Anyone else sick of the cookie cutter Pro-touring cars these days?

[LS1NOVA]

You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.

[cornfedbill]

That's why I have a Nova with a modified stock stub, a small block Chevy and a 4-speed. My salmon pink '55 4-door Belair is definitely not a Camaro.

Don't get me wrong, I like the cool Camaros, I just was never one to follow the crowd.

I am glad to see some Volvos, AMC's, Fords, pick-ups and Pro-Touring style street rods on this site. I think bet you will even find a silver and black Charger here. There are a lot of non-traditional Pro-Touring cars here if you look.

I must admit that it is easier (I did not say cheap) to build a Camaro with a bolt on suspension system and subframe and a LS crate motor. Stepping out of the box takes a lot more energy and thought.

When I get my current projects done, I want to build a small block powered Pro-Touring Track-T or '36 Chevy with a Lotus 7 type tube frame just for kicks and giggles.

[mpozzi]

Nope, but then I think ALL of the Pro-Touring builds are pretty cool.

Mary Pozzi

[rfalker1]

I got my 68 camaro RS before I even knew what pro touring was!!! I wanted it because I thought the hid away lights was the coolest thing ever!!

So I will role with my cookie cutter with a 383 stroker and side exit exhaust hahahhahah

[SRD art]

Don't wanna get black listed but I agree. I don't like Camaros, and the 69 is my least favorite of all, but realistically it's because that's the most popular and I probably have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, lol!

My first "cool" car was a 73 4 door Nova I built back in '92 and it ran high 11s as a daily driver. I built it specifically to spank a bunch of Camaros and Mustangs in the area. But in the end, at a cruise night my Nova faded into the sea of "popular" cars and mostly went unnoticed. Now I think the tides have turned a bit and the oddball cars get a lot more attention than they used to. That's why I built a wagon, and it's an Olds instead of the more popular Chevy Malibu.

Alot of the issue is probably supply and demand of the industry. Look at the fashion world- if they say orange is the hot color now for clothing, everything starts getting produced in orange and everyone has to add orange to their wardrobe. If it's baby poo green then that will be the popular color everyone has to have. Right now the powers that be and those in the limelight say the 69 Camaro is the hot car to have and you get bonus points for throwing the billet and popular suspension parts catalog at it. Folks with the coin to build them join right in, along with a few that really just like Camaros. This sort of bothered me at first...

Realistically, these popular cars fuel the industry for the rest of us. As far as GM cars go, parts development usually starts with 1st gen F (and 68-72 X) bodies because that's where the money's at, then A bodies, 2nd gen F bodies, then G bodies... So although you (we) may not ever want to own a 69 Camaro, at least eventually the fruit of the cookie cutter tree will trickle down to us.

The fun part about all of this is building a decent ride, then becoming a decent driver and taking out the $200K "popular" cars. I can't wait to start racing my car for this purpose. Lol, there's that chip on my shoulder talking again... :)

[CornHusker4Life]

Ben, you just hurt my feelings:smoke: Personally, I think cool cars will always be cool. Tri-Fives have been cool for 50+ years. I am a truck guy as well and most people think trucks are just for hauling SH$t but I think they are works of art. To each their own but I wish I could own them all.

[parsonsj]

These days, I build a PT car a year for a local customer. This year's build is a 69 Camaro/DSE/Forgelines/Recaro/T56 Magnum/LSA. Should be an awesome car when it's done.

jp

[Rod]

OK I see what you are saying about "cookie cutter" but I think its really about what is winning and emulating a winners car, to be a winner and its a Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3 that finish at the front of many events, I know that I'm bias because I drive a camaro, but I am building a 1963 Rambler, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3 if that helps any? I like just about any PT build done right and driven hard




Don't wanna get black listed but I agree. I don't like Camaros, ... and youre black listed :getout: ha ha ha ha

[Typhoon1015]

You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.

haha, dont get me wrong, the cars are cool, but when there are 90% camaros with the following mods, innovation of the sport suffers IMO. Now JCG is doing a good job with the body widening and custom things that make their builds stand apart.

[Quickboat]

When something ain't broke why fix it?
But, all of us pukey Camaro owners, who keep spanking those COOL Nova owners are really sorry. My little N/A first gen SBC is ready for you're big bad turdbo LS anytime! ;-)

[Fras]

[QUOTE=LS1NOVA;980835]You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.[/QUO

I gotta use a cookie cutter, don't have the cash for a homemade cookie. But badass is badass. Even though boobs have become pretty cookie cutter, they are still sweet and a lot more enjoyable than 36 longs

[LS1NOVA]

When something ain't broke why fix it?
But, all of us pukey Camaro owners, who keep spanking those COOL Nova owners are really sorry. My little N/A first gen SBC is ready for you're big bad turdbo LS anytime! ;-)

Im up for a challenge. Meet me at LSFest.

[Gates72ss]

I love them all , i agree that their are alot of the same type set-ups out there ,but i guess there is really only so many ways to build a car right so that it does handle and look good...I personally love the old school style cars with just a touch of modern upgrades to make them actually perform better and keep the family safer....I prefer the old school feel because i like "old" cars, i like to ride around and feel like my father did when he was tearing it up as a teenager , you know , the nostalgia stuff..If i were actually using my car in competitions then yeah i wouldn't mind so much to have a full on Race style car, but for cruising i like the old stuff.......
Part of what drew me to hot rods / muscle cars and just about anything fast was the fact that they were cool , made cooler by their owners personal touches , like rolling art, they were mostly unique and a way to express ones ideas.....
My .02 sorry might not make much sense the way its layed out there ....

[SRD art]

Lol! This thread has some fun opinionated potential... :box2:

Truthfully my son is 14 and when he turned 12 I started talking to him about a 67 Camaro father son project. I've never wanted to own one myself but thought we could add a Camaro to the family and then when my younger son got older add a Chevelle. Funny, somehow he got hooked on Novas like I am, and in particular he likes the 73/ 74 cars like I do. And no I didn't push it on him, I guess he just grew to like what I own. But notice I didn't choose a 69 Camaro to push on him, at least I can say that! Lol!

Isn't this the beauty of Hot Rodding? You can build whatever you want, the way you want it, and it's yours, it's personal to you, you love driving it, and in the long run if someone CAN'T appreciate it at least the fact that it's what you like they're an idiot. I'm sure there are those that say my wagon is stupid because it's got more doors and a fat butt but I don't care, I like it. :twothumbs

[Quickboat]

Im up for a challenge. Meet me at LSFest.

Sure, but I am assuming you have nothing purchased out of a catolog installed on your car, since that would make you a hypocrite and consequently projectile puke......

[GrabberGT]

Hey now! Let the Camaro people keep doing what they're doing. I kind of like being a Maverick.

[SRD art]

"I kind of like being a Maverick. "

Lol!

I have a pretty nasty old school 406 small block in my 74 Nova, roughly 560 hp and 511 tq on the motor, but I'd trade a boosted 5.3 any day for it. Whoops, wait a minute did I just swing to the other side of the fence? Lol!

[sccacuda]

I wouldn't care if they were all Camaro's, so long as they are driven and beat on. It's what your supposed to do with these old cars, not sit in front of them in a lawn chair. Besides, in a sea of Camaro's, mine just stands out more!!

[GrabberGT]

Besides, in a sea of Camaro's, mine just stands out more!!

My point exactly.

[19,69camaro]

The way I see it if you don't like it don't look. The reason I waited to build a 69 Camaro was because I knew deep down that if I built any other car it would be cool, but not what I really wanted. The best I can do is make the car that I want and tweak it a bit so it won't look like every other Camaro out there.

I do agree there are a lot of builds that follow that formula. That is why most of the time I only check up on really unique builds. I am also a sucker for garage builds on a budget. For some reason those never get old.

[rdchandler]

My Car is one of the Camaro's in the sea, that said I love when some body builds "something different" and any time I see some classic car, all I think is, what would this be like as a Pro-Tour car? The Camaro's work well, everything has been well engineered and tested. For someone that does not have the resources to design engineer and test, its the easy way to go fast. More power to those who can build a BETTER (different) mouse trap! Many try, a lot "look cool" few perform.

[GNon18s]

You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.
You hit the nail on the head. How can you build a first gen camaro in a way that hasn't already been done 10+ times already?

[KnightMare]

Chose to restore my Camaro first because of simplicity, cost, and wealth of products made for the car. I love A-body's, I have 4 that I'll be doing next. Got to have something to drive first while I do the other ones

[TheJDMan]

I chose to build a 1st Gen Camaro 45 years ago when I purchased it as a 5 year old used Arizona car. I loved the first gen then and I love them now. But back in the 70's the technology simply did not exist to make them handle the way I wanted so I drag raced instead. Today, thanks to DSE, Forgeline, etc. I have put the drag strip in the past and dramatically expanded the overall capability of my 68 to the point it is actually FUN to drive. Having owned this car for 4 decades, what I really find exciting is that there are more parts available in the past 10 years than have been available for the previous 30.

As for cookie cutter, I think it depends on the context. In the PT world Camaros are plentiful, but in the real world PT Camaros are far from common. I can tell you that based on the attention my car attracts when I drive it on the street it is anything but cookie cutter.

[andrewb70]

I just glanced over in the Project Updates forum and only saw 1 or 2 first gen Camaro projects on the first page. Where are all these "cookie cutter" Camaros that you speak of?

Sure, Camaros are popular, but there is a really wide variety of cars being represented on this forum.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.

I would think that if one were to start a drama thread such as this, that the thread starter should be driving something a little less cookie cutter than a Camaro's red headed step brother with an LS engine.

[BuzzKillian]

Nope... not tired of Camaros. That being Said... Here is a wish list.
'70 Buick GS (Maybe a LS twin to my brother's 455)
'66-69 Chevelle and/or LeMans/GTO
'70-'72 Camaro and/or Firebird
Like Corn Husker said... I want them all... LOL

[icemanrd19]

hey i have all those mods ******* !!!!!!!!!


LOL jk

I really do have all of those mods bc i wanted the best of the best. Around here theres not alot of these type of builds. Maybe in SoCal or something but not here.

[alocker]

Are you ripping Camaros or tried and true parts that you can buy out of a catalog? I understand not everyone likes Camaros but how can you appreciate pro touring if you can't appreciate a built 69. As far as catalog parts go, I'm still amazed at the stuff you can bolt on to a car now and all it has done is make it easier for people to enjoy the hobby.

[srt1010]

I agree with STEVE HAYES, I loved the first gen then and I love them now. I wanted a 69 from the age of 14, but settled on a 72 monte when I turned 16. In 1999 I purchased my current 69. When I first built it, it was a weekend cruiser and bracket racer, caltracs, drag shocks, moroso super trick springs, etc. I knew nothing about pro-touring until approximately 5 years ago and figured, why not get a little more driveability out of it. Since then DSE parts, a TREMEC, better brakes etc. It's not a 6 figure build by any means, but I just got it back together after a year off the road with a new body resto, since the paint an body work were well over 20 years old. I am proud to say it's home built and I love every minute I spend in it, even if the wife bitches about the noise and fumes. I do however like all old cars, my dad has a 71 nova and we're currently building a 53 International L-110 pick-up, that's setting on an S-10 chassis.

[SDS MACHINING]

Plenty of guys building cars that dont fit into any " cookie cutter" I have ever seen. maybe your thinking this is a tuner forum.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Funny enough this is how I see the conversation going;

"So I've come into some money and I've always wanted a cool car. Can you help me?"

Car guy or supplier responds;
" yes we can do that, what is a cool car to you?"

Fact is most guys find Camaros to be a cool car, but let's just leave that alone for a minute

CG asks " want lots of power?" = LS will give the best of all worlds, power & drivability. so hard to argue that point
CG asks "want it to handle and drive well?" = "no I want to crash and ride like crap" so insert any of the suspension companies
CG asks "want big tires?" = what a stupid question

You can see where I'm going with this. Given the opportunity I bet 90% of the guys on here would be building this exact combination if they could.

Your honor I rest my case! :machine:

[Enzo Damico]

Well I see it this way.I am a new member here.I just bought my 69 camaro almost 100 percent done except the pro touring touch which I'm doing now.I think the opposite of you.To me cookie cutter is everything on the road now.In the past 2 years I have went through a Nissan GTR,Srt 8 jeep,mini cooper jcw and backdraft cobra. All brand new,I smile more at my camaro because it has it own personality to me.I Also kept the cobra ,to me it just art in the Garage

[dontlifttoshift]

Dude! Huge points for having a disco ball in your garage! #garage envy

[GeoffP]

I don't disagree that there are a lot of Camaros on this site, mine being one of them. I can't say they are cookie cutter though because each is unique in its own right. Just because they have mini-tubs and Forgeline wheels (among the other things you mentioned) doesn't make them cookie cutter. As someone else said, people tend to emulate what works and is successful at events. It just happens that Camaros tend to be at the top over the last couple of years. If you notice, this is starting to change as other late 60's to early 70's cars are starting to become more popular. Speed Tech's Nova is one of those cars - that car is just B-A-D. Having said this, am I going to sell my Camaro just because it's not completely unique or because someone thinks it's "pukey" - no, definitely not. My car has been in my family since the mid-80's and was a totaled wreck (that really wasn't that bad) which ended up in a guy's garage for about 10 years after the wreck. It's not perfect but it is mine and I enjoy it regularly and don't care what others think of the visible rust holes, scratches and even a few small dents. While yes there are people on here who have paid lots of money to have someone like DSE, Cris Gonzales, etc to build their car, there are those like me who've just owned theirs for a long time and built it the way they want over time. My point? There's no reason to go calling names or making derogatory comments just to stir up a thread or see if you can get a lot of comments in response. Let's all just got to our preferred events with the cars that we own and enjoy them. Isn't that what it's really all about???

Edit - found a couple typos and completed a thought that didn't make sense when reading it back

[garickman]

Dude! Huge points for having a disco ball in your garage! #garage envy

I second the cool factor of the disco ball.

[Enzo Damico]

Thanks,I do a lot of party for my kids.Im a disco light junky,I have lazers ,lights ,smoke machines.my neighbors think aliens have landed in my garage when light are shinning into the woods.

[ragz]

I have waited 10 years to start on building my " Cookie Cutter " Camaro. When i first got my 67 RS rag the options for pro tour (or what ever the term was then) were far different and much less affordable than they are now,so as i order all my parts from the classic ind catalog and my complete bolt in front to back tci suspension, as well as the 525hp connect and cruise ls3, i can only smile at what a cookie cutter can do now days and am very thankful to have a life long dream coming true.I also realize i could have bought a variety of vehicles to start, but there is always room for another fast, good handling camaro .Now i just got to get this cookie baked,can't wait!

[JMitch19]

I like all types of cars. I think if you are building a car that you plan to keep forever you should build whatever you want however you want it. Also if you have the funds to allow you to build whatever you want and you're not worried about resale value I say build whatever you like.

That being said last fall I sold one of those cookie cutter Camaros. I'm currently building another one of those cookie cutter Camaros. I enjoy building the cars and I might end up having more money in them than maybe I should. I'm not willing to take a big loss on a car if I need/want to sell the car. My 68 sold for a small profit. I know that is rare and you can't expect that to happen every time, but I think if you pick the right car and the right parts you can minimize losses.

I considered other platforms before I bought my 69 Camaro. I just couldn't find enough examples of Novas, 2nd gen Camaros, ect selling for good money. I just think the first gen Camaros are a better investment(if you can call it that) than a lot of other pro touring options. I'd say even among first gens the 69 brings a 15-20% premium everything else being the same. I know the original question wasn't about the resale value of a pro touring car, but I think for a lot of us who don't have unlimited budgets it is a big part of the reason we choose to build what we build.

[SRD art]

Ha! I added fuel to the fire to see where things would go and this has been a very entertaining thread! :) I've gotten several laughs out of it, keep it going!

Really I have nothing against Camaros, as I bet a lot of you don't. I think, at least for me, deep down I don't have one because of a little bit of envy. Flat out they are cool but they're more than I'd want to spend on a car, again the demand and supply thing. I particularly like early 2nd gen Camaros, again because they're not the popular car, and as I stated I tend to do what is unpopular. But if I had an opportunity to buy an inexpensive 69 truth is I'd be all over it because they are proven and their design is timeless. So instead I am a Nova owner, in particular I like the less popular (less expensive) 73/74 cars. If I can build my 74 the way I want to it'll be pretty killer, even amongst Camaros or whatever.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/73Trogdor28-1.jpg

Geoff mentioned Speed Tech's Nova. I just recently interviewed with Speed Tech and will be joining their crew very soon. While I was there last week I saw Resurrexion in person. It is Bad. But so also is Jay's upcoming 2nd gen, Roger's 69 Red Zed and the 69 Camaro that is getting built in the shop.

Although I get sick of Camaros steeling the limelight from my maybe not so worthy cars, I agree with what has been mentioned, the key to a successful car is to design it in a way that it doesn't LOOK like it's brother, even if it has the same parts under it and then make it perform. The numbers don't lie. If Camaros make up the top 10 at the event, it's because what they and their drivers do, not what type of car it is. There I go trading sides again, lol.

[snappytravis]

Different strokes for Different Folks, 20 years ago if It wasn't a chevy I wouldn't look at it, I am now 40 and I like all cars. I Don't give a ****, If you like my car or don't, You are entitled to say camaros suck and your over seeing them, I personally needed a breather from mine so I did the old 51 chevy, From a car guys standpoint there are so many parts available for them and a lots of different ways to build them, Being on this website and not liking camaros is like going to the tittie bar and not liking boobs,, Just my opinion

[Todd in Vancouver]

Thanks,I do a lot of party for my kids.Im a disco light junky,I have lazers ,lights ,smoke machines.my neighbors think aliens have landed in my garage when light are shinning into the woods.

Enzo, I want to party at your house! Can I wear my leisure suit Larry disco set-up?

"She's a Super Freak, Yeowwwwwwwww!"

[Ron S]

No denying the production numbers of the first gen. Camaro's or the fact you can pick up parts for them at Walmart. That said, it is the best/easiest Pro touring car to build, and it can't hurt that it had some of the best lines of any car ever built. I own a 68, I also own a the second most built car, a first gen. Mustang. Not because because everyone was building them, but because of love the cars. I have a long list of cars I want to build(make my own before I die). The Mustang, and Camaro were high on the list. Unfortunatly there are alot of others, an AMX for instince, which was quite a ways down the list became avalible, and now I'm making it my own. Sometimes its just timing and avalibility.

The hard part for the Camaro builders of today is making it there own, Not alot that hasn't been done to a first gen, it creates quite a challenge. There are alot of them on the site, but I still love the lines on the old girl.

[shmoov69]

LMAO!! Winner right here!!!

Really, that is why I got a red 69 Camaro with TTII's on it.... To be different!! LOL!!! But I do gotta say, the wheels were bought in 98 or so and the "PT" style started in the early 90's with it, and it was originally red as well. So, I may be a poser, but an early one anyway! LOL!


I would think that if one were to start a drama thread such as this, that the thread starter should be driving something a little less cookie cutter than a Camaro's red headed step brother with an LS engine.

[Aficionado]

Nah, still not tired of seeing them, though I admit it takes a lot for one to really stand out from the crowd. I'm still fairly new to Camaros, though, so I also probably haven't had time to get well and truly sick of them...love to build one if I could afford it.

All that said, I'm building a Stingray, and that didn't happen by accident. To each his own.

[Typhoon1015]

The hard part for the Camaro builders of today is making it there own, Not alot that hasn't been done to a fist gen, it creates quite a challenge. There are alot of them on the site, but I still love the lines on the old girl.

This is really what stands out to me. I love Camaros, but it is getting increasingly harder to build one that may stand out from the crowd. Camaro's are awesome pro touring cars and are very proven. If I wanted to build one, I would have a hard task to make it my own, and try something different, be it little body changes, or different interior/engine combo's.

[Barrrf]

I wish I had a cookie cutter PT car TBH.

FML I have a Chevelle - and even cool people like Anvil are making it harder to buy parts for this car. Guess I better learn the art of sheet metal fab.

Toodles.......

[Quickboat]

This entire argument is really absurd IMO. There are so many different levels of finances involved with the people who own these cars that many of them are still in a state of a build that is taking years. Many of these cars have been purchased long before the dreams of a PT car we imagined. Many of these cars were a purchase opportunity that did not really involve model choice, mainly a deal came to fruition and the purchase was made. Lastly what is really being criticized here is more of a SUCCESSFUL MARKETING campaign to which this automotive genre has been borne. Fast cars shredding rubber on a track!
This all discounts the fact that the desire of the owner is the have the most competitive car their finances will allow. If that is being a cookie cutter then SO BE IT! Cookie cutters ARE SWEET!

[XLexusTech]

My first "cool" car was a 73 4 door Nova I built back in '92 and it ran high 11s as a daily driver.

The fun part about all of this is building a decent ride, then becoming a decent driver and taking out the $200K "popular" cars. I can't wait to start racing my car for this purpose. Lol, there's that chip on my shoulder talking again... :)

The funniest line in this thread underlined above..... Not to knock any chips off or anything.. but as a Camaro owner.. i have to tell you.. your 4door Nova was never cool it was a four door

:spank2: Just kidding :-)

[Steve Chryssos]

Have at it!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Quickboat]

The funniest line in this thread underlined above..... Not to knock any chips off or anything.. but as a Camaro owner.. i have to tell you.. your 4door Nova was never cool it was a four door

:spank2: Just kidding :-)

Always loved those '74 5 mph bumpers.........NOT!!! ;-)

[cornfedbill]

When something ain't broke why fix it?
But, all of us pukey Camaro owners, who keep spanking those COOL Nova owners are really sorry. My little N/A first gen SBC is ready for you're big bad turdbo LS anytime! ;-)

OUCH!

Did you ever look at the front to rear weight bias of a 3rd gen Nova compared to a 1st gen Camaro? Much closer to 50/50 and all the bolt-ons fit.

Actually one of my all time favorite real daily drivers is my buddy '68 Camaro with a 600 horse 440 inch fuel injected small block that knocks down 20 mpg with the A/C on driving to work every day, has 13" Corvette discs and owner modified front suspension geometry. It drives like a modern car, looks stock and can spank 99% of the cars on the road. I really like that it is owner built and driven often on the roads. So I can like a Camaro if I try.

What I have a difficult time warming up to are trailer queens. Real cars have rock chips!

[DesertFox]

I drive a 3rd Gen GTA... I don't think I deserve the right to pass judgment on anyone else's ride..
That being said, if any if any of ya'll get sick of your "cookie cutter cars" I'd be happy to give it a good home.
Seriously I've found each one is like a snowflake, similar but different in it's own way. I think the majority of people on this board build they car they want for themselves, not not please the masses.

[SLO_Z28]

OK I see what you are saying about "cookie cutter" but I think its really about what is winning and emulating a winners car, to be a winner and its a Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3 that finish at the front of many events, I know that I'm bias because I drive a camaro, but I am building a 1963 Rambler, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3 if that helps any? I like just about any PT build done right and driven hard


Sorry, but I have to point out the irony in this as you, and everyone else, was smoked by a 66 mustang and a corvette this weekend.


Always loved those '74 5 mph bumpers.........NOT!!! ;-)

Hey now. My car is a sexy beast!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/118-1.jpg

[cornfedbill]

:hammer:
I just glanced over in the Project Updates forum and only saw 1 or 2 first gen Camaro projects on the first page. Where are all these "cookie cutter" Camaros that you speak of?

Sure, Camaros are popular, but there is a really wide variety of cars being represented on this forum.

Andrew

Andrew,

Don't muddy this heated discussion with FACTS. What were you thinking? :hammer:

Ignorance is bliss. You just burst our bubble.

[cornfedbill]

I agree with STEVE HAYES, I loved the first gen then and I love them now. I wanted a 69 from the age of 14, but settled on a 72 monte when I turned 16. In 1999 I purchased my current 69. When I first built it, it was a weekend cruiser and bracket racer, caltracs, drag shocks, moroso super trick springs, etc. I knew nothing about pro-touring until approximately 5 years ago and figured, why not get a little more driveability out of it. Since then DSE parts, a TREMEC, better brakes etc. It's not a 6 figure build by any means, but I just got it back together after a year off the road with a new body resto, since the paint an body work were well over 20 years old. I am proud to say it's home built and I love every minute I spend in it, even if the wife bitches about the noise and fumes. I do however like all old cars, my dad has a 71 nova and we're currently building a 53 International L-110 pick-up, that's setting on an S-10 chassis.

Oh no!!!! Not another cookie cutter 53 International L-110 pick-up!!!

[rjp71]

You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.

That's why I went outside the box with Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame and HREs.

[cornfedbill]

My car has been in my family since the mid-80's... It's not perfect but it is mine and I enjoy it regularly and don't care what others think of the visible rust holes, scratches and even a few small dents... Isn't that what it's really all about???

Agreed!

I have a '74 Nova because as a 15 year punk old shopping with my dad, we liked the way it looked and the big engine bay for turbos (which never happened). It's been in the family since I bought it in 1978. If I had bought a Camaro, I would be in the "cookie cutter crowd" I guess.

The important part is to like what you have, drive it and have fun. Everything else is just noise.

[andrewb70]

:hammer:

Andrew,

Don't muddy this heated discussion with FACTS. What were you thinking? :hammer:

Ignorance is bliss. You just burst our bubble.

FML....what was I thinking? Carry on....I love internet drama....:smoke:

Andrew

[cornfedbill]

Sorry, but I have to point out the irony in this as you, and everyone else, was smoked by a 66 mustang and a corvette this weekend.



Hey now. My car is a sexy beast!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/118-1.jpg

Wow! Just look at that sea of cookie cutter first gens in that photo??!!

I do love the second gens!

[High Plains Mopars]

Nah, I'm not sick of them, I just keep right on walkin' past them, no problem.

Honestly, I can't fault someone for building a Camaro. They are nice looking, reasonably easy to acquire, and reasonable easy to modify. With nearly 3/4 of a million produced in the original run and more being built by Dyancorn everyday, they obviously are a very prolific chassis to base a build on.

I would challenge the assumption of them being a "winning" platform since pro touring as a catagory is too nebulas to define, much less create a competition class for them to actually race in. Even back in the golden years of Trans Am competition, Camaro only won 2 of the 7 years for the manufacturers trpohy, and that wasn't until SCCA loosend up the rules enough to allow them some suspension changes. IMO, Good Guys is a checkbook competition, and not reflective of a real racing series. In all honesty, 1st gen Camaro suspension geometry stinks. But, maybe that is why there is such an aftermarket presence for the 1st gen Camaro - to correct all the inherent ills of the platform that GM saddled them with and to satisfy the demand for better performance out of a desireable platform.

I would rather ask why is it that the 2 million+ 1st generation Mustangs don't have a more obvious presence in the pro-touring segment? There should be a 2:1 ratio of Mustang builds to Camaro builds based on sheer volume, yet somehow that doesn't seem to be the case.

[andrewb70]

....

I would rather ask why is it that the 2 million+ 1st generation Mustangs don't have a more obvious presence in the pro-touring segment? There should be a 2:1 ratio of Mustang builds to Camaro builds based on sheer volume, yet somehow that doesn't seem to be the case.

Tony,

That is a very good question. I think there are a couple of factors at play here. I think one factor might be that Ford's modern engines don't fit inside an unmodified engine bay of the Mustang. Ford's OHV engines are just massive, so to use them the builder automatically has to heavily modify the front suspension. On a Camaro, a modern LS engine can be bolted in without any heavy fabrication work. I think DSE definitely had this in mind when they designed their Mustang parts. Their front suspension doesn't require as much fabrication as some of the other options.

Perhaps another factor is the demographics of owners.

Andrew

[Quickboat]

OUCH!

Did you ever look at the front to rear weight bias of a 3rd gen Nova compared to a 1st gen Camaro? Much closer to 50/50 and all the bolt-ons fit.

Actually one of my all time favorite real daily drivers is my buddy '68 Camaro with a 600 horse 440 inch fuel injected small block that knocks down 20 mpg with the A/C on driving to work every day, has 13" Corvette discs and owner modified front suspension geometry. It drives like a modern car, looks stock and can spank 99% of the cars on the road. I really like that it is owner built and driven often on the roads. So I can like a Camaro if I try.

What I have a difficult time warming up to are trailer queens. Real cars have rock chips!

Sure, this was harsh. The thread was rather insulting in the first place. I dont have near the money most of these guys have in their cars, but I built it MYSELF. I'm not sick of it and I will run with the best of 'em.

[Steve Chryssos]

It's so funny... Back in 2002, I was reading "Excellence", a magazine for Porsche enthusiasts, while at the same time getting turned off by the whole Boyd smooth look that was so prevalent. I saw a set of 3 piece modular Kinesis forged wheels and fell in love. The light bulb went off also. These were $4K wheels. Real rock star money as far as wheels were concerned. And the exposed hardware was the perfect contrast to the smoothser nonsense and the perfect complement to my design plans. Meanwhile Stielow was putting a set of Fikses on the Mule.
I was so excited. "No one would dare spend $4K on a set of wheels!" I thought. "My car will be totally unique" said I. With my car photographed for the May 2003 issue of PHR, I figured I was a trendsetter. Nope. The prior issue of PHR comes out and guess what. That Andrew Borodin fella from Pro-touring.com made the cover before me, and he has the EXACT SAME 3 piece wheel. So much for that plan.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/0304PHR_GTO01zoom-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/0305PHR_Bartone05az-1.jpg

Andrew,
I'm still mad at you. Big jerk!

Who would have ever thought that 3 piece modular forged wheels would be considered commonplace. And the truth is... Out in the real world, like at car shows, you don't see $4-$5K forged 3 piece wheels. It just looks that way here in message board land.

Ultimately, find your own style. Style and budget are two very different concepts.
/Steevo

[cornfedbill]

Sure, this was harsh. The thread was rather insulting in the first place. I dont have near the money most of these guys have in their cars, but I built it MYSELF. I'm not sick of it and I will run with the best of 'em.

No offense taken. I am finding this thread totally entertaining.

But, IF I ever get my Nova on the road, I'll take your challenge.

[JohnUlaszek]

I can count on one hand how many real pro-touring cars I see on the roads under normal circumstances. Even if its a 69 Camaro with torque-thrusts I am always rubbernecking. Its way too easy to think Pro-Touring.com or Popular Hotrodding is reality -- real PT cars are rare in the real world.
So yeah, maybe they look cookie cutter, but cookies always do when you are looking in a cookie jar.

[MrQuick]

Sorry, but I have to point out the irony in this as you, and everyone else, was smoked by a 66 mustang and a corvette this weekend.



Hey now. My car is a sexy beast!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/118-1.jpg

James, your such a knuckle head....thats like saying you suck cause your 993 GT2 was beat by a 996 GT3. All performance,sure but purely out classed.


But yeah your right, that big bumper is a bit erotic. LOL

[MrQuick]

I can count on one hand how many real pro-touring cars I see on the roads under normal circumstances. Even if its a 69 Camaro with torque-thrusts I am always rubbernecking. Its way too easy to think Pro-Touring.com or Popular Hotrodding is reality -- real PT cars are rare in the real world.
So yeah, maybe they look cookie cutter, but cookies always do when you are looking in a cookie jar.

I know, I went to the last car show and could have swore it was 1997 out there. I can't believe how many Accel coils are still being used.

[GrabberGT]

And the truth is... Out in the real world, like at car shows, you don't see $4-$5K forged 3 piece wheels. It just looks that way here in message board land.

Ultimately, find your own style. Style and budget are two very different concepts.
/Steevo

A great point... Our PT.com world is full of the "Cookie Cutter" builds but in the real world they are few. Even at the GG event I recently attended, there were no "Cookie Cutters" as defined above. Granted there were still 23 of 73 drivers in Camaros, but that also spans all generations. I still find it interesting to see how each one goes about making theirs unique and perform to their liking with varying levels of budget.

As far as the Mustang crowd goes, I've never understood it either. It goes beyond PT as I remember back in the late 90's being at a drag strip with my Dad asking a similar question. In my disappointment at seeing the number of 1st gen Camaros gutted and beat into submission (I was at the time, a fan of the car) at the sake of going faster I asked, "Why arent more Mustangs being turned into Drag cars?". Never got an acceptable answer to that one. I think he blamed the aftermarket for making the SBC and BBC such an affordable platform for modifications. Inexpensive, go fast chevy parts, go in an inexpensive go fast looking chevy. AKA Camaro

I think in the end, GM had a fantastic design in the Camaro which led to its many levels of modifications and ultimately its winning pedigree here in PT land. Given the same amnt of aftermarket attention, I imagine just about any of our cars could perform on just about the same the same level. To me thats part of the fun of having something different.

Anyway, like said before, build what you want, how you want. Just PLEASE use the parts for what they were meant for. Just think of the number of subframes being sold for the Camaro platform. Now think about how many of them you see truly being run like they are meant to be or even anywhere close. Heck there is Chassisworks, DSE, Speedtech, Ridetech... all making kits for the 1st gen. It amazes me that the market isnt over saturated yet with them yet.

[Quickboat]

No offense taken. I am finding this thread totally entertaining.

But, IF I ever get my Nova on the road, I'll take your challenge.

Heck mine is on jackstands too. I cant afford all of the "catolog" pieces so I am hodge podging all I can. My first run might be real interesting. Hope to see some of you guys out there this year.

[cornfedbill]

Heck mine is on jackstands too. I cant afford all of the "catolog" pieces so I am hodge podging all I can. My first run might be real interesting. Hope to see some of you guys out there this year.

So if you are not part of the DSE cookie crowd, what are you running for your suspension?

I am going to do the G-mod the hard way with Landrum 700 lb. coils and adjustable spacers, Landrum 225 lb. asphalt leafs (low arc), Bilstein circle track shocks, AFCO low friction bushing/ball joint kit and the Pozzi cheap big brake set-up. I use all circle track stuff because it costs less and I can live without the nice paint and chrome.

For a quick ratio steering box I am using an '88 IROC box (rebuilt from Advance Auto Parts online), a mid-70's full size pick-up rag joint, and flare adapters from Lee.

It is truly low budget. I horse traded for half of my motor, but it pulls hard from idle up to 6000 RPM. I love big bore small blocks!

[Steve Chryssos]

So if you are not part of the DSE cookie crowd, what are you running for your suspension?

I am going to do the G-mod the hard way with Landrum 700 lb. coils and adjustable spacers, Landrum 225 lb. asphalt leafs (low arc), Bilstein circle track shocks, AFCO low friction bushing/ball joint kit and the Pozzi cheap big brake set-up. I use all circle track stuff because it costs less and I can live without the nice paint and chrome.

For a quick ratio steering box I am using an '88 IROC box (rebuilt from Advance Auto Parts online), a mid-70's full size pick-up rag joint, and flare adapters from Lee.

It is truly low budget. I horse traded for half of my motor, but it pulls hard from idle up to 6000 RPM. I love big bore small blocks!

That sounds like a great build. Is there a thread?

[Quickboat]

So if you are not part of the DSE cookie crowd, what are you running for your suspension?

Well I'm not hodge podging everything. I am going with ridetech 4-link in the rear, cut down a Monte 12 bolt for the rear. The front is G-mod, tall ball joints, A-body steering arms, eibach springs, modified addco swaybar, C5 HD front rotors w/ Tahoe calipers, C5 rear rotors w/Ford 45mm rear calipers, front koni shocks ect, ect.

[cornfedbill]

That sounds like a great build. Is there a thread?

It is on ice right now waiting to get my 55 project (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?96883-Father-Daughter-55-Belair&highlight=) on the road.

I guess it is time for a build thread.

[cornfedbill]

Well I'm not hodge podging everything. I am going with ridetech 4-link in the rear, cut down a Monte 12 bolt for the rear. The front is G-mod, tall ball joints, A-body steering arms, eibach springs, modified addco swaybar, C5 HD front rotors w/ Tahoe calipers, C5 rear rotors w/Ford 45mm rear calipers, front koni shocks ect, ect.

It sounds a bit more high tech than my Nova. Do you have a build thread yet? It looks like a great project. I am eager to see how it stacks up against the "catalog" cars.

[srh3trinity]

I am not sick of them. I occasionally stumble across a build of a first gen that has gotten lost in the mix that raises an eyebrow or does something different. I usually don't follow the first gen builds that closely. I tend to watch the second gen builds, C3 Corvettes, Ron's 5K Mustang and AMX, and the occasional less popular model builds. Nothing wrong with building a catalog car. I have tried to piece together my second gen build and save some dollars here and there and tried to figure out a better way to build a mousetrap, but in the end, I have sold off a lot of those parts and went in a more tried and true direction. If you have the money, it is pretty easy for the first gen guys (and has gotten easier for the second gen guys) to build a killer car. Look at what Stielow chooses. That guy has the know how and ability to build anything he wants and he chooses to use DSE parts.

[andrewb70]

It's so funny... Back in 2002, I was reading "Excellence", a magazine for Porsche enthusiasts, while at the same time getting turned off by the whole Boyd smooth look that was so prevalent. I saw a set of 3 piece modular Kinesis forged wheels and fell in love. The light bulb went off also. These were $4K wheels. Real rock star money as far as wheels were concerned. And the exposed hardware was the perfect contrast to the smoothser nonsense and the perfect complement to my design plans. Meanwhile Stielow was putting a set of Fikses on the Mule.
I was so excited. "No one would dare spend $4K on a set of wheels!" I thought. "My car will be totally unique" said I. With my car photographed for the May 2003 issue of PHR, I figured I was a trendsetter. Nope. The prior issue of PHR comes out and guess what. That Andrew Borodin fella from Pro-touring.com made the cover before me, and he has the EXACT SAME 3 piece wheel. So much for that plan.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/0304PHR_GTO01zoom-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/0305PHR_Bartone05az-1.jpg

Andrew,
I'm still mad at you. Big jerk!

Who would have ever thought that 3 piece modular forged wheels would be considered commonplace. And the truth is... Out in the real world, like at car shows, you don't see $4-$5K forged 3 piece wheels. It just looks that way here in message board land.

Ultimately, find your own style. Style and budget are two very different concepts.
/Steevo

Steevo,

You made my day. I am sorry I beat you to the punch. You know I didn't mean it...:smoke:

Interestingly enough, 3 of the PHR cover cars in 2003 wore the same Kinesis wheels. The two mentioned above and the 2nd gen Vette...

I will also concur on the truth that 3 piece modular wheels, and "cookie cutter" Camaros are by no means common in the "real world." You go to any local car show or cruise and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a dozen cars with TTII wheels on them. So while these things seem common in out little slice of paradise, the truth is that our cars are extreme outliers (3 or more standard deviations from the mean) aka freaks...

Andrew

[Steve Chryssos]

Steevo,

You made my day. I am sorry I beat you to the punch. You know I didn't mean it...:smoke:

Andrew

Big jerk!

[andrewb70]

Big jerk!

I love you!

[rfalker1]

Actually have none of that stuff in my camaro... No LS, no dse, no minitub and no forgelines!!!! So I guess i need to retract my cookie cutter statement!!!

[cornfedbill]

So while these things seem common in out little slice of paradise, the truth is that our cars are extreme outliers (3 or more standard deviations from the mean) aka freaks...

Oh no. That can't be. And all this time I was enjoying our little slice of paradise. That's two times that my bubble of ignorance has been burst in one day.

The truth is that I began plans for a PT build for my Nova more than 15 years ago before the term was coined. I loved the IMSA clones of the late 70's and early 80's. The reality is that raising 5 children put the project on mothballs until the term caught on. Now only one is left and she loves cars too.

My driver in high school was a 74 Vega GT with a huge air dam I built and fiberglass front end. It looked funny next to all the jacked up cars with M50/15's sticking out of the quarters and tunnel rams poking out of the hoods, but it could beat all the British cars on the twisty back roads.

I am finally glad to find a group that loves to go around corners.

[Quickboat]

...

I will also concur on the truth that 3 piece modular wheels, and "cookie cutter" camaros are by no means common in the "real world." you go to any local car show or cruise and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a dozen cars with ttii wheels on them.....

Andrew

lol!!!!

[Quickboat]

It sounds a bit more high tech than my Nova. Do you have a build thread yet? It looks like a great project. I am eager to see how it stacks up against the "catalog" cars.

I am taking pictures along the way and will be putting them together for a thread eventually....after it proves to run as hoped.

[Rod]

h aha ha ha ha This thread is great!!! (and I have a new Bangshift story idea... thanks) here I go (pulls up soap box) ok cookie cutter is were you will end up, you might start out thinking youre really different and edgey, and then you will go to the first race and get stomped on and then go home and look for ways to run faster- if your serious about racing (I was there) if I would have just raced locally I would have never changed a thing, but at the bigger events and traveling around showed me what i needed...here it is from the start


My car with boxed A-arms, 383 stroker, koni shocks, factory disc brakes, corvette wheels, after an azz woop, I looked at shocks and control arms
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/IMG_1065-1.jpg

after control arms and shock upgrade I was faster but still sucked - I just sucked a little less then before, and needed to go faster....next better upgrade wheels and tires with custom offsets and gummies, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/IMG_4441-1.jpg

fatter wheels and tires.. check... still need to be faster, I was faster but still sucked - I just sucked a little less then before, what now? racing seats, bigger brakes, lighter weight maybe some carbon fiber, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that

better but....., what now? LS swap, 12 bolt or ford 9, lightweight drive shaft, upgraded shock to even better ones, DSE frame parts, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/01/IMG_7472-1.jpg

better but.....still need to be faster, I was faster but still sucked - I just sucked a little less then before, what now? tub the front and rear for bigger wheels, more carbon fiber to lighten the car, better fuel system, coil overs, better wheel hubs, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/150828_10200729467589505_1740238094_n_zp-1.jpg

and here we are at a Cookie Cutter Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS, etc,....ok....just without the forgelines, and now I just sucked a little less then before

[DartorDemon]

You know the deal, Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS3, etc. If I see one more catalog car Im going to puke.

Yep, honestly, i never liked 1st camaro's to begin with. I prefer my PT duster, the number of PT dusters is still under 20.

[BuzzKillian]

Rod... Man You crack me up!! That is one post Full of truth. I love the articles you're doing for Bangshift, too.

OK... Now I'm going to go try to suck a little less.... LOL

[califconstruct]

h aha ha ha ha This thread is great!!! (and I have a new Bangshift story idea... thanks) here I go (pulls up soap box) ok cookie cutter is were you will end up, you might start out thinking youre really different and edgey, and then you will go to the first race and get stomped on and then go home and look for ways to run faster- if your serious about racing (I was there) if I would have just raced locally I would have never changed a thing, but at the bigger events and traveling around showed me what i needed...here it is from the start


My car with boxed A-arms, 383 stroker, koni shocks, factory disc brakes, corvette wheels, after an azz woop, I looked at shocks and control arms
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/IMG_1065-1.jpg

after control arms and shock upgrade I was faster but still sucked - I just sucked a little less then before, and needed to go faster....next better upgrade wheels and tires with custom offsets and gummies, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/IMG_4441-1.jpg

fatter wheels and tires.. check... still need to be faster, I was faster but still sucked - I just sucked a little less then before, what now? racing seats, bigger brakes, lighter weight maybe some carbon fiber, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that

better but....., what now? LS swap, 12 bolt or ford 9, lightweight drive shaft, upgraded shock to even better ones, DSE frame parts, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/01/IMG_7472-1.jpg

better but.....still need to be faster, I was faster but still sucked - I just sucked a little less then before, what now? tub the front and rear for bigger wheels, more carbon fiber to lighten the car, better fuel system, coil overs, better wheel hubs, what are the pros using.... let me ask... and get some of that
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/150828_10200729467589505_1740238094_n_zp-1.jpg

and here we are at a Cookie Cutter Camaro, minitubs, DSE frame, Forgelines, LS, etc,....ok....just without the forgelines, and now I just sucked a little less then before



I like it.! truth be told!.

[uxojerry]

Lot of different builds are going on like RX7s, 240zs, etc, with LS swaps, turbos, and handling mods. There just not members of this forum. Maybe all of us should invite members from other forums, when we see an interesting car getting built.

The number 1 market in the US, is for performance sedans. M3, C63, CTS-V, etc. Old Jaguar XJs would make an excellent platform for a pro-touring sedan. An Malibu from the 80s wouldnt be bad either.

Performance SUVs is another market with potential. Of course none of my ideas are any good, until the world's supply of old Camaros has been exhausted, lol.

[uxojerry]

double post

[Nicks67GTO]

Always loved those '74 5 mph bumpers.........NOT!!! ;-)

Oh man, I had to carry a 5mph bumper setup out of a junk yard about 10 years ago. There was no way to get back there with a truck. If you saw this place you would understand. Anyhow a friend and I had to carry one of those a good 1/4 mile to the road to pick it up.....those things arent just ugly they are heavy as hell.

[Steve Chryssos]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/01/IMG_7472-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/150828_10200729467589505_1740238094_n_zp-1.jpg

That is a fabulous transformation.

[BonzoHansen]

I'll take a camaro running down the street over an alternative on jack stands...and I'll take an alternative on the street over a camaro on jackstands...

my problem is a having both a running camaro and a jackstand camaro...should I be happy or sad! lol

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

nope not bored yet.. could use some more.



hell I am in GA and there is a BIG pt presence.. but even STILL I am one of the VERY few that is driving a PT style car.. let alone a SF.

so yea.. lets see some more dammit..

[Steve Chryssos]

It'd be nice if this could evolve into a design thread. If the current trend is cookie cutter, what inspires you? These days, I'm wholly infatuated with .....

http://www.sportscardigest.com

and

http://www.prsguitars.com

[andrewb70]

It'd be nice if this could evolve into a design thread. If the current trend is cookie cutter, what inspires you? These days, I'm wholly infatuated with .....

http://www.sportscardigest.com

and

http://www.prsguitars.com

These days I am feeling nostalgic and I find myself digging this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

but with old school slotted mags...

The world needs some more cars with stuff sticking out of the hood or no hoods at all.

[Steve Chryssos]

Yes, yes! And SO easy to merge the build styles. .... Another: Zombie Assault Vehicles make me happy.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/zombieapocalypsezombiescapeporchademotiv-1.jpg

http://deathcars.blogspot.com/

[Quickboat]

These days I am feeling nostalgic and I find myself digging this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

but with old school slotted mags...

The world needs some more cars with stuff sticking out of the hood or no hoods at all.

Them cones are hard as heck to see with them carbs stickin up!

[Barrrf]

Cones? Where we're going we dont need cones.........

cuz its straight.

[andrewb70]

Them cones are hard as heck to see with them carbs stickin up!

I hate cones....So no problem there...LOL

Andrew

[SRD art]

I can count on one hand how many real pro-touring cars I see on the roads under normal circumstances.

OK, finally I have a soap box to actually stand on. I'm officially changing my point of view to "anyone else sick of the pansies who dump a butt load of $ into a pro-touring car and only drive it on race day or take it to a car show?" :box2:

My wagon sees daily use, no matter the weather. It slides around a bit in the snow but hey, I just call that drift practice. It runs fine on 87 octane. Pretty sure by definition it's a full pro-touring car, only thing not done yet is I'm saving my pennies to put together a disc 9" rear, so for now it still sports the factory 7.5" with drum brakes. It's got some great suspension upgrades, a mild but respectable 406 small block, a roll cage, seats that keep you planted, 5 way harnesses and a bunch of gauges so people think it's a race car. I also towed my Nova with it 2000 miles across the country and I will be doing it again in a couple weeks. I creatively have less than $10K in the whole car too. That I say is a REAL pro-touring car. ;)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/Tow1-1.jpg

Of course if I put $150K- $250+ into my car I would probably never drive it on the street either, lol!

[astroracer]

After almost two years working on my "one-off" cookie, I would give just about anything to build a bolt together cookie... Looks real appetizing right now. :)

[LS1NOVA]

Glad to see this thread transforming and inspring some to think outside the box of the current trend.

What inspired me to start it is my current feelings towards my current car. Yes some prodded me that it was ironic that I started this thread when I myself have a 3rd Gen Nova with an LS. Yes its different than most and built with a hodgepodge of used and junkyard parts but its starting to bore me.

Id like to go with a 70's vibe. 18" slots, super low, still keep the forged LS but top it with a Holley Hiram, two throttle bodies with twin turbos feeding them though carb hats mounted to the side. Id love to see more pt cars out there with just some bad ass attitude (love Mr Veangeance's street fighter type stuff). I also like the ratty street rod (or nice like Ridetechs) stuff getting a little handling love and getting out there and running.

[SRD art]

The funniest line in this thread underlined above..... Not to knock any chips off or anything.. but as a Camaro owner.. i have to tell you.. your 4door Nova was never cool it was a four door

:spank2: Just kidding :-)

Dat rayt dere is fighten words! Well, cool is in the eye of the beholder. Some folks think Camaros are cool. See what I mean? Buwhahahahah.

OK so the car itself maybe wasn't cool, but the fact that it was daily driven, ran 11's on it's own power back in 1992, and it would lift the front wheels 3" at the track was cool. I smoked a lot of other cars light to light on Friday nights because of the way it looked. I even got double bonus embarrassment points for the guys cruising with their girls. Lol!


Always loved those '74 5 mph bumpers.........NOT!!! ;-)

The way I see it it balances weight transfer better, or something like that, lol! 73 Novas had a larger bumper than 68-72 but it was mounted the same as the earlier style. 74 bumpers were bigger, had a full inner support and the 5mph shock mounts. Those things are obnoxious.

Funny how many people will overlook a 73/4 Nova for a 68-72. They're essentially the same car and weigh what, maybe 50# more? Plus you can get them in a hatchback so you could order that groovy tent option, lay the back seat down, and take your Nova camping or apparently to the swap meet too. Do that with a 68-72 Nova, or Camaro for that matter! Yeah, sleeping in the fetal position in the trunk sounds like loads of fun.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/NovaTent_zpse957d5f4-1.jpg

The main reason I like the 73/4 cars is because they aren't "cookie cutter" 68-72 Novas. What really erks me is taking a perfectly good 73/4 and committing blasphemy by putting a 68-72 front clip on it. Chevy didn't build them that way so why do people feel the need to do that? It's like they're embarrassed of what the Jones' might think of them if they don't have what everyone else has. That's like putting a 69 Camaro clip on a 67 because the 69 seems to be the most popular. I really don't get it.
:hammer:

Has anyone seen how popular that thread is about "Do you love fat bootie? Post up wide body cars..."??? My Novas have a fat bootie, doesn't that count? :)

[Steve Chryssos]

Nathan,
I've always liked your Nova and would like it even more with a 70's vibe. Especially if you radiused and flared the rear wheel arches instead of mini-tubbing.

[Bad94]

When something ain't broke why fix it?
But, all of us pukey Camaro owners, who keep spanking those COOL Nova owners are really sorry.

I will step up to the plate. My nova vs ur camaro. I will be a plenty of event this year.

[trans am kid 17]

One of my current projects is a 1962 Corvair rampside pickup truck! We plan on putting it on an A-body frame, lowering and upgrading suspension, tons of body mods and moving the engine to midengine place with a Hilborn injection system. If thats not unique i dont kno what is! Lol :)

[cornfedbill]

OK, finally I have a soap box to actually stand on. I'm officially changing my point of view to "anyone else sick of the pansies who dump a butt load of $ into a pro-touring car and only drive it on race day or take it to a car show?" :box2:

My wagon sees daily use, no matter the weather. It slides around a bit in the snow but hey, I just call that drift practice. It runs fine on 87 octane. Pretty sure by definition it's a full pro-touring car, only thing not done yet is I'm saving my pennies to put together a disc 9" rear, so for now it still sports the factory 7.5" with drum brakes. It's got some great suspension upgrades, a mild but respectable 406 small block, a roll cage, seats that keep you planted, 5 way harnesses and a bunch of gauges so people think it's a race car. I also towed my Nova with it 2000 miles across the country and I will be doing it again in a couple weeks. I creatively have less than $10K in the whole car too. That I say is a REAL pro-touring car. ;)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/Tow1-1.jpg

Of course if I put $150K- $250+ into my car I would probably never drive it on the street either, lol!

SHOW OFF!

So does that make your Nova a trailer queen?

I love real PT cars that are driven hard on the street! I admire real builders who engineer and construct their own cars.

I just need to get on the stick and get my cars on the road.

[Quickboat]

I will step up to the plate. My nova vs ur camaro. I will be a plenty of event this year.
Well if I finish my latest upgrades you may see me out there!

[andrewb70]

Well if I finish my latest upgrades you may see me out there!

This forum needs a little more trash talkin'....I vote for some friendly wagers as well!

Andrew

[LS1NOVA]

This forum needs a little more trash talkin'....I vote for some friendly wagers as well!

Andrew

Ok.

I challenge anyone to the LSFest Grand Champion competition. Drag, Autox, 0-60 stop, etc.

Im aware that there are cars on here that will straight mop me up. Im ok with that. I would like to meet some of you this year. If you see a dark green Nova trying to keep the tires hooked, that me! Introduce yourself.

[Typhoon1015]

Challenge accepted....... :)

[Rod]

This forum needs a little more trash talkin'....I vote for some friendly wagers as well!

Andrew

Agreed!! and on that note


I will step up to the plate. My nova vs ur camaro. I will be a plenty of event this year.

Accepted. ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah ha....

[shortrack]

It'd be nice if this could evolve into a design thread. If the current trend is cookie cutter, what inspires you? These days, I'm wholly infatuated with .....

These days Im wholly infatuated with the same stuff Ive been infatuated with for decades....lol

Theres a few people around here who get it. Id start my own website for stock car inspired street rides but I dont really have time.



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/11/ChevelleProjectV071Medium-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/normal_BobPressleyLMS-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/1972DodgeChargerNASCARRaceCarFrontAngleT-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/torino_zpsb5c22f5d-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/BigEatNashville_zps83bf51cb-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/StockCar70s_1620x4611_zpsc7387efd-1.jpg

[cornfedbill]

This forum needs a little more trash talkin'....I vote for some friendly wagers as well!

Andrew

So will we call it, "Is a redneck faster than a redneck"?

I am not entirely sure if it is a real competition if we pit first gen F-bodies against third gen X-bodies. Other than looking much better than first gen Camaros, aren't third gen Novas mechanically the same?

What I like about Novas is that the Camaro guys spend all their money and energy developing cool mods that I can steal or copy for pennies on the dollar. :thankyou:

[andrewb70]

So will we call it, "Is a redneck faster than a redneck"?

I am not entirely sure if it is a real competition if we pit first gen F-bodies against third gen X-bodies. Other than looking much better than first gen Camaros, aren't third gen Novas mechanically the same?

What I like about Novas is that the Camaro guys spend all their money and energy developing cool mods that I can steal or copy for pennies on the dollar. :thankyou:

Run whatcha brung....anything goes...place your bets...lol

Andrew

[qnitro]

Sweet thread..I must admit, just like the housing bubble maybe too the cookie cutter PT stuff might fade someday... But you will always have the hardcore guys taking cookie cutter stuff and making it better.. Look at Rod who has morphed his car over the years, or the Stielows of the world, who alot of us look up to.. He keeps making his car better and better.. I do think the cookie cutters will lose it luster, but I sure would hate to lose Detroit speed and the other cookie cutter enablers

[High Plains Mopars]

I am not entirely sure if it is a real competition if we pit first gen F-bodies against third gen X-bodies. Other than looking much better than first gen Camaros, aren't third gen Novas mechanically the same?



Actually, no, they are a bit different and in bone stock form, the Nova will be better for the simple fact that it does not go into positive camber when the suspension is compressed. Now a 2nd gen Camaro, that is where the 3rd gen Nova suspension originates from.

So a lot of the effort of 1st gen Camaro work goes in to making its suspension at least equal to a 2nd gen's capability.

[GNon18s]

This really is the nicest bunch of people on the internet. Even a thread that had people at each others throats on page 1 has morphed into a productive thread on page 6! With that said, i think its sad to see people spend 60-70-80k on a first gen (or second gen) Camaro. It shows they had the money to build almost whatever PT car they wanted, but didnt have the style or creative thought to build something truly original.

[SRD art]

Actually, no, they are a bit different and in bone stock form, the Nova will be better for the simple fact that it does not go into positive camber when the suspension is compressed. Now a 2nd gen Camaro, that is where the 3rd gen Nova suspension originates from.

So a lot of the effort of 1st gen Camaro work goes in to making its suspension at least equal to a 2nd gen's capability.

You may want to double check on that. My '73 Nova currently has a 68 Firebird subframe in it that I personally pulled from the wrecking yard. Unless I'm wrong, Novas had the same suspension from '68 to '74, all based on the rear steer 1st gen Camaro. 2nd Gen Camaros have wider frames, front steer, taller spindles and better geometry. 4th gen Novas got that style of suspension when the car got a complete facelift in '75, disc brakes also became standard with this change. Interesting factoids- you can bolt a 68-74 clip onto a 75-79 Nova, looks goofy but it'll line up. Doors are the same too, 'cept 73-79 dropped the 1/4 vent windows. Wanna smooth the look of your 68-72 Nova put 73+ doors on it. Blake at Speed Tech did that to Resurrexion and that car looks killer.

A couple resaons the 3rd gen Novas were "better" were because they were actually lighter than 1st gen Camaros, and well, they just plain look better. :) I think Novas get extra "sleeper" points over Camaros because they look like grandpa cars. Hard to hide behind a Camaro, even a COPO Camaro looks mean and fast. Only disappointing and slightly non aggressive thing about them is a 6 banger Camaro with little bitty whitewalls and full wheel hubcaps. That's lame. But a Nova can have a hot motor and get away with hubcaps and lined tires just fine.

Here's my favorite Nova, and probably the fastest, or one of the fastest production cars GM made back then. "465" hp 427, 4 spd and 4.11s in a 3200 (or less) lb. car. Redlines and hubcaps drive it home, nothing but lotsa bad bootie points there.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/03/68_copo2-1.jpg

[kencobra]

The cookie cutters are ok with me but just to clarify I am building a one off 1966 Mustang coupe. The thing I do not like on this forum that is a PT forum is the want to be PT cars. Come on people wheels don't make a PT car.

[Aficionado]

It'd be nice if this could evolve into a design thread. If the current trend is cookie cutter, what inspires you? These days, I'm wholly infatuated with .....

http://www.sportscardigest.com

and

http://www.prsguitars.com

Personally, I've been getting inspiration from the cafe racer motorcycle thing. Find a copy of cafe racer mag and flip through it, see if it doesn't spark something.

Www.caferacermag.com

[Quickboat]

Well, dispite popular belief, I love 2nd gen Nova's. I had a 72 SS with auto, bench seat and 8 inch baby moons. I really can't swallow the larger bumpered brothers, though I have seen some SWEET examples. I think the challenging one another is well intentioned and fully AMERICAN. I have very little experience in autoX and just a bit in drag racing. But I love cars and that is why we are all here.

[camaroinct]

Personally, I've been getting inspiration from the cafe racer motorcycle thing. Find a copy of cafe racer mag and flip through it, see if it doesn't spark something.

Www.caferacermag.com


I too am inspired by the cafe racers, having had them for many years, always liked the fairings and style. I also like the Daytona Prototype cars and of course the camaro. The short story is one day after Christmas a couple years back, I got a wacky idea of building my own body kit. Cut out some cardboard templates, spray painted them in black primer and taped them on the car and a dim light bulb appeared above my head, lol. Six months later, lots of hours, about $600 in fiberglass and accessories this is what i came up with. I am not a body guy. Just some guy in his home garage. If you hate my car, that's fine. There are hundreds of cars and very talented people on this website. I learn a lot every time i log on here. I just wanted to put this up to inspire someone else who may be looking for some ideas on their build.

73682

[High Plains Mopars]

You may want to double check on that. My '73 Nova currently has a 68 Firebird subframe in it that I personally pulled from the wrecking yard. Unless I'm wrong, Novas had the same suspension from '68 to '74, all based on the rear steer 1st gen Camaro. 2nd Gen Camaros have wider frames, front steer, taller spindles and better geometry. 4th gen Novas got that style of suspension when the car got a complete facelift in '75, disc brakes also became standard with this change.

I stand corrected. I guess early Novas geometry is as lousy as an early Camaros. All my Nova experience was with post '75 units, so I guess that would actually be the 4th generation when things were all corrected. Sorry, I thought all of the early shoe box style was all Gen 1, the next bunch that was less boxy was Gen 2, and the return to the square design in '75 was Gen 3. My mistake as I didn't know they split a generation evolution wise but retained the same look. IMO, those 4th gen cars are even bigger sleepers than the 3rd gen units. At least some 3rd Gens could be had with a big block and had a reputation for it. 4th Gens look like Grandpa cars no matter how you look at them.

[cornfedbill]

Sweet thread..I must admit, just like the housing bubble maybe too the cookie cutter PT stuff might fade someday... But you will always have the hardcore guys taking cookie cutter stuff and making it better.. Look at Rod who has morphed his car over the years, or the Stielows of the world, who alot of us look up to.. He keeps making his car better and better.. I do think the cookie cutters will lose it luster, but I sure would hate to lose Detroit speed and the other cookie cutter enablers

X2. They are very much an asset to the sport. I was sad to lose Detroit Speed to the south. They were a hop skip and a jump from my old house in Brighton, MI. Hopefully the good suppliers will adapt as the sport grows and changes.

[cornfedbill]

I too am inspired by the cafe racers, having had them for many years, always liked the fairings and style. I also like the Daytona Prototype cars and of course the camaro. The short story is one day after Christmas a couple years back, I got a wacky idea of building my own body kit. Cut out some cardboard templates, spray painted them in black primer and taped them on the car and a dim light bulb appeared above my head, lol. Six months later, lots of hours, about $600 in fiberglass and accessories this is what i came up with. I am not a body guy. Just some guy in his home garage. If you hate my car, that's fine. There are hundreds of cars and very talented people on this website. I learn a lot every time i log on here. I just wanted to put this up to inspire someone else who may be looking for some ideas on their build.

73682

I like your body work.

I need to dig out the photos of my high school ride. I build a similar air dam out of sheet metal. I lacked the talent to do the fenders.

I am surprised we don't see more air dams like yours. Mine pulled my car the the pavement like glue over 50 mph. It cornered like it was on rails even if it was a Vega. I loved to dust the little British cars with it.

Maybe as others see the performance benefits, they will join the few who have experienced what these kind of mods can do to handling.

[SRD art]

I stand corrected. I guess early Novas geometry is as lousy as an early Camaros. All my Nova experience was with post '75 units, so I guess that would actually be the 4th generation when things were all corrected. Sorry, I thought all of the early shoe box style was all Gen 1, the next bunch that was less boxy was Gen 2, and the return to the square design in '75 was Gen 3. My mistake as I didn't know they split a generation evolution wise but retained the same look. IMO, those 4th gen cars are even bigger sleepers than the 3rd gen units. At least some 3rd Gens could be had with a big block and had a reputation for it. 4th Gens look like Grandpa cars no matter how you look at them.

Wasn't trying to bust on ya, just clarifying. You're right, 62-65 is 1st gen, 66/7 is 2nd gen, 68-74 is 3rd gen, 75-80 is 4th gen, and if you count a Toyota Corolla with Chevy emblems in the 80's as a Nova than that would be 5th gen.

True true on the 4th gen. being the most passive looking. Funny thing is they come with the best suspension of all the Novas and I bet you could count how many p-t 4th gen Novas there are out there on one hand. That's sad, folks are missing out on a good starting platform. When I was in high school and my 73 was down awaiting a motor swap I bought a stock 305 powered 77 beater Nova. That thing handled much better than my 73, even with the cheap junk 195-75-14 whitewalls. I sold it after the 73 was running again and have been craving another for many years but too many projects already keeps me from looking seriously for one. I would pro-tour/ cruiser it for a daily driver in a heart beat. They're the cheapest models right now too.

Camaroinct- How could you hate that? I'm not much of a fan of extended flares and the whole IMSA look, but I totally respect your vision, ingenuity, and what you've created in your garage. Hot rodding at it's best right there in your driveway. Even if it is a Camaro... ;) Ha ha!

[SRD art]

This car is owned by a guy in a Nova club I used to be in. It was built about 12 or so years ago, I suppose when pro-touring was in it's infancy. Too bad more folks don't build these "disco" Novas, there's great non-cookie cutter potential in these cars.

My 14 year old son and I are building the 73 Nova for him, https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?94010-Project-TangerMean-73-Nova-RS-Nova-teenager-build&highlight=tangermean Maybe when my younger son who's 8 right now is 14 we'll start a disco Nova build for him...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/77richm1_zps80c19cc9-1.jpg

[SRD art]

SHOW OFF!

So does that make your Nova a trailer queen?

I love real PT cars that are driven hard on the street! I admire real builders who engineer and construct their own cars.

I just need to get on the stick and get my cars on the road.

No, it's a dolly queen, lol!

Yeah you do, enough talk, get that thing together already! ;)


I have very little experience in autoX and just a bit in drag racing. But I love cars and that is why we are all here.

I bet a lot of us have been converted from drag racing to corner burning. The more events you attend the more hooked on the cones you'll get. At least that's what's happened to me. Looking forward to seeing photos of your build and your progress towards converting to a pro-touring ride.

My 74 Nova is all straight line and has been collecting dust for about 6 or 7 years. Needs a new trans and a couple small things but I don't have much desire to go drag racing anymore so it's sat in the garage. Once I start work at Speed Tech in a couple weeks I have a strong feeling all the drag suspension will be coming out. It doesn't really make sense to have more than one pro-touring based project car but really pro-touring means a better ride, better handling, better braking, etc so why not, right?

[camaroinct]

I like your body work.

I need to dig out the photos of my high school ride. I build a similar air dam out of sheet metal. I lacked the talent to do the fenders.

I am surprised we don't see more air dams like yours. Mine pulled my car the the pavement like glue over 50 mph. It cornered like it was on rails even if it was a Vega. I loved to dust the little British cars with it.

Maybe as others see the performance benefits, they will join the few who have experienced what these kind of mods can do to handling.

Thanks Bill, I would really enjoy building a kit for a Vega, Good friend had one with a small block in the 80's what a killer car. Would like to see your Vega pics. Basically what i did was bend all the metal shapes for my straight pieces, that is your fiberglass mold for them, they then get bonded to the car. All the round shapes or curves is fiberglass over urethane foam that i shaped before i laid the fiberglass over it. That whale tail in the back is an old A & A fiberglass piece that i widened 13" on each side to match the rear flares.

[High Plains Mopars]

Wasn't trying to bust on ya, just clarifying. You're right, 62-65 is 1st gen, 66/7 is 2nd gen, 68-74 is 3rd gen, 75-80 is 4th gen, and if you count a Toyota Corolla with Chevy emblems in the 80's as a Nova than that would be 5th gen.



Ahhh, there's the problem. I thought the 62-67 was the 1st gen, so all my thought process about 3rd Gen being superior was based on a mistaken break over point.

I used to work as an accesories installer during the 80s when those toyota novas were new. We called them Toyolets, without the silent T.


You know what would be the schiznit on that flared Camaro, big IMSA style rear flairs.

[shortrack]

A current local race car, nice.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/80camaroIMSA-1.jpg

[SRD art]

That looks cool. Would be unique to see that "street legal" at cruise-ins and autocross events!



I used to work as an accesories installer during the 80s when those toyota novas were new. We called them Toyolets, without the silent T.

Lol! That's what they were too. Funny, a corolla could go 300,000 miles, but the Novas always got trashed out. Must've been the genre of people who bought the Novas compared to those who bought Toyotas?

[xs650shawn]

Interesting the opinions on this thread. I find that I do tire of looking at Camaro after Camaro, but that is just me. I have no problem with any car that has been modified. Build what you want. I always considered myself a bit of an oddball, which is why I bought a Buick. I know when it comes right down to it, it is just another A-body, but it looks different, and yes, I will be keeping it Buick powered. I will have to use a little inginuity to get the power out of it that I want, but it is what I want, definitely un-"cookie cutter".

[Thephranc]

I do tend to skip of the articles online and in mags that are just another LS powered 1st or 2nd gen F-body.

[gearheads78]

Well I have full zin and balance in my garage. 69 Camaro sitting next to a 54 Olds project. :woot:

[shmoov69]

Well I have full zin and balance in my garage. 69 Camaro sitting next to a 54 Olds project. :woot:

I got the 69 "dead cat" car, the 58 Nomad that the wife drives mostly and a 52 Buick lying in wait in the stable here! Crazy tho, the 58 gets about double the looks and comments as the 69! LOL!

[SRD art]

Funny, there was a cruise in down town Acworth, GA today. I saw several 1st gen Camaros and most of them had 15" rally wheels on 'em. Cookie cutter + boring. Lol! I'm not so sure pro-touring has hit the area yet.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

see what i mean?

so the canton/cartersville cruises are on now?

[vanzuuk1]

I like it all man.

[nekkidhillbilly]

never been a huge fan of 1st gens camaros. love 2nd gens. myself i like all old cars but i try to be way out of the box on my cars. i really like the disco cars but rather have something with something besides a chevy motor.

[ragz]

This car is owned by a guy in a Nova club I used to be in. It was built about 12 or so years ago, I suppose when pro-touring was in it's infancy. Too bad more folks don't build these "disco" Novas, there's great non-cookie cutter potential in these cars.

My 14 year old son and I are building the 73 Nova for him, https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?94010-Project-TangerMean-73-Nova-RS-Nova-teenager-build&highlight=tangermean Maybe when my younger son who's 8 right now is 14 we'll start a disco Nova build for him...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/03/77richm1_zps80c19cc9-1.jpg


If building a Nova is my option to non-cookie cutter then pass me the cookies, please!

[NOT A TA]

That looks cool. Would be unique to see that "street legal" at cruise-ins and autocross events!



Lol! That's what they were too. Funny, a corolla could go 300,000 miles, but the Novas always got trashed out. Must've been the genre of people who bought the Novas compared to those who bought Toyotas?

I bought one of the 5th gen Novas new for the wife of that era. An 88 Twin Cam model W 5 speed which came with the 4AG engine from the MR2. I still have it.

As far as the cookie cutter thing, although we see similar PT builds on these forums they're still kinda scarce in the hot rodding overall picture and I'd bet there's still far more Pro Street 1st gens than PT 1st gens.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/88NovaTwinCam017-1.jpg

[GrabberGT]

Sweet! Factory installed tow hooks! ^^^^^^^^

[cornfedbill]

So who will be the first to step way out of the box and build a PT 5th gen Nova-rolla?

[Steve Chryssos]

Boy, this is one circuitous thread.

[cornfedbill]

I know at least one guy who happens to like cookies...

73876

[CarlC]

Took the Camaro to the Toluca Lake Bob's Big Boy this past Friday night. You know, the place that magazines and newspapers show as the place where cars of all types, classifications, trends, etc. show up. Want to guess how many Pro-Touring cars were there?

We are a very specialized group. What happens in this narrowly focused forum does not reflect the general population of cars. Having a 100 or so PT cars show up for an event is peanuts compared to the 10,000's that show up for Power Tour, Goodguy's shows, Super Chevy shows, etc. Drag racing is still king in the USA as well.

The other thing to consider is that the PT world is typically not made up of the younger crowd that have a variety of different cars. There are boatloads of cars that attend shows catered to their wants (especially when there is live music and bikini contests :-) ). There are a ton of legacy builds out there that belong to the 40-50-somethings that have no intention of rebuilding/changing their long-owned ride. That leaves a more limited group that are willing to cut up a car and spend money on it without knowing if there is a decent long-term ROI.

In the end, most of us do it because we love it. If we worry about what others think then we'll never be happy.

[bret]

If it weren't for Camaros I couldn't afford to build Mustangs and 33 Fords :)

[SRD art]

Buwuahahaha!:lol:

[cornfedbill]

So the bottom line is that cookie cutter PT first gen Camaros with DSE subframes are actually a rarity in the "real" world.

In a small fishbowl, gold fish look common. Have you ever seen one in the wild?

I cannot remember seeing a true PT car at the local cruises here in Northern Colorado. There are a few that get close, but pro-street builds still out number PT builds by a large margin.

Without those cookie cutter cars, we become an even smaller group. What they do is provide a larger market for the suppliers we like so we can buy the parts we need. It seems like we all benefit from them to some degree.

I love to steal ideas from the first gen Camaro crowd for my third gen Nova. I just don't let them know.

[Scott Parkhurst]

I've never had an F-body, but I understand why others do.

I just like the oddball stuff. I often choose the harder way around, the longer road, the Asian chick in a room full of blondes.

I also enjoy everything and everyone I've met in the P-T niche. We're all offbeat right from the start, and a lot of you guys are really good at this stuff.

Speaking of offbeat projects, the next one I'm a part of will be mighty unique. It's not my car- it's my pal Scott's. He's been with me at a lot of events and is building a car of his own. It will make waves....I promise. Build thread coming soon!

[Rod]

this is truth!! I drive my camaro to alot of events, and when I drive 550 mile to an event in southern California, for 6 hours I never see another PT car till I'm at the event last month I drove to socal 3 different weekends in a row and not one other PT on the road, and Bill wild goldfish are scary and mean!


So the bottom line is that cookie cutter PT first gen Camaros with DSE subframes are actually a rarity in the "real" world.

In a small fishbowl, gold fish look common. Have you ever seen one in the wild?

I cannot remember seeing a true PT car at the local cruises here in Northern Colorado. There are a few that get close, but pro-street builds still out number PT builds by a large margin.

Without those cookie cutter cars, we become an even smaller group. What they do is provide a larger market for the suppliers we like so we can buy the parts we need. It seems like we all benefit from them to some degree.

I love to steal ideas from the first gen Camaro crowd for my third gen Nova. I just don't let them know.






ha ha ha ha, I like that


If it weren't for Camaros I couldn't afford to build Mustangs and 33 Fords :)

[Rod]

double post, sorry, wifi on the fritz when traveling

[72BBSwinger]

Im not against Camaroes, Novas,Chevelles,Chevy IIs, Firebirds etc. but I have to admit if you've seen one, you've seen 1,000 of them. I usually walk right past them at shows. I think its great that the Pro Touring movement has created a use for them haha! The bowties have always had huge aftermarket support for a reason. Im a non-conformist to my core, but if it hauls the mail then its cool in my book.

[Barrrf]

True, no matter where I drive to and get into a discussion about my car its always the same thing - "You gonna tub it out and put skinnies on front?" OR "Hey you got a big block with a double pumper?" OR "Thats too low, looks dumb that low".

Because the PT movement hasnt caught fire. Theres a LOT of them on THIS and the OTHER website but where are they located? California for the most part. Some Texas. And polka dotted around. Ive seen more classic reps and pro street cars then I care to admit to because thats whats been done for the last 35+ years. The PT movement is fresh. In the next 20 years though, it'll be a different story.

Show me a cookie cutter - cuz PT isnt cheap.

[cornfedbill]

Im not against Camaroes, Novas,Chevelles,Chevy IIs, Firebirds etc. but I have to admit if you've seen one, you've seen 1,000 of them.

You mean like cockroaches? But hey, even cockroaches can move fast.

I always tease my Ford buddies about the the old Summit Racing catalog which would always list the price for small block parts with a note "small block Ford $10 more".

In a sea of Chevy's, there are lots of cheap parts!

[SRD art]

Lol guys! This thread is great!

OK, so since we're seeing a lack of our type cars out there, what about pro-touring cars that aren't pro touring? Clear as mud?

What I mean to say is, for example at the cruise in there were several hot rods, mostly 30s and 40s stuff, with 17s and aftermarket brakes. What if under the skin they had some good suspension parts?

At the shop at Bulldawg there's a nice 65 Malibu getting built. By all intents and purposes it's a p-t machine with coil overs, tubular c-a's, aftermarket rear suspension, 4 wheel discs, etc. with the exception of he's running the factory steering box (IIRC) and he opted for rubber bushings because he's a little older and wants a smoother ride. He'll be riding on 18" wheels.

Now, this Malibu, like the hot rods at the cruise, will be street driven to events and on nice days. Will it ever see an autocross track, maybe, maybe not, but that's not what it's being built for. So, the question is, is it, and these other hot rods, pro-touring?

I've seen many 69 Camaros (for example) with big wheels and brakes and some bling under the hood at car shows but are they pro-touring?

Does anything with 17"+ wheels and some brake and or suspension upgrades count as pro-touring?

[riles]

I'm not, nor will I ever be, sick of any of the cars. I always had a Chevy when I was young (1st car was a BB 57 Bel Air, then a 70 1/2 Camaro split bumper) and hung out at a place called Duke's Drive-in with the Chevy guys (all built for straight line). Though for some reason, I always did love the Boss 302s in Trans Am series racing during that era.
Now, 30 + years later I'm building a 65 FB mustang and I enjoy going to the car shows and seeing the Camaros and Novas of the pro-touring world. I love the fact you can build a well rounded car that's as good on a road course as it is at straight line. This is a good time for ALL of us , as I remember not too long back that the car had to be built for one purpose.
Enjoy it while you can, I know I am.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Lol guys! This thread is great!

OK, so since we're seeing a lack of our type cars out there, what about pro-touring cars that aren't pro touring? Clear as mud?

What I mean to say is, for example at the cruise in there were several hot rods, mostly 30s and 40s stuff, with 17s and aftermarket brakes. What if under the skin they had some good suspension parts?

At the shop at Bulldawg there's a nice 65 Malibu getting built. By all intents and purposes it's a p-t machine with coil overs, tubular c-a's, aftermarket rear suspension, 4 wheel discs, etc. with the exception of he's running the factory steering box (IIRC) and he opted for rubber bushings because he's a little older and wants a smoother ride. He'll be riding on 18" wheels.

Now, this Malibu, like the hot rods at the cruise, will be street driven to events and on nice days. Will it ever see an autocross track, maybe, maybe not, but that's not what it's being built for. So, the question is, is it, and these other hot rods, pro-touring?

I've seen many 69 Camaros (for example) with big wheels and brakes and some bling under the hood at car shows but are they pro-touring?

Does anything with 17"+ wheels and some brake and or suspension upgrades count as pro-touring?



Oh my you are a sh#t disturber aren't you :poke:



In my opinion the answer is NO to be very clear. We have some local cars for sale and listed as PT cars. They have 17" wheels and are lowered 2" so they must be PT right? No handling upgrades, no brake improvements and to really help it handle it has a very mild 396 BBC in a '69 Camaro because we all know you need a little extra weight on the front wheels to help you turn. :hand:

I'm still building my car but my intentions are to make my car be able to do it all. By all I mean when I'm not racing this thing I'm planning on driving it on my holidays so no trailer for me and I'm planning on driving the living crap out of this thing. :drive1:

[icemanrd19]

cookie cut or not i have one of those catalog cars and its f*cking badass. Usually the people who get upset that someone else has something they dont have or dont want is a sign of jealousy :)

I do it for my son. Once he is old enough and my car gets finished we will go for a ride. When hes 14-15 years old we will build a car together
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/jayceandme-1.jpg

[EFI69Cam]

Maybe its time to rehash the build your car yourself vs pay a shop discussion again.

Hot rods are cool period, who gives a rats-a$$ what it is who built it, what "catagory" it is etc. If you are a car guy it means there is something in common and something to talk about.

[cornfedbill]

Does anything with 17"+ wheels and some brake and or suspension upgrades count as pro-touring?

17"+ wheels - Check

Suspension Mods - Check

Pro-touring?

No........

73887

'Nuf sed......:hand:

But I agree that the definition need not be overly strict.

Look at these cars that inspired me in 1981, way before the term pro-touring was ever coined. And way before DSE. I am guessing that Kyle and Stacey were in middle school when these bad boys were built.

Small blocks with 4-speeds were all they needed for motivation. And no tubs.

Nice rides! :twothumbs I still have this issue in the loft in my garage.

By the way, I actually had an air dam on my ride with rubber flashing on the bottom like the second gen in the photos that was less then 2" off the pavement. I made the air dam out of sheet metal I bent with a brake I fabricated from wood, and bought the flashing from a local conveyor supply company.

7388873889

[cornfedbill]

Maybe its time to rehash the build your car yourself vs pay a shop discussion again.

Hot rods are cool period, who gives a rats-a$$ what it is who built it, what "catagory" it is etc. If you are a car guy it means there is something in common and something to talk about.

I think there is room for both purchased and built cars. Both have existed since the first speed shop opened in the '50's. I just don't think we need to compare the two. We can all be inspired by professionally built cars. Even if we build them ourselves on a shoestring budget.

I think I may begin calling my ride amateur-touring. :idea:

[shortrack]

cookie cut or not i have one of those catalog cars and its f*cking badass. Usually the people who get upset that someone else has something they dont have or dont want is a sign of jealousy :)

I do it for my son. Once he is old enough and my car gets finished we will go for a ride. When hes 14-15 years old we will build a car together
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/jayceandme-1.jpg




Not saying it isnt going to happen but dont be too disappointed if your son grows up and doesnt share your passion for cars. Ive seen it happen with a few of my car guy friends. One in particular roadraces a Pro Truck (very similar to a Craftsman Truck) The thing is Badazz! His son doesnt come to races, is not the least bit interested. Again not saying it isnt going to happen but Ive seen my buddies go through some real heartfelt disappointment when they started to realize their sons weren't interested at all or were not very interested. be prepared. :)

[EFI69Cam]

I think there is room for both purchased and built cars. Both have existed since the first speed shop opened in the '50's. I just don't think we need to compare the two. We can all be inspired by professionally built cars. Even if we build them ourselves on a shoestring budget.

I think I may begin calling my ride amateur-touring. :idea:

The comment about restarting the ridicules discussion about purchased vs. built cars was meant to back up my point about hot rods in general. The guy who's got the money to hire the work done is no less a hot-rodder than the guy busting his knuckles in his driveway. Just like a 18 y/o kid's hopped Honda is no less a hot rod than my cookie cutter 69 Camaro. I'm going to respect the kid for being a hot-rodder even if I don't drive the same car as he does. We're all car guys- lets talk about that instead of bagging on car choice.

I agree about the pro built cars as inspiration. I often check out DSE's site for ideas and motivation to finally finish my car. It can be dangerous though, I ended up with a cookie cutter car that way. 69 Camaro with LS engine, T56 trans and DSE suspension. Why mess with a proven combo?

[SRD art]

Oh my you are a sh#t disturber aren't you :poke:



In my opinion the answer is NO to be very clear. We have some local cars for sale and listed as PT cars...

Lol! Yes I guess I am. :) Mostly I like a good debate. But from that, or maybe this thread as an example we tend to learn stuff as folks share their opinions. And I always think it's funny when the hot heads that are totally opinionated get all bent out of shape. That makes me laugh. ;) I haven't seen much of that on this forum tho...

I think if we read between the lines most all of us on this forum appreciate anything that fits within our genre or even all the others. It's all cars, and we're all motor heads.

The 65 Malibu I speak of has all Ridetech suspension, fatter sway bars, bigger brakes, the whole dealio. The only difference is he ordered rubber bushings and he doesn't plan on racing it. I'd say it's just as much a pro-touring car as any. But maybe not?...

There are lots of posers out there like mentioned above. I once saw a real nicely done "P-T" 69 Camaro at a local car show. The car was pretty sweet top to bottom, well designed and executed. Then I saw the plastic looking fakie brake rotor thingies that cover your brakes so it looks like you have big rotors. Only problem is there aren't any fakie calipers, just fakie rotor brake covers. At that point I walked away in disappointment.

So then, are the posers- cars that look pro-touring but don't have the all the "expected" equipment or are not raced called cookie cutter wanna be's?

I'm just simply wondering what qualifies a car to be pro-touring, does it need to be driven the way it looks, or have the right checklist of parts, or...?

My wagon is a daily driver but it has a stiff suspension and is loud inside. My intentions are to drive the dootie out of it on the track. But, I know I'd like to build a "pro-touring" car that handles well, brakes well, has a/c, and is comfortable to ride in for a daily driver, and probably not race it, just drive it. So is that a pro touring car?

73890

[cornfedbill]

Why mess with a proven combo?

'Cuz that's how DSE got started. Kyle and Stacey stepped out of the box and look what happened.

Proven technology is only good until it is superseded by the next technology.

Copying a proven combination is good. Surpassing it is better.

As an engineer, I have had no bigger thrill than to present a radical new technology to my customers and watch their eyes light up. It's a thrill one can get addicted to.

I wish I were half as good as the Tuckers and Mark Stielow. There are others that build at a very high level and are excellent engineers. I admire them. However, I will continue to walk my own path to see how my ideas pan out. Maybe not as good as their's, but at least I will have fun trying.

You are correct that there is not necessarily a difference in the passion of a hot rodder who builds his own ride and one who buys his. They all advance the sport. I look at all the cars equally for ideas. I just spend more time looking at the cars that are out of the box whether homemade or purchased.

My neighbor has a '26 Chevy that is in the shop being completely re-done professionally with an LS3 and six-speed auto, and new suspension. I am sure I will admire his ride. Mine will not look as good, but will be built in my garage. I suppose I will have a lot of fun building it.

[cornfedbill]

I always think it's funny when the hot heads that are totally opinionated get all bent out of shape.

Hey!!!??? :wasntme: ?

[cornfedbill]

My wagon is a daily driver but it has a stiff suspension and is loud inside. My intentions are to drive the dootie out of it on the track. But, I know I'd like to build a "pro-touring" car that handles well, brakes well, has a/c, and is comfortable to ride in for a daily driver, and probably not race it, just drive it. So is that a pro touring car?

Didn't you watch R U Faster than a Redneck? Wagons don't belong on tracks.

I think we all spend too much time labeling and categorizing. PT is what we make it. Some are tame. Some are wild. The best ones (in my opinion) look tame and are bad fast.

The most important thing is that it is fun. When it is no longer fun, we are doing it all wrong.

[fastbacked]

A nicely turned out early Camaro with LS power may be as ubiquitous and formulaic as a lanky blonde with a tight hiney; but, who can look away when either one of the aforesaid comes screaming by? Ford guys have a slight advantage due to the slightly more creative engine design ethos (think Boss 9 or Cammer; Indy motor in Pure Vision car, also popularity of the Flathead) and their subsequent reissuing (first two), hence some of the fresher perspectives.

[72BBSwinger]

The LS engine is probably as equally responsible for the GM overload in the Pro Touring community. Cant say anything that has'nt already about the popularity of that powerplant. GM hit a home run with that bad boy.

[MrQuick]

Maybe its time to rehash the build your car yourself vs pay a shop discussion again.

Hot rods are cool period, who gives a rats-a$$ what it is who built it, what "catagory" it is etc. If you are a car guy it means there is something in common and something to talk about.

Im all for the DIY-er. I have seen the good and the bad. Sorry to say it but some people just should not have access to tools or a welder.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Lol! Yes I guess I am. :) Mostly I like a good debate. But from that, or maybe this thread as an example we tend to learn stuff as folks share their opinions. And I always think it's funny when the hot heads that are totally opinionated get all bent out of shape. That makes me laugh. ;)

73890

I too like that and if I lived closer I'm sure we could grab a coffee and have a good laugh. It really doesn't matter to me what a person drives or where it came from but, I do prefer to see any of those cars described at the end of their definition with,

" and I drive it like I stole it!"

[cornfedbill]

The LS engine is probably as equally responsible for the GM overload in the Pro Touring community. Cant say anything that has'nt already about the popularity of that powerplant. GM hit a home run with that bad boy.

I have a soft spot for the LS motors. There is no other engine with the power per pound or power per external size that the LS motors have. I must admit, I would be running an LS7 if my wife would agree to the $14,000 expenditure for my toy. It is understandable why it has displaced the small block in popularity.

[ZuperZport]

I do it for my son. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/jayceandme-1.jpg

Well it took me to page number 9 of this "interesting" thread to find something I really like. The pic above is just great! And the Camaro is nice too.

Some good opinions shared here that support both directions.

Whether we use proven products from some of our well known vendors to build our hot rods or use our own ingenuity to build them ourselves I am just pleased that we ALL can make OUR cars the way WE want them.

U.S.A.!!!, U.S.A.!!!, U.S.A.!!!:usa:

[Scott Parkhurst]

Honestly, it's just cool to see any car project coming together nowadays. It seems there are less of them being built every year, in my opinion. The younger generations aren't as enamored with cool cars, and they aren't building them in the same numbers as previous generations did. Remember when Chevy vs. Ford was a big deal? Then it got to be USA vs. imports. Now it's just nice to see someone building their own car or dropping the dough to have one built to their liking. Any custom car is cool to see anymore, IMO.

[BonzoHansen]

The 65 Malibu I speak of has all Ridetech suspension, fatter sway bars, bigger brakes, the whole dealio. The only difference is he ordered rubber bushings and he doesn't plan on racing it. I'd say it's just as much a pro-touring car as any. But maybe not?......

I'm just simply wondering what qualifies a car to be pro-touring, does it need to be driven the way it looks, or have the right checklist of parts, or...?

That car sounds PT to me. A car does not need to be raced to be PT. Pro-Touring. Not Pro-racing. But we’ve already beaten this dead horse. I think there is a locked sticky on it.

[icemanrd19]

Not saying it isnt going to happen but dont be too disappointed if your son grows up and doesnt share your passion for cars. Ive seen it happen with a few of my car guy friends. One in particular roadraces a Pro Truck (very similar to a Craftsman Truck) The thing is Badazz! His son doesnt come to races, is not the least bit interested. Again not saying it isnt going to happen but Ive seen my buddies go through some real heartfelt disappointment when they started to realize their sons weren't interested at all or were not very interested. be prepared. :)
I will just beat him to death lol. Whatever my son has a passion for i will be interested. As long as he likes baseball and sports in general he will have a extra step on his friends. I was drafted by the blue jays and played for 4 years before my elbow surgery. Ill love my son no matter what he is into unless its cross dressing or something like that lol

[Velvetmerc]

Not me. I like seeing custom cars with good drivability. I think you got lost and accidently landed on this site. The cookie cutters are the stock cars you are searching for.

[Velvetmerc]

Not me. I like seeing custom cars with good drivability. I think you got lost and accidently landed on this site. The cookie cutters are the stock cars you are searching for

[gearheads78]

I changed my sig as a tribute to this thread. :enguard:

[cornfedbill]

I changed my sig as a tribute to this thread. :enguard:

:twothumbs:

[Rod]

Im all for the DIY-er. I have seen the good and the bad. Sorry to say it but some people just should not have access to tools or a welder.

hey! I represent that, ha ha ha ha ah paaha ha ahh

[cornfedbill]

Im all for the DIY-er. I have seen the good and the bad. Sorry to say it but some people just should not have access to tools or a welder.

I don't get your point... :hand:

73961

[tims64chevelle]

I grew up helping my dad build cars in his garage. I wanted to build a car of my own and knew the tech has changed. I went and found speed shop and found out that the tech has changed way more than I had ever imagined. There is no way I could get quickly up to date with all the tech that goes into building a quality safe pro touring car these days and to those who can I applaud you. I just don't have the time and tools. I'm glad there are great speed shops out there pushing the industry. There are great cars that are being built. Watching a 67 Camaro school a BMW on a road course is fantastic. That would not be possible ten years ago. The speed shops are making that possible for all of us car guys. Whether in the garage or high end shop build. Its available to all of us. I am applying the those pro touring components to a 64 Chevelle. It will be a high end muscle car that I can jump in and cruise anywhere I want to. I can do the autocross or cruise night.

build thread: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?97867-1964-Chevelle-at-the-Roadster-Shop

[SRD art]

Saw a nice 71 Chevelle driving in the rain today. I thought it was cool to see another old car being driven, even in crappy weather.

It had 15" billet wheels though...

[SRD art]

I changed my sig as a tribute to this thread. :enguard:

You're a good sport! Lol!

[69cortezsilver]

the 69 camaro far exceeds the look of any year nova ever made..JMO

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

^co signed..

[snappytravis]

Well it took me to page number 9 of this "interesting" thread to find something I really like. The pic above is just great! And the Camaro is nice too.

Some good opinions shared here that support both directions.

Whether we use proven products from some of our well known vendors to build our hot rods or use our own ingenuity to build them ourselves I am just pleased that we ALL can make OUR cars the way WE want them.

U.S.A.!!!, U.S.A.!!!, U.S.A.!!!:usa:

Look at the little mans face, You can tell he can't wait to turn 16 to drive **** out of his dad's car!

[Todd in Vancouver]

I don't get your point... :hand:

73961

Red Green, another good Canadian boy. Hmm, wonder if I could make some flares out of duct tape for the car?

74034

[cornfedbill]

the 69 camaro far exceeds the look of any year nova ever made..JMO

Oh! That one hurts...

I think the most important point is that we can all have what we want and not all fit the same mold. It is a good thing that so many guys like Camaros. That leaves more Novas for me!!!!

[GNon18s]

the 69 camaro far exceeds the look of any year nova ever made..JMOIn the OP's defense, he didnt say 69 Camaros arent good looking cars, he suggested too many Camaros are build too similar.

[69cortezsilver]

In the OP's defense, he didnt say 69 Camaros arent good looking cars, he suggested too many Camaros are build too similar.

cool story bro!

[DLinson]

69 Camaros started out as nice looking cars. If you can make a Nova look good then you've accomplished something.

I built a 62 Nova post which I purchased on price not looks. I just purchased a 68 Cougar which will be a father/son project with my 14 yr old son. I would love to build a 70-73 Camaro with all the DSE stuff but initial car cost is a big factor. I got the Cougar for $1500 with very little rust, no dents, and I know the history of the car for the last 30 yrs.

[cornfedbill]

69 Camaros started out as nice looking cars. If you can make a Nova look good then you've accomplished something.

74117

Any questions?

[Ron.in.SoCal]

^ Bill I think you've adopted this thread, lol

[audioman]

Then how about a C10 truck with an LS376 carb'ed with a few fancy upgrades. Started in Sept 2012 and should be complete in a couple of weeks. It will be my daily driver.
7411974120

[audioman]

Oh, and also been finishing up a 69 Chevelle Convertible. This summer's going to be cool for sure!!! :)

74121741227412374124

[jlcustomz]

My ride is mostly anything but cookie cutter. But would I insult any of the nicer high dollar pro -touring cars with loads of good production made hdwr? Hell no, I'd love to have a load of dse stuff underneath, some lighter wider wheels ,& a nicer crate drivetrain to replace the ls1/t56 I, got 10 plus years ago before everybody's brother had one. I'd just have to make some of my own billet accessories for it all, poor man's ringbrothers style.
I'm currently working on a so called low budget airride setup, fabricating my own stuff. Already blew some of that low budget deal with 5 autometer ultra lite airgauges. Cookies cost money. Cookies are also tasty.:cheers:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[andrewb70]

I just got back from the Memphis Super Chevy show. I was able to count LS swapped cars on one hand and there were approximately zero "cookie cutter" Camaros in attendance.

Andrew

[EFI69Cam]

I just got back from the Memphis Super Chevy show. I was able to count LS swapped cars on one hand and there were approximately zero "cookie cutter" Camaros in attendance.

Andrew

The last time I went to a car show I did not see a single efi converted classic car of any make, not even a TPI swap. While this site might make it look like everyone has a 67-69 Camaro with an LSX they are quite rare.
There were plenty of people who would discuss date coded spark plug wires.

[tmadden]

I'll second that!!! All Pro touring cars are cool!!! Give Me a catalog Camaro any day.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

I dont know that it would be correct to say that anyone should be sick of the Pro-Touring cookie cutter Camaro builds, because I dont think you should disrespect what actually seems to have gotten the ball rolling with the movement, and the inspiration and dedication that has been taken to other models of cars over the years. It is like anything else, it all has to start somewhere, and that tends to be a dedicated market at the beginning, up until people start applying the tested concept elsewhere. I guaruntee that you can probably trace all of the Pro-Touring movement back to a key few guys and a couple of cars, and the trend setters tend to be the covated model. If it wasnt for the Pro-Touring direction being already established and tested on the Camaro, there would be less people willing to make the same efforts for other models, because they may not have seen the big picture that the Camaro builds have established.. Hell, if it wasnt for the Camaro, the Resto-Mod build would be about as far as anyone would really go, because that was the standard during the Tuned Port transplant phase.. LOL

My dads business was restoring 1s Gen Camaro's for resale in the Mid 80's, so I grew up with what I would call Cookie Cutter Camaro's, because it was all about Colors and Numbers, and not necessarily with making them better, or a touch up to styling.. We are a far cry from Cookie Cutter Pro-Touring cars at this point, because most of them I have seen, are very unique in their own way, and that is because the owners/builders go out of their way to make subtle changes that make it all theirs.

If it wasnt for the me catching on to the Pro-Touring builds during research for my 68 Camaro build, along with finding the numerous other builds on this site and others, I would have never considered trying to apply what I have learned to the Classic Volvo Market. I would have never considered anything remotely close to what I am involved in now, and that is due to what I would label as Inspiration/Lessons from the Camaro guys that made things happen and available to the public, which then got people inspired for something different, and made them realize they could now do it themselves by using what those guys had created..

[zipsimons]

I dont know that it would be correct to say that anyone should be sick of the Pro-Touring cookie cutter Camaro builds, because I dont think you should disrespect what actually seems to have gotten the ball rolling with the movement, and the inspiration and dedication that has been taken to other models of cars over the years. It is like anything else, it all has to start somewhere, and that tends to be a dedicated market at the beginning, up until people start applying the tested concept elsewhere. I guaruntee that you can probably trace all of the Pro-Touring movement back to a key few guys and a couple of cars, and the trend setters tend to be the covated model. If it wasnt for the Pro-Touring direction being already established and tested on the Camaro, there would be less people willing to make the same efforts for other models, because they may not have seen the big picture that the Camaro builds have established.. Hell, if it wasnt for the Camaro, the Resto-Mod build would be about as far as anyone would really go, because that was the standard during the Tuned Port transplant phase.. LOL

My dads business was restoring 1s Gen Camaro's for resale in the Mid 80's, so I grew up with what I would call Cookie Cutter Camaro's, because it was all about Colors and Numbers, and not necessarily with making them better, or a touch up to styling.. We are a far cry from Cookie Cutter Pro-Touring cars at this point, because most of them I have seen, are very unique in their own way, and that is because the owners/builders go out of their way to make subtle changes that make it all theirs.

If it wasnt for the me catching on to the Pro-Touring builds during research for my 68 Camaro build, along with finding the numerous other builds on this site and others, I would have never considered trying to apply what I have learned to the Classic Volvo Market. I would have never considered anything remotely close to what I am involved in now, and that is due to what I would label as Inspiration/Lessons from the Camaro guys that made things happen and available to the public, which then got people inspired for something different, and made them realize they could now do it themselves by using what those guys had created..

Well put! any luck making a decision on your Satin finish product?

[High Plains Mopars]

I just got back from the Memphis Super Chevy show. I was able to count LS swapped cars on one hand and there were approximately zero "cookie cutter" Camaros in attendance.

Andrew

In the general population, I believe you will still find more drag racing influenced builds, possible even more pro-street looking cars before you find a preminance of pro-touring.

Somehow I bet that trend is the complete opposite at an event like RTTH. What is the car breakdown at one of those? 90% Camaro with 50-75% of those Camaros being LS/DSE cars?

Its all perspective, really.

[shizzy]

I'm tired of Cookie cutter cars in general, doesn't matter the style. I've always been the type of guy to go to a car show and troll the outside parking areas looking for the cars people drove but chose not to show. THAT is where I have found the coolest and most interesting vehicles. Date codes, chalk marks and all that don't interest me at all.

[shortrack]

In the general population, I believe you will still find more drag racing influenced builds, possible even more pro-street looking cars before you find a preminance of pro-touring.

Somehow I bet that trend is the complete opposite at an event like RTTH. What is the car breakdown at one of those? 90% Camaro with 50-75% of those Camaros being LS/DSE cars?

Its all perspective, really.

At my local car shows I find a huge Drag race influence, they are the most popular car but I also know many of these cars are decades old. There are VERY few "new" fat/skinny drag builds that I see. I would say in the "new build" category I see equal amounts of PT cars, Rat Rods, Chalk mark restos and traditional Hot Rods be it glass or metal with maybe an edge going to Rat Rods.

I know a guy who was going for the "Billet" look on his 48 Chev Pick up. The build was taking forever he had the MustangII front end on it, a late model LT1 for it, he was going to do ALL these custom body touches, reverse opening hood, suicide doors etc, he had his eye on these big billet hoops that he was saving up for blah, blah blah. He had years to go. He finally got sick of it, threw a carbed 350/350 in it, a rattle can paint job and some wide whites and he was driving it in 2 months!

[mikedc]

This might ruffle some feathers - but I really don't see the PT hobby, or the muscle car hobby in general, as especially creative these days. People complain that red '69 Camaros with Chevy V8s and 5-spoke rims are cookie-cutter, but maroon '69 Novas with Chevy V8s and 5-spoke rims are not? Come on.



Wanna be DIFFERENT?

Take a 1996 4dr Toyota Camry, fabricate a bunch of aluminum & 'glass body panels to lighten it up, and mount a 500ci Caddilac V8 behind the front seats for a mid-engine RWD platform. Sleeper, fast, streetable (if the cabin was adequately sealed from the engine), and probably not even a huge investment in the big picture.

This kind of stuff would be honest-to-God different. (It would also be very love-it-or-hate-it, as is true with many creative things.) This is not what we here at PT.com or almost anyone else in the old car hobby really wants to build.


The typical car built in the PT hobby is done with priorities more like this:

1st - American/RWD/V8
2nd - model year 1950-2000
3rd - conventionally muscular/sporty looking
4th - fast/powerful
5th - street comfy
6th - unique


I'm not hating on people for doing this. (Hell, I'm doing much the same thing myself.) But let's call this what it is - nearly all of us want to build nearly the same car. The bodystyle/year and even the engine & chassis mods are just slight variations in the flavors & seasonings in the big picture.


--

[cornfedbill]

This might ruffle some feathers - but I really don't see the PT hobby, or the muscle car hobby in general, as especially creative these days. People complain that red '69 Camaros with Chevy V8s and 5-spoke rims are cookie-cutter, but maroon '69 Novas with Chevy V8s and 5-spoke rims are not? Come on.



Wanna be DIFFERENT?

Take a 1996 4dr Toyota Camry, fabricate a bunch of aluminum & 'glass body panels to lighten it up, and mount a 500ci Caddilac V8 behind the front seats for a mid-engine RWD platform. Sleeper, fast, streetable (if the cabin was adequately sealed from the engine), and probably not even a huge investment in the big picture.

This kind of stuff would be honest-to-God different. (It would also be very love-it-or-hate-it, as is true with many creative things.) This is not what we here at PT.com or almost anyone else in the old car hobby really wants to build.


The typical car built in the PT hobby is done with priorities more like this:

1st - American/RWD/V8
2nd - model year 1950-2000
3rd - conventionally muscular/sporty looking
4th - fast/powerful
5th - street comfy
6th - unique


I'm not hating on people for doing this. (Hell, I'm doing much the same thing myself.) But let's call this what it is - nearly all of us want to build nearly the same car. The bodystyle/year and even the engine & chassis mods are just slight variations in the flavors & seasonings in the big picture.


--

So are you telling me that something like this road race prepared Prius would stand out more than a 3rd gen Nova? :worship:

75122

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

This might ruffle some feathers - but I really don't see the PT hobby, or the muscle car hobby in general, as especially creative these days. People complain that red '69 Camaros with Chevy V8s and 5-spoke rims are cookie-cutter, but maroon '69 Novas with Chevy V8s and 5-spoke rims are not? Come on.



Wanna be DIFFERENT?

Take a 1996 4dr Toyota Camry, fabricate a bunch of aluminum & 'glass body panels to lighten it up, and mount a 500ci Caddilac V8 behind the front seats for a mid-engine RWD platform. Sleeper, fast, streetable (if the cabin was adequately sealed from the engine), and probably not even a huge investment in the big picture.


--

Is this different? LOL

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/12/0353-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/00247-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/0238_zps2b7cb011-1.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Iamtheonlyreal1/media/Amazon/023-8_zps2b7cb011.jpg.html)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/12/67amazon_COMP_Pencil_sm-1.jpg

[GNon18s]

^That's what's up, love it! ..and mega different!

[cornfedbill]

Yup. You win! That's different - and cool! :twothumbs

[rockytopper]

You still have cookie cutter wheels and engine you fail LOL.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

You still have cookie cutter wheels and engine you fail LOL.

Ah... That is debatable, because most of the updated Classic Volvo's are running later model Volvo drivetrain, so I am outside the box there.. It would be kind of like running a 1st Gen Camaro with a Subaru motor, but I am gaining rather losing.. LOL

[cornfedbill]

You still have cookie cutter wheels and engine you fail LOL.

Ooh, that's harsh. At least the motor is dressed up like none else. I think this one gets originality points for using an old Volvo no mater what powers it.

[rockytopper]

The Volvo is NICE!!! .. REAL NICE..

[vintageracer]

cook·ie-cut·ter (kk-ctr)
adj.
Appearing to be mass-produced; identical in appearance: cookie-cutter tract housing in suburbia.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

How many ways can we build a PT 1969 Camaro? That's the question!

Invariably over time all the PT Camaro's can begin to look alike. That's true of anything that becomes popular.

Personally I like the "Dare To Be Different". The Volvo, The AMX build and several of the other "Dare To Be Different" builds currently underway and featured in build threads on this board are what NOW interest me. With the 69 Camaro there are only so many different suspensions you can bolt on the car. Which suspension you choose depends on your wallet. Yes the paint design can be different along with the interior, wheels and powerplant. Yet is STILL a 1969 Camaro. Certainly it is the owner's personal interpretation of a 1969 Camaro that meets their wants and needs but none the less a 69 Camaro.

Look at the fabrication skills Ron bring to his build on the AMX. Look at Robert's choice of what many would say WAS an ugly Volvo. FIRST CLASS KOOL NOW! Look at the 2 car garage build thread for the Buick Grand National G body here on the site. THESE are build threads I like to follow as the owner/builders each show their talents on different cars that make you WANT one of those "Dare To Be Different" cars. Yes their fabrication talents are well beyond most of us here on the site. That just motivates me to want learn more and try new things I have not done before. After almost 10 years on this site new and different continues to be what "I" like to see.

I know each and every 69 Camaro owner believes their car is different and unique. That's because it IS different! Their Camaro is a reflection of the owner's wants and desires. There just happens to be a LOT of owners with very similar "wants & desires" when it comes to 69 Camaro's.

Cookie Cutter????

You decide!

[Matt@BOS]

After deciding to build a car with custom everything, I sometimes wish I was building another "catalogue custom." I hate cookie cutter cars, in fact, if anyone wants my Camaro which is pretty much the same as the '69 DSE test car except with even more power, we can probably work out a deal where I let go of it for 40 cents on the dollar, so that I can then go out and build something equally fast and unique that will cost three times as much. :hand:

Matt

[GNon18s]

After deciding to build a car with custom everything, I sometimes wish I was building another "catalogue custom." I hate cookie cutter cars, in fact, if anyone wants my Camaro which is pretty much the same as the '69 DSE test car except with even more power, we can probably work out a deal where I let go of it for 40 cents on the dollar, so that I can then go out and build something equally fast and unique that will cost three times as much. :hand:

MattFirst you say you built a car with "custom everything", then you say it's "pretty much the same as the 69' DSE test car". Weird.

[srh3trinity]

First you say you built a car with "custom everything", then you say it's "pretty much the same as the 69' DSE test car". Weird.

He has two builds. The Mustang he is currently building is complete with wide body mods and a Coyote. It isn't cookie cutter by any stretch.

[Matt@BOS]

First you say you built a car with "custom everything", then you say it's "pretty much the same as the 69' DSE test car". Weird.

Stephen is right. I was beyond vague and ambiguous and what I typed sounded exactly the way you interpreted it. I was trying to talk about two different cars. Every panel on the Mustang, except for the roof and decklid, has been modified. I've had to build a custom hood to clear the engine, widened fenders, quarters and doors, custom inner and outer wheel tubs, transmission tunnel and crossmember, torque arm mounting brackets, seat pans/mounting brackets, etc. etc. All of this had to be done to get a similarly modern drivetrain with 6 speed and identically sized wheel and tire package to a first or second gen Camaro. The irony of the whole thing will be that it will always still be a Mustang, and there are millions of Mustangs. I was more or less trying to speak to the fact that non "cookie cutter" cars are much more difficult to build and require more knowledge, time and money to complete to the same standard as a similar Camaro, for example.

Matt

[Rod]

Stephen is right. I was beyond vague and ambiguous and what I typed sounded exactly the way you interpreted it. I was trying to talk about two different cars. Every panel on the Mustang, except for the roof and decklid, has been modified. I've had to build a custom hood to clear the engine, widened fenders, quarters and doors, custom inner and outer wheel tubs, transmission tunnel and crossmember, torque arm mounting brackets, seat pans/mounting brackets, etc. etc. All of this had to be done to get a similarly modern drivetrain with 6 speed and identically sized wheel and tire package to a first or second gen Camaro. The irony of the whole thing will be that it will always still be a Mustang, and there are millions of Mustangs. I was more or less trying to speak to the fact that non "cookie cutter" cars are much more difficult to build and require more knowledge, time and money to complete to the same standard as a similar Camaro, for example.

Matt

awww! hell Matty, Ill give ya .40 cents for that mustang :rolleyes:

[Matt@BOS]

awww! hell Matty, Ill give ya .40 cents for that mustang :rolleyes:

That one has a lot of time in it. I won't take anything less than .75 cents and I want it in cash. No checks.

[cornfedbill]

Stephen is right. I was beyond vague and ambiguous and what I typed sounded exactly the way you interpreted it. I was trying to talk about two different cars. Every panel on the Mustang, except for the roof and decklid, has been modified. I've had to build a custom hood to clear the engine, widened fenders, quarters and doors, custom inner and outer wheel tubs, transmission tunnel and crossmember, torque arm mounting brackets, seat pans/mounting brackets, etc. etc. All of this had to be done to get a similarly modern drivetrain with 6 speed and identically sized wheel and tire package to a first or second gen Camaro. The irony of the whole thing will be that it will always still be a Mustang, and there are millions of Mustangs. I was more or less trying to speak to the fact that non "cookie cutter" cars are much more difficult to build and require more knowledge, time and money to complete to the same standard as a similar Camaro, for example.

Matt

Ooh. That time and money thing. I am still searching FleaBay and Craigslist for that magic wand...

It all depends on what you want. If you are looking for speed with less time investment, a catalog car will work. Something different is exactly as you stated - more time, more money, more talent and more fabrication. Then the problem is getting it to handle as well as an engineered and tested catalog system.

Choices, choices, choices!

751577515775157

[GNon18s]

69MSA, Sounds like a cool project. Keep at it!

[trapin]

Took me awhile to get through this thread and I'm pleased that it stayed civil.

I have a 1968 Camaro with an LS engine in it. I'm excited to get it finished but at the same time I've realized now for at least the last few years that when it is finally done it'll be a pretty "routine" car that probably won't get much attention from the magazines or Pro-Touring community because (as the OP suggested) it'll be a cookie-cutter car. Even my engine (LS1) will be obsolete in this hobby. That's what happens when you let a project linger for too long.

I am actually thinking about selling it when I'm done and doing a 5th gen instead. Safer cars that are already set up (suspension-wise) for competition. Just a few tweaks and GO.

I don't take offense to this notion that my car is cookie-cutter at all.....because it is. And I'll go even further.

Restoring a 1st gen Camaro is perhaps the easiest and least challanging car restoration that anyone can take up. I mean for crying out loud the parts catalog at Classic Industries is the thickness of a local phone book, there's not a single part you can't replace. The lastest one I received shows that they are now reproducing the original sub-frames that go under these cars. I thought the Tic-Toc-Tach was the top of the mountain. Guess I was wrong. LOL!!!

[rockytopper]

i am actually thinking about selling it when i'm done and doing a 5th gen instead.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:barf:

[EFI69Cam]

Took me awhile to get through this thread and I'm pleased that it stayed civil.

I have a 1968 Camaro with an LS engine in it. I'm excited to get it finished but at the same time I've realized now for at least the last few years that when it is finally done it'll be a pretty "routine" car that probably won't get much attention from the magazines or Pro-Touring community because (as the OP suggested) it'll be a cookie-cutter car. Even my engine (LS1) will be obsolete in this hobby. That's what happens when you let a project linger for too long.

I am actually thinking about selling it when I'm done and doing a 5th gen instead. Safer cars that are already set up (suspension-wise) for competition. Just a few tweaks and GO.

I don't take offense to this notion that my car is cookie-cutter at all.....because it is. And I'll go even further.

Restoring a 1st gen Camaro is perhaps the easiest and least challanging car restoration that anyone can take up. I mean for crying out loud the parts catalog at Classic Industries is the thickness of a local phone book, there's not a single part you can't replace. The lastest one I received shows that they are now reproducing the original sub-frames that go under these cars. I thought the Tic-Toc-Tach was the top of the mountain. Guess I was wrong. LOL!!!

I'm not sure that the stuff from Classic that kind of resembles the original removes much of the challenge from the restoration.

[trapin]

I'm not sure that the stuff from Classic that kind of resembles the original removes much of the challenge from the restoration.
LOL!!! True.....very true.

[Tomswheels]

Stephen is right. I was beyond vague and ambiguous and what I typed sounded exactly the way you interpreted it. I was trying to talk about two different cars. Every panel on the Mustang, except for the roof and decklid, has been modified. I've had to build a custom hood to clear the engine, widened fenders, quarters and doors, custom inner and outer wheel tubs, transmission tunnel and crossmember, torque arm mounting brackets, seat pans/mounting brackets, etc. etc. All of this had to be done to get a similarly modern drivetrain with 6 speed and identically sized wheel and tire package to a first or second gen Camaro. The irony of the whole thing will be that it will always still be a Mustang, and there are millions of Mustangs. I was more or less trying to speak to the fact that non "cookie cutter" cars are much more difficult to build and require more knowledge, time and money to complete to the same standard as a similar Camaro, for example.
Matt

I love Matt's car, Camaros, Novas, Mustangs, Firebirds,etc. when they are done up pro-touring style...


Oh my you are a sh#t disturber aren't you :poke:



In my opinion the answer is NO to be very clear. We have some local cars for sale and listed as PT cars. They have 17" wheels and are lowered 2" so they must be PT right? No handling upgrades, no brake improvements and to really help it handle it has a very mild 396 BBC in a '69 Camaro because we all know you need a little extra weight on the front wheels to help you turn. :hand:

I'm still building my car but my intentions are to make my car be able to do it all. By all I mean when I'm not racing this thing I'm planning on driving it on my holidays so no trailer for me and I'm planning on driving the living crap out of this thing. :drive1:

But I disagree with this, my 69 Barracuda with nothing but 2inch lowering springs and a front Sway Bar and subframe connectors and 18" wheels got lucky and beat a bunch of "real" pro-touring cars at the last DelMar Goodguys, including Matt's and Mr. Rupps Camaro's, so is it NOT pro-touring? Poseur or Pro-tourer? Scoreboard:

SM Greg Thurmond 64 Chevy Corvette 54.086 PRO
SM Gregg Blunder 69 Chevy Camaro 54.385
SM Kyle Newman 55 Chevy Bel Air 54.486
SM Casey Cronin 68 Chevy Camaro 54.841
SM Robert Pierik 71 Chevy Camaro 55.345
SM Dan Weishaar 70 Dodge Challenger 55.37
SM Rodney Prouty 68 Chevy Camaro 55.414
SM Tom Kamman 69 Plymouth Barracuda 55.452
SM Matt Alcala 69 Chevy Camaro 55.61
SM Brianne Maier 66 Ford Mustang 55.65
SM Bob Gawlif 71 Chevy Camaro 56.134
SM Steve Rupp 68 Chevy Camaro 56.233
SM Jane Thurmond 64 Chevy Corvette 56.4
SM Tdd Vierra 56 Chevy Wagon 56.521
SM Chris Meyer 70 Chevy Camaro 57.574
SM Robbie Conklin 68 Chevy Chevelle 58
SM Gerald Lum 71 Chevy Camaro 58.091
SM **** Eytchison 65 Chevy Chevelle 58.35
SM Chad Humphreys 69 Ford Mach 1 58.516
SM Kyle Newman 57 Chevy 58.715
SM Dennis McNeil 71 Chevy Chevelle 59.118
SM Richard Trujillo 69 Ford Mustang 59.249
SM Aaron Raymond 69 Chevy Camaro 59.426
SM Mike Fitzsimmons 67 Pontiac Firebird 59.667
SM Nick Herrington 67 Ford Mustang 59.932
SM Mike Young 65 Ford Mustang 60.028
SM Evan Osborn 67 Chevy Camaro 60.281
SM Robb McIntosh 69 Chevy Camaro 60.342
SM Ralph Hollis 70 Pontiac GTO 61.093
SM Christian Dilauro 69 Chevy Camaro 61.134
SM Chris Humphreys 71 Chevy Camaro 61.203
SM John Barkley 72 Chevy Camaro 61.242
SM Tim Davis 66 Ford Mustang 61.524
SM Chuck Rust 65 Chevy Covair 61.783
SM George Reiss 64 Pontiac Lemans 64.047
SM Mike Colon 69 Chevy Camaro 64.13
SM Jerry McNulty 65 Ford Mustang 67.04

If the Barracuda is not a real pro-touring car, but it's faster than some that are, is it not still worthy of my time and a little Pro-touring.com web space?

[72BBSwinger]

Um yeah ^^^^! Torsion bars are cool!

[rfalker1]

Just a thought

I will have to agree and quite simple to restore into a pro-touring monster that follows a normal trend. However if we look at the bigger picture then I wouldn't consider them cookie cutter at all.

The reason I say this is because, a first gen camaro is not something you see everyday, especially not driving. We may look at this forum and say, ohh camaro, camaro, camaro but only because its a forum and this is were all the people with the same hobbie hang out. So commonly it would be seen more here than anywhere, but as you look into the real world, its not often you so a pro-touring (finished camaro) on the street driving around. Maybe you see more first gen camaro's at classic car shows, but then again u dont see them on the street that often.

Heck in st. louis I have only seen 2 driving around in my life, any other has been in a shop or with a billion dollar wax job sitting in a car show. So for me the term cookie cutter can't be used so simply.

I give an example, I am in europe 10 months out the year, it is normal for me to see bmw's M series, audi s series and more on a day to day basis. However when I am visiting a big city like istanbul or paris, it becomes more common (meaning day to day) to see lambo's, ferrari's and bentley's. But if i see a 2010 camaro I am like whipping my head around to see it.

The point is... location is the key, but we all need to remember whats more important is what is out in the streets with us. These cookie cutters are vast here, but extremely rare on the street. I would it even more rare to see a pro-touring version on the street in my neck of the woods and I am referring to my home in st. louis.

So what might be considered "cookie cutter" here will still looked on in amazement in the streets. SO build away my fellow first gen owners, and when we start to see a first gen pro touring with an ls3 on the street everyday don't get worried.. that your car is too common. Just move to europe an import your car!!!!!

[xxxturbo6]

I tend to stay different with my Buick T-Type and still sporting the Buick V6 when some told me it wouldn't work on Auto-X...

* DSE complete suspension
* BAER 13" disc brakes at all 4 corners
* CCW 18" wheels
And the list seems to never end!

75238

[cornfedbill]

But I disagree with this, my 69 Barracuda with nothing but 2inch lowering springs and a front Sway Bar and subframe connectors and 18" wheels got lucky and beat a bunch of "real" pro-touring cars at the last DelMar Goodguys, including Matt's and Mr. Rupps Camaro's, so is it NOT pro-touring? Poseur or Pro-tourer?

If the Barracuda is not a real pro-touring car, but it's faster than some that are, is it not still worthy of my time and a little Pro-touring.com web space?

I am going to guess that, although the Barracuda is a fast car, a good driver and the right setup make all the difference.

I think the proof is in the pudding. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Sounds pro-touring to me.

[High Plains Mopars]

The point is... location is the key, but we all need to remember whats more important is what is out in the streets with us. These cookie cutters are vast here, but extremely rare on the street. I would it even more rare to see a pro-touring version on the street in my neck of the woods and I am referring to my home in st. louis.

So what might be considered "cookie cutter" here will still looked on in amazement in the streets.

I agree and would add that perspective is also a factor. Any weekend show and shine will have predominately restorations and drag infleunced cars, where as RTTH or specific internet forums will show the manifestation of 1st gen Camaros.



But I disagree with this, my 69 Barracuda with nothing but 2inch lowering springs and a front Sway Bar and subframe connectors and 18" wheels got lucky and beat a bunch of "real" pro-touring cars at the last DelMar Goodguys, including Matt's and Mr. Rupps Camaro's, so is it NOT pro-touring? Poseur or Pro-tourer? If the Barracuda is not a real pro-touring car, but it's faster than some that are, is it not still worthy of my time and a little Pro-touring.com web space?


I would use this to point out that that a 1st gen Camaro is not the greatest choice when it comes to OEM suspension geometry and they DO require a considerable list of mods to improve their performance handling demenor. Other cars, like the Mopars of the era, have considerably better geometry and require far less in the way of mods to produce a comparably capable set up. To back up that assesment I'd say look at Mopar and Mustang performance the first couple of years of the Trans Am series. It wasn't until their second year in the series that the Camaros become highly competitive. Combine that with Mopar pulling the factory support after the first two years and it was destined to become the Camaro/Mustang show until 1970.

[72BBSwinger]

I tend to stay different with my Buick T-Type and still sporting the Buick V6 when some told me it wouldn't work on Auto-X...

* DSE complete suspension
* BAER 13" disc brakes at all 4 corners
* CCW 18" wheels
And the list seems to never end!

75238
I love these cars! Yes I have owned Mopars my whole life,but the Buick GN's have always made it hard to stay loyal lol!

[andrewb70]

I love these cars! Yes I have owned Mopars my whole life,but the Buick GN's have always made it hard to stay loyal lol!

That's not a GN. All GNs were black.

Andrew

[72BBSwinger]

T-types were GN's with optional paint were they not? GN's had what 20hp more?

[xxxturbo6]

Thanks for the compliments!!

The truth is the GN was just a "package" that included steel wheels, black paint, two tone interior, and GN badges....

The 1986-87 cars ALL had the same engine & trans and the t-types were actually faster because they came with aluminum wheels and some even came with aluminum bumper supports so they were lighter.

[csouth]

the 69 camaro far exceeds the look of any year nova ever made..JMO

I don't own either Nova or Camaro, but I'd have to say in a PT build the Nova can stand next to 69 Camaro in style and stance.... JMO

I think we see more PT Camaro's because there is a template out there that has been proven to work. The difficulty Camaro owners has is not suspension or perfomrance, but coming up with a paint or design that looks different from others.

[shortrack]

When I think about it I agree with the above stated.....PT 69 Camaros are only common around here. Maybe seen two in my whole life actually driving around. Seen lots of restored cars and drag cars however. Build away guys.

[Widetrax]

this is why I am customizing my 68 Firebird. moving the rear quarters out 3 inches on each side.

[nekkidhillbilly]

Just a thought

I will have to agree and quite simple to restore into a pro-touring monster that follows a normal trend. However if we look at the bigger picture then I wouldn't consider them cookie cutter at all.

The reason I say this is because, a first gen camaro is not something you see everyday, especially not driving. We may look at this forum and say, ohh camaro, camaro, camaro but only because its a forum and this is were all the people with the same hobbie hang out. So commonly it would be seen more here than anywhere, but as you look into the real world, its not often you so a pro-touring (finished camaro) on the street driving around. Maybe you see more first gen camaro's at classic car shows, but then again u dont see them on the street that often.

Heck in st. louis I have only seen 2 driving around in my life, any other has been in a shop or with a billion dollar wax job sitting in a car show. So for me the term cookie cutter can't be used so simply.

I give an example, I am in europe 10 months out the year, it is normal for me to see bmw's M series, audi s series and more on a day to day basis. However when I am visiting a big city like istanbul or paris, it becomes more common (meaning day to day) to see lambo's, ferrari's and bentley's. But if i see a 2010 camaro I am like whipping my head around to see it.

The point is... location is the key, but we all need to remember whats more important is what is out in the streets with us. These cookie cutters are vast here, but extremely rare on the street. I would it even more rare to see a pro-touring version on the street in my neck of the woods and I am referring to my home in st. louis.

So what might be considered "cookie cutter" here will still looked on in amazement in the streets. SO build away my fellow first gen owners, and when we start to see a first gen pro touring with an ls3 on the street everyday don't get worried.. that your car is too common. Just move to europe an import your car!!!!!

in the summer i see at least one first gen every day driving around. i still like them just dont want one.

[SRD art]

Oh, and also been finishing up a 69 Chevelle Convertible. This summer's going to be cool for sure!!! :)

74121741227412374124

The truck sounds cool, I like the old school air cleaner on the late motor. The Chevelle is sweet!!

[SRD art]

I just got back from the Memphis Super Chevy show. I was able to count LS swapped cars on one hand and there were approximately zero "cookie cutter" Camaros in attendance.

Andrew

For my tastes, that's actually disappointing. I'm assuming most of the cars there were something that you'd see 20 years ago too. I don't get why someone would still put drum brakes and 15" tires on a car anymore, unless it's a mostly resto build. Things are getting more and more affordable, why not get up to speed?

[rfalker1]

in the summer i see at least one first gen every day driving around. i still like them just dont want one.

Well u got me there!! Maybe I should be at home more!!

[Thephranc]

There were tonnes of F-bodies at Carlisle for sale today. You can tell they are the hot car by the stupid prices.

[SRD art]

Just a thought
The reason I say this is because, a first gen camaro is not something you see everyday, especially not driving. ... Maybe you see more first gen camaro's at classic car shows, but then again u dont see them on the street that often.



Why? Really this is almost like an oxymoron then. We build our cars to handle well, brake well, run smoothly and get decent mileage, all with the a/c on. So in other words us pro-touring guys essentially are the only car builders creating a new car "feeling" and performing car, only with classic looks. So what's the deal everyone? Why aren't you driving your cars everyday? You're not afraid to drive your Honda in the rain, doesn't the quality of paint and undercoating on your hot rod meet or exceed the durability of the Honda?

Not sure what fire ant just bit me but until now I don't think I really thought of it this way, why aren't we seeing more old cars on the road? I drive my "pro-touring" car every day and it's no big deal because I guess part me says I'd much rather drive an old car. I have a 2000 import car that gets great mileage and is fairly comfortable to drive but I'd rather drive my wagon, even with all its creeks and issues. It's just plain more fun to drive. MANY of you guys have cars that blow mine out of the water with comfortability and smooth cruising. Besides driving it daily and in any weather conditions, I just towed my 73 Nova for 2200 miles across the country with my pro-touring beater wagon for the second time in 6 months without any major issues. So why aren't you guys driving yours more???

Maybe people would be building more p-t machines if folks knew they could drive them daily. 4.10s w/out overdrive, obnoxiously huge flat tappet cams and high exhaust decibels, 275-60-15s and skinnies, poor handling and braking are a thing of the past. My 74 Nova is like this and I can't wait to change it to modern ideas. People need to see what we enjoy. Get the p-t cars out of the garage and drive it to work for a couple weeks. Would you really want to go back to your Hondas after that?

I'm a died in the wool motor head. I eat drink and sleep old cars to the point I'm a pretty boring individual unless you want to talk cars. I don't fit in with any social groups other than like what we have here. With that said nothing disappoints me more than seeing so many old cars that could be driven but camp out in garages. Well, seeing them rotting in fields and in people's back yards does, but that doesn't count. I can't stand knowing that my car, a 1979, is like the oldest car on the road everywhere I go. How lame is that? One day at the grocery store a kid called my car a funny looking sport utility. That's sad. It's a station wagon kid, what your mama didn't teach you what that is? The same kid probably would see a Camaro and think it was a funny looking Toyota. Boo on that!