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badazz81z28
02-26-2013, 06:24 PM
I DVR'd the two episode and watched them a couple of times each...Lets hear it...Are these imports really that fast? I have seen some of the muscles cars in live action and they are brutal machines. I don't see how a 500-600hp pro-touring car can't make it around the track quicker or in the straight away faster than a 255hp BMW or a 315hp WRX...I know the show can't blow the imports away or else there wouldn't be a show, but it's kind of disheartening to wonder.

Does that 1967 Camaro Supercharged LS3 really only make 500hp?

2yellow69
02-27-2013, 04:24 PM
They might be. My other toy is a completely stock (except it's cat deleted) 1987 Porsche 944 turbo. I've run a few C5 Vettes and whoever gets the jump wins. I can't pull away from them and they can't pull away from me. C6 Corvettes with a decent driver can get me pretty good though. Oh yeah, I won't mess with newer M5's anymore either!

Motorcitydak
02-27-2013, 04:47 PM
Lightness wins in the corners and braking. Plus a lot of muscle cars run monster rear tires and pretty small ones up front. They can take off like a stabbed rabbit but the fronts are what does the braking and turning, which is their downfall and where a decent import (or any car for that matter) shine. Road course races are won in the corners

badazz81z28
02-27-2013, 06:52 PM
Lightness wins in the corners and braking. Plus a lot of muscle cars run monster rear tires and pretty small ones up front. They can take off like a stabbed rabbit but the fronts are what does the braking and turning, which is their downfall and where a decent import (or any car for that matter) shine. Road course races are won in the corners

I agree, but those muscle cars on the show are high dollar autocross cars. They all have larger tires on the front than I can fit in the back of my car. They were built for the road course. Not your typical 500 horse 69 camaro.

Barrrf
02-28-2013, 05:07 AM
I often wondered this. And I think about it a lot now as I build and purchase parts for my car. Is it worth it to me? Or should I just go out and buy an import for a couple of pennies.

well, ok, a screamin 4 banger while fast, just doesnt sprout extra hairs on my chest like a throaty V8. So the choice was simple - but.........going fast. Thats my goal so...........

Its a circle for me.

newschool72
02-28-2013, 06:22 AM
Most of the loses by the red necks are due to talent issues,not the cars ability. Its kinda hard to beat a car that stays on the track while you do a golf course sand trap impersonation ,LOL. Another clue to watch is the average speeds . The fast cars are just going as fast as they need to to win. Finch averaged 89mph in the last race, while the boss stang averaged 94 in the first episode. Both cars were fast "enough" to win their race. I maybe wrong ,but I dont think Rattlers "boss" would have the power and handling it would take to run 5 mph faster around the course than Finches very well sorted out second gen.
As far as the beautiful orange first gen, I think the HP # has to be at the wheels on very mild boost. 7-8 lbs of boost would make 500+ at the wheels. Just as an example the LS3 in my 72 Camaro is good for 530HP at the flywheel with just an intake ,mild cam and good exhaust NA. That comes out to low 400s at the tire patch. The killer on the orange first gen is 3900lbs. How in the heck do you make a first gen that heavy?

GrabberGT
02-28-2013, 06:48 AM
I was just thinking about this, this morning. Good points about the avg speed but to me the races are won in the initial straightaway with sheer muscle power. Get out front and stay there. The import cant come around unless you make a mistake. I think the story would be different if the cars race side by side on identical race courses. I cant find a link for it but I've seen euro races in stadiums where they race mirror image mini road courses side by side. THAT would be cool.

JustJohn
02-28-2013, 07:04 AM
Yes, the little cars go too. As much as I like muscle cars, my daily driver is a Mini Cooper JCW with a bigger intercooler and ECU reflash. Peak torque is 300ft/lbs in a 2700lb car. It doesn't drag race but be very afraid on the highway.

Slick68
02-28-2013, 10:04 AM
In all honesty, it looked like Finch was sanbagging alot in the race against the WRX. Maybe, as stated, he was just going fast enough to win, and make it "look" competitive.

Of course, I have alot of respect for the AWD cars like the WRXs and EVOs. Those AWD systems are setup for all out grip in corners.

badazz81z28
02-28-2013, 12:29 PM
I can see built imports being very competitive...but there should not even be a comparison when racing a 225 horse stock BMW? The 600+ pro-touring car should have the power to zoom past, slow at the corners, and mash the gas and go...

Like mentioned, now I'm like WTF? Is all this money for 500hp LS and $10K suspensions a waste when a $4500 used BMr will kick your azz?

Rhino
02-28-2013, 01:01 PM
Like mentioned, now I'm like WTF? Is all this money for 500hp LS and $10K suspensions a waste when a $4500 used BMr will kick your azz?

It's not always about how fast you get there, you've got to look good too :)
A few years ago I had a job which required a good amount of regional travel. Due to that I picked up a VW GTI to DD. It handles like it's on rails and isn't embarrassing on the straights. I've been quite impressed with that little 1.8 Turbo.
There are some absolutely quick modern cars out there. Given 40+ years of technological advances that's to be expected. To me this is about taking my favorite car and making it the best it can be.

65-fastback
02-28-2013, 02:10 PM
Hi,

I have a 250+ hp Audi a3 sportback and it is fast and great in handling. Almost beat a S4 once, but he had better cornering. Mine slipped a bit.

BUT i also have a 65 fastback with 700+ hp. The cornering and manual shifting (tko 600) is not as good as the Audi, but driving the audi after the mustang makes the Audi look like a pedal car ;-)

Now the mustang has a cage, so it might outperform the Audi A3. Newer Lambo and Ferrari kind of cars Will always be better due to good research and Total balance.

A friend of mine has a Ferrari f355, he drove with me and is very afraid of the stang. It beats his Ferrari in every way. His car shifts slow and heavy, and twists it tail easy in the corner but hard to correct. But his cars feels safer to drive, my mustang instantly impress by hearing the engine.

It really depends on how the track is set up. Every car has its own preferences.

Compare an exotic import with a ford gt, should be plenty YouTube material ;-)

Todd in Vancouver
02-28-2013, 05:37 PM
Also, realize there is a whole tuner culture out there that is just as much into building their cars as we are into ours but I'm sure you already know this. I'm stating this because I use to work for a Japanese manufacturer and had the good luck to drive a factory one off performance car as my demo and all I can tell you is WOW it was incredible. Sometimes those plain looking imports are not so plain, so don't under estimate them. Hell, look what a stock Nissan GTR will do to most cars or what a tuner with a 20 year old Skyline will do. I got to drive an old Skyline and I was shocked as it accelerated well past 120 mph in the blink of an eye. Just YouTube Nissan Skyline and you'll see what I'm talking about.

camaroinct
02-28-2013, 07:41 PM
I frequent our local track LimeRock Park quite a bit on race days and track days. I have seen hundreds of different types of cars run there. It is surprising how close many lap times really are. I have also seen mighty 427 ac cobras get spanked by prepared Mazda Miata's. There is the reason for class rules and modifications. I happen to like 2nd gen camaro's and dont like to see anyone passing one, lol. But someone is always faster or better prepared. That show R U faster Than a Redneck, I think it's great, I really enjoy it.

camaro427-69
02-28-2013, 10:22 PM
wouldnīt it be bad if there was no improvement over the last 40years in the car industry? i was doing some street races on mountain roads with my camaro last year competing against a tuned golf GTI with around 350HP and even a guy on a supermoto bike. i spanked the GTI and even the guy on the supermoto had work to do to Keep up but why...there were Long straightways where my 540 just smoked them. but on the other side i have a realy curvy mountain road where i drive all the time and i compared average Speeds and top Speeds to my bmw 4wheel drive touring (Station wagon, tuned to 300diesel HP, M-Performance Suspension on 19" Performance tires) and iīm always 10-15mph slower than with my beemer just because i can brake later and the Thing goes around corners like on rails. but the Thing is that this is on dry roads, when things go wet i pee myself in my camaro driving like a grandma because it getīs so unpredictable and in the beemer i just hit the pedal and same on snow in wintertime. i had the same thoughts like badazz81z28 before when i was driving to Germany with my Buddy and his 71 ranchero before when we got smoked by a grandpa in his 2.7liter Mercedes diesel going 70mph and accelerating so what the f..... is this 500HP rated Ford crate engine doing in the compartement????? ok thatīs all not on a track but it getīs down to the same Point never be dissapointed by Tuning a 40year old car and then just be able to Keep up with a new one but i think thatīs just what i is.

Finch
03-01-2013, 07:12 AM
Question is which one makes better TV, Just fast enough or never see the two cars in the same frame from the drop of the green?

Maybe by the end of the series that question will be answered,,,until then I am not telling :)

newschool72
03-01-2013, 11:10 AM
So my question to you is, how close is the new Boss to the Finch Monster?

cornfedbill
03-01-2013, 11:48 AM
All I know is that my 165 HP 1988 BMW 325is on 185's held the road nearly as well as the C5 I used to drive. Given a little more tire, it would be a real match for the C5 on a tight course or twisty road.

Don't underestimate the benefit of a lightweight well balanced car.

However, big motored cars are much more enjoyable to drive. :)

badazz81z28
03-02-2013, 09:16 AM
Question is which one makes better TV, Just fast enough or never see the two cars in the same frame from the drop of the green?

Maybe by the end of the series that question will be answered,,,until then I am not telling :)

I will be anxiously waiting. ;)

Todd in Vancouver
03-02-2013, 10:09 AM
Just saw a picture of a really hot looking Nissan GTR of the FB page. Is that car really going to go against a PT car? because that would be a killer race.

YancyJohns
03-04-2013, 05:44 PM
A lot would depend on if you were on the outside or inside down the straight and where they dropped the flag. If you had the inside lane and they waited to drop the flag late, the inside lane got through the first turn always. Then it was catch up.

Todd in Vancouver
03-04-2013, 06:35 PM
The slap wasn't good it was GREAT! LOVE the schooling he got. That GTR was killer and although I love my Muscle cars you have to give props to that GTR, they are very fast. Show is very entertaining and I really had a good chuckle this week.

damannhw
03-05-2013, 04:31 AM
The slap wasn't good it was GREAT! LOVE the schooling he got.

+1...Priceless, made me LOL ! :spank2:

Some of these imports are fast on the tight curvy front course they're using..... but, name a single import that ever made the hair on the back of you neck stand up when it fired up with a nasty cackle ? They have no soul, no style, and "they ain't from around here" :usa:

newschool72
03-05-2013, 05:39 AM
That GTR is a monster!! Low 11 second dragcar that will go a G+ in a right or left turn. I watched an episode of Top Gear UK where Jeremy Clarkston tested the GTR,bone stock, and it threw his neck out. The Ambulance had to drive out on the test track and extract him from the car. And remember, Jeremy drives EVERYTHING exotic, so Gs are nothing new to him. On another episode he drove another one and his biggest comment while driving on the street was that it was no fun because the car was in total control . It makes you look good because it is so refined. It was also the only ricer that beat the muscle to the first turn.
There are just some places you just dont go and the GTR is one of those places. Oh and I loved the slap! If a man is on your door going into the turn, you have to give him the line. Or I guess you can get your door caved in and get B!%^@ slapped on national TV.LOL

xxxturbo6
03-05-2013, 07:26 AM
Watched the show again and when I seen the GTR I knew it was going to be a close race at the end but that was more like a "Gimmie".... I have a Turbo 6cy Buick G-Body I would like to see go against some of these Imports! 6cyl American made VS 6cyl Import ?

deviousz28
03-05-2013, 08:16 PM
Watched the show again and when I seen the GTR I knew it was going to be a close race at the end but that was more like a "Gimmie".... I have a Turbo 6cy Buick G-Body I would like to see go against some of these Imports! 6cyl American made VS 6cyl Import ?

I'm pretty sure they now have a no GT-R policy.

rustomatic
03-05-2013, 09:12 PM
It takes a lot of work to make a "muscle car" handle as well as a stock Honda Civic. Trying for the likes of a Mitsubishi Evo is quite a job--the good thing is that if you do it right (via experience and research), it won't cost a lot of money (comparatively speaking, of course). That said, rear wheel drive and a V8 will never be as easy to drive as an Evo, which is a good thing...

Todd in Vancouver
03-05-2013, 09:34 PM
I'm pretty sure they now have a no GT-R policy.

Thanks for the laugh I had from your signature, that was very well done. In full disclosure, I own a muscle car and always have but, I use to work for Nissan corporate and that GTR is built to be a killer and we have the tuned down version here. We need to keep it in perspective and that car is a purpose built street legal race car. With that being said put me in a GTR, a Ferrari, or any other super car and I'm sure any of the quality drivers in this show would kick my a$$ with anything they have there or anything from the local Rent-a-car pool. It's a great show and I enjoy seeing all my favourite cars, but sometimes there will be a kick a$$ import with a good driver and that person will be driving home with $10K in his pocket. Just the way it goes at the track or on the street.

Slick68
03-06-2013, 04:42 AM
I loved the slap, Yancy! That was just awesome, especially for the reason. There's a difference in closing a gap, and just running into someone to own a curve.

Those GT-R's are pretty bad in stock form. Start adding turbos and more suspension mods, and you really have something to be reckoned with as we saw in episode 3. The Camaro still looked and sounded better though. Also, what would get torn off the GT-R going though "Johnson's Landing"? HAHAHA

YancyJohns
03-08-2013, 03:26 AM
Oh and I loved the slap! If a man is on your door going into the turn, you have to give him the line. Or I guess you can get your door caved in and get B!%^@ slapped on national TV.LOL What TV doesn't show you, this was a 180 deg right hand turn, I had beat him threw the first corner, slow in-fast out, when my right tire was on curb-strip/apex coming out when he was hot coming in and over into me. What I probably did wrong, was look over when he was coming in on me(knowing it was too late, he was going to hit me), which the car goes where the neck goes. But you have to say, it does make for good TV...lol

Ron S
03-08-2013, 04:57 AM
Hell, I think the guy made out pretty well. He needed multiple thumps to the face. I just can't beleive the guy had such a suprised look on his face, I would have been expecting some fist play after doing something so stupid. Yancy, you da man.LOL

XLexusTech
03-08-2013, 05:37 AM
Yes they are... that WRX... would have wiped the floor with 90% of those cars given equal footing... ( i don't believe 700 HP R&D car with a pro driver is a fair comparison)

How about this put Ken Block is a WRX with stock suspension and a little clutch and turbo tweaking... He would smoke 100% of the PT cars including any pro Driver...

Dont get me wrong, these are apples and oranges.. what we do with these Antiques is really amazing... it just doesn't measure up to what Big auto has done in the same 40+ years... we can get close... but it just doesn't compare... IMHO

badazz81z28
03-08-2013, 12:38 PM
"It takes a lot of work to make a "muscle car" handle as well as a stock Honda Civic"


WTF? What Civic have you been driving? I have driven a civic...BS.

Krazed
03-09-2013, 08:47 PM
Those GT-R's are pretty bad in stock form. Start adding turbos and more suspension mods, and you really have something to be reckoned with as we saw in episode 3.

Just so you know, the GT-R is Twin Turbo from the Factory. He didn't do much to the engine. Probably just Intake, exhaust and a bit of tuning. Those things are stupid quick from the factory! And literally are neck- snapping fast around turns lol

Though I wonder... did he have slicks on? or at least R compound street tires? I noticed no one else had them (or at least I didnt see any). I mostly saw the Muscle cars with Eagle KDW 2's. Which at least to my knowledge, aren't R-Compound, or DOT Race tires.

Honestly I was expecting to see some Toyo R888's! Though I don't know if they're any better/worse.. I just remember seeing a lot of guys running them in AutoCross when street legal tires with specific wear ratings were required.

But hey, what do I know? I just own a supercharged truck now. I can't turn! :6gears: :rotfl:

Slick68
03-11-2013, 11:16 AM
Just so you know, the GT-R is Twin Turbo from the Factory. He didn't do much to the engine. Probably just Intake, exhaust and a bit of tuning. Those things are stupid quick from the factory! And literally are neck- snapping fast around turns lol

Though I wonder... did he have slicks on? or at least R compound street tires? I noticed no one else had them (or at least I didnt see any). I mostly saw the Muscle cars with Eagle KDW 2's. Which at least to my knowledge, aren't R-Compound, or DOT Race tires.

Honestly I was expecting to see some Toyo R888's! Though I don't know if they're any better/worse.. I just remember seeing a lot of guys running them in AutoCross when street legal tires with specific wear ratings were required.

But hey, what do I know? I just own a supercharged truck now. I can't turn! :6gears: :rotfl:

My bad. I thought they were naturally aspirated. As far as I know, all cars were limited to 200TW tires.

79-TA
03-12-2013, 12:14 AM
So are some of the muscle cars running comp 2's? That right there is a huge crutch. The KDW compared to 200 tw tires on an import is also going to present a problem.

But yes people, imports can be quick, especially if driven by reasonably talented people. While the off track excursions are hard to watch, it's nice to see that Bill and his crew didn't just pre-run the track a bunch before filming.

My favorite import of the show was the quick purple E36. That car and driver combination was quicker than the muscle car that won the round, but he just couldn't make the pass. His attempt to just barely keep the outside wheel on the inside of the corner was pretty great.

rfalker1
03-24-2013, 11:59 AM
+1...Priceless, made me LOL ! :spank2:

Some of these imports are fast on the tight curvy front course they're using..... but, name a single import that ever made the hair on the back of you neck stand up when it fired up with a nasty cackle ? They have no soul, no style, and "they ain't from around here" :usa:


I Love my supra and when it starts up id does not scare my daughter like my 68 camaro but high pitch whine is nuts ad will scare the crap out of people if they dare ride with me!!

badazz81z28
03-24-2013, 01:52 PM
I Love my supra and when it starts up id does not scare my daughter like my 68 camaro but high pitch whine is nuts ad will scare the crap out of people if they dare ride with me!!



I agree there are some great performing tuner cars out there (GTR), but I'm talking about the POSs that seem to have beat great PT cars in the first couple episodes.

Atomic 67
03-24-2013, 04:59 PM
Yes, 500 rear wheel HP and 565 lbs torque with 6lbs boost. JB

Atomic 67
03-24-2013, 05:08 PM
My Atomic 67 was orginally built for show...trunk has a complete sound system. Does not help that I picked up some weight myself that week drinking so much beer with Finch and others. My allignment was neutral, no negative camber. The short course with a few tight corners made it tough with only 255 front tires and 335 rear rubber. My hood weighs a ton too...looking to put a carbon fiber hood on if I am able to find one here soon that is reasonable.

JB

skooli
03-31-2013, 10:17 PM
"It takes a lot of work to make a "muscle car" handle as well as a stock Honda Civic"


WTF? What Civic have you been driving? I have driven a civic...BS.

Gotta agree with you. Honda Civics are the Bic lighters of modern cars. They are inexpensive, purpose built, gas saver, commuter cars. They have extremely simple suspensions built to handle gentle driving. I put some 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, new coils up front, subframe connectors, sway bars, and KYB shocks on my 68 Mustang and it corners better than any stock Honda Civic. That's a fairly standard, easy (done in an afternoon) modification. If go DSE or Hotchkis or something along those lines, the Civic is toast.

Simmo
04-01-2013, 03:59 AM
Gotta agree with you. Honda Civics are the Bic lighters of modern cars. They are inexpensive, purpose built, gas saver, commuter cars. They have extremely simple suspensions built to handle gentle driving. I put some 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, new coils up front, subframe connectors, sway bars, and KYB shocks on my 68 Mustang and it corners better than any stock Honda Civic. That's a fairly standard, easy (done in an afternoon) modification. If go DSE or Hotchkis or something along those lines, the Civic is toast.

Depends what sort of stock Honda Civic you're talking about!

73808

No sound deadening, lightweight glass, Recaro Seats....sounds a lot like the 2014 Z/28 Camaro...only this was 15 odd years ago :poke:

As much as I hate to admit it, I would be over the moon if my project handles as good as one of these ^^^, and that's with a C6 based front and 3 link rear. Having driven one, on a track, on RA1's, I can qualify the statement.

Thankfully acceleration is another story altogether :spank2:

darkling
04-01-2013, 01:21 PM
forget the newer gtr's they are a rich man's toy 90 grand and every time you go to the track you get a set amount of time in the track position on the ecu they you have to take it to nissan for a 2000.00 tune and fluid change .don't get me wrong a x friend has one they are damn fast over 520hp in his but the 140 k he has invested in his is gone forever .

most american classics will never loose what you put into them is they arn't molested to much

also remember weight = horsepower so that 200 lbs beergut does make the car look slower i love the show but damn guys it you can't turm the wheel cause the guts in the way move the seatbrackets

vintageracer
04-01-2013, 02:08 PM
I Vintage raced a 66 Shelby GT 350 for 7 years. The cars best lap time at Road Atlanta with me driving was 1.44. The car weighed 3300 lbs with my big ass in the car. 347 Cheater stroker motor that dynoed a little less than 450 HP, Expensive Goodyear tire the whole shooting match trick suspension that was "somewhat" vintage. The car would run almost 165 MPH bumping the rev limited down the back straight based upon our gearing and redline.

My 69 Datsun 510 weighed 2150 lbs with my big ass in the car. The car had a 2 litre engine that dynoed 238 HP (Bad Ass) for 2.0 litre vintage Datsun. The car was over 30 MPH SLOWER than than my Shelby down the back straight at Road Atlanta. The cars best lap time at Road Atlanta with me driving was 1.44. BOTH cars ran the same lap time with the same driver at the same track.

The Datsun would STOP & TURN. What a novel idea. Yes the Shelby had the HP, the sound and it was fun to drive in Group 6 with all the other Balls to the Wall Corvettes, Shelby's, Porsche's, Jaguars and the like. The Datsun 510 was far MORE FUN to race and a much better race car. So much so that I sold the Shelby a car my friend Mark and I built from scratch!

The cars were a totally different driving experience. They both ran the same lap times with the same driver and one car was over 30 MPH SLOWER than the other car. It's not about total HP its more important to be able to STOP AND TURN! Two TOTALLY DIFFERENT DRIVING cars with the same driver turning the same lap time at the same track. As a side note the Datsun was also a LOT CHEAPER to maintain & race. It gets old fast paying $1200 a set for tires for the Shelby that you hope will last the weekend when other guys use 2-3 sets a weekend. The Datsun Toyo race tires would last all race season!

I also sold the Datsun over a year ago. WHEN I buy another Vintage Race car rest assured it will not be a big ole American Trans Am type race car. It will probably be another Japanese two time winning Trans Am car (1971-1972). A Datsun 510!

Small & quiet does NOT mean it's not FAST!

skooli
04-01-2013, 09:42 PM
Also if anyone has ridden motocross, you know racing is more driver than machine. You won't dive into a corner faster than you are comfortable. When you do the results are counterproductive like spinning out or running off the track. So at times the slower vehicle is actually easier to turn faster lap times. And in the case of some of the cars on the show, I think they may have more motor than their brakes and suspension are set up for.

pharmd
04-03-2013, 04:57 PM
Yes they are... that WRX... would have wiped the floor with 90% of those cars given equal footing... ( i don't believe 700 HP R&D car with a pro driver is a fair comparison)

How about this put Ken Block is a WRX with stock suspension and a little clutch and turbo tweaking... He would smoke 100% of the PT cars including any pro Driver...

Dont get me wrong, these are apples and oranges.. what we do with these Antiques is really amazing... it just doesn't measure up to what Big auto has done in the same 40+ years... we can get close... but it just doesn't compare... IMHO

Sadly this is pretty fair information...If you look at OUSCI the GT-R and the lightly modified EVO finished TOP 5 vs Pro-touring cars that have tons of work and well over $100K in them. A used Evo with $10-15 K in suspension, brakes, tires and motor/tuning would be really really hard to handle with equal drivers. Sucks but light weight and AWD with just a little power is REALLY REALLY competitive.

bishir
04-04-2013, 09:17 AM
Question is which one makes better TV, Just fast enough or never see the two cars in the same frame from the drop of the green?

Maybe by the end of the series that question will be answered,,,until then I am not telling :)

Exactly! My suggestion is to eliminate the roadcourse and add something simililar to the speed stop challenge, but do it side by side. This would a) keep both cars in the frame and b) eliminate the chance of the cars running into/hindering the other's performance.

Or maybe revise the format somewhat and have them pick the competition and have them compete at 3 different skills. Speed/stop, Roadcourse, Drag Race.

GeoffP
04-09-2013, 07:03 PM
Question is which one makes better TV, Just fast enough or never see the two cars in the same frame from the drop of the green?

Maybe by the end of the series that question will be answered,,,until then I am not telling :)

Ok so since the show is over (hopefully just for the season), are you telling now Brian??

GrabberGT
04-10-2013, 06:01 AM
Exactly! My suggestion is to eliminate the roadcourse and add something simililar to the speed stop challenge, but do it side by side. This would a) keep both cars in the frame and b) eliminate the chance of the cars running into/hindering the other's performance.

Or maybe revise the format somewhat and have them pick the competition and have them compete at 3 different skills. Speed/stop, Roadcourse, Drag Race.

Pro Solo :headbang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANaacY50yE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzRSRgtr1o

keithq69
04-10-2013, 10:12 PM
It's TV, not a real competition.
It has to be fun for viewers not necessarily participants.
Wheel to wheel is way more exciting to watch than timed runs.

shortrack
04-11-2013, 06:13 PM
Wheel to wheel also introduces racecraft into the equation, which adds pressure and another dimension to deal with for the competitors. I find timed events fun to do but boring to watch.

Jok3r
04-18-2013, 01:41 PM
Gotta agree with you. Honda Civics are the Bic lighters of modern cars. They are inexpensive, purpose built, gas saver, commuter cars. They have extremely simple suspensions built to handle gentle driving. I put some 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, new coils up front, subframe connectors, sway bars, and KYB shocks on my 68 Mustang and it corners better than any stock Honda Civic. That's a fairly standard, easy (done in an afternoon) modification. If go DSE or Hotchkis or something along those lines, the Civic is toast.

hondas are no good, my 73 camaro was much faster than an entire integra club thru a canyon known for racing. I will be buying the full hotchkis setup for it soon, but there is no way a solid axle on leaf springs is going to handle as well as my 2006 nissan 350z with IRS, coils and some crazy multi arm suspension.
the cars in this show however are back halfed custom coil overed cars. the year one car, or the dse cars have to be more expensive to build than to buy a new gtr. i would like to see more newer american muscle cars like 2000+ camaros and gto's. those would be better comparisons to a bmw or mitsubishi. There has to someone out there with a new mustang willing to race for them. also where are the corvettes? a built c5 could be a good race for a gtr.

badazz81z28
04-22-2013, 04:19 PM
hondas are no good, my 73 camaro was much faster than an entire integra club thru a canyon known for racing. I will be buying the full hotchkis setup for it soon, but there is no way a solid axle on leaf springs is going to handle as well as my 2006 nissan 350z with IRS, coils and some crazy multi arm suspension.
.the cars in this show however are back halfed custom coil overed cars. the year one car, or the dse cars have to be more expensive to build than to buy a new gtr i would like to see more newer american muscle cars like 2000+ camaros and gto's. those would be better comparisons to a bmw or mitsubishi. There has to someone out there with a new mustang willing to race for them. also where are the corvettes? a built c5 could be a good race for a gtr.

The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

Camaro $3-5K
DSE Front $10K
DSE Rear $10K
LS7 $15K
Magnum $3K
Misc $15K

srh3trinity
04-22-2013, 04:56 PM
The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

Camaro $3-5K
DSE Front $10K
DSE Rear $10K
LS7 $15K
Magnum $3K
Misc $15K

I know your numbers are rough estimates, but you are sitting at 65k plus before safety and wheel, tires and brake components. Not to mention paint. Some of that would be covered by your miscellaneous category, but not all of it.

AE fabrication
04-22-2013, 05:01 PM
I don't think you guys understand how easy it is to make "enough" power with these light weight cars. I have several friends with 10sec EVOs making 500+Hp they don't get on road courses to the best of my knowledge because that's just not big in my area. The GT-R is a race car. It runs with the big dogs (lamborghini goulardo porsche GT3, ferrari F430) right out of the box. As for hondas not handling, they are always at the top of the list in world touring. i have a good friend with a 2011 civic Si with a supercharger making 411Hp at the wheels and still averages 41mpg. All those used bmws and audis just need an ecu intake and exhaust and they can add an extra 100hp easy. I have a Saab 9-5 that made well over 350hp with hardly anything done to it but it now sits with a bad crank because well... that's what they are known for. Power to weight is the key in any form of racing. With light the weight you don't need the power. But many of these imports have the power with light weight.

shortrack
04-22-2013, 10:30 PM
I don't think you guys understand how easy it is to make "enough" power with these light weight cars. I have several friends with 10sec EVOs making 500+Hp they don't get on road courses to the best of my knowledge because that's just not big in my area. The GT-R is a race car. It runs with the big dogs (lamborghini goulardo porsche GT3, ferrari F430) right out of the box. As for hondas not handling, they are always at the top of the list in world touring. i have a good friend with a 2011 civic Si with a supercharger making 411Hp at the wheels and still averages 41mpg. All those used bmws and audis just need an ecu intake and exhaust and they can add an extra 100hp easy. I have a Saab 9-5 that made well over 350hp with hardly anything done to it but it now sits with a bad crank because well... that's what they are known for. Power to weight is the key in any form of racing. With light the weight you don't need the power. But many of these imports have the power with light weight.

I guess they should have brought them out to R U Faster, if they dont its just talk.

nekkidhillbilly
04-26-2013, 05:08 PM
the problem i was seeing i think it was miata or a wrx one the muscle car they had against it was only a 100-200 lbs heavier but double the power and the car barley beat it or lost. even if the mc handled worse. it would have to have to be the equivalent of a box truck for it to not walk all over the import. a z skyline supra even a wrx i can see being a exceptional car on a road course. alot of these cars like the civic for example are not but the muscle cars are spanked by them even. ive driven a civic, a celica, eclipse etcc.... and i was not impressed in the curves at all. my 3/4 ton truck did as good as some of these on some twisty roads. the z car is the only import (thats considered a tuner car) ive had a chance to drive that i was impressed by alot. if the show had a abody gm that was properly tuned with the proper control arms and so forth we would see a difference or one of the irs muscle cars rather than the leaf spring cars.

shortrack
04-26-2013, 08:10 PM
the problem i was seeing i think it was miata or a wrx one the muscle car they had against it was only a 100-200 lbs heavier but double the power and the car barley beat it or lost. even if the mc handled worse. it would have to have to be the equivalent of a box truck for it to not walk all over the import.

The whole track is not even a mile in length. That is the perfect scenario for a lightweight low powered car to do well against a high powered heavy car. Run the event on my hometown Mosport Park (its actually the fastest track the ALMS series races on) with an uphill 3/4 mile long straight with a 4th gear turn at the end and see what those big power musclecars will do to those imports.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/DSC02039-1.jpg (http://s962.photobucket.com/user/shortrack/media/DSC02039.jpg.html)


Heres a pic of my Iroc at a track day at Mosport. That Corvette ahead of me was in my group. The car looked very stock to me. My car has a good running 305 tpi 5 spd in it, about the same power as a stock 5.0 Mustang. Out of the 2nd and third gear corners on the track that Vette would pull away pretty good but I could make it up late braking and sliding the car through the next corner.

However, you come on to that 3/4 mi long straight in the bottom of second gear and he would pull away smartly at that point but not REAL bad (like what you saw the MCs do on the show) but by the time I hit 4th gear he was fading off into the distance VERY quickly and into 5th he was a little dot way the h ell up there!!. Given the chance to stretch its legs that car kicked my azz BAD! So the moral is you see the MCs spank the imports pretty good power wise on a little wee track like that, they would run away and hide on a real track. At least on the straights.

I dont know much about Vettes...anyone know how much power that thing would have. Im pretty sure it was an automatic.

oldsmobeast72
04-26-2013, 09:10 PM
Abs and traction control helps

Aficionado
04-28-2013, 06:46 AM
However, you come on to that 3/4 mi long straight in the bottom of second gear and he would pull away smartly at that point but not REAL bad (like what you saw the MCs do on the show) but by the time I hit 4th gear he was fading off into the distance VERY quickly and into 5th he was a little dot way the h ell up there!!. Given the chance to stretch its legs that car kicked my azz BAD! So the moral is you see the MCs spank the imports pretty good power wise on a little wee track like that, they would run away and hide on a real track. At least on the straights.

I dont know much about Vettes...anyone know how much power that thing would have. Im pretty sure it was an automatic.

That's a C5 Corvette. Box-stock they had about 345 hp and pulled about 1G.... of course a lot of them have been warmed over. I used to spend a lot of time driving a '99 with about 390hp, and it pulled pretty hard.

(Sorry for the hijack)

James OLC
04-28-2013, 08:15 AM
The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

Camaro $3-5K
DSE Front $10K
DSE Rear $10K
LS7 $15K
Magnum $3K
Misc $15K

Rob - will all due respect. You are out of touch.

Mr.VENGEANCE
04-28-2013, 08:38 AM
The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

Camaro $3-5K
DSE Front $10K
DSE Rear $10K
LS7 $15K
Magnum $3K
Misc $15K


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/thatsjustlikeyouropinionman5B15D-1.gif
























































https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/disgust_707676_1567263-1.gif

Todd in Vancouver
04-28-2013, 09:01 AM
Rob - will all due respect. You are out of touch.

Rob, sorry to say but ya that is WAY wrong. You've seen the current state of my car on the rotisserie and getting ready to media blast and I'm pushing $40K and I have SBC 350. It wouldn't take much to break $100K and I would guess that most of the really nice stuff that show up in Camaro Performers are going to be north of $200K. JMHO...

srh3trinity
04-28-2013, 09:07 AM
You would have to factor in the man hours into the YearOne, DSE, Finch builds too. Sure they right it off as these cars are their rolling business cards, but these shops probably (and should) charge top dollar for their builds. A Quadra-Link install and a tub job will cost a pretty penny in labor alone. So for the average guy, you have got to think they would pay somebody to do a good bit of that. I have been quoted 25-35K on paint and body alone on the high end. I have pinched every penny I can and I would guess that my build will go north of 40K or more. I haven't had the guts to sit down with the calculator and reciepts. Ignorance is bliss.

icemanrd19
04-28-2013, 09:45 AM
The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

Camaro $3-5K
DSE Front $10K
DSE Rear $10K
LS7 $15K
Magnum $3K
Misc $15K

more like
Camaro if you are lucky 5k
dse front 9k
front runner 2k
dse rear 8k
Brakes 4k
wheels and tires 4-6k
fuel 2k
ls7 15k
t56 setup 4k
seats and safety low ball 1k
8-15k body work. safe to say 10k to throw numbers together

Honestly you can spend 70k on a nice car quick.

badazz81z28
04-28-2013, 01:45 PM
That's a C5 Corvette. Box-stock they had about 345 hp and pulled about 1G.... of course a lot of them have been warmed over. I used to spend a lot of time driving a '99 with about 390hp, and it pulled pretty hard.

(Sorry for the hijack)

Yes, it really depends if he has worked over the engine. The LS1 is capable of big power. Slap some ported head, cam, intake, headers etc...you will make 520+hp. My LS1 puts down 455 to the tires and I have a somewhat mild cam.

71RS/SS396
04-28-2013, 02:52 PM
The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

Camaro $3-5K
DSE Front $10K
DSE Rear $10K
LS7 $15K
Magnum $3K
Misc $15K

Um, you need to put a 1 or 2 in front of $50K number and it would be more realistic of the actual build cost, my car is a lighter version of Kyle's car and I could of bought 2 GTR's for the build cost, grant it we built the car in 8 mos so the labor was crazy expensive but top notch parts are spendy as well.
The engine cost is likely $20K +, the brakes on Kyle's car are $8k plus $1,500 for the floater conversion ( not including the cost of the housing and 3rd member), the trans and clutch combo are $5k-$6k ....etc it adds up fast.

Mr.VENGEANCE
04-28-2013, 03:00 PM
^

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/gif_clint_yes350-1.gif

daredvl22
04-29-2013, 04:27 AM
Ha ha,....that's funny. I keep a spreadsheet of every part I've purchased to build my Camaro, with date, part#, etc. etc. I'm currently just under $60k and that does not include motor,trans, most of interior, etc. Not to mention, labor! Since I'm doing it all myself, I don't include labor. This is my hobby. If you really think you can build one of these cars for $50k, well.....I can confirm from my own experiences, not possible. I'm sure some people have built great pro-touring cars for less, but when you start getting into the "I'm not cutting corners", and I want the absolute best parts available,...it just doesn't happen.

Poopy
04-29-2013, 06:16 AM
My buddies camaro is up to $40k in paint and body alone....never mind all the other stuff!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/PART_1365177046796_IMG_0766jpg_zpsca73cf-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/Poopy62/media/PART_1365177046796_IMG_0766jpg_zpsca73cfa8.jpg.htm l)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/PART_1364767055319_IMG_0757jpg_zps6eee86-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/Poopy62/media/PART_1364767055319_IMG_0757jpg_zps6eee8644.jpg.htm l)


He was going to buy a GTR but I talked him into this.....so he compromised and used a GTR color. :P

srh3trinity
04-29-2013, 07:16 AM
My buddies camaro is up to $40k in paint and body alone....never mind all the other stuff!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/PART_1365177046796_IMG_0766jpg_zpsca73cf-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/Poopy62/media/PART_1365177046796_IMG_0766jpg_zpsca73cfa8.jpg.htm l)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/PART_1364767055319_IMG_0757jpg_zps6eee86-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/Poopy62/media/PART_1364767055319_IMG_0757jpg_zps6eee8644.jpg.htm l)

He was going to buy a GTR but I talked him into this.....so he compromised and used a GTR color. :P
What wheels are those?

Poopy
04-29-2013, 08:15 AM
What wheels are those?

fikse

Mr.VENGEANCE
04-29-2013, 09:18 AM
jeebus that ass!!!

badazz81z28
04-29-2013, 04:44 PM
I wasn't calculating any labor...I guess if you start adding in the labor, the cost increases dramatically. I know what body and paint can do to a budget in a hurry. If you add the cost of the parts alone, I really think you can do it for less than the six figures as mentioned, but like anything...you pay someone to do it for you; there is no telling.

dangina
05-05-2013, 02:36 PM
what tires are the protouring cars running? does bfgoodrich sponsers their tires? I think the biggest reason for the imports winning on the show is they're running Hoosiers A6's Or Advan's AO48's and from the look of some of the tires on the pro cars, they seem like their running bfgoodrich radial tires? It would explain how they are losing grip on the second or third laps and the imports just seem to walk away...

srh3trinity
05-05-2013, 06:30 PM
I saw GTR's running today at OLOA and those things are legit race ready cars. They blistered that course.

d15b7
05-06-2013, 08:36 PM
all the cars on the show (both imports and rednecks) were required to run 200 treadwear or greater street tires. i think that most all of the rednecks were running BFG street tires. my civic was running Dunlop Direzza Starspec street tires. and yes those GTRs, especially when tuned up, are true super cars. AWD is a huge huge huge advantage especially when running street tires (you can put down basically twice the power). all the OLOA cars have to run street tires too (one set only for the entire race/transit everything).

nekkidhillbilly
05-20-2013, 01:31 PM
The whole track is not even a mile in length. That is the perfect scenario for a lightweight low powered car to do well against a high powered heavy car. Run the event on my hometown Mosport Park (its actually the fastest track the ALMS series races on) with an uphill 3/4 mile long straight with a 4th gear turn at the end and see what those big power musclecars will do to those imports.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/04/DSC02039-1.jpg (http://s962.photobucket.com/user/shortrack/media/DSC02039.jpg.html)


Heres a pic of my Iroc at a track day at Mosport. That Corvette ahead of me was in my group. The car looked very stock to me. My car has a good running 305 tpi 5 spd in it, about the same power as a stock 5.0 Mustang. Out of the 2nd and third gear corners on the track that Vette would pull away pretty good but I could make it up late braking and sliding the car through the next corner.

However, you come on to that 3/4 mi long straight in the bottom of second gear and he would pull away smartly at that point but not REAL bad (like what you saw the MCs do on the show) but by the time I hit 4th gear he was fading off into the distance VERY quickly and into 5th he was a little dot way the h ell up there!!. Given the chance to stretch its legs that car kicked my azz BAD! So the moral is you see the MCs spank the imports pretty good power wise on a little wee track like that, they would run away and hide on a real track. At least on the straights.

I dont know much about Vettes...anyone know how much power that thing would have. Im pretty sure it was an automatic.

i also cant see a fwd car walking away from a rwd both properly set up.

mikes2nd
05-21-2013, 08:37 AM
I can find someone who will paint my car for 25k and another guy will do it for 3k... these "costs" are very subjective...

badazz81z28
05-22-2013, 05:14 PM
I can find someone who will paint my car for 25k and another guy will do it for 3k... these "costs" are very subjective...



VERY SUBJECTIVE!!!

Seems like many people pay for labor, and that is not cheap hence the more $$$. I built my car for no more than $15K and that includes the car...Some people who want that "perfect" show car quality paint...yes it will cost a lot of money. But...we drive these cars...who wants a high dollar paint job?

I'm confident my "guesstimate" is accurate if you do the labor your self.

71RS/SS396
05-23-2013, 04:54 AM
VERY SUBJECTIVE!!!

Seems like many people pay for labor, and that is not cheap hence the more $$$. I built my car for no more than $15K and that includes the car...Some people who want that "perfect" show car quality paint...yes it will cost a lot of money. But...we drive these cars...who wants a high dollar paint job? I'm confident my "guesstimate" is accurate if you do the labor your self.

You need to research what parts are actually on those cars. The prices you posted are standard parts without upgrades, an example is the magnum price at $3K, which will not live long behind a 650-700 hp engine road racing it, by the time you get done upgrading it to survive a season you will be into for $4,500+. I put together a quick list of the major parts on my car which is very similar to Kyle and Brians. This list doesn't include the ecu, harness, a/c, tires, plumbing, carbon body parts, gauges, roll cage, paint, or interior.

Quick list

Engine: $20,000
Trans: $4,500
Brakes: $8,000
Wheels: $4,200
Clutch: $1,600
Fuel tank/pump: $2,700
Rearend w/floater: $8,500
quadra-link w/tubs:$5,000
Sub frame: $9,500
Headers: $2,000
Radiator: $2,200

Total: $68,200

Mr.VENGEANCE
05-23-2013, 08:37 AM
This guy again..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

badazz81z28
05-23-2013, 08:07 PM
This is very subjective as this argument could go on forever! Really...a $1600 clutch? overkill....Upgrading a T56 Magnum? $2200 radiator? $2000 headers? Overkill....where are you buying parts???

Don't get me wrong, building a bullet proof drive train I'm sure is worth it when you beat the living snot out of it! But come on...those prices are grossly inflated.

05-23-2013, 09:58 PM
This is very subjective as this argument could go on forever! Really...a $1600 clutch? overkill....Upgrading a T56 Magnum? $2200 radiator? $2000 headers? Overkill....where are you buying parts???

Don't get me wrong, building a bullet proof drive train I'm sure is worth it when you beat the living snot out of it! But come on...those prices are grossly inflated.


All of that stuff seems grossly expensive, unnecessary and overkill. You can definitely build a car cheaper and take it out and run with the big dogs... Then your parts will break. Then, maybe you'll upgrade to something a that is stronger. Maybe you'll buy a full floater because you can't because those Torino big bearings in your Ford 9" just aren't cut out for racing. You'll finally be able to drive more confidently into and around corners. Then your shocks just won't cut it compared to the competition, now you're upgrading from some Verishocks or QA1s to some RideTechs or JRis. They work great and you're tearing up the track, but you didn't invest in an expensive road race oil pan or a good dry sump setup, and you hurt your engine whilst pulling through a high speed sweeping corner. Time to pull it apart, now you might as well add more power. You put everything back together and now your 700hp engine just destroys your clutch. Damn now it is time to get that expensive dual disk clutch. Now everything is really running well and when you head out to the track you don't have to pull off because of some weird and very disconcerting noise. you look down at your gauges during the straight and... water temps are 260 and oil temps are 285, (if you even have a gauge for that). That's not good. Now the cores in the radiator have been expanded from overheating and your oil has suffered some viscosity break down. Nothing ever seems to go right, does it?

We probably could argue about this forever. What qualifies as nice is always subjective. However, arguing over how much it costs to build a car like Finch's car, or any of the DSE test cars isn't really that subjective. Throw in an extra 30k for a nice paint job and interior over something basic. Tim's 68K estimate might seem high in some spots, but it doesn't factor in all of the parts that that range between $50-$350, and there are a ton of those. My experience is that it is impossible to believe how much money gets sucked up building a pro-touring car comparable to any of the fast cars out there, until you try to build one. Nobody ever talks about how expensive -AN fittings are, but once you start adding oil coolers, and power steering coolers, and vents, and breathers, or dry sumps, you start realizing how much all the little things cost. The little misc. things don't nickel and dime you either. Those little fittings are always between $25 and $100 per fitting!

I suppose we will probably all continue arguing because we can't believe how much it costs to build a certain type of car, or because we built a competitive car and had the misfortune of adding up the receipts, or maybe because we simply stopped adding things up after 70K, which was a year ago before the car was painted...

Matt

05-23-2013, 10:02 PM
Where is Mr. Vengeance? I think the most appropriate thing for this discussion right now would be another Big Lebowski gif from the end of the film where he just says, "F--- it dude. Let's go bowling."

71RS/SS396
05-24-2013, 03:38 AM
This is very subjective as this argument could go on forever! Really...a $1600 clutch? overkill....Upgrading a T56 Magnum? $2200 radiator? $2000 headers? Overkill....where are you buying parts???

Don't get me wrong, building a bullet proof drive train I'm sure is worth it when you beat the living snot out of it! But come on...those prices are grossly inflated.

This argument is not subjective at all, you stated you could build Kyle's or Brian's cars for $50-$60K if you did all the work, I'm trying to show you that you cannot. I posted a list of parts on my car totaling $68K+ and left a ton off the list, so now the argument from you is my prices are inflated.
Those prices are NOT grossly over inflated, when you build a car like Kyle's, Brian's, or mine that is built to be raced and you're trying to reduce the failure of parts, you buy the best you can find. The $1,600 clutch is an iron twin disc with an aluminum flywheel, trust me you can spend 3X's that on a clutch. The $2,000 headers are DSE headers, open their catalog and check the price, they're actually $2,500 if you buy the stainless V band clamps like I did. The $2,200 radiator is from C&R racing, it has built in oil cooler, power steering cooler, and dual 12" Spal fans to manage the insane heat that gets generated on the track, I beat my car like a rented mule in 100* temps and the oil will stay below 240*.
As Matt eluded to I didn't include the plumbing cost ( $4,000) or all the small stuff that is required to complete the car. Take your car out to one of these events that has road racing and see how it does, 10-15 laps on a road course will expose every weakness the car has.

BuzzKillian
05-24-2013, 04:50 AM
Take your car out to one of these events that has road racing and see how it does, 10-15 laps on a road course will expose every weakness the car has.

IF you want to be competitive, and not have to FIX something every time you get back from the track. You need parts like Tim is describing. His part prices are not inflated. I have been looking at upgrades ever since I ran Gingerman last year. (mainly brakes) If you don't buy the right wheels (I have cast 17" wheels) to begin with, your brake upgrade could really be cost preventative. My car is fine on the street and some AutoX s, but IF I want to hit the next level... Some "things" will have to change. (driver skill included)

Finch
05-24-2013, 08:35 AM
All I will say is that it costs money to go fast, more than you can ever try to sit down and estimate pre-build.

I never even wanted to keep track as it would only cause additional stress and could be used against me in a court of law. Divorce court that is.

ace_xp2
05-24-2013, 10:52 AM
71RS, you had a T56 magnum fail? What was the nature of the failure? I'm surprised, that power shouldn't be beyond the factory rating unless you're running a real torque monster.
Was it a temperature thing? I could see cooling becoming important as the constant duty of track racing comes in to play. Still, at that horsepower level I'd not of thought of more than a cooler would be needed.

Ron Sutton
05-24-2013, 02:34 PM
All I will say is that it costs money to go fast, more than you can ever try to sit down and estimate pre-build.

I never even wanted to keep track as it would only cause additional stress and could be used against me in a court of law. Divorce court that is.


Way too true ... and funny.

James OLC
05-24-2013, 03:22 PM
All I will say is that it costs money to go fast, more than you can ever try to sit down and estimate pre-build.

I never even wanted to keep track as it would only cause additional stress and could be used against me in a court of law. Divorce court that is.

Amen Reverend... Amen

1Bad68camaro
05-25-2013, 07:02 PM
Turn one seems to kill the rednecks. Practice practice practice. Looks like a ton of fun tho.

72BBSwinger
05-25-2013, 07:10 PM
I dont have half the money alot the people on here do in there rides. There also a lot of super nice and engineered components out there people have axcess to for the GM and Ford camps. Even if DSE had a complete end all suspension setup I could by off the shelf I probably couldnt afford it, besides my car is already blessed with some damn good geometry in stock form. It must of been an accident on Chryslers part lol!

GNon18s
05-25-2013, 07:30 PM
I like Kyle and Stacy too, but $2,500 for headers is just stupid!

CarlC
05-25-2013, 07:32 PM
Amen Reverend... Amen

Ignorance is bliss. In this case, I don't want to know.

I do know for sure that it would be less expensive, both in time and money, to buy a modern high-performance car than it would be to try and build a piece of old iron to similar performance levels. One must be in it for the love of the car because any of this sort of thing make no financial sense.

I must really love my car.

GNon18s
05-25-2013, 07:38 PM
The headers below were custom built step-headers, stainless, with V-band collectors. Crammed between a big block and a tight frame rail. They were beautiful and cost $1,700 to have custom built! Anyone paying a penny more is doing business with the wrong people.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/05/troysheader-1.jpg (http://s1189.photobucket.com/user/GNon18s/media/troysheader.jpg.html)

Crestronwizard
05-26-2013, 09:38 AM
All I will say is that it costs money to go fast, more than you can ever try to sit down and estimate pre-build.

I never even wanted to keep track as it would only cause additional stress and could be used against me in a court of law. Divorce court that is.

Yup!............ Hell, my car is finally coming together at long last and just in the last two weeks I've blown through $4k on all the little crap. Hoses, AN fittings, etc etc etc. I love it when someone can build on a budget and run with the big dogs though. Consistency, well that's whole other story.

1Bad68camaro
05-26-2013, 01:59 PM
Yea, mine is a little over $60k now and I did the majority of everything myself. Good parts add up quick. LS motor, built 6 spd, twin clutch, custom turbo kit all powdercoated and hot side wrapped, cage, gauges, fab-9 rear, full CA chassisworks front suspension, wilwood 14" 6 piston brakes, wilwood master, adjustable clutch master, 20x16 and 19x8 wheels and tires, sfi bellhousing, coilovers front and rear, all new metal and glass, paint and body, led tail lights and turn signals, DSE electric RS conversion, billit hood hinges, sparco seats and harnesses, all new interior, lokar pedal kit, full stereo setup, HID headlights. All new seals and trim in whole car. It can get rediculous fast. Especially if you want the car to be able to do more than one thing well.

Crestronwizard
05-26-2013, 04:22 PM
I like your sig line 1Bad68camaro :)

shortrack
05-26-2013, 06:11 PM
I looked at 71RS/SS396s "Track Car Build" build thread and I believe it when he quotes those prices of parts. The problem as I see it is every one of those parts are racing spec parts made to fit a 70 Camaro. They end up being almost one offs which equals $$. If he had made his 70 Camaro fit off the self racing parts. You would have 1/2 the money into it. 1/4 if he bought used race parts. Look at my radiator, I made mounts to fit that rad to my car. You can buy these from a place like www.circletrackwarehouse for 2 or 3 hundred bucks. It is a standard sized racing rad and my car has the mounts so now I have all kinds of options.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/05/DSC01109-1.jpg (http://s962.photobucket.com/user/shortrack/media/DSC01109.jpg.html)

badazz81z28
05-26-2013, 07:03 PM
What I was trying to say is buying a $2000 radiator is not required to have a high performing dependable car. CAn you really say $2500 headers perform that much greater than the $350 pair I run? Some parts are overkill and don't yield any more dependability or strength over lower priced parts. Unless the majority can chime in and confirm. Who is upgrading t56 magnums to support 550 rwhp?

shortrack
05-26-2013, 07:20 PM
Look here for complete front ends http://www.howeracing.com/p-7861-rt-road-race.aspx

or here http://www.howeracing.com/p-7340-reworked-oem.aspx

71RS/SS396
05-27-2013, 03:52 AM
What I was trying to say is buying a $2000 radiator is not required to have a high performing dependable car. CAn you really say $2500 headers perform that much greater than the $350 pair I run? Some parts are overkill and don't yield any more dependability or strength over lower priced parts. Unless the majority can chime in and confirm. Who is upgrading t56 magnums to support 550 rwhp?

Could I have found cheaper headers to get the job done? Maybe, but as I said before we built the car in 8 months so time was at a premium, I went with parts that I knew would fit and get the job done. Updating the trans isn't all about the power, it also has to do with durability from the heat and constant high rpm's, I saw 2 guys break out of the box magnums at the Heidts event. The price on the radiator seems high until you factor in the built in coolers and the fans, price a high quality racing radiator, then price a couple of high quality oil coolers and a pair of quality fans, there's also packaging to consider, it's far easier to package my radiator with the coolers than it is to package and plumb a radiator and 2 separate coolers, not to mention you are putting more weight more further forward in the car.

srh3trinity
05-27-2013, 12:11 PM
I can't believe the debate over this is still going. I guess one of you guys is going to have to build a car that fits into your sub 50K budget and take it to every event that either Finch or the DSE folks go to and A)keep up with and/or beat their times and B)keep your receipts and keep up with what you have to replace as you beat on a car that hard. In all fairness, if Finch or DSE had to replace a part, you would get a pass if you had to replace a similar part. The car would have to be pretty road friendly too as from what I have seen, the Test Cars and Finch's Camaro look like they would be capable of being driven on trips to and from these events (you could trailer to the ones they do). That is the only way you could prove that the car was equivocal in the first place and that it is as durable. I think you would have to keep your receipts for any parts in building the car but whatever work you do doesn't go into the equation. Now there is an idea for a TV show and a really cool challenge. I for one would love to see it as I would try to duplicate it if the experiment was successful. My car will hopefully be a sub-50K car, but I don't have any thoughts that it would be comparable to the cars referenced at the beginning of this discussion. This is a very expensive hobby.

Crestronwizard
05-27-2013, 12:48 PM
I can't believe the debate over this is still going. I guess one of you guys is going to have to build a car that fits into your sub 50K budget and take it to every event that either Finch or the DSE folks go to and A)keep up with and/or beat their times and B)keep your receipts and keep up with what you have to replace as you beat on a car that hard. In all fairness, if Finch or DSE had to replace a part, you would get a pass if you had to replace a similar part. The car would have to be pretty road friendly too as from what I have seen, the Test Cars and Finch's Camaro look like they would be capable of being driven on trips to and from these events (you could trailer to the ones they do). That is the only way you could prove that the car was equivocal in the first place and that it is as durable. I think you would have to keep your receipts for any parts in building the car but whatever work you do doesn't go into the equation. Now there is an idea for a TV show and a really cool challenge. I for one would love to see it as I would try to duplicate it if the experiment was successful. My car will hopefully be a sub-50K car, but I don't have any thoughts that it would be comparable to the cars referenced at the beginning of this discussion. This is a very expensive hobby.

I'd Watch...........I was over $50k 18 months ago

badazz81z28
05-27-2013, 01:19 PM
I can't believe the debate over this is still going. I guess one of you guys is going to have to build a car that fits into your sub 50K budget and take it to every event that either Finch or the DSE folks go to and A)keep up with and/or beat their times and B)keep your receipts and keep up with what you have to replace as you beat on a car that hard. In all fairness, if Finch or DSE had to replace a part, you would get a pass if you had to replace a similar part. The car would have to be pretty road friendly too as from what I have seen, the Test Cars and Finch's Camaro look like they would be capable of being driven on trips to and from these events (you could trailer to the ones they do). That is the only way you could prove that the car was equivocal in the first place and that it is as durable. I think you would have to keep your receipts for any parts in building the car but whatever work you do doesn't go into the equation. Now there is an idea for a TV show and a really cool challenge. I for one would love to see it as I would try to duplicate it if the experiment was successful. My car will hopefully be a sub-50K car, but I don't have any thoughts that it would be comparable to the cars referenced at the beginning of this discussion. This is a very expensive hobby.

ummm....Pozzi? In all fairness there are numerous low buck cars that can carry their own.

72BBSwinger
05-27-2013, 06:25 PM
When it turns into checkbook racing, I forfeit. I learned a long time ago that trying to keep up with people with more cabbage than me is unhealthy for my survival. I look at what I have in my car and what else is out there and I ask myself, " And I thought Chevys were cheap to build?" They USED to be. Its great that this hobby is thriving and its also great to see American iron with American parts. A car is as capable as the nut behind the wheel.

05-27-2013, 08:53 PM
ummm....Pozzi? In all fairness there are numerous low buck cars that can carry their own.

This is just never going to end, is it? I hate to break it to you, but Mary's car is worth way more than 50K.

Which other cars are you thinking of besides Mary's car?

I can think of a few cars that you might be able to build for 50k after purchasing the car, but I can literally only think of three out west. The catch is that we would be talking the cost to duplicate these cars, and these cars have a ton of hours devoted to developing and racing them, meaning the owners might have built their cars for less money initially, but all of the gas, hotels, and parts ordered after the initial build, which were all necessary to find something that worked well, undoubtedly add up to well... a lot.

Matt

jeffandre
05-27-2013, 09:35 PM
I have owned my 71 camaro since 1985 while keeping track of all part purchases. Until the current ls3 install I have done all labor myself. Since I am in no hurry I have been able to research the hell out of options using multiple forums as well as a number of knowledgeable people to try to make better choices. I am at 55k and still need body/paint, interior, better trans, and eventually a better rear. This machine is a lifelong project and will take me another 10 years to get to 99% complete. I will enjoy autox and track day events, plus a lot of highway miles. 100k is in my future, and that is with effort applied towards finding deals! Will I be able to complete with the big dogs? Probably not too well, but I do believe that if an excellent driver was behind the wheel the results would be respectable. For me this is an important investment in my overall life happiness! Now let's get back to the driving!!!

Sales-TCI-Eng
05-28-2013, 06:57 AM
In all fairness there are numerous low buck cars that can carry their own.


^^^^^This

Our Camaro has hung with and beat some of the best cars out there yet anyone could easily duplicate our car for under $50K. It just has a garage built 355" SBC with a 700R4. Although, if we were to build that car today it would get a take-out LS1/T56 which would actually cost less money and make the same power.

-J

72BBSwinger
05-28-2013, 07:01 AM
These prices are seriously F****** rediculous, I think anyway.

srh3trinity
05-28-2013, 10:05 AM
I didn't say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of ending the discussion, I just wanted to encourage somebody to do it. The initial statement that started the debate was that you could build a car equivalent to Finch's Camaro or one of the DSE Test Cars for less than 50-60K. If you mean the same pile of parts, I think it has been shown over and over again that you would spend more than 50-60K on the parts alone. If by equivalent you mean a car that can run with them and have the same street manners, then it is possible but it would still be difficult. I love the budget builds on the site, but I think if you took some of those cars and drove them as hard and fast as the DSE cars, you would find a weak point requiring more money to be invested. I don't think you could get the same combo of looks, ride quality/adjustability, reliability/endurance as those cars have for that price range, in other words a duplicate car.

coolwelder62
05-28-2013, 12:54 PM
I guess I will jump in here.It is possible to build a camaro that will run w/DSE or Brian Finch for around 50K.But you will need to be able to wheel the thing when it's finished as well/or better than Kyle or Brian.I have ridden with both of those guy's and they are Very,
very fast.In order to build a super fast winning car for under 50K you must be able to fabricate as well as you drive (So you can do all the labor your self).You will need to build a award winning suspension,mini tub install,roll cage,and every aspect of the build will need some type of atention to detail.When in comes time to build Just putting the battery in the trunk because that is where everyone else doesnt it is just not good enough.Putting the car on the scales as you build is very important.everything must be put the perfect spot so in the end you have a balanced car w/o adding weight to get there.Remember the Dry sumped LS power plant will eat up about 20K,So now you only have 30K left for everything else.Brakes,wheels tires,saftey equipment,etc.When my chevelle is finished I will be starting a 69 camaro build,out of all new sheet metal.Every part as the body go's togather will weighed, lighted in some forum or another then carefully welded in place.I am going to build everything I can from sratch as to save money.I will be buying things like DSE mini tubs,body mount kit.These type of things cant be built for what they cost to buy.Hooker headers makes a real nice set of headers that fit my C-6 sub frame perfect.They are around $600.00 w/o jethot coating.The jet hot coating on things like this is a must for long living parts.It will probably take about 8-12 months for the total build.I will let my Kevin drive at the events where we want to compete for a win. Looking at wraping the to save a little weight.The car will get A/C and a little bit of interior.My new sub frame design will let a 12in wheel fit a 1st gen. if you are willing to rework the outer fender lip a tad. We will see how things come togather,When I get around to getting started.I do already have all the 69 body panels and a ks title for the project.700HP and a total vehicle weight of 2600# less driver should be do able.

badazz81z28
05-28-2013, 04:13 PM
This is just never going to end, is it? I hate to break it to you, but Mary's car is worth way more than 50K.

Which other cars are you thinking of besides Mary's car?

I can think of a few cars that you might be able to build for 50k after purchasing the car, but I can literally only think of three out west. The catch is that we would be talking the cost to duplicate these cars, and these cars have a ton of hours devoted to developing and racing them, meaning the owners might have built their cars for less money initially, but all of the gas, hotels, and parts ordered after the initial build, which were all necessary to find something that worked well, undoubtedly add up to well... a lot.

Matt

Mary's car is in that realm now since she had a complete make-over done. This discussion is addicting...why do you want it to end? :yum: j/k Youre right it does need to end, it's not like we are going to convince each other "I'm right". It's obvious we are all stubborn on what can be done for the dollar. But IMHO...most people tend to add in the cost of flashy paint jobs, interiors, stereo systems etc AND LABOR which I don't deny increases a build's cost dramatically.

shortrack
05-28-2013, 07:26 PM
But IMHO...most people tend to add in the cost of flashy paint jobs, interiors, stereo systems etc AND LABOR which I don't deny increases a build's cost dramatically.

YEP!

Save your money for go fast parts, paint it with a spray bomb.

edit - Haha....a spray bomb isnt for everyone but you go to a car show and there are rows and rows of cars with big money paint. I personally will walk right by 90% of them. Put a decent paint job on it but the endless blocking and foot thick look is certainly not a requirement of a blistering fast PT car, not even close. My friends and I have this thing where you have to pick a fav car every time we go to a car show/cruise night etc. For myself its the cars with the hard core go fast parts not the foot thick paint that gets the nod from me. My wife on the other hand.....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/05/blurryrearLarge_zps59f93b6f-1.jpg (http://s962.photobucket.com/user/shortrack/media/blurryrearLarge_zps59f93b6f.jpg.html)

Flash68
05-28-2013, 10:24 PM
ummm....Pozzi?

Shirley... you can't be serious.

srh3trinity
05-30-2013, 09:56 AM
I guess I will jump in here.It is possible to build a camaro that will run w/DSE or Brian Finch for around 50K.But you will need to be able to wheel the thing when it's finished as well/or better than Kyle or Brian.I have ridden with both of those guy's and they are Very,
very fast.In order to build a super fast winning car for under 50K you must be able to fabricate as well as you drive (So you can do all the labor your self).You will need to build a award winning suspension,mini tub install,roll cage,and every aspect of the build will need some type of atention to detail.When in comes time to build Just putting the battery in the trunk because that is where everyone else doesnt it is just not good enough.Putting the car on the scales as you build is very important.everything must be put the perfect spot so in the end you have a balanced car w/o adding weight to get there.Remember the Dry sumped LS power plant will eat up about 20K,So now you only have 30K left for everything else.Brakes,wheels tires,saftey equipment,etc.When my chevelle is finished I will be starting a 69 camaro build,out of all new sheet metal.Every part as the body go's togather will weighed, lighted in some forum or another then carefully welded in place.I am going to build everything I can from sratch as to save money.I will be buying things like DSE mini tubs,body mount kit.These type of things cant be built for what they cost to buy.Hooker headers makes a real nice set of headers that fit my C-6 sub frame perfect.They are around $600.00 w/o jethot coating.The jet hot coating on things like this is a must for long living parts.It will probably take about 8-12 months for the total build.I will let my Kevin drive at the events where we want to compete for a win. Looking at wraping the to save a little weight.The car will get A/C and a little bit of interior.My new sub frame design will let a 12in wheel fit a 1st gen. if you are willing to rework the outer fender lip a tad. We will see how things come togather,When I get around to getting started.I do already have all the 69 body panels and a ks title for the project.700HP and a total vehicle weight of 2600# less driver should be do able.


Cool, so Scott is stepping up to the plate. I wish I could say that I will get there, but I don't have the mechanical skills and I am going to have to pay for some things. This has been an interesting and largely civil debate. Did we ever answer the initial question for the first post?

badazz81z28
05-30-2013, 05:23 PM
Cool, so Scott is stepping up to the plate. I wish I could say that I will get there, but I don't have the mechanical skills and I am going to have to pay for some things. This has been an interesting and largely civil debate. Did we ever answer the initial question for the first post?

uhhh.....I don't think it was...

I know there are some fast imports out there and a few on the show...but I still say some of them were given a little slack against the $100K PT cars.

tazzz25906112
05-31-2013, 05:19 AM
Scott is an extremely rare bread of person in that he has the fabrication skills and a built in driver (his son Kevin) that is very talented.... The other side of that equation is Scott also has a shop and tools that make that car look like a cracker Jack prize in terms of cost. Can it be done yes,,, but it takes ""way to much" infrastructure and talent to logically do at the DSE Finch level for the average guy...

My focus has been 2nd gen's and with the number of them that we have built I can say it is extremely improbable for most to drift into that dream sucessfully..... Again this is at the Finch/DSE level.... You can build a Hell of a car for less money,,, just not that level of car without a budget in my opinion.....

JEFFTATE
05-31-2013, 12:32 PM
It's not whether you can compete against the next guy on "his" level.
It's about what you can enjoy and afford on "your" own level .
I've had more fun with my beat up $15,000 '69 Camaro than my Z06.

Mike Holleman
06-01-2013, 05:39 PM
You are so right Jeff. I rarely let myself compare my times to other guys times. All I need is to see my laptimes and driving skills improve to be happy. I've already seen that my car can cut fast laps(faster than I can go) when Steilow drove it at VIR. He drove two 20 minute sessions in it and set a benchmark that four years later I still have not equalled. But I have had great fun trying. When it becomes a goal to compete head to head with Brian or Kyle I may as well move on to Golf and go after Tiger. Could I build a car that could compete at their level? I think so. But not for fifty grand. Half of that amount would be engine. To me it is all about smiles per miles.
It's not whether you can compete against the next guy on "his" level.
It's about what you can enjoy and afford on "your" own level .
I've had more fun with my beat up $15,000 '69 Camaro than my Z06.

72BBSwinger
06-01-2013, 07:53 PM
You are so right Jeff. I rarely let myself compare my times to other guys times. All I need is to see my laptimes and driving skills improve to be happy. I've already seen that my car can cut fast laps(faster than I can go) when Steilow drove it at VIR. He drove two 20 minute sessions in it and set a benchmark that four years later I still have not equalled. But I have had great fun trying. When it becomes a goal to compete head to head with Brian or Kyle I may as well move on to Golf and go after Tiger. Could I build a car that could compete at their level? I think so. But not for fifty grand. Half of that amount would be engine. To me it is all about smiles per miles.

I agree 100%! I am the one my car makes the most happy. And my 2 sons too.