Lowering Spindles, Tall Ball Joints.....ayeayeaye

[Barrrf]

Ok so the following statements are what I believe to be true from roughly 4 days of searching, reading, searching, getting confused, reading some more, ect ect.

First the front suspension on my Chevelle with the exception of the sway bar is stock. SO I started researching way to upgrade. This project is pro-tinker (credit Sieg). Meaning I dont have $5k to drop on a suspension system at this point in time. So Im going to upgrade "1 piece at a time" - meaning when I see a deal, I'll snatch the part up and slap it on the car if it makes sense.

So I noticed I need new bushings, I also need to get the control arms parallel with the ground. I investigated for a couple weeks and decided the best way to do this would be to lower the rear via springs and the front via spindles. BUT THEN I DID SOME MORE RESEARCH. Not very many people think that lowering spindles are a great way to accomplish this. Instead they suggest springs. But I read that simply lowering your car isnt a good way to improve handling. Instead I need tall spindles with lowering springs. So more research later and I find 1 reputable tall spindle at a stock height and those are the ATS AFX spindles - cool how much are they? GULP. Pay to play right? Well that doesnt fit into my pro-tinker theme. So whats next?

How about tall ball joints? Lets research that for a bit. I found SEVERAL horror stories regarding broken ball joints - are they any good? HOW ELSE do you get that suspension geometry without buying 1000 dollar spindles or scary ball joints? Or are the ball joints fine, I just happen to find all the scary threads where joints broke and oil pan scraped the ground and fenders bent.

Anyways, right now, Im thinking TALL upper and lower ball joints (which will presumably lower the car 1/2") combined with 1" lowering springs cut to get an overall drop in the front of 2". This will lower my CoG and presumably get me that caster/camber sweetness? If I use the 1/2" tall ball joints (not the .9") will they work with stock a-arms? (I suppose the next thing on my list to buy is A-Arms).

[Fras]

This may be a dumb question, but is a drop spindle the same as a TALL spindle with a 2 inch drop? I bought a set of Heidt's tall drop spindles on Craigslist for $120. They guys as Ridetech said that was a good thing when combined with control arms and coil overs.

The hard part, especially when reading posts on the forums, is figuring out was is good vs what is awesome. If I could get my camaro to handle like a newer camaro, that would be my version of awesome. Even guys buying brand new corvettes are upgrading their parts to meet their version of awesomeness.

My wife has now set the standard of what my definition of awesomeness is. :). That's why I'm doing what you are doing...one part at a time. Oh, I'm also doing more house chores now too. Lol.

[exwestracer]

As you mentioned, get the front lower arms level (ball joint center to mounting bolt center). That is the best starting point for proper geometry. You can do this with $0 investment if you have some shop tools. Don't worry about the tall lower ball joint unless you really want the ride height lower than the level arm will get you. To get more up angle out of the upper arms, you can either use the taller upper ball joints (there are some good ones available from Howe, Coleman, Afco, etc.) or possibly move the cross shaft closer to the frame (the Guldstrand mod from the Camaro world). The shape of the upper arm has NOTHING to do with the geometry, although there are some other benefits to a tubular upper arm.

No reason you can't build your own upper arms (again having some shop savvy). I was doing it 20 years ago with a simple fixture and 110V MIG welder... That is NOT the place to learn how to weld, however.

How much swing arm length (and camber gain) you need is determined by the tire you are using, and the amount of suspension travel you are looking for. Once you have that pretty well dialed in, a good set of shocks is the next step...then drive it and enjoy.

[Corey R.]

The best $16.43 I ever spent is on this book. I just got finished with reading this book. Every single question you posed is answered IN DEPTH in this book. It's a good purchase to help with your decisions before you even jack your car up.

http://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Muscle-Handle-Performance/dp/1934709077/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297722973&sr=8-1

[Twentyover]

The double top secret in less expensive tall spindles was proffered by sinned on his el Camino street track car about 10years ago. Sinned used a set of Coleman tall fabricated steel spindles with removable steering arms. He had a website called onrails or vcviolator where he talked about the car. Coleman offers a custom spindle pin height for a small fee.

Six or seven years ago I think he posted here as 68dennis or 69dennis. Just looked and it seems he hasn't posted in as sinned the last couple years. Had a couple run-ins with people who thought MII was the best handling deal since canned beer. I think I generally agreed with him, so I maynot be the most objective. He might have moved over to TeamChevelle, where he's got a number of posts. May want to do some research there.

Now my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you're paying for it. I don't like tall lower balljoints, much prefer spindles. Once did a free body diagram (any other old farts remember those?) If my memory serves corretly, the lower balljoint sees like 4-5 times the load of the uppers..Just me. Don't particularly like tall uppers either, butt hey don't bug me nearly as much as tall lowers

[Quickboat]

It is the taller upper ball joint that will give you better camber and the lower spindle that will give you better stance. Lowering the car gives you a bit better center of gravity but bump steer and the like are solved by getting the front end geometry corrected. David Pozzi has been the biggest help to me through the years for the advice on the “free/cheap” upgrades, (mostly on Team Camaro). His site ( www.pozziracing.com)

Tall upper ball joint thread:
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184982

[Barrrf]

Hey, I know what a free body diagram is. Im an engineer.

I have decided to just lower the car via springs. Then later on get arms coupled with tall uppers since I have to buy a couple other things right now - like a proper brake booster since I hate manual brakes.

[Quickboat]

I would go with the taller upper ball joints for one of the biggest performance upgrades for the money aside of the Gulstrand mod IMO...I'm going with the .9" taller ones with the Gulstrand on my 67..
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pof-101-10017

[Barrrf]

I would like to find someone nice used tubular A-arms they are not using anymore and put new bushings and tall ball joints on them. However, this car isnt a Camaro so Im out of luck.

I may get UMIs upper A-Arm package with tall ball joints already on them.

[Quickboat]

I think the Chevelles suffer from similar front end geometry.. someone in the know might chime in on that.

[Barrrf]

Yes they do - which is why I want to get it corrected with tall spindles or tall ball joints (preferably spindles - but no one "gives away" the nice high quality tall spindles).

[BigMikeIndy]

Best bang on a budget would be tall drop spindle, uca, & RQ shocks. You would get most of the performance from our full kits without as big of drain on the account.

[Fras]

Best bang on a budget would be tall drop spindle, uca, & RQ shocks. You would get most of the performance from our full kits without as big of drain on the account.

How would that set up compare to a newer camaro in regards to ride quality. Would heidts tall drop spindles work with your kit?

[BigMikeIndy]

Heidts spindle should not interfere with our upper arm while still giving you most of the benefits. The shocks will definitely get you pointed in the right direction of the Camaros ride. But your springs will still be a large factor in that final ride. I forgot to mention that the MuscleBar would be very beneficial also. It will work with stock lca.

[shep]

The tall lower ball joint fits the stock lower arm. The tall upper requires a different upper or it will bind. I happen to be a fan of Dennis68 way of thinking also. In one of his post here he said that his coleman spindles set up worked very well but you could achieve 90% of his set up by going with one of the tall upper and lower ball joints from SC&C. Also the tall lower ball joint on the A-Body reduces bump steer. Another thing to remember is that removing an inch off of a spring will give you about a 2 inch drop. I went with the SC&C stage 2 plus kit using my stock spindles and plated the stock lower arm. I also am using circle track springs and adjusters so I can dial in my ride height. All that being said my car is not on the road yet so I can't tell you how well all this works from seat of the pants. Most of the tall spindles with the exception of AFX and I think the L&H also actually increase bump steer on the A-body cars due to the stock or lowered steering arm mounting. That is why there is a different steering arm for the AFX spindle specifically for the A-Body cars.