Need to upgrade brakes

[Removed user as requested]

Hey,

My 69 mustang runs 16x8/16x7 wheels with 4 wheel drums.

Is there a fairly cheap 'do now' disc conversion I can do for the front?

I been quoted around 1100 for parts alone just to change the 2 front brakes from drums to discs and 900 in labor to do it. So basically 2000 dollars to get 2 front drums changed to 2 discs. This is a 'stock' 69 upgrade apparently.

Since I am going to go 17x12s and 17x8s later, I could then spend the money on wildwoods etc. However my car is not the safest thing with the 4 wheel drums right now, but I dont want to spend 2000 if something for my 17s to change over will be like 4000 or something.

Rather just step it up to get discs for safety and good enough to do now.

Any help?

[Ron Sutton]

Wilwood offers complete front kits for from $785 to $825.

http://wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitSearch.aspx?year=1969&make=Ford&model=Mustang&option=Drum+Brake+Front+Spindle.&whl=15

[Removed user as requested]

Looks Good.

Are wilwood generally accepted as the 'best' brakes?

Ive heard of RSS and Baer/Bear/Beer (or however it is spelt/said).

[Ron Sutton]

Hi G-man,

I have a 2 part answer for you.


1. About Wilwood ... they are one of the top performance & racing brake companies in the nation and are on more winning race cars than any other brand. Are they "the best" ? Hmmm ... tough question, because that answer depends on the specific application, criteria, each person's goals ... and "the experts" opinions.

Even among knowledgeable brake experts, there are many differing philosophies about what works best for specific applications. And ... different people have different opinions on what they like or what they feel works best. If you post a forum thread with the title: "Need advice on best brand of brakes to buy" ... you will get a dozen or so different suggestions. That's not all bad. You just need to sort through the advice & figure out what is right for you.

I find all too often ... with "certain personalities" ... that if they have made a choice for themselves ... then that is the only right choice & if anyone else chooses different they are wrong. :-) I.E. If they use Quaker State oil ... then everyone should use Quaker State. If they bought XYZ brakes ... then nothing is better. If they drink Coors ... then you're not a man if you don't drink Coors. you know the guys I'm referring to.

In my 35 years of racing, I have worked with Performance Friction, Wilwood, AP, Brembo, Hawk, Red Devil, Tilton, Howe & US Brake. (For street applications, we also have worked with stock, Baer, CPP & SSBC brakes.) They are all good companies. They all make some good products. In fact, because we have used their stuff so much, I have found certain pieces I like from each one.

For serious race teams in Indy, NASCAR, etc., no one offers more technical support, advice & expertise than Darrick Dong at Performance Friction. He is the man. On the other end of the support spectrum is Hawk. I like some of the Hawk Pads, but it is harder to get usable technical information from them, so you have to test to find out what works for you. Wilwood offers great technical support online, on the phone, in person & at car events. They have grown from small roots to be a huge company & support the markets they are in.

I feel Brembo makes the best calipers for extreme race applications ... but are VERY expensive ... and other calipers offer close performance for a fraction of the price. In my experience, Wilwood is the leader here. Best caliper for the money. For certain moderate braking applications, US Brake offers a "good" rotor, so inexpensively priced, that racers can afford to change them more often. In more aggressive braking applications, we have had good success with AP's J-hook rotors (love them on the front), and they are priced within range of most.

For brake fluid, racers with moderate braking run the Wilwood 570 fluid ... it works fine ... and is very affordable compared to other brake fluids. We ran it in our 9 race teams with great success. But, in severe braking applications, the best fluids are AP & Motul ... at 3-4x the price of Wilwood. Master Cylinders? Tilton is tops (by a small margin). But Wilwood offers a similar product that works very well for 1/3 less price.

When it comes to performance or racing brakes, the entire Wilwood line is excellent, priced well & they offer good support. To get better braking performance in severe, professional level, racing applications, top teams with big budgets lean to something along the lines of a Brembo/Performance Friction/AP combination ... at 3x the price. (or they may get it for free in a sponsorship package.)

That leads me to part 2 of my answer ...

2. You asked ... "Is there a fairly cheap 'do now' disc conversion I can do for the front?" ... and said ... "I been quoted around 1100 for parts alone just to change the 2 front brakes from drums to discs and 900 in labor to do it. So basically 2000 dollars to get 2 front drums changed to 2 discs."

The Wilwood package I linked you to is a great brake upgrade package for your 15" wheels, going from drum to disc for around $800. From my experience, you are not going to find a better brake package from the other "street brake" companies ... and stay near the cost of the Wilwood package. The only way to get better brakes than Wilwood would be to go extreme & use racing pieces from Brembo, AP, etc. ... which will cost a LOT of dough.

To achieve your goal of finding a ... "fairly cheap 'do now' disc conversion I can do for the front" ... from my experience, in my opinion, Wilwood is your best choice ... and it is priced 30% less than what you have been quoted.

Now, hopefully, others will chime in with their opinions. You can learn from all our experiences, do your shopping & make the best choice for you. Best wishes & don't be afraid to ask questions.

[killer69]

That about answers it.

[andrewb70]

Gman,

There are also various companies that offer brackets that will allow you to adopt late model OEM brake components to your classic Mustang. The advantage here is that you can source parts almost anywhere in case you need service. OEM parts also have dust seals on the pistons that I don't believe any aftermarket company offers. For a street car this is desirable, while for a race car, this is a fire hazard. Again, it depends on what you want to accomplish.

Personally, as much as I try to pretend that I have a "race car," I know better. I try to pick components that offer an improvement over 40 year old technology, but also offer benefits in terms of longevity and easy availability of parts.

Andrew

[Jeff70]

A kit from Tobin at Kore3 will use off the shelf rotors and calipers (Corvette) so you can walk into any dealer or parts store and buy replacement parts with ease. Thats always a great option.

[andrewb70]

A kit from Tobin at Kore3 will use off the shelf rotors and calipers (Corvette) so you can walk into any dealer or parts store and buy replacement parts with ease. Thats always a great option.

Unfortunately, Kore3 doesn't offer front brakes for Fords...

Andrew

[Jeff70]

Actually he does have a bracket for the 69 Ford with drum spindles, if I remember correct he said he developed it for a local guy with a 69 Cougar. Its not on the website probably best to drop him a email and see if he can help out.

[Ron Sutton]

I try to pick components that offer an improvement over 40 year old technology, but also offer benefits in terms of longevity and easy availability of parts.

Andrew

Sound advice, especially for this application.

[andrewb70]

Actually he does have a bracket for the 69 Ford with drum spindles, if I remember correct he said he developed it for a local guy with a 69 Cougar. Its not on the website probably best to drop him a email and see if he can help out.

That's good to know. I have done business with Tobin before and will do so again. He is a great resource to the community.

Andrew

[Ron Sutton]

If Tobin at Kore3 offers a kit, You should consider it as well. His stuff is well engineered & he offers knowledgeable support.

[Removed user as requested]

Thanks guys. I will go the wilwoods. My car is a street car but I do want very good stopping capacity. To me what makes a good brake is a brake that does what it is supposed to do. I like light weight and serious stopping power. Going by price those wilwoods are nice. Appreciate the help

[72BBSwinger]

The only thing I dont like about Wilwoods, and its just ME, are the size of the brake pads themselves. They are small and I dont see them lasting long because of that. I am talking about the ones offered in the 4 pot systems, I dont even know what the 6 pot pads look like.

[Ron Sutton]

Swinger,

I don't think it's just you. I look at pad area & volume too. It is important to performance at track days & wear on the Street too. Auto-X, not so much.

The criteria here for G-man is getting him a ... "fairly cheap 'do now' disc conversion I can do for the front" with his 15" wheels, until he upgrades later to the 17" wheels & better brakes ... for under $1100 in parts. The kit 140-11072 is a "good" disc brake kit for $825 that will be a BIG improvement over his drum brakes. This kit uses the Wilwood 4-piston forged Dynalite calipers with a pad area of 6.36 & pad volume of only 2.1. Not ideal, but again, big step up over his drum brakes & low cost. (Dynalite is a good caliper, but too small for serious track action in heavy cars.)

If G-man desired to spend more money for his 15" wheel brake set-up, the 6-piston kit #140-12947 is better, but costs $1100. This kit uses the Dynapro 6-piston caliper. (Better Caliper) It has a pad area of 7.3 & volume of 2.4.

A LOT of Pro-Touring folks are going to the Wilwood Forged Narrow Superlite 6-piston Caliper. It's a proven track performer (a good step up from the Dynapro, even though they are both 6-piston calipers) with a pad area of 8.2 & volume of 3.8.

But, I prefer more pad area than that (and more piston size for braking force). The big GM brakes have a pad area of 10.0 & volume of 3.9. I prefer that for the front end. Wilwood makes a nice, billet aluminum, machined floating caliper (the D52) ... available with twin 2.0" stainless steel pistons (instead of 1 big (2 15/16") piston as the stock or clone calipers) for flatter brake pad contact & wear. It comes red or black powder coated for looks, and is a good brake caliper.

The cost (only $178 each versus $300+/-) makes people underestimate this brake caliper, but it does it all ... strong design, light weight, flat pad contact ... plus a VERY LARGE PAD AREA & big pad volume. When we run solid mount calipers, we typically make the rotor float. With this floating caliper, there is no need, so we solid mount the rotor, which is simpler, less maintenance & less cost. :cool:

[Removed user as requested]

I have 16 " wheels not 15 if that changes anything...

[Ron Sutton]

Sorry, my error on wheel size. No, not really.

Did you read the discussion between Swinger & I ? (That just sounded weird.)

For $1100, you can buy a better brake system that will fit on your 16" wheels, with the 6-piston kit #140-12947. But the $825 kit will be a big improvement over the drums, until you go to 17" wheels.

Take care !

[Removed user as requested]

Hey,

Yes I did read that is why I wondered if the '16"' wheels make a difference over the 15 you stated. I do not know anything about brakes. All I know is, they fit where the wheels are and are supposed to stop the car. The faster a brake can slow you down the 'better' I assume the brake is.

Through the replies I notice that brake pad size and volume make a difference on how long the brakes last?

I assume 'brake pad size' means 'faster stopping power' while Volume means 'will last longer thus replacements are done less often'

for normal driving how long should those 825 dollar ones last considering they have a smaller diameter and less volume over the other one you mentioned? Is it a significant difference like 1 year vs 5 years (i know sounds dumb but as stated, dont know anything here)

I also seen some have holes on the metal disc and others do not... that means?

Also do I want a manual brake setup or a Power assisted brake setup? Pros-Cons to each? Do the power ones 'stop' better or all it does is assist foot, but the stopping capacity is identical between both?

[Ron Sutton]

Hey,

Yes I did read that is why I wondered if the '16"' wheels make a difference over the 15 you stated. I do not know anything about brakes. All I know is, they fit where the wheels are and are supposed to stop the car. The faster a brake can slow you down the 'better' I assume the brake is.

Stopping faster, in shorter distances, is the goal, but there are additional concerns when picking a brake system. Kind of like horsepower. You want a lot, but there is more to a car or engine than just power output.




Through the replies I notice that brake pad size and volume make a difference on how long the brakes last?

I assume 'brake pad size' means 'faster stopping power' while Volume means 'will last longer thus replacements are done less often'


No, brake pad size (surface area) has nothing to do with stopping power. This confuses most people. But a bigger pad applies the same braking pressure to the rotor as a smaller pad. It is just spread out more. Pad size (surface area) affects wear. Bigger pad/more surface area = less/slower pad wear. Smaller pad/less surface area = more/quicker pad wear.

Pad volume (surface area x thickness) affects the pads ability to absorb heat. Smaller pad area = more sensitive to heat & more susceptible to failing from heat. Larger pad area = less sensitive to heat & less susceptible to failing from heat. This is more critical in repetitive, hard braking situations like road racing.




for normal driving how long should those 825 dollar ones last considering they have a smaller diameter and less volume over the other one you mentioned? Is it a significant difference like 1 year vs 5 years (i know sounds dumb but as stated, dont know anything here)

Not that significant at all. The smaller pads ... comparing these two calipers we're discussing ... will wear about 15% quicker under similar braking conditions. But the pad cost is very different. $45 a set for the 4-piston Dynalite BP-10 pads. $86 for the same BP-10 compound pad for the 6-piston Dynapro caliper. SO ... changing them 15% more often ... but saving close to half price. Your call, of course.

P.S. Both of these kits have 12.19" vented, brake rotors. The 6-piston Dynapro caliper kit is only going to offer 5.1% more braking force. So, in your situation here where the goal is to upgrade to discs over drums ... as a "hold me over until I go 17" wheel brake set-up ... I'd recommend the $825 kit with 4-piston Dynalites.




I also seen some have holes on the metal disc and others do not... that means?
Most performance rotors are offered "drilled" or solid/undrilled. Some people will tell you they run cooler, but experienced brake experts debate this. (The vanes inside the rotor have way more affect on cooling.) Drilled rotors have pros & cons. Pros are they make the disc lighter (rotating mass) for quicker acceleration & deceleration ... and they do "clean" the pad a bit. Con's are they wear the pads out quicker, can not absorb the heat as well as a solid rotor (because they have less mass) & fail easier from heat & sooner. When they fail, it is often with cracks between the holes.

Now having said all that, I LOVE drilled rotors for short track & autocross racing for their lighter mass ... and long tracks too, ONLY IF the car is designed to properly cool the rotors. (Which, of course, it should be.) But pads & rotors have to be inspected after every race & replaced very, very often, driving up the cost of operation. For street driving, I prefer solid rotors. Just my opinion & preference from experience. Of course the holes "look cool" ... so there's that. :twothumbs



Also do I want a manual brake setup or a Power assisted brake setup? Pros-Cons to each? Do the power ones 'stop' better or all it does is assist foot, but the stopping capacity is identical between both?

Manual & power assisted brake systems can be designed to provide the same braking force. This of course has to be designed in & include the whole system (pedal ratio, M/C piston(s), Caliper pistons, rotors, etc.) "Power assisted" offers the benefit its name implies. You have a power booster (vacuum or hydraulic) helping your foot apply pressure, so the car brakes well, "easier & with less effort." This a preference decision. You don't have to change how your car is set up know ... to add these front disc brakes.

But, you can simply replace your factory drum front brakes with a good disc brake setup from Wilwood or other manufacturer ... without changing your Mustang's master cylinder ... or changing from or to a power booster.

[Removed user as requested]

Stopping faster, in shorter distances, is the goal, but there are additional concerns when picking a brake system. Kind of like horsepower. You want a lot, but there is more to a car or engine than just power output.





No, brake pad size (surface area) has nothing to do with stopping power. This confuses most people. But a bigger pad applies the same braking pressure to the rotor as a smaller pad. It is just spread out more. Pad size (surface area) affects wear. Bigger pad/more surface area = less/slower pad wear. Smaller pad/less surface area = more/quicker pad wear.

Pad volume (surface area x thickness) affects the pads ability to absorb heat. Smaller pad area = more sensitive to heat & more susceptible to failing from heat. Larger pad area = less sensitive to heat & less susceptible to failing from heat. This is more critical in repetitive, hard braking situations like road racing.





Not that significant at all. The smaller pads ... comparing these two calipers we're discussing ... will wear about 15% quicker under similar braking conditions. But the pad cost is very different. $45 a set for the 4-piston Dynalite BP-10 pads. $86 for the same BP-10 compound pad for the 6-piston Dynapro caliper. SO ... changing them 15% more often ... but saving close to half price. Your call, of course.

P.S. Both of these kits have 12.19" vented, brake rotors. The 6-piston Dynapro caliper kit is only going to offer 5.1% more braking force. So, in your situation here where the goal is to upgrade to discs over drums ... as a "hold me over until I go 17" wheel brake set-up ... I'd recommend the $825 kit with 4-piston Dynalites.




Most performance rotors are offered "drilled" or solid/undrilled. Some people will tell you they run cooler, but experienced brake experts debate this. (The vanes inside the rotor have way more affect on cooling.) Drilled rotors have pros & cons. Pros are they make the disc lighter (rotating mass) for quicker acceleration & deceleration ... and they do "clean" the pad a bit. Con's are they wear the pads out quicker, can not absorb the heat as well as a solid rotor (because they have less mass) & fail easier from heat & sooner. When they fail, it is often with cracks between the holes.

Now having said all that, I LOVE drilled rotors for short track & autocross racing for their lighter mass ... and long tracks too, ONLY IF the car is designed to properly cool the rotors. (Which, of course, it should be.) But pads & rotors have to be inspected after every race & replaced very, very often, driving up the cost of operation. For street driving, I prefer solid rotors. Just my opinion & preference from experience. Of course the holes "look cool" ... so there's that. :twothumbs




Manual & power assisted brake systems can be designed to provide the same braking force. This of course has to be designed in & include the whole system (pedal ratio, M/C piston(s), Caliper pistons, rotors, etc.) "Power assisted" offers the benefit its name implies. You have a power booster (vacuum or hydraulic) helping your foot apply pressure, so the car brakes well, "easier & with less effort." This a preference decision. You don't have to change how your car is set up know ... to add these front disc brakes.

But, you can simply replace your factory drum front brakes with a good disc brake setup from Wilwood or other manufacturer ... without changing your Mustang's master cylinder ... or changing from or to a power booster.

Thank you. Sounds for a street car the $825 will be more than sufficient.

I was told by Shop once I convert my 4 wheel drums to Discs, I will have to replace the master Cylinder etc to work in with the new Brakes. Something about, my master cylinder may not have the pressure it needs for the new brakes... Dont know what all that meant however, I thought when you buy a brake kit all that came with it?

Change Master Cylinder, Brake Lines, etc to match the output or w/e of the New Disc brakes?

Thw $825 is that all 4?

[Ron Sutton]

no, just front discs

[Ron Sutton]

There are a lot of good vendors on this web site that sell Wilwood. Talk to 2-4 of them & find one you're comfortable with & offers technical support. You'll find they're all within $50 or each other on price, which doesn't mean beans if you don't get support.