer and take it out of sequential and the car will run in bank to bank mode.

That is a cool option too, but with my homemade brackets and idlers to mount everything low it'll require some more fabbing to get that pickup mounted. My guess is it will be cheaper at this point to replace the distributor with that MSD unit than buy that balancer and crank trigger kit.

I do appreciate the info though, very trick build you have there.

96Z28SS
08-22-2005, 07:04 PM
That is a cool option too, but with my homemade brackets and idlers to mount everything low it'll require some more fabbing to get that pickup mounted. My guess is it will be cheaper at this point to replace the distributor with that MSD unit than buy that balancer and crank trigger kit.

I do appreciate the info though, very trick build you have there.

Thats my old car, i sold it in January. As you know I now have a 69 Camaro. When is the 4 link coming? j/k
That 96 SS I built made 580rwhp and 650rwtq.

camcojb
08-22-2005, 10:33 PM
Thats my old car, i sold it in January. As you know I now have a 69 Camaro. When is the 4 link coming? j/k
That 96 SS I built made 580rwhp and 650rwtq.

They now think they'll be shipping this week. We have our fingers crossed. I will say our 5 orders will be the first five to go according to DSE, we got them in first.

Jody

TTR
08-23-2005, 01:37 PM
Ouch!!!!!!!! Another 500 bucks up in smoke. The 2345 distributor was $439 and the cap-adapt is about $60. On a brighter note, Victor from MSD is sending the phaseable rotor for free! Nothin cheap about this turbo business.

Tim

SSMOORE
08-23-2005, 07:51 PM
Yea it aint cheap but neither is a regular dist plus a crank trigger. Sounds like you moving in the right direction now and I hope it all works out. Let me know how it turns out.


steve