PDA

View Full Version : 6th Time a Charm! Ridetech, 67 Camaro Ramblings



AintQik
04-29-2013, 05:14 AM
Ok, so as I rant here understand I do have a point. That point is to confide in you all I'm an idiot and possibly arm the next 67 Camaro guy with a nugget that may help them along in their build process. I am blessed and have a corral of neat cars to play with. I'm also cursed and me and Murphy are old drinking buddies. There is never a dull moment around here and most times it is painful.

So, fast forward to 2013 and I am finishing up this 67 Camaro that I have been fighting with for 3 years. Most of the time the military got in the way of finishing it and it’s been a long road with the birth of 2 kids, 2 moves yadda yadda yadda, a story I probably share with many of you.

1st off, many of my "new parts" that had been sitting on a shelf were failing and it was very hard to troubleshoot because, well hell they are new. Master cylinder, Steering box, all the seals were bad and these were sitting in a controlled environment, I don't live in a swamp or desert. But, they were bad and I had to replace all kinds of new stuff. Bummer. Many of the vendors were pretty cool and offered to rebuild the parts for free. So, props to this community and the people that are a part of it.

Tip 1: When troubleshooting remember unlikely does not mean impossible.

So, I finally get the thing on the ground and I take it down the driveway. It had a leak here and there but otherwise it was successful. The sun was setting, I was all proud of myself and I stood with hands on hips admiring my progress. Then, with the long light dancing on the beautiful lines of the 67, I notice the dents and crap myself. To this day I do not know how they got there, but they were there all over the rear quarter and door. Car is always locked up in my shop and access is limited to me and my wife. Who knows.

Tip 2: Those paintless dent guys can be worth their weight in gold.

Shake down ride 2 led me out to the street by my house which is under construction. Unfortunately the bottom of my pristine car and the earth met rather uncomfortably on several occasions during that trip. This made me very concerned as I did not build the car to stare at it and I certainly cannot drive it if I can't traverse the one and only road to my residence. I was deep in this thought and rather upset when I pulled into my driveway. The power steering hose burst, spraying fluid everywhere including my long tubes, and instantly burst the car into flames. I can tell you the snow white smoke power steering fluid makes when it realizes combustion temperatures is rather hard on the eyes and throat. I ran into the shop and grabbed my fire extinguisher and managed to get the fire out before any paint damage. There was enough fluid to keep most of the fire satisfied before digging into my car proper. Had I been 200 yards farther down the driveway she would be gone. AN hose failure is not something I have ever experienced, but I guess it happens.

Tip 3: Always carry an extinguisher. Always. Oh, and have good insurance.

All fixed up I’m now faced with the fact that I can’t drive this car comfortably. If every time I hit a divot in the road I experience what I can best describe as butt hole pucker factor level 10, I’m thinking this is not fun. I am on suspension version 5 now. A 67 Camaro, or maybe it’s my 67 Camaro, is the hardest car in the world to get to sit low. Sitting low is a must. Don’t know how the rest of you are doing it. Maybe your roads are better, maybe you trailer your car, maybe you put bags of cement in the trunk and engine bay for photo shoots. I don’t know, but I do know it aint working for me. After several manufacturers failed miserably I found success in Fbody Dave’s arms, L&H spindles and Ridetech coilovers and 4 link. I finally got the geometry right and it sat at a respectable level. But when pushed hard, the rear end cover will hit the 4 link (easy fix) and the headers will slam into momma earth (not so easy fix). I could crank the coilovers up, but then I would sit like every other 67 Camaro around here and the gobs of money I spent on suspension would be for visual naught. I want to look cool. Sorry, but I get off on old cars that hug pavement. I realize that not everyone needs a car that is low but I do.

Tip 4: 67 and probably 68 Camaros will be significantly challenged to sit visually low. It’s in the fenders. Maybe it’s just my car, but keep this in mind as you build. Ya get to the end and you are screwed.

Well, almost screwed. So for reference at my desired “ride height” I had 2.75” of clearance between the header flange and the ground. Remarkably, that is not where it hit. The front header tube hits first. 650# spring with a big block and it is pretty stiff. Maybe I could have screwed with the rates to get it better, but I gave up. It also hit the Air Bar between the shock cross member and a Moser aluminum rear end girdle. I could have notched the cross bar, but my other issues would still exist. To be honest I still will fix this with some grinding and pulling the rear a tad closer the front when I go through and re-weld the 4 link. I also probably have a less then optional pinion angle, but its only off a hair. Again, I post this for people who are building as a possible issue they need to think about in the fab stage, not in the assembly stage like I am. So, another issue is the space between the driveshaft and floor at the rear yoke.

To try and fix all this I sold my beloved Ridetech coilovers and got Shockwaves. I have no experience with this stuff, always seemed like too much crap to stick in a car, but I can think of no other way to meet my goals with the roads this bad around here. I can think of a bunch more things that will probably go wrong, shock range not able to give me a “low” low enough as well as a “high” high enough, too much spring rate at “high”, not enough rate at “low” shocks not clearing the exhaust now but I am hoping for the best. Hopefully I will be able to report back that I have a well suspended car that I can drop where I want it when at a track, or show. We will see. I know it is hard to have your cake and eat it too, but maybe there is some compromise here. Not looking forward to running airlines everywhere tomorrow, but I do get some neat computer looking thingy to stick in my ashtray that does not want to stay closed. Pretty expensive ashtray fix if you ask me.

Happy Motoring.

andrewb70
04-29-2013, 05:31 AM
I hate Mr. Murphy! Fun read...

Andrew

Rhino
04-29-2013, 09:05 AM
Tip 4: 67 and probably 68 Camaros will be significantly challenged to sit visually low. It’s in the fenders. Maybe it’s just my car, but keep this in mind as you build. Ya get to the end and you are screwed.

I'm going through this process myself. I just dropped my car onto it's newly completed suspension last night. Out of curiosity, how low is "low enough" for you. I currently have a 1" gap between the top of the wheel to the wheel lips. I'm very happy with the appearance. I engineered everything around this ride height, but it now feels like I'll be a bit low. I have yet to drive the car, and I can't foresee any issues, but in the back of my mind I know Murphy is looking at me next.

AintQik
04-29-2013, 09:25 AM
1" gap to me would be too high. I like the fenders and tires a little tighter. I think I was at F25.5" at the top of the fender arch and R26.75". That to me looked good but would bottom out. These cars are very very different from one another. Good luck and PM me if you run into anything. Probably been there and done that.

At that height what is your clearance at the lowest point? How's the rear? Are you running a 4 link?

bret
04-29-2013, 01:15 PM
...And now you have come to understand why we developed air suspension in the first place! For those who will not compromise, who must keep/eat their cake, who will not stop until they reach their ALL their goals.
Make sure you contact us if there is any installation/tuning/comiserating question we can answer. If the tech guys downstairs can't give you the answer, I can likely tell you in some detail why it doesn't matter...or at least a list of ways NOT to do it! :)

BTW...after all this you may have to change your screen name from aintqik to DAMNQUIK

Rod
04-29-2013, 04:13 PM
Mr Murphy and I are old drinking buddies also! I say beers all around :cheers:

Rhino
04-29-2013, 04:17 PM
I'm running a c5 sub and 4 link rear.
1" may be pushing it a bit. I just went out to measure and my rear wheel arch hits 26.5 with about .75" gap. I dont have the front sheetmetal hung yet so i cant give a measurement there. That gives me 7" at the rocker, 5.5 at the front crossmember and 4.5 at the headers.

AintQik
04-29-2013, 06:01 PM
Well Bret, I appreciate the encouragement if nothing else. I love your stuff, lets hope this all works out. However, I aint holding my breath lol, I'm sure me or Murphy will screw this up. Should be here tomorrow.

Rhino, at 26.5" you have over 4" of clearnace? Hell man I'd call it good. With my 18s and a 315/30 I had 2.75" with the car at a slight rake. Like I said these cars are all different. I hope yours works out to where you like it.

Do I get a prize for the most suspension set-ups before its been on the road officially? Or, should I be banned from cars for being so stupid?

Black93GT
04-30-2013, 05:36 AM
Mr Murphy and I are old drinking buddies also! I say beers all around :cheers:

We must all be on the same drinking team. :cheers:

XLexusTech
04-30-2013, 06:42 AM
Beer.. beer did someone say beer..... LOL.. glad you got it sorted... but 2.75 inches of clearance is scary :-)

I am at 4 and it scares me :-)

AintQik
04-30-2013, 06:44 AM
I would be tickled at 4 looking the way I want it. I get the AirRide today and hopefully I can have a few settings to drive around and one to set it down to cruise.

bret
04-30-2013, 08:45 AM
In my research years ago [around 1992] I found that most speedbumps are spec'd at 3.5" tall. Obviously some are taller, some shorter. On my first air suspension car I selected a highway ride height of 4.5", knowing that I could lower the car about 3.5" from that ride height for a parking stance.
Since then there have been a lot of people [truck guys mostly] who insist on "laying frame". I've never liked my cars to drag the ground under any circumstances. I always like to see at least 1" of ground clearance when fully dropped [although I've built a couple with 1/4" just to prove a point :)]

One question that seems to continually come up is alignment when the car is dropped. The only time the car is dropped is when parked or rolling through a show or cruise. At that point the frontend alignment is of no issue. Get the alignment right at highway ride height and you'll be good.
I've also been known to "adjust" the camber on my autocross cars by manipulating the air pressure slightly. Nice tuning tool, especially on a slick track.

The "proper" ride height is the one where the car rides the best. My typical procedure is this:

1. select an initial ride height based on the length of the ShockWave, the cars suspension parameters, and your personal taste.
2. set your initial alignment at that height and drive it around to evaluate ride quality
3. after playing with a few different ride heights, recheck the alignment at your favorite ride height and adjust if neccessary.

Another item that always comes up is ride quality.

Ride quality will be influenced by 3 things primarily:

1. shock settings
2. height of the ShockWave
3. suspension travel

Notice I did not mention air pressure. That is because it is of minor importance. Your car may take, for example, 85psi to get to the proper ride height. A lighter car like a 33 Ford may only take 50 psi. Just like you would want a heavier coilspring to support the heavier Camaro than the lighter 33 Ford, the higher air pressure required to lift the Camaro to its proper ride height will result in a heavier spring rate. Most of the time less air pressure does not result in better ride quality.

Shock settings - if you have an adustable shock, start with the settings in the middle and adjust in 4 click increments. Adjust to the extreme in both directions just so you know what they feel like. The front will end up adjusted firmer than the rear. That is because of the leverage factor of an independent front end versus the direct action of the solid rear axle.

ShockWave height - the farther you deviate from the ShockWaves intended ride height [published in our catalog and website] the more the ride quality and handling performance will suffer. In the real world you should be within about 1/2" either way from the intended design height of the Shockwave.

Suspension travel - Remember... to get any decent ride quality and handling you must have some suspension travel. I like to see at least 3" on compression travel and 1.5-2" of extension travel. The ride height required to acheive proper suspension travel may not be exactly where you want the car to sit visually but also remember that at 60mph, no one is going to run alongside the car with a tape measure. You car set the car down when you get to the show. With the e3 controller you will have 3 programmable settings so you don't have to remember where the air pressure was.
If you experience tire clearance, ground clearance, or driveline clearance problems at highway ride height, an air suspension can't fix these...you need to fix the actual clearance problem[s].

Keep us posted on your progress!

AintQik
05-01-2013, 04:27 AM
Thanks, all good words. Got about 85% of it together last night and its good quality stuff. Somebody stuck the "exhaust" sticker on the compressor in the wrong port so I scratched my head a few minutes on that one, but no real issues. Main power wire is a bit short to get from the trunck to the battery up front, and I might be a little short on the front hoses. Otherwise overall great kit.

My rear shocks may be an issue. No fault of Ridetech of course. The vendor sent me the 5" stroke Shockwaves which are 16.5" extended and 11.5" compressed. Even with the lower shock mount in the lowest possible place on the 4 link, at fully extended I'm 6" off the tire in the rear. Compressed will not tuck the tire, which is bad and ride height will be at monster truck levels. 1" off the fender would be acceptable for ride height and give me plenty of room, but that is going to be at the shock's limit and obviously not good. Need to shoot a PM over to Bret and see what he says.

mikeybigblock
05-01-2013, 07:24 AM
I am running the full ridetech coil over set up front and rear and I think I have prety tight wheel gaps and the car is great to drive. All I can say is the guys at Ridetech are great to deal with and the parts look great and are high quailty peices.

AintQik
05-01-2013, 08:25 AM
Is that a 19/20 combo? If I had my 18s that tight the ground clearnace is 2.5" at the lowest point. I can see you have much more than that. I got a wierd car and it just shows the difference between these things.

I really like the Ridetech stuff.

bret
05-02-2013, 08:00 AM
We can trade the 5.2 for the 4.1 shock. This will give you a lower ride height, assuming you have proper clearance on all the components. Make sure you set your correct pinion angle at your intended highway ride height.

AintQik
05-02-2013, 08:15 AM
I set it down with the shock at its optimal height and the ride height looks to be tolerable. I prefer it .5" tighter, but I don't think the shock is going to care much .5" closer to the stop. I realize this is not optimal, but I think it is better than a 4" stroke.

I'm fighting a discharge solenoid that is stuck open so I can't really do much more tuning. Was that way when I first powered it up and I've been told I need to disassemble it and see what is going on/look for debris. Will try that tonight.

Otherwise top-notch kit and a fun install.

davidk68
05-02-2013, 08:18 AM
Mikey - what are your tire sizes/diameters and what are the meaurements to the top of the fender/quarter arch?? That's an awesome looking car!!!

David

Rhino
05-02-2013, 09:06 AM
Personally, I would be looking to modify the shock mount rather than swapping to a different shock. Reduced travel would generally also dictate a higher spring rate. Given how rigid most of our suspensions are to begin with, I'd be looking to retain any compliance I can.

bret
05-02-2013, 10:43 AM
I set it down with the shock at its optimal height and the ride height looks to be tolerable. I prefer it .5" tighter, but I don't think the shock is going to care much .5" closer to the stop. I realize this is not optimal, but I think it is better than a 4" stroke.

I'm fighting a discharge solenoid that is stuck open so I can't really do much more tuning. Was that way when I first powered it up and I've been told I need to disassemble it and see what is going on/look for debris. Will try that tonight.

Otherwise top-notch kit and a fun install.

A lot of time cycling the solenoid will blow out any debris. Most of time a quick disassembly of the coil will allow you to blow out the debris. If that doens't cure it quickly and completely, we'll get you another one out.

AintQik
05-03-2013, 03:58 AM
Took it apart and there was some "debris" in there that I cleaned and got it to work for a few cycles. Then it quit. Took it apart again and it worked again for a few cycles, no debris present. Swapped plungers and the leaking stayed with the coil which got me scratching my head. Moved the coils and the leak did not follow the coil and it quit leaking entirely. Move the coil back to the original spot and the leak comes back. So, it works if I swap the front coils and I use opposite arrows on the control panel. This makes absolutely no friggin sense. If the coil is bad in one spot, it would be bad in another.

Lets close this thread as I don't want to make this sound like a bash on Ridetech thing. Product is outstanding and support is awesome. I just have bad luck.

On a final note, when I set the car at ride height based on shock stroke or very close ;), I have 1" gaps between all the wheels which is acceptable. I have 4" of clearance at my lowest point. Car tucks all 4 aired out. As long as it rides decent I think the product met my intent. Nothing drags the ground aired out, so even with these solenoids going out, I'm confident I can get in the trailer should I need to.