Heads up: SPC Adjustable upper control arms. Snapped on street tires in the canyons.

[rogue]

This incident happened up near the rock store in Malibu.I was driving down the canyon when all of a sudden I felt a snap in the front end, and I could feel the wheel pull hard to the right. I could hear the tire squealing from the camber of the wheel. I was on very windy roads and was lucky enough to be able to steer it just off to the right into a pull off. 10 seconds earlier or later I would have ended up in the Canyon or into the side of the canyon.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
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I thought at first it may be a flat tire but quickly spotted the snapped plate on the SPC upper control arm. The car was exceptionally balanced and sorted before this incident and I would like to continue using SPC products but not at the cost of my life. I just wanted to warn others because I know many of us are running these control arms....

The car was exceptionally dialed in and sorted before this, and I'd like to continue using the adjustable uppers, but we will see how SPC handles the situation. I am running QA1 coilovers, hotchkiss sway bar, leafs, subframe connectors, guldstrand mod, wilwood W6 manual brakes.

Those with SPC arms, check them out before any spirited driving. Guldstrand told me that if you're not driving off the track or breaking something you're not going fast enough. I guess he was right but not at the cost of my life! I haven't had many close calls in this car but I have decided that its time to cage it and invest in some safety mods.

Be safe all!

Some artsy photos.
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[hectore3]

suscribed

[Flash68]

Dane, that ain't cool!

What safety mods planned?

[rogue]

Dane, that ain't cool!

What safety mods planned?

Definitely was not cool. It got my adrenaline up which was fun, natural painkiller. Definitely a close call though.

I need a Cage custom built behind the B-Pillar due to my height I sit just behind the B-Pillar with door bars. I need to find someone in the LA area who can hopefully build a cage with the interior in car because my interior is all original. Not sure if thats even possible.

I need a roll hoop, seatbelt crossbar, back into the trunk, and low door bars. I may even consider going all the way to the subframe just so I have some sort of rigidity. I've played with destiny too many times in this car and this was a wakeup call.

I'd also like to do a large fuel cell (6 mpg really sucks down that 16g stock tank quick!), yank the rear seat and carpet it like the old Flip down seat option.

Eventually maybe a fire system.

I've got enough health issues as is, I want to survive anything fate may throw at me.

[badazz81z28]

Whats ironic is that's exactly why I sold mine. I bought a new set, had just a feeling they were not up to street/performance use. I was suspecting the threaded rods would rip from the aluminum. Sorry to hear your mis-fortune. Time for some tubular DSE or Hotchkis?

[MrQuick]

You have to watch those fasteners. It comes with a 5/16" grade 5 bolt. I always open them up and add a 3/8" grade 8 fine threaded bolt and metal lock nut. Those are are track parts that get checked more so than a street car. Thank goodness you didn't go rubber up.

From the looks of the plate, the original nylock may have come loose (from stretch) and enlarged that hole. I have had a few come in with an egg shaped hole and a bent bolt. Is the bolt and broken section still on that link?

[79-TA]

Upper control arms deal with forces along two basic axes. The first and primary direction of force is simple compression/tension along the arm (and by resisting these forces it maintains the wheel's camber angle.) The SPC arm should be just fine for taking these loads that only amount to a couple of hundred pounds.

72056

The second, deals with the front to rear motion (which is sort of a resistance to caster change.) The SPC arms, along with many tubular control arms, have no extra support tube and are just open on the wide end. Combine this with the Camaro cross shaft that only traps one side of each of the arm mounting points and then you can see that any forward force must be resisted by the front mounting point and any rearward force must be resisted by the rear mounting point. Any force not dealt with at the mounting point results in an increased twisting force on the arm and it is up to the strength and stiffness of the arm itself to maintain its basic shape.

72057

To clarify, the only real resistance to movement along the cross shaft on the Camaro style cross shaft is the nut. On the opposite side of the same bushing, there is no real resistance. The torque from the misaligned forces is now just focused around on point instead of two.

If you're wondering about the 3rd dimension, the upper control arm does not resist motion in that case. That is handled by the lower control arm and spring; the upper control arm is just along for the ride in that direction.




There are two basic solutions to prevent this problem.

1. Run an upper control arm that has the extra support tube toward the wide end.

2. Trap each cross shaft pivot on both sides instead of just one.

Either of these will reduce the flexing on the arm a great deal. Reducing this stress and deformation also helps the arm contend with the load it takes in the other direction.

[Tom Welch]

Hi Rogue, I've followed your car here for a long time, really cool. What is your plan for upper arms now? I ask because I am using the same arm and I have wondered about this, my car isnt driveable yet so I have no personal experience. I am also interested in the lugnuts you have, did those come with the PSE wheels?

[Marcus SC&C]

Hi Rogue, bummer about your UCA. I see a number if issues that you may want to attend to before you repair and drive the car again. First off the breakage was caused by vertical binding, flexing the ball joint plate until it fatigued and snapped off. This is the mode of failure that produces those results in destructive testing. The arm was probably contacting the frame in droop long before it reached full travel. There is a small witness mark in photo 1. There are a couple causes for this.
*First off, the arms are installed UPSIDE DOWN*.
The vertically offset pivots that normally add a lot of droop clearance are now dramatically restricting it. Flip the cross shafts over to fix this. Second, we only sell these A arms for configurations using taller ball joints or tall spindles, this also adds more clearance in droop and it zeros out the mounting angle of the ball joints at ride height. It appears you are using stock height ball joints and spindles. There`s no geometry correction like that so it would be a big improvement to upgrade.
To add insult to injury you`re running the Guldstrand mod, which yields another huge reduction in droop travel! The car must have hardly any droop travel at all.
Rogue, I know you didn`t buy the arms from us because they`re in a configuration we don`t sell but please give me a call and I`ll be happy to talk you through the application and work with you and SPC to get the proper setup on your car. I promise you that when they`re configured and installed properly they are extremely durable and work fantastic.

To Mr Quick. You must be remembering some other brand of A arms. I agree 5/16" bolts would be much too weak BUT SPC A arms have and have always had 7/16" bolts, even larger than the 3/8" bolts you`ve had to upgrade other A arms to. They`re much stronger than they need to be for the application and we have never seen any issues with them at all even after tens of thousands of hard test,track and all weather street miles.

To 79-TA , nice diagrams but technically incorrect. Your assertions might be true of these were H arms but they`re not, they`re A arms. Triangles are non compressible, they do not wrack. So maintaining their shape they do spread thrust loads to both bushings, one on the thrust washer and nut and the other on the shoulder on the cross shaft. Thus there`s no need to extra support tubes. I once argued your point as well but a seasoned suspension engineer showed me the error of my ways. Note that C5 / C6 Corvettes, new Ferraris, Vipers and for that matter Formula 1 cars have no "extra support tubes" either.
72076

[tmoble]

hmpf, can't see any pics in Post #1.

[83hurstguy]

Upper control arms deal with forces along two basic axes. The first and primary direction of force is simple compression/tension along the arm (and by resisting these forces it maintains the wheel's camber angle.) The SPC arm should be just fine for taking these loads that only amount to a couple of hundred pounds.

72056

The second, deals with the front to rear motion (which is sort of a resistance to caster change.) The SPC arms, along with many tubular control arms, have no extra support tube and are just open on the wide end. Combine this with the Camaro cross shaft that only traps one side of each of the arm mounting points and then you can see that any forward force must be resisted by the front mounting point and any rearward force must be resisted by the rear mounting point. Any force not dealt with at the mounting point results in an increased twisting force on the arm and it is up to the strength and stiffness of the arm itself to maintain its basic shape.

72057

To clarify, the only real resistance to movement along the cross shaft on the Camaro style cross shaft is the nut. On the opposite side of the same bushing, there is no real resistance. The torque from the misaligned forces is now just focused around on point instead of two.

I don't agree with your second sketch and assumption. Force applied to the upper ball joint area along the vehicle longitudinal axis (X-direction from SAE coordinate system IIRC), will also create tension/compression forces in the upper A-arm. This does not solely create a sliding effect on the A-arm cross shaft as you have sketched. If you draw any freebody diagram, forces applied off a centroid will generate both shear and moment reactions. You have the shear component described, but neglect the moment that will want to make the A-arm rotate around its centroid. You'll have tension/compression in the A-arm members, which will result in forces being applied to the cross-shaft that are normal (perpendicular) to its centerline.

Rogue, sorry to hear about your problem. That really sucks. I'm running these on my car as well, so I am watching this with great interest.

[john31s]

subscribed

[xplane]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, you were very lucky not to be hurt or damage that beautiful car.

Are those PS Engineering wheels?

[Barrrf]

Hi Rogue,......

I learned more reading Marcus's post than I have using the search function and reading threads the entire time Ive been on this website.

Brohug - :nohomo:

[hectore3]

Superb tech. I have spoken with Marcus on the phone at length and he is quite knowledgeable in these unfortunate circumstances.

[Rod]

watching this

[novaderrik]

so these were installed wrong: do they come with instructions or have any kinds of markings on them to show how they are supposed to be installed?

[alocker]

If someone doesn't read the whole thread the title might be a little mis-leading.

[Bryce]

watching this

same here

[ho428]

Marcus, just curious, how do you mount a droop stop with those style a-arms? I wouldn't want to rely on the shocks end of stroke.
I run a bolt through upper a-arms that have the hole for the rubber stop so I can adjust it, for just this reason.

[protour_chevelle]

Are the ball joints not installed incorrectly aswell?

[Rhino]

Marcus, just curious, how do you mount a droop stop with those style a-arms? I wouldn't want to rely on the shocks end of stroke.
I run a bolt through upper a-arms that have the hole for the rubber stop so I can adjust it, for just this reason.


...First off the breakage was caused by vertical binding, flexing the ball joint plate until it fatigued and snapped off.

If you didn't want to rely on the shock, my expectation is that it would have to be done with something similar to a limiting strap connected to the LCA. To avoid a similar fatigue failure the bump stop on the UCA would have to absorb the force as close to the UBJ as possible. If it were done on the arms themselves it would hinder vertical movement in the same fashion and potentially lead to a similar failure...

[Marcus SC&C]

Novaderrik, yes they come with instructions. The second line says "Pivot Orientation: The cross shaft pivots should be installed so that the offset is up,moving the arm away from the vehicle frame. " Hey, we all make honest mistakes. It`s just that in this case the whole combination removed any margin for error.
Issues like this one are one reason that we A) try to only sell suspension parts as an integrated package and B) do phone orders only, with a consultation for every client. Otherwise it`s too easy to mix and match good parts but end up with a bad combination. After having our hot rod shop for almost 30 years we`ve seen it all. You can break anything and everything if it`s not installed right or it`s paired up with the wrong combination of parts.
The SPC arms are built in a modern format and are IMO best used on cars that have had the suspension appropriately updated. Modern cars,as a rule don`t have down travel bump stops (see the C6 Corvette pic) and haven`t for many years. They use the shocks for travel limiters in droop. Our classic muscle cars do the same in the rear with huge, heavy axles hanging on the shocks to no ill effect. Disconnect the shocks and the rear drops way down. Modern/performance handling shocks have much more rebound dampening than the old GM spiral shocks (which were basically oil filled slide whistles) so a secondary travel damper (bump stop) is no longer necessary. For specialized applications like hardcore drag racing where the front shocks have hardly any rebound dampening (90/10 shocks) we recomend travel limiting straps (as Rhino suggested) run to the lower A arms. They`re easy and bulletproof. Limiters or stops wouldn`t have fixed this issue though,just been a little bandaid. With almost no droop travel the suspension was only half functional at best. I think the OP will see a BIG improvement in handling and drivability once travel and clearance are restored.

[Rod]

Are the ball joints not installed incorrectly aswell?

youre right, looks like there mounted on the underside and thats not correct

[BonzoHansen]

I swear Mark told me that does not matter but I'll wait for him to add his $0.02

[shmoov69]

Quick hijack...
Marcus, I sent you an email a couple weeks ago with some Q's, did you get it?
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming! LoL!

[rogue]

Hi Rogue, bummer about your UCA. I see a number if issues that you may want to attend to before you repair and drive the car again. First off the breakage was caused by vertical binding, flexing the ball joint plate until it fatigued and snapped off. This is the mode of failure that produces those results in destructive testing. The arm was probably contacting the frame in droop long before it reached full travel. There is a small witness mark in photo 1. There are a couple causes for this.
*First off, the arms are installed UPSIDE DOWN*.
The vertically offset pivots that normally add a lot of droop clearance are now dramatically restricting it. Flip the cross shafts over to fix this. Second, we only sell these A arms for configurations using taller ball joints or tall spindles, this also adds more clearance in droop and it zeros out the mounting angle of the ball joints at ride height. It appears you are using stock height ball joints and spindles. There`s no geometry correction like that so it would be a big improvement to upgrade.
To add insult to injury you`re running the Guldstrand mod, which yields another huge reduction in droop travel! The car must have hardly any droop travel at all.
Rogue, I know you didn`t buy the arms from us because they`re in a configuration we don`t sell but please give me a call and I`ll be happy to talk you through the application and work with you and SPC to get the proper setup on your car. I promise you that when they`re configured and installed properly they are extremely durable and work fantastic.

To Mr Quick. You must be remembering some other brand of A arms. I agree 5/16" bolts would be much too weak BUT SPC A arms have and have always had 7/16" bolts, even larger than the 3/8" bolts you`ve had to upgrade other A arms to. They`re much stronger than they need to be for the application and we have never seen any issues with them at all even after tens of thousands of hard test,track and all weather street miles.

To 79-TA , nice diagrams but technically incorrect. Your assertions might be true of these were H arms but they`re not, they`re A arms. Triangles are non compressible, they do not wrack. So maintaining their shape they do spread thrust loads to both bushings, one on the thrust washer and nut and the other on the shoulder on the cross shaft. Thus there`s no need to extra support tubes. I once argued your point as well but a seasoned suspension engineer showed me the error of my ways. Note that C5 / C6 Corvettes, new Ferraris, Vipers and for that matter Formula 1 cars have no "extra support tubes" either.
72076

Mark you sure hit the nail on the head! Turns out you are correct. Guldstrand motorsports installed the adjustable SPC uppers upside down. Not to mention I've been running this configuration for 3-4 years now at numerous track days, on R-comps etc. I've had the car up to 176 mph. I'm not a believer in god but if there is one, he's been looking out for me...

SPC confirmed what you said to the letter. I'm going to get together with my Alignment guy Jim Monday and have all of us get together on the phone.

It seems like the configuration would work properly if they were installed RIGHT SIDE UP. with taller ball joints according to SPC. We will discuss it further and I may drop the SPC spindles completely if need be.


Guldstrand motorsports has nearly killed me twice with mechanical/part screwups. Its sad when you look up to your legends, and their shop falls short.

First they installed the wrong size brakes right before a big willow event. I was losing ALL pedal before turns and had to pump the brakes before each turn to get pedal back. Turns out the Caliper was totally flexing under normal pressure. They were not even safe for street use!


You can hear me chasing Jack Olsen in his 1973 911 here bitching about the brakes before each turn:
jwhGtWUqQBM

When I brought it back to Guldsrstrand, Wilwood confirmed they had chosen the wrong brakes for the application and Guldstrand chose to charge me $2800 for labor despite the entire ordeal being Wilwood and Guldstrand's problem. I didn't feel like arguing at the time due to my illness I just wanted it fixed so I paid up. Interesting enough, the guy that sold me this whole setup "Craig" was fired after they got the Wilwood situation sorted. Then he called me from his other shop trying to get me over there like a Vulture. I told him to pound sand in not such nice words...

Now this incident with the SPCs... I'm really not sure how to deal with Guldstrand Motorsports. I feel like informing them of the incidents and how my experience with them has been a nightmare and I feel **** should hear that himself that his staff is really dropping the ball. If one car is having these problems, what about all the others out there?

Thats twice now that they've put my car and my life on the line. I feel like **** should know what these monkeys at the shop are doing, and that I don't feel it was fair for me to have to pay for the whole brake fiasco either. Bottom line even if they insisted on fixing the problem and working with SPC for free I wouldn't let them touch the car.

I had Guldstrand sign my dash.... Now I feel like finding another OEM dash. I feel like he should know that. Its his name thats out there.

Any ideas on how to deal with it. I have the whole weekend to cool down.

Mark I'll get you on the phone next week and we'll discuss the setup. SPC recommended you highly BTW!

[rogue]

Novaderrik, yes they come with instructions. The second line says "Pivot Orientation: The cross shaft pivots should be installed so that the offset is up,moving the arm away from the vehicle frame. " Hey, we all make honest mistakes. It`s just that in this case the whole combination removed any margin for error.
Issues like this one are one reason that we A) try to only sell suspension parts as an integrated package and B) do phone orders only, with a consultation for every client. Otherwise it`s too easy to mix and match good parts but end up with a bad combination. After having our hot rod shop for almost 30 years we`ve seen it all. You can break anything and everything if it`s not installed right or it`s paired up with the wrong combination of parts.
The SPC arms are built in a modern format and are IMO best used on cars that have had the suspension appropriately updated. Modern cars,as a rule don`t have down travel bump stops (see the C6 Corvette pic) and haven`t for many years. They use the shocks for travel limiters in droop. Our classic muscle cars do the same in the rear with huge, heavy axles hanging on the shocks to no ill effect. Disconnect the shocks and the rear drops way down. Modern/performance handling shocks have much more rebound dampening than the old GM spiral shocks (which were basically oil filled slide whistles) so a secondary travel damper (bump stop) is no longer necessary. For specialized applications like hardcore drag racing where the front shocks have hardly any rebound dampening (90/10 shocks) we recomend travel limiting straps (as Rhino suggested) run to the lower A arms. They`re easy and bulletproof. Limiters or stops wouldn`t have fixed this issue though,just been a little bandaid. With almost no droop travel the suspension was only half functional at best. I think the OP will see a BIG improvement in handling and drivability once travel and clearance are restored.

I'll be honest, despite the ball joint issue and upside down control arms. Somehow the car was incredibly balanced. It managed to pull a 1:34 at big willow. I shudder to think what would have happened coming through turn 8-9 at 130mph and losing a wheel going straight into the straights bleachers.

I sure as hell wouldn't be typing right now.

Appreciate the input. Talk to you next week!

[rogue]

youre right, looks like there mounted on the underside and thats not correct

SPC didnt mention anything about the balljoints and I've seen many installations like that so I'm assuming id doesn't matter?

[rogue]

If someone doesn't read the whole thread the title might be a little mis-leading.

thanks fixing it.

[rogue]

Hi Rogue, I've followed your car here for a long time, really cool. What is your plan for upper arms now? I ask because I am using the same arm and I have wondered about this, my car isnt driveable yet so I have no personal experience. I am also interested in the lugnuts you have, did those come with the PSE wheels?

Thanks Tom. I'm going to get some opinions and speak to Marcus on the phone. SPC has sent out a replacement plate but it looks like I need a taller ball joints and possibly some different arms. I'd like to keep the stock subframe. Not only because I've got the guldstrand mod done to it, but the same reason I run a big block rather than an LSX. I'd rather know that I can keep up with supercars on a stock subframe than a $8000 subframe. I want the car as close to traditional a Trans Am Camaro as possible. I just didn't want to deal with a dog ass slow 302 both on the track and in the canyons. :)

The lugnuts are one off but Phil only sells them with wheels. Phil actually made those for me in his shop in 15 minutes. Amazing Guy and a true gentleman. He really cheered me up when I was at in a hard part of my life.

I heard a rumor that he was retiring (his words) and that he DID retire but I cannot confirm that. I should give him a call.

[SecondGenFan]

I learned more reading Marcus's post than I have using the search function and reading threads the entire time Ive been on this website.

Brohug - :nohomo:

Read his book. It's a great read.

[rogue]

so these were installed wrong: do they come with instructions or have any kinds of markings on them to show how they are supposed to be installed?

Full manual and great support line with no machine.

Guldstrand Motorsports straight screwed up

[rogue]

Read his book. It's a great read.

SPC said that he LITERALLY wrote a book about making muscle cars handle ;)

[rogue]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, you were very lucky not to be hurt or damage that beautiful car.

Are those PS Engineering wheels?

Thanks. Yes PSE wheels.

[MrQuick]

Mark you sure hit the nail on the head! Turns out you are correct. Guldstrand motorsports installed the adjustable SPC uppers upside down. Not to mention I've been running this configuration for 3-4 years now at numerous track days, on R-comps etc. I've had the car up to 176 mph. I'm not a believer in god but if there is one, he's been looking out for me...

SPC confirmed what you said to the letter. I'm going to get together with my Alignment guy Jim Monday and have all of us get together on the phone.

It seems like the configuration would work properly if they were installed RIGHT SIDE UP. with taller ball joints according to SPC. We will discuss it further and I may drop the SPC spindles completely if need be.


Guldstrand motorsports has nearly killed me twice with mechanical/part screwups. Its sad when you look up to your legends, and their shop falls short.

First they installed the wrong size brakes right before a big willow event. I was losing ALL pedal before turns and had to pump the brakes before each turn to get pedal back. Turns out the Caliper was totally flexing under normal pressure. They were not even safe for street use!


You can hear me chasing Jack Olsen in his 1973 911 here bitching about the brakes before each turn:
jwhGtWUqQBM

When I brought it back to Guldsrstrand, Wilwood confirmed they had chosen the wrong brakes for the application and Guldstrand chose to charge me $2800 for labor despite the entire ordeal being Wilwood and Guldstrand's problem. I didn't feel like arguing at the time due to my illness I just wanted it fixed so I paid up. Interesting enough, the guy that sold me this whole setup "Craig" was fired after they got the Wilwood situation sorted. Then he called me from his other shop trying to get me over there like a Vulture. I told him to pound sand in not such nice words...

Now this incident with the SPCs... I'm really not sure how to deal with Guldstrand Motorsports. I feel like informing them of the incidents and how my experience with them has been a nightmare and I feel **** should hear that himself that his staff is really dropping the ball. If one car is having these problems, what about all the others out there?

Thats twice now that they've put my car and my life on the line. I feel like **** should know what these monkeys at the shop are doing, and that I don't feel it was fair for me to have to pay for the whole brake fiasco either. Bottom line even if they insisted on fixing the problem and working with SPC for free I wouldn't let them touch the car.

I had Guldstrand sign my dash.... Now I feel like finding another OEM dash. I feel like he should know that. Its his name thats out there.

Any ideas on how to deal with it. I have the whole weekend to cool down.

Mark I'll get you on the phone next week and we'll discuss the setup. SPC recommended you highly BTW!

Yeah Mark, my brain is on auto pilot and my memory is in coach. Some reason I was thinking of the ball joint. Have no idea.

Talk with Dic, he's a professional and will deal with it. But I know what you mean. Its like hearing Elvis sing the National Anthem and getting the words wrong. Do you smile and clap or do you let him know by boo-ing. Tough call but it has to be done. You paid for it and let him have the opportunity to correct it.

Like you said, luckily you weren't doing 105 on the back strech when it happened. Gives me the willeys just thinking about it.

[XLexusTech]

Props to all parties for the informative an potentially life saving thread :-) Rogue glad it tuned out the way it did @ 176 you would have been dust.

[T-CHRGD]

I'll be honest, despite the ball joint issue and upside down control arms. Somehow the car was incredibly balanced. It managed to pull a 1:34 at big willow.

SPC and Marcus will get you back on the road (and track !). Just wait until you get everything straightened out. You will be amazed !!

[srh3trinity]

I have to say that this is the most civil discussion about a part failure that I have seen from all sides.

[Steve Chryssos]

Marcus,
You are a class act. A true asset to the hobby.

[rocketrod]

Marcus,
You are a class act. A true asset to the hobby.x2...

[MonzaRacer]

I have to say that this is the most civil discussion about a part failure that I have seen from all sides.

First of all the reason you have a normal discussion is that Rogue, not being a s__t slinger got on here to inform and also look for more information, be it batch of defective plates/improper installation/witches casting evil spells on his pride and joy.
Second of all he was hoping to INFORM those of us who have or WILL have SPC arms as to possible failures of said products.
Then after several posts Marcus, the hot rod handling guru of SC&C, one who even I called about mods to my Monza, and yes Marcus I WILL get those Monza arms out to you so we can build some Monza versions,,,trouble for me was financial funding.
I spend when I have it for the proper parts. This is also why as a true builder/fabricator/Master Auto Tech, I respect all who work on cars if they show class and competence.
That being said by NOT going off on a rant about SPC or Guldstrand rogue found out his car had ANOTHER piece of the setup done wrong by people AT Guldstrand.
As a person who has dealt with professionals many times I tend to stand back and let the pro sink or re-float their own boats,,,unless they NEED sunk.
Guldstrand has a reputation to stand on,,,,bad employees tarnish that.
Guldstrand EMPLOYEES made mistakes. Employees are people but rogue told you what he said to one who TRIED to be unscrupulous.
Now we have documentation of improper installations, he and others can look out for that and once on the web always on the web.
Now rogues can get his combo set back up to work properly and SAFELY. And make sure its a non issue.
Also this goes to the point of CHECK YOUR EQUIPMENT BEFORE GOING TOO BATTLE.
Remember this, if you were in war would you leave a gun all muddy and cruddy if you had time to clean and maintain it? NO!
So would you go run 100 laps at Road America, mixing it up hard then take the car home put it in garage and get it out a week later and try to do it again without checking parts, fluids, tires, brakes? NO!
Now will rogue check his suspension closer after beating on it? UNQUALIFIED ABSOLUTELY YES!
Why? Because he has seen what NOT doing it can lead too!
And thinking back that incorrectly installed parts ran so good, just think if they were installed CORRECTLY!
I certainly wish ALL break/failure posts were like this one.
I see lots of parts and so far in many if not most instances the failure of well made and much used parts have ended up being improper installs or improper use/abuse.
And the people pointing out wrong/improper uses of parts only bring more class to their place in our hobby/sport.
Lee

[Marcus SC&C]

Rogue, wow 3-4 years of being run in that format! I`m truly impressed that it stayed together that long, especially under those conditions. Luckily you`re okay, so is the car and the fix is actually an easy one. You`ll see a big improvement in performance as well. I look forward to speaking with you.
I`m bummed to hear about Guldstrand, I`ve always been a big fan of Mr. Corvette too. Hopefully he can straighten out his employee issues and get back to the high standard of care we`ve grown to expect from his shop.

[icemanrd19]

glad you are ok. Sorry about the shop screwing you over. Thats why i went with my builder. I felt like he could be a friend while doing business with him.

Both parties seem very professional and im sure it will all get worked out.

Do you have the mech abilities to install brakes and control arms yourself or was it just a time issue? I sure the help wouldnt pay a shop to install some control arms or pads and rotors

[Rod]

Rogue, Im very glad your OK and now you can have a little extra peice of mind with your build, It's fantastic that Marcus is giving such great help and advice, Failure is my biggest fear at the track and even for little events I have a crazy long check list of parts that gets touched and tightened, thanks very much for keeping us informed and for the warnings

[rustomatic]

Anything can break. While most of us would like the break to happen really obviously in the garage, while nobody's using anything or risking any skin, it's just not likely. So in this case, I'm glad to hear that you're out there beating on the car, as intended.

I'm no pro, but those arms just look scary to me--they look flimsy and pointlessly pieced together. For a component that supports so much of the weight of the front of your car (being loaded laterally or otherwise), far more metal and integrity should be present in a control arm. I'd use stock arms before I used those things, and just use peasant-level shims for your camber and caster adjustments.

For money, use tubes with welds (compare the structure of a Global West arm--they don't want you breaking those things); various arms could of course be assembled badly with cheap metal, but at least there'd be more of it...

This kind of breakage inspired my semi-idiotic avoidance of alloy wheels (yes, even in a 2012 car, but not on my motorcycle)...

[chevelletiger]

mark can correct me if im wrong but from what ive heard all the load is on the lower control arm and and not very much on the upper.phil

[chevelletiger]

double post

[ho428]

=rustomatic;975572]Anything can break. While most of us would like the break to happen really obviously in the garage, while nobody's using anything or risking any skin, it's just not likely.
You mean like this?
Just how in the heck does a leaf spring eye break in an undamaged box?
Glad it was in the box and not going into Turn 1 at 100 mph.

[rogue]

Rogue, wow 3-4 years of being run in that format! I`m truly impressed that it stayed together that long, especially under those conditions. Luckily you`re okay, so is the car and the fix is actually an easy one. You`ll see a big improvement in performance as well. I look forward to speaking with you.
I`m bummed to hear about Guldstrand, I`ve always been a big fan of Mr. Corvette too. Hopefully he can straighten out his employee issues and get back to the high standard of care we`ve grown to expect from his shop.

Yeah, I must have someone looking over me. I've beat that car so hard with that a-arm setup its ridiculous!

I promise to call ya this week and get some pivot joints and whatever else ordered and listen to the guru himself spread the gospel! I wish you were local so I could swing by!

[rogue]

First of all the reason you have a normal discussion is that Rogue, not being a s__t slinger got on here to inform and also look for more information, be it batch of defective plates/improper installation/witches casting evil spells on his pride and joy.
Second of all he was hoping to INFORM those of us who have or WILL have SPC arms as to possible failures of said products.
Then after several posts Marcus, the hot rod handling guru of SC&C, one who even I called about mods to my Monza, and yes Marcus I WILL get those Monza arms out to you so we can build some Monza versions,,,trouble for me was financial funding.
I spend when I have it for the proper parts. This is also why as a true builder/fabricator/Master Auto Tech, I respect all who work on cars if they show class and competence.
That being said by NOT going off on a rant about SPC or Guldstrand rogue found out his car had ANOTHER piece of the setup done wrong by people AT Guldstrand.
As a person who has dealt with professionals many times I tend to stand back and let the pro sink or re-float their own boats,,,unless they NEED sunk.
Guldstrand has a reputation to stand on,,,,bad employees tarnish that.
Guldstrand EMPLOYEES made mistakes. Employees are people but rogue told you what he said to one who TRIED to be unscrupulous.
Now we have documentation of improper installations, he and others can look out for that and once on the web always on the web.
Now rogues can get his combo set back up to work properly and SAFELY. And make sure its a non issue.
Also this goes to the point of CHECK YOUR EQUIPMENT BEFORE GOING TOO BATTLE.
Remember this, if you were in war would you leave a gun all muddy and cruddy if you had time to clean and maintain it? NO!
So would you go run 100 laps at Road America, mixing it up hard then take the car home put it in garage and get it out a week later and try to do it again without checking parts, fluids, tires, brakes? NO!
Now will rogue check his suspension closer after beating on it? UNQUALIFIED ABSOLUTELY YES!
Why? Because he has seen what NOT doing it can lead too!
And thinking back that incorrectly installed parts ran so good, just think if they were installed CORRECTLY!
I certainly wish ALL break/failure posts were like this one.
I see lots of parts and so far in many if not most instances the failure of well made and much used parts have ended up being improper installs or improper use/abuse.
And the people pointing out wrong/improper uses of parts only bring more class to their place in our hobby/sport.
Lee

Its a real shame too, I've tried to have some of the top people in their game do their magic on this car, the traditional way. Guldstrand, Lee manufacturering etc....

Guldstrand loves the car so much he had it put it on his website.

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?48073-Olympic-Gold-Canyon-Carver&p=595978#post595978

I don't even know if I should let him know about this incident, along with the big fat receipt for labor fixing THEIR mistake with the wilwoods... Not sure what good it would do. Maybe its better to let **** just live on in his labcoat every day.

I know the mechanic that did all the work as well as the salesman that was fired for the wilwood experience and then tried to cherrypick me as a customer from ANOTHER shop. Classless act.

perhaps its best left alone and not to focus on negative energy....

Chronic pain has taught me that healthy time wasted on negative energy is a waste of time. Life really is too short and I only get X amount of good days per week. This last week I was indoors all week but 1. Drives me nuts.

Funny thing about checking your equipment is that I had gone through the entire suspension and engine bay the day before because I hadn't flogged it in a while and I knew I'd be pacing an Audi R8. Well I paced the Audi R8 and had plenty of opportunities to pass, but I'm glad they were there to save my ass with no cell phone service up in encincal canyon. They were worried I slid off a cliff...

[Zanie]

Looking at the other thread you referenced, it appears they installed the right side correctly, but why use shims with an adjustable arm? 72329
I'm glad this didn't go "terribly" wrong. I dig your car and your current wheels look awesome.

[rchaskin]

Looking at the other thread you referenced, it appears they installed the right side correctly, but why use shims with an adjustable arm?
I'm glad this didn't go "terribly" wrong. I dig your car and your current wheels look awesome.

I would say the shims are just for clearance after the G-Mod.
The frame bends in towards the engine right where the bolt holes are.

I had to cut the bottom off my shims to get the a-arm to bolt flat.

[BonzoHansen]

Looking at the other thread you referenced, it appears they installed the right side correctly, but why use shims with an adjustable arm? . I cannot speak for the OP and his car and my 2nd gen is a totally different animal, but I had to shim my SPC arms so they sat correctly - I used gr8 washers. Mine are older and the design may be a bit different now but you can see the taper in the cross shaft does not properly clear the frame.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/IMG_0902-1.jpg

[rogue]

SPC just got the replacement parts out to me despite it being the installers fault thanks guys. Top notch!

Mark I still owe ya a call, but I'm selling a car today so got wrapped up (in a GOOD way)!

[BonzoHansen]

SPC just got the replacement parts out to me despite it being the installers fault thanks guys. Top notch!

Mark I still owe ya a call, but I'm selling a car today so got wrapped up (in a GOOD way)!

that is awesome!

[1360]

that is awesome!

agreed!

[ravege]

That link to 2009 shows passenger side correct, driver side as upside down passenger side. So Gulstrand has a loose stash of spc arms and the builder grabbed the wrong one :hmm: or they were shipped two passenger side arms :squint: and the builder wasn't sharp eyed enough to notice :dunno:

[Zanie]

That link to 2009 shows passenger side correct, driver side as upside down passenger side. So Gulstrand has a loose stash of spc arms and the builder grabbed the wrong one :hmm: or they were shipped two passenger side arms :squint: and the builder wasn't sharp eyed enough to notice :dunno:

Its not that cut & dry. Left & right are assembled from the same parts. Installer should have paid attention; no matter who assemble the arm.

[ravege]

Ah, good to know.

[David Pozzi]

I would let Guldstrand know what happened. You might save someone else's life! How else is he supposed to know his employee is making mistakes? He is legally liable for any mistakes, & the next one could be way more serious & he could be on the hook for it.
David

[BuzzKillian]

I cannot speak for the OP and his car and my 2nd gen is a totally different animal, but I had to shim my SPC arms so they sat correctly - I used gr8 washers. Mine are older and the design may be a bit different now but you can see the taper in the cross shaft does not properly clear the frame.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/IMG_0902-1.jpg

I know this picture looks like it is still in mockup stage, but it looks like that arm is upside down also. I'm going to go check mine RIGHT NOW.

[BonzoHansen]

I'm sure that arm came off a few times after that. but this is a different, older arm and it's symmetrical so I don't think it can be on backwards

[Rick Dorion]

I also had to shim exactly as you did.

[BuzzKillian]

I'm sure that arm came off a few times after that. but this is a different, older arm and it's symmetrical so I don't think it can be on backwards

The pivots on the end of the cross shaft is what I was refering to. When installed correctly, the ear coming off of the pivot is tangent to the radius.

This is part of the problem the OP had. The arms I have... have grease zerks, that can only be accessed from the top.

I only brought it up, because I wasn't sure I did it right... (Oh... not backwards, up side down)

[Bill Howell]

I'm not a believer in god but if there is one, he's been looking out for me...



May be time to rethink your thoughts on GOD! Just because you don't see him, know him or believe in him, he certainly was there, with his hands on you that day and did look out for you.
That is all.

[Zanie]

The pivots on the end of the cross shaft is what I was refering to. When installed correctly, the ear coming off of the pivot is tangent to the radius.

This is part of the problem the OP had. The arms I have... have grease zerks, that can only be accessed from the top.

I only brought it up, because I wasn't sure I did it right... (Oh... not backwards, up side down)
It all depends. Rogues car has the offset ends and that is the part that was installed upside down.
72571
It looks to me like the red arms have the symetrical ends.
72572

[BonzoHansen]

It all depends. Rogues car has the offset ends and that is the part that was installed upside down.
72571<--these were not available when I got mine
It looks to me like the red arms have the symetrical ends.
72572<---I have these

See above

[shmoov69]

:1st::1st:
May be time to rethink your thoughts on GOD! Just because you don't see him, know him or believe in him, he certainly was there, with his hands on you that day and did look out for you.
That is all.

[BuzzKillian]

See above

I guess I should have done some more research before posting... I don't have either of those. mine have the delrin busshings, Anyway I just didn't want anyone else to have that problem.

[rogue]

Got replacement parts from SPC thanks guys so much! Appreciate you coming to bat for us here. Guldstrand motorsports has been bought out by Works 2 the porsche tuner next door. Apparently Guldstrand still comes in to work every day but his side of the business is now defunct.

I told someone at the new company the entire story about my brake issues, the control arm etc. He was absolutely shocked and amazed this slipped by ****. He took down my name and number and I never heard from anyone. Looks like SPC and I are footing the bill on this one. Better than paying for my funeral! Got some tall upper joints from Marcus as well. I've been dragging my butt on getting the Camaro fixed because I've been enjoying my new daily driver, a *gasp* 2013 Mitsubishi Evolution X. I plan on making 400whp as silent as possible. AWD is in a class in and of itself. The car is an absolute marvel of modern engineering. (I haven't owned a new car since 2005, cause they generally suck ;))

Shes getting towed to my alignment/frame guy tomorrow.

[chuckd71]

Hi, I realize this thread is a year old but did you ever get the new stuff in and installed? I can't see the pics in your first post, did you have the older version of these arms? I ask because I just had something similar happen to me as I was cruising down the road. Fortunately, like you, I was in a place where I was able to get off the road and nobody got hurt. Just curious as to how it all worked out because it's a pretty ****ty situation overall. I'm accustomed to ruining things myself; flat out part failure is a different animal altogether.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1324170-l-q-9-ls1-71-chevelle-convertible-24.html#post18466299

[dirty rick]

*Running out to the garage to check my junk!*

[BMR Sales]

Dirty Rick checking his Junk sounds like a Bad Porn Flick on the Scy-Fi Channel!:spank2:

[rogue]

Hi, I realize this thread is a year old but did you ever get the new stuff in and installed? I can't see the pics in your first post, did you have the older version of these arms? I ask because I just had something similar happen to me as I was cruising down the road. Fortunately, like you, I was in a place where I was able to get off the road and nobody got hurt. Just curious as to how it all worked out because it's a pretty ****ty situation overall. I'm accustomed to ruining things myself; flat out part failure is a different animal altogether.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1324170-l-q-9-ls1-71-chevelle-convertible-24.html#post18466299

Mark Savitske got me all sorted out with some new tall upper joints and SPC took care of the parts that needed replacement. Car is back together and handles even better than ever!

No idea what version of the arms I have. I too was real REAL lucky.

Shame Guldstrands shops out of business as every single thing they did to my car except the guldstrand mod was half-assed.

The TKO600 they also installed is now acting up. You figure someone paying for brakes, trans, and suspension modification, they'd get one thing right!