about American Touring Specialties new afx spindle

[olds87]

Have any one of you guys have tried out the afx sindles out or had heared about there product?

[harshman]

....must wait.....can't stand it....powers draining.....on...market...soon.

They have me waiting as well. I was going to do the Guldstrand mod but I think I’ll wait for these instead.

[olds87]

can you use the same OE frame?

[MuscleRodz]

yes, they are designed for use with the stock sub frame. Do a search for AFX spindle which should answer all your questions.

Mike

[olds87]

have you seen the ad thay put in SUPER CHEVY?

[SatisTraction]

They look great and i am sure they perform great but why do you want them? For those of you who say weight savings you are in for a big shock. the spindle is lighter but that hub is heavier, so there is very little weight savings. I have not had my hands on a set but i would bet that a stock spindle/hub and tubular controls arms weigh less then the AFX spindle/hub with stock control arms.

[Q ship]

Weight savings are not the primary reason for these. Better geometry and brake compatibility are 2 advantages off the top of my head. Do a search.

[SatisTraction]

Weight savings are not the primary reason for these. Better geometry and brake compatibility are 2 advantages off the top of my head. Do a search.

I know that. The same "better" geometry comes from control arms and stock parts at a lower price.

the larger corvette hub would be my primary reason for buying them for a race car, Looks would be for a show car, and they have great brakes for a stock set up.

[Steve1968LS2]

have you seen the ad thay put in SUPER CHEVY?

Or the one in PHR?? :)

They will also be in the "new products" section of December (a department that I now write as well...)

They are just now getting the real parts and I have been talking with Tyler about doing a story on the part and "what makes it so great".. get into the engineering aspect and what it does for your car (and why).

Should be an informative story.. I wonder if I can find a way to use "bad ass" in it??? ;)

[harshman]

I know that. The same "better" geometry comes from control arms and stock parts at a lower price.
I beg to differ. The whole control arm issue has been buggin’ me for some time. No arm manufacturer has proven data as to why their product works better. I could go and buy a set of control arms from a racing supply house for my car at $50 each but what would that gain me with out the data. If their arms actually change the geometry then tell us what part of the geometry changes. I am aware that the Guldstrand mod adds negative camber (if I remember right) but the other arms do what exactly? If they work so well why doesn’t a mag (ahem there steve) or manufacturer actually have a test mule and publicize it? If I owned an arm company that made my first gen go more times my better I sure as hell would tell the world about it.

[Q ship]

I know that. The same "better" geometry comes from control arms and stock parts at a lower price.
I was referring to the 1.4" spindle height increase Tyler referred to in this post. (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51440&postcount=1) If you bought the stock height model, then you lose the geometry benefits, AFAIK.



and they have great brakes for a stock set up.
The C5 brakes or original Camaro brakes?

I guess I'm curious why you are questioning someones desire to use them based on the fact that there are no weight savings(your first post). You seemed skeptical, is there a reason why?

[SatisTraction]

sorry. I am not skeptical. I think they are a great product for a race car. I also think that for the average street driven car that they are over priced and not needed. I am not saying that they are asking too much $$$ for them. I am stating that the average person will see NO benifit over a set of control arms and it will cost him more $$$$.

I also think their marketing of the weight savings is a bit of half truth. true the aluminum spindle is XX.X puond lighter but they left out the fact that the ONLY hub you can run is X pounds heavier.

I am not talking original camaro brakes, they suck.

[Q ship]

I am not talking original camaro brakes, they suck.
LMAO! Agreed!

A lot of the parts we use on these type cars are overkill for street use, as far as that goes. Doesn't seem to discourage people from wanting them anyways!

To me, one big advantage is that better brakes can be mounted without using adapters. On my '77 Nova I will be using C5 brakes mounted to a B-body spindle using adapters. The adapters are very precise and well built, the stock spindles-not as well done. I had to machine the adapters to compensate for the inaccuracies of the GM spindles. By having accurate spindle mount points, you are already a step ahead of the game.

Now if ATS would make a 2nd gen Camaro spindle!

[formula]

Now if ATS would make a 2nd gen Camaro spindle!

if they did this, i would hug them.

unless that weirds them out.

if it weirds them out....im gonna hug them if they dont do this.

[olds87]

Dose the Thrasher have the spindles on the car?

[MrQuick]

I seem to remember this thread (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7951&page=1&pp=20) where Tyler listed a price comparo and it was about the same either way...AFX would provide a weight advantage.

I'd be on the waiting list for a 2nd gen set up myself.

[MuscleRodz]

As much as we would all like, most manufacturers are not going to provide hard numbers and give away their engineering. On the other hand, just how many people actually buying the products would know how to interpret the information?

Mike

[sinned]

sorry. I am not skeptical. I think they are a great product for a race car. I also think that for the average street driven car that they are over priced and not needed. I am not saying that they are asking too much $$$ for them. I am stating that the average person will see NO benifit over a set of control arms and it will cost him more $$$$.
Please don't take this as a flame but you obviously have no understanding of suspension kinematics. Replacing the upper control arms has no affect on camber gain or roll center measurements, unlike the ATS spindle which has a HUGE affect on both.

BTW, they are a terrible product for a race car, they are not designed to be optimal for those conditions. They do however greatly improve the stock numbers and provide an inexpensive and easy means for the enthusiast to improve the handling, improve the braking, and lastly improve the wow factor of his "street" car.

[Steve1968LS2]

As much as we would all like, most manufacturers are not going to provide hard numbers and give away their engineering. On the other hand, just how many people actually buying the products would know how to interpret the information?

Mike

I don't think a company like ATS is worried about average joe customers having the hard precise numbers on the parts, it is more about another company ripping off those numbers and making identical parts. Since that company did not have to spend money on R&D to engineer the part they can sell the copy cheaper.

ATS is going to provide data on the part and explain how/why this spindle is better than stock and what it can do for the car.... and why.. My job will be to put it in a form that people will be able to understand. Now lets talk about sprung and unsprung weight ;)

[chicane67]

The same "better" geometry comes from control arms and stock parts at a lower price.

I believe you are mistaken and/or misinformed. As Dennis stated, you do not get any real inprovement in just swaping out **control arms except for the change/increase in caster and a minor reduction in bumpsteer. The stock subframe seriously lacks in any real benificial camber gain. The spindles themselves change the camber, bumpsteer and the scrub for about or near the same cost as just upper control arms alone, that do less. Now, if you were to do a suspension mount re-location, you can improve caster.... or the spinldes can be used inconjunction with the control arms to improve everything all around. Thats a major advantage in the flexability of spindle itself. Not to mention that the spindles give you the ability to integrate four wheel ABS and a variety of brake systems and performance that was not available before...... I see no other product doing this.... especially a set of control arms by themselves.

**EDIT: It needs to be stated that with the available aftermarket control arms, that some products do modify the camber curve (from a mount re-location specifc to themselves) as well change available caster. However, the arms alone that have this ability are $150-200 more than just the AFX spindle itself. Even with that, we felt the camber gain didnt fit the bill for some of 'our' needs. You can only move a control arm and it mounted location so much, before you effect other inter-related factors of the kinematics involved.

We have the emperical data that showes what each control arm, that is available, does and how it does it and why. The biggest reason for a spindle is, that we can accomplish more with a spindle than what you can do with mere control arms. And if you want the whole gig, we are also releasing control arm cross shafts that allow the caster change to give you full range adjustment.


If you bought the stock height model, then you lose the geometry benefits, AFAIK.

Well, that is not why we produced a stock height spindle. The stock height unit is there for those who have already done suspension mount re-locations and dont need any further geometry change or that have aftermarket control arms already that incoorporate a mount re-location. Sometimes, too much of one thing is bad. But at least with this, we provide the flexability to compliment what you have already purchased in other suspension components.


.....but they left out the fact that the ONLY hub you can run is X pounds heavier.

Well, if you know, Id like to find out how much the weight difference is. And why your at it, I would like to know the benifit to benifit factor of each spindle and hub combination you can provide information for. Looking at weight factors in actual suspension components can rather trivial, depending on whats on the table to be compared. If one were looking at reducing the sprung/unsprung weight in a front end, its better that you look in the direction of the brakes and your wheel and tire package..... because if your looking at spindle and hub weights..... your now splitting hairs over something that has too many variables in it to make it a valid concern. Yup, a pound is a pound thats for sure...... but the brakes and the wheel and tire package can net in the double digit numbers, where it makes the biggest difference. Sure a pound is a pound, but strength is another story.


Now if ATS would make a 2nd gen Camaro spindle!

Second Gen huh? I guess you'll have to keep your subscriptions current and keep your peepers on the look out.....


......just how many people actually buying the products would know how to interpret the information?

Thats just it Mike..... you and Steve nailed it on the head. We took on that same question when we started this whole thing by looking at each product and doing the appropriate analysis in geometry and other areas of concern. Its isnt that we are not worried about you guys getting hard numbers, because in reality, that is exactly why we are doing all of this. We are very concerned that you know what your getting for your money. Average Joe or not, we have and can provide the emperical data to answer your questions in regards to the direction, in which you feel, you want to take your project. What we have to offer, is a product with flexability to improve and suit your specific needs.

Myself, Tyler and Shane will be more than obliged to answer any of your questions or concerns...... thats why were here.

[Damn True]

[Disclaimer: The following is a general statement and not aimed at any one company.]

One of my biggest gripes with the performance automotive aftermarket is the nearly complete lack of application and comparitive data. Most of us don't have sponsors or unlimted budgets to allow us to experiment with different setups. Most of us don't have the ability or the means, like Mr. Parsons, to commision a suspension engineer to sort through the myriad of stuff that is on the market, identify what works and if the right part isn't there design and build it. Most of us are regular guys with regular jobs that have a vision for what we'd like our cars to be. The problem is that very few companies give us much to go on when making buying decisions.

If I were to brand manage any company in this industry, job #1 would be to begin with a feature-benefit matrix of the products in my line and compare it to the competition. The method of presenting a product by merely stating that it is X% better than stock or "lighter or stronger" than the competition offers nothing to the consumer. For example, how many products tout that their particular gizmo increases hp by X%? Well that sounds great and it probably sells stuff to some people. But if the customer is looking for more midrange power and that X% is in an RPM range that he will never see it is of no use. By the same token if that increase is in fact in the midrange the guy looking to build a 10sec drag car will wind up with the wrong parts. {Granted, most of the cam companies have very good tech people that can and do assist customers in finding the right cam for their application}

The same applies to suspension components and all the other stuff we want to buy. I can't think of a single manufacturer with the exception of Global West (in describing their stage I-IV kits) that offers any sort of application recomendation for their components, and even they left out that critical type of info in the description of the Cat-V system. So if I have a vision of how Id like my car to perform how do I figure out which stuff is going to meet that vision?

IMO the aftermarket companies have a responsibility to their customers to let them know what to expect from the components and systems they offer. In fact, it is in their best interest to do so. If you sell a component or system touted as the biggest baddest most advanced suspension gizmo on the market but fail to let the customer know that in reality it is meant to be used on a Trans-Am car he is going to be pretty dissapointed the first time he trys to drive down I-5 from LA to San Diego and ruptures his kidneys. While it is true that in the short term more stuff will be sold to more people with slick marketing and vauge assesments, but if the package is only right for 1/2 of those customers the other 1/2 is going to be justifiably PO'd.
And in the internet age that PO'd consumer has the ability to spread bad news faster and farther than ever before. It is that bad news that in the long term will negate any short term gain in market share.

There are clearly some very bright and talented people on this board who represent many of the companies we do business with. I, as a consumer, am asking you to simply tell me what your product is and is not designed to do so that I, and the rest of the regular guys can get the right stuff the first time.

[MuscleRodz]

Most of us don't have the ability or the means, like Mr. Parsons, to commision a suspension engineer to sort through the myriad of stuff that is on the market, identify what works and if the right part isn't there design and build it. Most of us are regular guys with regular jobs that have a vision for what we'd like our cars to be. The problem is that very few companies give us much to go on when making buying decisions.

There are clearly some very bright and talented people on this board who represent many of the companies we do business with. I, as a consumer, am asking you to simply tell me what your product is and is not designed to do so that I, and the rest of the regular guys can get the right stuff the first time.

Hiring or consulting someone with experience will solve many of your complaints and save you money at the same time. They have tried many of these parts or know people that have and can tell you what work or what doesn't. JP hiring Katz to design his suspension was a very smart move IMO because he got someone who knows what they are talking about to make his suspension work with his car rather than just bolting on what he thought would work or was told would work. Getting Marcus at SC&C to help me with my suspension was definitely the smartest thing I did and it did not cost near as much as you think. Choosing the wrong parts by myself and having a car that did not handle right could have cost me 10 times as much after I bought the parts twice rather than consulting a professional from the start.

All you need to do is see what products are out there and talk to the people that designed them, not the sales people. ATS on many occasions have said they have the imperical data for most or all setups. I believe they are taking the some of the responsibilty you are asking for. DSE is another good company with the right background for proven systems. This forum is probably one of the best forms of information as there is a lot of people who have bought just about every thing out there and many have reported back to this forum on how well it worked. Use the search feature to find information about any system and it probably has been discussed.

OK I am done now I think.

Mike

[MarkM66]

ATS guys;

Will your spindle work for the '62-'67 Nova's? I know Global West makes a kit to allow the use of spindles from a 1st gen Camaro, and since your spindle replaces that spindle, would yours work for this type of car?

From what I've heard the '62-67 Novas have positive camber gain under bump.

[trapin]

I don't think a company like ATS is worried about average joe customers having the hard precise numbers on the parts, it is more about another company ripping off those numbers and making identical parts. Since that company did not have to spend money on R&D to engineer the part they can sell the copy cheaper.
For more on this, contact Kyle Tucker at Detroit Speed & Engineering and ask him about the company up in Canada.

On 2nd thought, don't.

ALRIGHT TYLER, THAT'S ENOUGH LURKING....GET IN HERE.

[TitoJones]

There isn't much for me to add to this thread, since it apprears all of you absorbed all the info I spewed on you when we announced the release of the spindle. Even better, is you remembered it, and could spew it back out correctly.
The only item I feel needs addressing is the small statement Dennis said:


BTW, they are a terrible product for a race car, they are not designed to be optimal for those conditions.

Not entirely true there killer. We took strain gauge readings from cars being raced at Nurburgring, which see limits most guys on an open track day or auto cross will never see. We made sure it would exceed those stresses, and even beefed up the brake bracket design due to Mark Stielow informing us of a C6 Z06 ripping the caliper mount off the spindle due to the extreme clamping forces of the 6 piston calipers. Race cars, street cars, show cars. All can use the AFX spindle with excellent results.

Just a little teaser to boot-

We got our first forgings today. They exceed any expectations I could have ever set. They are works of art, and I cannot wait for you guys to get your hands on one. They are SO freaking awesome. I'll post pics when I get a chance....

Tyler

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

so whats the price on them ? and can u use a gear box or is it setup for rack only ?

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

by the way ....gotta love the abs setup too

[sinned]

The only item I feel needs addressing is the small statement Dennis said:


Not entirely true there killer. We took strain gauge readings from cars being raced at Nurburgring, which see limits most guys on an open track day or auto cross will never see. We made sure it would exceed those stresses, and even beefed up the brake bracket design due to Mark Stielow informing us of a C6 Z06 ripping the caliper mount off the spindle due to the extreme clamping forces of the 6 piston calipers. Race cars, street cars, show cars. All can use the AFX spindle with excellent results.

TylerSorry there T...my bad for not being clear. That statement had nothing to do with the strength of the spindle, I was referring to the geometery. Although a steel upright IS going to be stronger.

[Flyboy]

Just a little teaser to boot-

We got our first forgings today. They exceed any expectations I could have ever set. They are works of art, and I cannot wait for you guys to get your hands on one. They are SO freaking awesome. I'll post pics when I get a chance....

Tyler

I promised Tyler I wasn't going to post up anything he told me... and i'm not going to. :icon_razz But i'll definetely reiterate what he just said above. I was lucky enough to be down at ATS's shop picking up my T56 install kit for my car about 45 minutes after they took delivery of their first set of forgings yesterday. They were still sitting in the crate on the floor when I got there. He and Shane were nice enough to let me check one of them out before they were sent off to be machined. VERY clean pieces, and just unbelieveably light. :yum: After getting to see the actual forgings, getting to see the plastic prototype with the bearing pack and hub installed, and knowing that I won't have to shell out ginormous amounts of money for tubular arms... i'm happy to say that I can't WAIT to throw down some money on a set for my car. The AFX spindle will be well worth the wait IMHO!

Keep up the great work down there at ATS guys! :seizure:

[MarkM66]

ATS guys;

Will your spindle work for the '62-'67 Nova's? I know Global West makes a kit to allow the use of spindles from a 1st gen Camaro, and since your spindle replaces that spindle, would yours work for this type of car?

From what I've heard the '62-67 Novas have positive camber gain under bump.

How about this Tyler?

[TitoJones]

Mark-
I thought the 1st gen Novas used a Strut style suspension? If they make one to use a stock 1st gen F body spindle, then yes, it will work in place of a stocker. The tall version would probably cause ball joint bind, but I'm not an expert at the early Novas what so ever, so don't take what I say as solid fact. I'd like to see some links regarding the early Nova stuff to educate myself. Got anything to show/school me?

Grey-
The spindle uses a bolt on steering arm, so any rack and pinion will work with the spindle.

Tyler

[MarkM66]

Here is the spindle conversion info at the Global West site, bottom of the page

http://www.globalwest.net/62%2067_nova.htm

They use a typical coil and shock front suspension. The main difference it the coil is above the upper control arm.

Something to consider, might be worth your while to test you're spindle out on.