When is it time to give it up and call in a Professional?

[Vicinity]

My car has been "done" for almost a year now, with the only issue being the clutch will not disengage. I've tried everything to get it to work. I seriously cannot figure it out. I was very proud of the fact that I've done everything on this car myself, but I, for the life of me, cannot figure this out. Today I guess I'm going to call some mechanics to get this done. I'm incredibly frustrated at this car and this is pretty much just a vent post. I've pretty much lost all the will to work on my car because of this issue... (sort of why I haven't logged on here in months).

Anyone else have an issue like this?

[68lovebuzz]

We all hit walls man. Sorry about the clutch. Maybe just walk away for a day or two. Come back with a fresh head. If all else fails sometimes we all gotta pay the man.... I feel your pain : ) don't give up

[andrewb70]

My car has been "done" for almost a year now, with the only issue being the clutch will not disengage. I've tried everything to get it to work. I seriously cannot figure it out. I was very proud of the fact that I've done everything on this car myself, but I, for the life of me, cannot figure this out. Today I guess I'm going to call some mechanics to get this done. I'm incredibly frustrated at this car and this is pretty much just a vent post. I've pretty much lost all the will to work on my car because of this issue... (sort of why I haven't logged on here in months).

Anyone else have an issue like this?

Dan,

Why don't you tell us again what the exact problem is.

LS engine T56 combo? What clutch? What slave? What MC? What MC bracket? etc...

Andrew

[rockytopper]

Not sure of your setup but back in the day I had a throw out bearing go out on my 55 chevy 4 speed car. Pulled the trans twice after installing the only 2 bearings listed for a standard chevy automobile. Turns out the car had a truck bell housing. Third time was a charm using a truck trow out bearing.
Rocky

[DRJDVM's '69]

Sometimes getting a second opinion from a fresh set of unbiased eyes and hands make a huge difference. Sometimes you are so engulfed in trying to solve the issue you get tunnel vision and miss something... Sometimes it's obvious and you don't realize it because your brain has you focused on some other aspect

How many times have you written a paragraph and read it a dozen times and thought it was perfect... Then someone else reads it and find spelling and grammar errors all over the place?

[Jimmy Sean]

Dan,

Why don't you tell us again what the exact problem is.

LS engine T56 combo? What clutch? What slave? What MC? What MC bracket? etc...

Andrew

Here is his thread on the clutch issues. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?95355-T56-Hydraulics-Issue

on page 2 "Well, I'm using a McLeod Bellhousing to mate a Viper T56 with an LS engine on a LS7 clutch, so I had to use a Viper slave. I suppose I'll pull everything and check measurements."

[Vicinity]

Dan,

Why don't you tell us again what the exact problem is.

LS engine T56 combo? What clutch? What slave? What MC? What MC bracket? etc...

Andrew

LS1 from a 2004 GTO (all stock)
T56 from a 2005 Dodge Viper (1pc shaft)
LS7 Clutch (26 tooth)
McLeod LS1 to Dodge T56 Bellhousing
Viper Slave with Camaro Fitting
Tick LS1 Adjustible Master Cylinder (Stock didn't throw enough)
Ebay Bracket, basically the same as the Speedtech

I Shimmed the Slave about a half an inch to lessen the required throw, and it still does not disengage (pedal down, pushing into gear the wheels move).

I agree about the second set of eyes, unfortunately, I don't know of anyone who knows anything about manual trans. Only people around me who do, I don't know and are professional mechanics, which is why I've reached this point. I really want to get this thing fixed, or sell the car.

I'm going into the Air Force soon and this car not running is just dead weight for me.

[andrewb70]

First things first. Have you bled it fully?

If there is any air in the line, the slave will not work.

Wish I was closer.

Andrew

[JD'sTT55]

As a mechanic for over 20 years I've had my fair share of no release problems. I see them in 2 categories. Hydraulic or machanical.
Hydraulic, not moving the release bearing far enough to disengage clutch. First, is all the air out? does the pedal have steady resistance through out the entire travel. If easier or free play feeling at the top most likely still has air in it. On some cars (with a flexible line which I hope you have) I've had to remove the master cylinder and leaving the hose connected hold it lower than the slave cylinder and move it by hand to try to force the air into the highest spot which is now the slave cylinder. Also tapping on the cylinder and line to try to loosen stuck air bubbles in lines to move to the slave cylinder. Then open bleeder screw (just a little) as you push the master cylinder rod in by hand until the end and closing the bleeder screw (may need an assistant to do both things at once without letting the master cylinder rod move out and thereby sucking air back in. If you are certain all the air is out try looking through the bellhousing hole for the line (mirror-fashlight) if its at a bad angle which it always is. As an assistant pushes the pedal observe when the release bearing starts to move in relation to when the pedal moves(should be at the same time) also observe if anything else is moving or flexing besides the fingers on the pressure plate ie: the flywheel or slave cylinder taking up the travel instead of the pressure plate. Also look at the distance the release bearing travels trying to judge the distance moved in relation to the clutch manufactures specs.
Volume of master cylinder suffecient to fill slave cylinder with enough fluid to move far enough? Master cylinder bore and stroke vs. oem master bore and stroke? Fluid possibly leaking back into reservoir during stroke?

Mechanical, I have seen where a clutch disk was installed backwards and the springs rubbed on the flywheel bolts and wouldn't release. Also I have seen where the flywheel bolt heads were too tall(thick) and the disk springs rubbed on the bolts with a no release condition or a flywheel machined so much that the springs contacted the bolts. Transmission off center causing a bind with the pilot bearing. was an alignment tool used to ensure LS engine, McLeod bellhousing to viper t56?
Just some thoughts from someone thats fought some before. hope this helps.:banghead:

[GeoffP]

I'm going to take a stab and guess that either the hydraulics aren't bled, the slave doesn't have enough throw to disengage the LS clutch, or a combination of the two. I would get out a dial gauge and check the lengths and depths of everything related to the clutch throw. Something should point to the reason it isn't releasing. Maybe the McLeod bell isn't right? Also, if you haven't called McLeod, call and ask them if they have a certain clutch setup that is certified to work with their bell. I bet they have suggested parts and also tap Tick since you've bought something from them. They may be able to help too.

Take this FWIW - I just did my LS/T56 swap last year but I stuck with all F-body parts so I'm not overly familiar with the differences that a Viper T56 introduces to a swap.

[Finch]

The viper TO assemblies I believe are taller than the LS units and the center of them will come into contact with the center of the disc which could be pushing the disc into the flywheel not allowing it to disengage. You can look at the front of it and see if it is galled up but requires pulling the trans again. I had use an LS assembly and drilled new holes to get it clocked correctly to use the viper front plate.

[Vicinity]

The viper TO assemblies I believe are taller than the LS units and the center of them will come into contact with the center of the disc which could be pushing the disc into the flywheel not allowing it to disengage. You can look at the front of it and see if it is galled up but requires pulling the trans again. I had use an LS assembly and drilled new holes to get it clocked correctly to use the viper front plate.

This has me curious. The F-Body TO can be used on a Viper inputshaft/plate (assuming it was clocked and spaced out enough)?

Side question, do the bolt holes line up or need to be redrilled also?

[JD'sTT55]

I'll 2nd the slave cylinder may be too tall. I had one that the inner sleeve that the release bearing rides on contacted the inner disk hub and pushed the disk into the flywheel attached pics to further illustrate
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Mine was that the hub was incorrect. Ordered a new disk and was different height.

[andrewb70]

Dan,

There is some good tech here.

I also suggest doing the following test.

Get the car on jackstands and have someone inside the car. This is done with the engine turned OFF. Have the person inside the car put the trans in 4th gear. You get under and start applying a rotational force to the driveshaft. Obviously you won't be able to turn it by hand. While you are doing that, have the person inside the car start to press on the clutch, slowly. As the clutch is being released, you should eventually be able to turn the driveshaft by hand. Note the position of the clutch pedal when this happens. If the pedal is high, have the person continue to press the clutch pedal as you rotate the driveshaft. The driveshaft should be relatively easy to spin with a fully released clutch, BUT if there are any of the above isues mentioned, you will start to feel a drag as you rotate the driveshaft and you may start to hear noises from the bellhousing area. A clutch will actually start to engage again if the pressure plate fingers are overtraveled. And as Brian said, various parts of the TOB may be hitting the disk. When I was setting up my TOB, I noticed that the LS7 clutch requires less than 1/2" of travel at the spring fingers to achieve a clean release. It is entirely possible that you are over traveling the clutch.

Another test you can do, with the engine running, is to see if it shifts into gear easier when the clutch is only pressed 50-75% of the total pedal travel. See if you can find a "sweet spot." If you can, then you are overextending the TOB and causing the clutch to engage again, despite having the pedal down on the floor.

Here are pictures of my TOB in action. I am not using a T56, or a Viper TOB, but the parts are irrelevant, since the principle is identical.

With the clutch engaged:

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo35.jpg

Here is a picture of the TOB at full travel.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo36.jpg

I later learned that this was too much travel and I reduced it by getting a smaller bore MC (I am not saying that this is your solution).

Andrew

[Vicinity]

I'll 2nd the slave cylinder may be too tall. I had one that the inner sleeve that the release bearing rides on contacted the inner disk hub and pushed the disk into the flywheel attached pics to further illustrate
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Mine was that the hub was incorrect. Ordered a new disk and was different height.

To properly measure for this, I'd measure from the very edge (closest to the trans) on the Bell to the clutch disc at rest? And measure the TOB at full extent (rest)?

[Vicinity]

Dan,

There is some good tech here.

I also suggest doing the following test.

Get the car on jackstands and have someone inside the car. This is done with the engine turned OFF. Have the person inside the car put the trans in 4th gear. You get under and start applying a rotational force to the driveshaft. Obviously you won't be able to turn it by hand. While you are doing that, have the person inside the car start to press on the clutch, slowly. As the clutch is being released, you should eventually be able to turn the driveshaft by hand. Note the position of the clutch pedal when this happens. If the pedal is high, have the person continue to press the clutch pedal as you rotate the driveshaft. The driveshaft should be relatively easy to spin with a fully released clutch, BUT if there are any of the above isues mentioned, you will start to feel a drag as you rotate the driveshaft and you may start to hear noises from the bellhousing area. A clutch will actually start to engage again if the pressure plate fingers are overtraveled. And as Brian said, various parts of the TOB may be hitting the disk. When I was setting up my TOB, I noticed that the LS7 clutch requires less than 1/2" of travel at the spring fingers to achieve a clean release. It is entirely possible that you are over traveling the clutch.

Another test you can do, with the engine running, is to see if it shifts into gear easier when the clutch is only pressed 50-75% of the total pedal travel. See if you can find a "sweet spot." If you can, then you are overextending the TOB and causing the clutch to engage again, despite having the pedal down on the floor.

Here are pictures of my TOB in action. I am not using a T56, or a Viper TOB, but the parts are irrelevant, since the principle is identical.

With the clutch engaged:

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo35.jpg

Here is a picture of the TOB at full travel.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo36.jpg

I later learned that this was too much travel and I reduced it by getting a smaller bore MC (I am not saying that this is your solution).

Andrew

I need to remove some shims I added, so I'm going to remove the trans one last time and while I'm at it, I'll perform these tests as well as attempt to bleed the clutch without the trans installed (to be sure it's absolutely bled 100%).

[andrewb70]

I need to remove some shims I added, so I'm going to remove the trans one last time and while I'm at it, I'll perform these tests as well as attempt to bleed the clutch without the trans installed (to be sure it's absolutely bled 100%).

Do the tests that I mentioned before you remove the trans. That way you have a good idea of what is happening. The two person test I mentioned will definitely shine some light on things. Listen for the sound of the disk rubbing against the pressure plate/flywheel. As the clutch begins to release and you are able to turn the driveshaft with some resistance, you will hear the disk dragging against the pressure plate/flywheel. As the clutch releases more, it will be easier to spin the driveshaft and the rubbing noise should mostly go away. Note the position of the pedal when you are able to easily spin the driveshaft by hand with little or no noise from the disk rubbing.

Good luck and report back what you find.

Andrew

[JD'sTT55]

How I found that my slave cylinder was contacting the disk was I backed off my all of my bell housing bolts a few turns and had an assistant push the pedal as I watched through the inspection hole. The driveline would then turn by hand so that's when I started measuring the distance from the bellhousing face where the trans bolts to it to the center hub of the clutch disk and then the distance that the slave cylinder extends beyond the mounting face of trasmission. (Red arrows in pics) the TOB moves so where it rests isn't significant thats why I included a pic of a slave cylinder without a TOB. It wasn't much but enough to push in the disk.

[Vicinity]

How I found that my slave cylinder was contacting the disk was I backed off my all of my bell housing bolts a few turns and had an assistant push the pedal as I watched through the inspection hole. The driveline would then turn by hand so that's when I started measuring the distance from the bellhousing face where the trans bolts to it to the center hub of the clutch disk and then the distance that the slave cylinder extends beyond the mounting face of trasmission. (Red arrows in pics) the TOB moves so where it rests isn't significant thats why I included a pic of a slave cylinder without a TOB. It wasn't much but enough to push in the disk.

More curiosity, what kind of application did this happen on? Supposedly, the Mcleod bell is the same distance as a stock viper bell, making the entire cylinder/TOB assembly a perfect fit. Supposedly.

[andrewb70]

More curiosity, what kind of application did this happen on? Supposedly, the Mcleod bell is the same distance as a stock viper bell, making the entire cylinder/TOB assembly a perfect fit. Supposedly.

Doesn't the Viper T56 have a longer input shaft? Also, doesn't it have a different pilot bearing diameter? What pilot did you use?

Andrew

[JD'sTT55]

More curiosity, what kind of application did this happen on? Supposedly, the Mcleod bell is the same distance as a stock viper bell, making the entire cylinder/TOB assembly a perfect fit. Supposedly.
If I remember correctly it was an older dodge truck with a 360 v8 and a 4 speed. Not the same as your application but still a combination that should work but still not release like it should. I don't have personal experience with the McLeod bellhousing and the viper t56

[Vicinity]

I went ahead and sent it off to them and had them fix it. I installed the clutch disc backwards. Live and learn, I guess. So now everything's straight and the guy who worked on it is going to walk me through some concerns he had while looking it over on Monday and hopefully I'll be driving at the end of next week. Thanks guys.

[andrewb70]

I went ahead and sent it off to them and had them fix it. I installed the clutch disc backwards. Live and learn, I guess. So now everything's straight and the guy who worked on it is going to walk me through some concerns he had while looking it over on Monday and hopefully I'll be driving at the end of next week. Thanks guys.

I am glad that it was a relatively easy fix! Thanks for keeping us updated.

Andrew

[Motown 454]

don't feel bad about putting it in wrong. I had a 72 Land Cruiser and a Toyota mechanic put my disc in backwards. Glad it all set now.

[Vicinity]

don't feel bad about putting it in wrong. I had a 72 Land Cruiser and a Toyota mechanic put my disc in backwards. Glad it all set now.

I assumed the company that I purchased the kit from would have put the flywheel, pp, and clutch disk the way it was to be installed, and I didn't bother to look. Hopefully anyone with my problem can read through and understand all these issues will likely point to this problem and won't have to install the trans 6 times... ha.

This weekend I'm doing a final inspection (torqued down) and getting it aligned.