Ride Tech heim joints noisy with four link

[brownz]

I have a Ride Tech 4-link on my 79 camaro. I also have the heim joints on all ends. Since I put the car on the road about 3k miles ago last summer I have replaced both upper bar ends due to noise. I now have a bad creeking/popping noise coming from the drivers lower bar now. I would like to know if anyone else is having these issues.

First let me say that Ride Techs customer service with the replacment of the upper bars heims was top notch as always. This is not bashing the quality of the parts or customer service just want to know if maybe I have bad luck.

Thanks

[Bad94]

I have a few noise coming from the rear, but I think my sway bar end link is still hitting the cradle cross bar.

[Ron Sutton]

Brandon, I suspect your 4-link, and therefore rod ends, may be getting to the point of bind. Maybe not. Can you post some photos showing your 4-link from the front & back of each set of bars ... so we can see the rod ends in between the brackets ?

I have some ideas, but don't want you to go on a wild goose chase looking for all the possible causes.

Also, shoot a photo showing your whole 4-link & rear end from the rear & let us know what rear sway bar spring rate you have.

[GeoffP]

Mine do a little popping especially after beating on them at the Southern Slam. They were pretty quiet before that.

[brownz]

Ron I will have to get some pics when I get time to raise the car up

Geoff
Mine are making noise on cold start and get real bad once they heat up. I called ride tech today and they ate looking into it and hopefully giving me a call back tomorrow. I don't have any interior right now and it still extremely loud.

[marolf101x]

I'm with Ron. . .post some pics, please.
As this will come across my desk I figured I better jump on here and cut out the middle man!

We tested a lot of rod ends to find one that was extremely durable. They aren't cheap, but they work very well and live forever. The 48 Hour car has been on the same rod ends for 3 seasons now, and I don't know many people who have put that much time on the track.

The base 4-link kit uses rubber bushings on both ends of the upper bars, and rubber and poly on the lower bars. We do this to lessen NVH as you will hear and feel the solid mounts.
For cars that are mostly street driven, but run a few autocrosses a year we typically suggest one rod end and one rubber end on the upper, and one rod end and one poly end on the lowers. This adds some noise, but not nearly as much as full solid.

The 48 Hour car (67 Camaro) spends most of it's time on the track (though we do drive it to almost every event), so it uses rod ends on both upper bars, and one rod end and one poly end on the lowers. You can really hear and feel everything in this car. To go to the next level we also have Delrin bushings in the front lower control arms and will have Delrin in the uppers after this weekend (we simply ran out of time to get the uppers swapped over). The Delrin front is more noticeable than the rear, only because it transfers more into the steering wheel. Take your hands off the wheel and you don't notice it.

[GeoffP]

Brandon,

Did you weld the cradle bars in or bolt them in? Is it possible you are hearing the cradle bars moving and making noise when they contact the frame if the cradle bars are bolted in? Did you make any adjustments to the length of the upper and/or lower links? If so, did you make sure you checked the axle travel with the coil overs disconnected to check for bind? I did this with my floor jack supporting the center section and pivoted the axle to its full extents to make sure it moved freely. While not in the instructions, I figured it was good to check. Also, I would make sure your links are squared up with the rod end links turned in parallel of each other. You don't want one end turned completely opposite of the other because that will definitely cause link binding - I'm assuming you already know this but figured it was better to check since no one else mentioned it.

In my case, I think my popping may be related to the troubles I had getting the self tapping bolts to grab the frame. I have had to retighten those bolts on my car a couple times already so I am probably going to have it welded in when I get my upper link tabs redone by someone a lot more experienced in this type work. Of course my noise may also becoming from the rod ends because I went total solid with no bushed links!

@Britt - I am looking forward to seeing the 48 Hour car again soon because I want to look it over closely in comparison to my car. I tried hard to duplicate that setup with mine as I built it (where I could afford) because I have seen in person how well that car works. I was somewhat disappointed when I found out you guys were swapping the front arms to delrin bushings but I am glad to hear that was just recently done. I had previously been told the work had been done as early as last fall possibly prior to RTTH last year. That event was what sold the RideTech setup to me because I saw how well it competed (with your driving I believe!) against the other major manufacturers!

Brandon - I hope you can find an answer and solution! I'll be watching to see what you figure out.

[marolf101x]

@GeoffP - I look forward to seeing you again! I'm leaving for Nashville tomorrow. . .so if you happen to be making the trip I'll see you there. If not I may not catch you this season as I'm expecing my second child at the end of June. . .so I'll be stuck at home most of the summer. (though I would like to stick it to everyone again at RTTH!)

The 48 Hour car has had Delrin in the lower arm for quite some time. We just got the caster slug cross shafts all finished up, but like I said we ran out of time for this weekend. Nashville is sort of our "home" event, so we'll be there in full force with quite a few cars.

Good points on checking the bolts and the travel. Once we get some pics I'm hoping we can see some of that if it's causing an issue.

Now back to our regular scheduled programming!

[brownz]

I did the best I could

[brownz]

More to come

[brownz]

Pics

[brownz]

Sorry for all the post but my phone app will only let me upload a few at a time. I hope this helps as I would like to figure out what's going on.

Geoff. My cradle is bolted and welded. Not completely welded but enough for it not to move and its also bolted. I have the ends lines up the best that I can as Rodney and I talked about on my first swap out. I have looked over every link and found no issues with clearance at all.

I do understand that I will have more road noise issues and a rougher ride but I was expecting that. Also with having derlin bushing in my GW front controls arm you can tell. (Brit) sorry I don't have your front arms but I do have your coil overs on the front lol

I dot see how anything could be in a bind. I have this noise when I simply sit down in the car ( hard of course ) also even when I leave from a stop light or a parking space I hear the joints creaking and popping. I do drive the car on the street when I can but i dont think that should matter. when I did the speed stop down at the ls fest I could hear the joints from a video my dad took from the stop box.

Maybe these pics will help...

[GeoffP]

Oooo - you said the magic words Brit!!! I WANTED cluster slug cross shafts when I bought my arms big time - that's one area I would've splurged on for sure! Congrats on the pending arrival of your second child! I have two girls myself (9 and 3). I may attend Run to Music City as a spectator/ride along'er but I won't be bringing my car out again until RTTH due to financial constraints. BUT I do have a nice new 24x8 trailer so I'll be towing in style with a new engine in my 2500HD by then! As I've said before, "Now I just gotta learn how to drive it"

Brandon - those links look to be aligned near perfectly to me! There appears to be a little offset in the upper links but not enough to cause problems that I can see. The welds are really nice too! Is that a Hotchkis rear sway bar I see??? That's gotta be the problem... JUST kidding! I'm curious, when you pulled the first set of links were the balls loose in the Heim ends? Did they have any scoring or chafing resulting from the binding? Just another thought, but it could simply be that RideTech got a bad shipment of Heim joints though I suspect this is unlikely. I've looked the pictures over and over and I just don't see anything obvious...sorry!

[GeoffP]

I just saw your last post - that upper link looks off to me but I have never seen a second gen install. I looked at a lot of 1st gen installs before deciding to buy mine. My upper links are nearly perfectly 90 deg from my link brackets even with my pinion angle mistake so maybe that link is the problem? I assume the weld fixture still fits after everything was welded up? I checked mine with the fixture again after everything was welded solid to make sure the tabs didn't move from welding. Just a thought but you might try refitting the fixture to see if it still fits? If it won't go in then I think that's where the problem lies.

[brownz]

Thanks Geoff.

I cant find anthing either. Yes that is a hotchkis rear bar I didnt think it would work but it fits like a glove. When ride tech replaced the other noisy joints I could not see anything wrong with them. I would try to move the ball/socket and they would not really move freely they would have a shutter movement. Even moving them by hand you could hear the chatter noise from them. Imagine that with all the road bumps and movement the rear end goes through.

[GeoffP]

That's interesting...I've been under my car several times since I installed my 4 link and I often find myself "playing" with the links to see if they're moving freely out of curiosity. Mine have never felt "shuttery" - they have always move smoothly and freely. I haven't been under it since the Southern Slam event though so I'll try to check that they still move smoothly tomorrow night after I get off work. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe the links are getting dirt in them which is causing them to wear prematurely? I just don't think this would be an issue because the fit is so tight I don't see dirt making its way into the friction surface of the joint.

[Ron Sutton]

Brandon, what I wanted to see was, if the rod ends were "clocked" correctly ... meaning they were in line ... and that you had high misalignment bushings on the sides. That all looks good, except the 2 rod ends in the last photos are off some & you'll want to correct that. Don't take this for granted, Every little bit matters.

It sounds like you're already working on a solution with Britt @ Ridetech, but I'll make 2 suggestions:

1. You need to make sure the 4-link is neutral & NOT pre-loaded. Preload is when one bar has ended up longer or shorter that it should be ... and creating a preload condition. When I was in drag racing, 8 out of 10 racers didn't do this, and the car pulled one way or another on hard launches.

It's easy for a 4-link to be preloaded "anything" in the suspension changed. It takes patience & TLC to get it to be neutral. The first step is to get the car set just like you drive it, but on a flat surface (Garage?), meaning tire pressures, ride height & proper weight ... in the seat & fuel tank. (Have someone of similar weight sit in the driver's seat.)

From under the car, grab each bar, one at a time & see if you can rotate it back-n-forth. (go ahead & correct the "clocking" on those 2 rod ends while you're there. If the 4-link is neutral ... 2 bars will feel firm to rotate & 2 easier to rotate. (Which two depends on spring placement) If one bar is extremely hard, or impossible, to rotate ... you have preload in the 4-link.

If you have preload in the 4-link, you will need to take the preload out ... get the car back to neutral ... while keeping the wheelbase correct & the rear end square. If you know how to do this ... great. If not, just ask.

2. You should check your "rod ends". As a designer of only competition cars, I do NOT have experience with the rubber or poly bushings in rod ends to advise you in this area. But Britt sounds like he's on it.

[marolf101x]

To further the inspection that Ron posted above. . . I would pull the bars out and check the actual rod end.
First grab the ball in the rod end with your thumb and index finger and try to move it back and forth (toward then away from the rod end threads).
The try to move it side-to-side.
You should have zero deflection in either direction. The ball should move freely, but not be loose.

[brownz]

Brit

What you are asking me to check was the reason the uppers were replaced. I can remove the lowers and check those. When rotating then when they are still installed then have a shutter movement to them.

[marolf101x]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "shutter". If the rod end has failed the ball will have "slop" when moved radially or axially.
If the ball is held snugly by the liner the ball will not move, and will thereby have no noise as it cannot move and "clunk".

[brownz]

When I say shutter I guess I'm trying to say that the ball will not move freely and is very stuff. It is not loose in the socket but will not rotate freely and when you try to move it will feel as if it has detents on it. The noise is not a clunk sound like its loose but more of a creak noise.

[72BBSwinger]

I vote for checking for bind, the thing needs to move freely unfortunately you need to undo the coilovers and cycle it bump to bump to check it.

[brownz]

I get the noise off the slightest movement of the rear. I don't think binding is the issue. I ran it through complete travel when I replaced the uppers. I wish ride tech was close I would just take the car to them... You can simply pull up on the rear quarter and hear the noise. If the lower links move at all you hear the creaking

[Bryce]

Can you take a video to capture the sound.

[brownz]

I might give that a shot

[GeoffP]

Brandon, my car makes no noise at all if I compress the suspension by hand. I would have to say that it really sounds like to me that at least one link has either positive or negative preload (over extension or over compression). Loosen the adjusting nuts on each link - you can check preload by screwing the links in and out. You will feel resistance as the link gets loaded under extension and compression. Then try to get the link centered between the two - just be careful not to move your pinion angle or axle center if you already have them set. I'm going to shut up now and read along as this is pretty much all I have to offer as I'm no suspension expert.

[brownz]

I have a video of the noise just need to upload it. I also found out that ride tech used a different manufacture for the left hand thread Heinz up until a month ago. Still not sure if this is the issue but I will be taking my car apart in the next couple days so we can get to the bottom if this.

Brit and Darren have been great with helping me with this and the communication. I'm sure we will figure out the issue. I will get the video up tonight. It defiantly show the noise talking about

[brownz]

http://s224.photobucket.com/user/brown383z/media/car_zpse949a272.mp4.html


I took this video of the noise. this is with slight suspension movement. Imagine it when driving it on the road

[GeoffP]

Mine doesn't do that - I drove it last night. I do get a little noise that sounds similar but only going down the road and not nearly as pronounced. I'm going to guess that one of the links has preload in it causing that link or multiple links to bind.

[GeoffP]

Any new news on this Brandon?

BTW, I just found a post on Lat-g that said the new slug cross shafts aren't retrofittable because the Strong Arms for F-body's are being redesigned. I don't know if the 2nd gen arms are being redesigned too but I suspect they will eventually. I'm disappointed because I wanted slug cross shafts but thought there was significant enough caster in the fixed cross shafts to get that ever elusive +5 or greater caster setting (RideTech's spec suggests 4-7 positive). My car just barely got 4 positive and there's a huge stack of shims on the rear mount on each side (one more than the other). I think I would've waited on the uppers had I known they were completely revising them because I do not like rubber bushings for a performance application like what I intended for my car. I'm not saying this to say my car didn't have a dramatic improvement because it did. I just feel like I missed out on that "just a little more" that I wanted by buying a full matched kit. Sorry for the short hijack - I'll shut up now!

[72BBSwinger]

That is metal to metal man. That aint no squeak or creak, something is either loose or kissing something else.

[Bryce]

sounds like slop in the bolts or rod ends.

[brownz]

That is metal to metal man. That aint no squeak or creak, something is either loose or kissing something else.


If I spray the joints with dry lube they stop making the noise. I have looked at everything nothing is rubbing,

I have new links that ride tech sent me and I hop to have them in soon. I have been crazy busy with other project ( house, side jobs ) to get to it. But I will update this thread when I do. Plus I will be in contact with ride tech.

[Red67Mustang]

IMHO; The noise is coming from the slightest movement of the ball overcoming the stiction (the frictional force to be overcome to set one object in motion when it is in contact with another) with the race. This comes from joints with excessive preload on the ball by the race. It has nothing to do with your rods and how they are built. The noise is amplified if the offending rod end(s) are mounted on the chassis side versus the axle side. You could try bench testing for excessive stiction and then use the best joints you have on the chassis connection points. That should help the noise but not eliminate the issue. I've not yet found a great long term solution, but in my case I'm considering greasing the races by removing the offending joints, rotating the ball to where I can apply some bearing grease directly to the race w/ my finger then reinstall. Always open to better ideas how to lube a rod end.

I'll do this once I have nothing else to do...