Mid year Vette as modern Road Racer?

[Blackpenquinn]

I grew up on muscle cars but moved to sports cars and exotics because I love corners. But as you guys know there is something about old muscle that you can't get from other cars.

Im currently running an Audi R8 as my track day car, but I have run everything from Porsche Boxsters, S4, TTRS, Aston Martin V8, Aston Martin Vantage V12 (my car, but factory track days. Not a car you want to abuse like that, even though it can). So far the TTRS is one of the fastest and the R8 V10 and Astons have the best feel.

I love the ability of these cars. They are blindingly fast and very composed. But I keep wondering if I can/should build a simpler car. One that will be nearly as quick, or even faster, safer with a cage, built with top parts, and more visceral in character.

I looked at a bunch of cars, including building an RCR GT40, an all aluminum Low Drag E-type coupe and of course the mid year Vettes. The corvettes seem to be the best way to go.

I started by looking at the guys that build the Grand Sports replicas (talked to a few). All seemed like great guys, but they build frames that are based on the originals. Not the stiffest way to build a frame. I'm looking for a frame that is crazy stiff like the RCR aluminum monocoque.

So, do you think it's possible to build a Mid Year Vette with a modern chassis that is very light (throw tradition out the window) race engineered, stiff as hell, fitted with C6 suspension geometry, add a Tremec 6 sp, and a LS based motor...

That would be as fast and fun as my R8 V10 on a track???

I know it would be lighter, but it would lack modern aero, traction control etc.
Would it ride like a box of hammers?

i'd sure like to try, has anyone done it?

[srh3trinity]

There is at least one company that builds a full frame for c3 vettes that has c5/6 suspension setups.

[Blackpenquinn]

I have researched a few of them including SRIII (I like their setup with C6 and viper rear end), Streetshop, The Roadster Shop and Mongoose.

Each has its advantages and drawbacks. Does anyone have track experience? Do you need to go as far as building a monocoque chassis? I know some of the Cobra guys have gone that route.

Am I crazy??

[KacyZ28]

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http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/1203phr_1963_chevy_corvette/

[oestek]

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[cornfedbill]

There are some off-the-shelf alternatives referenced above. If you are a DIY kind of guy, I think it would be interesting to begin with a Lotus 7 based setup (see "Build Your Own Sports Car for as Little as £250 and Race It!" by Ron Champion). Lotus 7's are light and stiff. The design could be modified. There are several sets of plans online and even some CAD models.

It is not high tech, but would be light, fast and reliable with a modified LS7/T56 drivetrain.

[MichaelLeeHearn]

A lot of option and choices out there, all depends on what you like and how much work you are willing to do.

[Blackpenquinn]

Thanks.

I think I've seen a number of the "better" off the shelf options, can you guys reco any others? Is one better than the other?

Is C6 better than C5? My instinct says it should be.

I'm interested in hearing from guys that go to track days, real life experience matters. Any tips on the setup?

I'm also interested in guys that might have other ideas. What should people do that they don't?

I would especially love to hear from guys that also run a modern high performance car.

[srh3trinity]

To my knowledge the c5 and c6 have interchangeable components in regards to suspension parts and there is some overlap in brake components.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

we got a sick one in theStreetfighters..

[lnirenberg]

Geezer tale--
In '76 I bought a '65 small block 4 spd convertible. I got on an empty 1 mile fairly straight road through a yet to be built industrial park to clean the plugs. At about 100mph you could feel the rear end get light. At 120 it was a bit scary but I was only going straight on a dry road. They are beautiful works of automotive art but the design of the rear actually caused significant up-force at speed as aero-dynamics were low down on the design to do list. Despite all this a nearly stock '67 L88 was reported to hit 170+ at the glen. Cool project just consider what has to be done to a stock shell to keep the tires on the ground. I have heard great thing about the SRIII frames and using C6 Z06 brakes and suspension is a very cost effective way to get the job done. They can also set up the chassis to install a C6 transaxle to get a 50/50 weight balance. Keep us posted.

[Blackpenquinn]

Thanks.

I'm doing my homework and I'd love to get a mid-year vette running with the best of them.

We see them as Hot Rods, but they could/should be an American exotic. When done right they are as cool as a Cobra, Daytona Coupe, E-type, maybe even a Bizzarini!

I'd like to create a Vette version of the fantastic Singer Porches. Look them up if you aren't familiar. They refinish them with far better materials and engineering, but they never lose sight of the original character of the cars. Just amazing. Magnus Walker does a lower tech version as well (no carbon fenders etc). the Urban Outlaw film is about him. Icon does a similar thing for 4x4's and Eagle does it for E-types.

I know I can't get the Vette to work as well as the R8 at extreme speed because as you mentioned the aero dynamics are not up to it. Add to that the narrower track etc. but I'd like to see how close I can get. I'd like to test the limits of the old school idea of a performance car. There is a visceral character, a mechanical connection that newer cars are losing. I find many of them sacrifice driver engagement for outright pace. Great for magazines and felony speed runs, but less great for those who love driving!!

I wanted to run a transaxle, but was told the car is 8-9" too short as the transaxle would not fit between the rear seats.

These two cars are my inspiration. As badass as any car I can imagine and one of the most beautiful cars America has ever designed. I prefer the road racer look concept/aesthetic to the "Hot Rod" look, though I do respect and love rods.

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2012/11/29/****-langs-reborn-1963-corvette-z06-tanker-unveiled-at-proteam-corvette/

So much about his car is just right. The flares, the stance, the lexan window, the numbers:
http://desert-motors.com/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=271&page=1

Thanks guys, and keep the thoughts coming. I'm still debating the project, but it has been a dream of mine for a while.

[shortrack]

So much about his car is just right. The flares, the stance, the lean window, the numbers:
http://desert-motors.com/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=271&page=1

That 67' ^^^^^^^ is nice.

[MichaelLeeHearn]

If you ran a regular transaxle, not the T56 with axle housing attached like the C5 and C6 corvettes used. I am talking about the style transaxle GT40's and other mid engine cars use. you would have to set it up with a torque tube like the corvettes use for a front engine layout.

The reason I say this is most regular transaxles the CV joints are not that far behind the bellhousing.

Here is a drawing of a Transaxle being built by Griffen, there are several types from G50 and G96 or G97 from Porsche and others that you can look into.
For our GT40 we are running a ST-6-M from Albins. If you were to use one in a stock C6 Corvette you would use one like ST-6rgb for an example

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As you can see from the files the location of the axles is forward of the actual gear box. So it add length to the back of the set-up. So in a corvette using this set-up it would depend more on the rear overhang of the body and if it will fit with in that area.

The C5 and C6 Corvettes use more of a hybrid set-up than a real transaxle.

Let me know if this does not make sense and i will try to explain it better.

[MichaelLeeHearn]

69992

Here is the drivetrain from a C6 corvette.


To use a regular transaxle in corvette, you would have to have a longer torque tube, but the back end of the drivetrain would be longer as this is where the gear box is.

[LS6 Tommy]

There are quite a few aftermarket chassis available for C3s. Jeff & I looked into a few for his '70 LT1 project (the Daytona Yellow one in the project updates). Very cost prohibitive for us, so we went with aftermarket suspension instead.
What type/series of racing are you contemplating? Almost all the aftermarket chassis aren't legal for many classes/series. Even if you fit into a series, the class you'd end up in as a "modified" car may put you WAY out of your league in terms of what the car would be capable of, even with the mods... Heck, a bone stock newer Z06 beat Peter Klutt's VERY fast 69 Big Block C3. That's a full on vintage race car with a mega$$ BBC engine. Granted, Klutt has to use more or less a stock chassis, but I think you an get my point...

Tommy

[Blackpenquinn]

I would just do track days and would not have to worry about a racing class. As much as I would love to,mi just don't had the time for that. This has to be a street car that I can track. If I was going straight up track car, I would likely do something as basic as a Lotus super seven or as cool as a Bac Mono or KtM crossbow.

I just want to build a car that I wished GM had made in the 60's. I have had a bunch of cars, but don't have that 60's experience, except with modern tech.

The easy route would be to go for a Porsche GT3 or a Superlegerra, but that's just money.

[LS6 Tommy]

Gotcha. Jeff would like to track day his, too, but most groups won't let him without a full halo roll bar since its a ragtop...

Tommy

[Blackpenquinn]

I think that's standard on most of the faster tracks.

I have been wondering if I should just go with a stock frame and then I "could" race it. Afterall it does not really matter how fast you ate going as long as you are having fun.

But I think I have been spoiled by driving some capable cars. As much as I would love the vintage quality, a piece of me fears I would get bored/frustrated with the car.

Would the a heavy crowd frown on a car with a non-Chevy transaxle in it? My guess is they would.

[MrQuick]

I think that's standard on most of the faster tracks.

I have been wondering if I should just go with a stock frame and then I "could" race it. Afterall it does not really matter how fast you ate going as long as you are having fun.

But I think I have been spoiled by driving some capable cars. As much as I would love the vintage quality, a piece of me fears I would get bored/frustrated with the car.

Would the a heavy crowd frown on a car with a non-Chevy transaxle in it? My guess is they would.

naw, chevy guys are not as tight tushed about crap like that. I say build it the way you want and do it to last. Im going to live vicariously through you on this build cause I always wanted to do the same with a 67.

[shortrack]

Would the a heavy crowd frown on a car with a non-Chevy transaxle in it? My guess is they would.

As long as you have a Chevy engine your good,

[uxojerry]

70016

Im building my car with similar ideas for weekend track use. I would suggest using one of the aftermarket chassis options because they work well and are mandatory in a modded C1-C3 to get decent resale. The latest and greatest is Roadster Shop but all are good. Most of these cars will weigh in at 2800-3000lbs when complete. I wouldnt bother adding a $25k transaxel or using a torque tube unless your budget is $200k+. I would suggest buying a NOM good daily driver for $30k-$35k and shipping it to the chassis builder. He will mount the body on the new chassis/drivetrain and then it is ready for paint and interior.

Im giving you my opinions based on several mistakes I made in my first build and wish you well. For my second build, Im in the planning stages of a 68 Coupe. The complete chassis, 700hp drivetrain and body mounting will run about $65K. If you want to save money, do a C3 instead of a C2. C2s are generally the most expensive of the vintage models.

Good Luck with your build!!

[MichaelLeeHearn]

http://www.sriiimotorsports.com/home.html

Here is a company building both C2 and C3 chassis using C4 rear axles or C5/C6 set up in the C2 chassis one even use the rear axle out of a viper.
All with C5 and C6 front suspension.
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[MichaelLeeHearn]

If I was not getting ready to building my RCR40 MKII right now, I would look more into this for a build. After the C3 corvettes I never cared for the bodies until the C6 and the C7 looks even better.

[MichaelLeeHearn]

For another option for a 63-64 model would be though http://www.mongoosems.com/GrandSportSpecifications.php

This is a replica of the Grand Sport Edition cars that GM built. There is several option so it once again would depend on what you want or are willing to spend.
For a turn key minus build.( Basicly rolling car ready to add your drivetrain) $69,995.00. Not a bad price with what all you get. From What I can tell the look like pretty nice cars. The are even now building a track only SCCA approved version, but no price listed on that one yet.

[Blackpenquinn]

I haven't started yet. I know I love the idea, but it has been a while since I have been in a 60's era car. I would likely have to sell the R8 to fund this build, unless I did it over many years. But I doubt I have the patience for that. Doing my homework.

Your car looks great. Let us know how she drives. I would love to hear what cars it's competitive with on a road course.

If I was going to do it, I would have to do a C2 car. That's the best looking one to my eyes. I would also have to find an angle that is unique, would need to add something to the cause.

I have come across most of those projects. The SRIII frames look fantastic, as do the Roadster Shop (their suspension components are more proprietary). I have spoken with Gary at Mongoose (nice guy, informative). They can build the car I want, though their frame is closer to a Grandsport than any of the above frames.

My original plan was to build a Grandsport.

Great ideas and this forum is awesome. People really are looking to help.

Has anyone created and posted a C2 with a transaxle? How much weight does it move back?

[uxojerry]

The custom chassis cars are designed for optimum weight distribution. The original cars had pretty good distribution from the factory. If you want to go with a transaxel, take a look at the Albins DCT 6sp. Ive talked to them many times and they are very helpful. At the time I was about to pull the trigger on an RCR SLC. If you want to build a fast supercar, take a look at the SLC.

I dont expect my C2 to smoke the latest Z06s or ZR1s around a track. I do expect it to turn a decent lap and have a lot of fun. The C2 will also be more fun at normal speeds as it is more raw and unrefined. Most supercars are in zombie-mode at highway speeds. They are more or less sleep walking their way around town and on the highway. The down side is my C2 will not be as comfortable on long trips. Make it comfortable and add luxury, your is at 3200lbs +.

There is a nice Grand Sport for sale on the Corvette Forum for less than $75k. It is worth a look if you dont want to sell the R8 in the process. Ive probably said too much and offered too much advice, lol. I simply love the subject!!

[Blackpenquinn]

No amount of advice is too much in love the subject of cars too.

I feel the same way with many of the modern cars that put outright pace ahead of driver enjoyment. It has to be a marriage of both. I have owned and driven a bunch of cars and faster is not always more fun.

My Vantage V12 is slower than the R8, but it is a more intoxicating drive. Scary at the limit and more willing to bite you, around town it's stiffer with keener steering and a roaring exhaust note. As a result its mor fun and the seat of the pants dyno says its faster, but in reality it's not. I'm not racing it, so who cares.

The R8 is the perfect supercar daily driver. High enough to go over everything, civil enough for traffic, but potent enough for mayhem.

I'm looking for a more visceral experience, and also a car that is cheaper if you "off". I have always coveted the 60's era vettes, the side pipes etc. amazing time for cars.

The costs for the project are getting huge and that's the debate I'm having. I could buy back my old V8 Vantage for the price of a decent roller. I would have a stiffer structure, transaxle, and then transform it into a track monster. But it's new, and new is tricky.

A 60's vette is a rare element.