Welding on Steering Arms?

[regal454]

I was considering making my own short Z28 steering arms when I came across the picture below. This is from the One Lap Camaro build thread. My question is can they be cut, repositioned, and rewelded? I thought they were made out of cast iron? If so, can it be welded? Anyone with insight on this?

69021

[astroracer]

I think cast steel is the norm for spindles and arms. Cast iron in that situation would be to brittle. We did a TON of cutting and welding on the spindles for the van and they turned out great! Probably stronger then the original pieces...
Added a link to the page in my build thread. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?20086-The-BAD-AST-Project-Faze-II/page11&highlight=bad+ast+welding+spindles bottom of page 11 and continued on 12.
Mark

[a67]

1st gen f-body steering arms & spindle/knuckle are forged.

Not sure about 2nd gen.

3rd gen knuckle is cast steel with a pressed in forged pin (hub spindle).

RBob.

[dontlifttoshift]

They're forged. You can weld 'em and bend 'em but use common sense. You have to understand the geometry changes you are making and very much understand what you are welding together.

I can do it and have done it but it is the last resort.

[regal454]

I am pretty confident in my welding ability, but it still may be better left for someone more experienced than myself. Luckily, I'm in NASCAR country so there's a bunch of local people more skilled than myself. While talking about this, is the center link also cast steel? I would like to raise the pick up points on my factory center link like James did on the OLC. I'm in the process of fabricating a bump steer gauge for this modification. I would like to be able to run the ATS tall spindle with a 17x9 or 17x9.5 front wheel.69022

[dontlifttoshift]

I believe they are forged as well. When hot rodders started putting camaro subs under their cars and realized the track width was too wide, many center links got cut and narrowed along with the entire subframe. Most of them were done by guys lacking in the fabrication department.

Again, just keep in mind what you are doing. Sounds like you'll be okay.

[killer69]

You need the spindle FIRST before you start modifying things, then you need the wheels. there is no Guessing on this stuff, if you move one point it changes all the other parameters, even a 1/8" can mess the whole thing up. just a heads up

[bret]

My general rule for welding on suspension components:
If you have to ask...don't.

[David Pozzi]

You can do it & then you get to worry about them bending or breaking for the rest of your life!

Stock Camaro arms are forged heat treated steel, notice they ring when you hold one & strike it. The alloy is likely 1045, something in that range. A Chevelle arm is a bit higher & would work if the center link hole was put in the right place. The fat (top in photo) stock GM center link is very soft, probably not heat treated, the smaller lower one is harder & probably heat treated better alloy like the steering arms.

[regal454]

A Chevelle arm is a bit higher & would work if the center link hole was put in the right place. The fat (top in photo) center link is very soft, probably not heat treated, the smaller lower one is harder & probably heat treated like the steering arms.

Thanks for the input David. I am considerating just using the Chevelle arms with an adjustable bumpsteer kit such as the Baer kit. I just liked the idea of shortening the arms while I was modifying them. So are all factory center links not heat treated? Which one is better for this mod?

[dontlifttoshift]

You can do it & then you get to worry about them bending or breaking for the rest of your life!


Yep, that's what happens.......I've got enough stuff to worry about. It is absolutely the last resort.

[David Pozzi]

Another possible option would be to drill out the taper & use a rod end off the top of the arm. Start with a short factory arm. The bolt head underneath will come close to an 18" rim & may need to be trimmed a bit. It would require the inboard end to be raised even more than what I did & you'd need to watch out for tie rod to idler arm clearance. I used bent inner tie rods (they come that way) from a 2nd gen Camaro for more clearance. They are different length & diameter so I had to make custom toe adjuster sleeves. You could probably bend the stock inners instead.
You could make a whole new one piece steering arm.
I think the thick center link isn't heat treated. The thin one is. Either one would work.

[Kenova]

You could make a whole new one piece steering arm.


What material would you recommend for this option? (steel/aluminum/alloy spec)

Ken

[regal454]

Another possible option would be to drill out the taper & use a rod end off the top of the arm. Start with a short factory arm. The bolt head underneath will come close to an 18" rim & may need to be trimmed a bit. It would require the inboard end to be raised even more than what I did & you'd need to watch out for tie rod to idler arm clearance.

I actually considered this the other day while I was under the car but like you said the inner tie rod would have to be raised too much. I believe this would cause interference with my headers. I believe my plan for now will be the Chevelle steering arms on the ATS tall spindles. I'm planning on using rod end for the outer tie rods so they can be shimmed as needed. Once I get everything mocked up I can determine how much I'll need to raise my inner tie rods. I noticed that the inner tie rod ends were also moved in when they were raised on the OLC. I am also goin to do the same to increase the tie rod radius asm much as I can (as much as my Holley oil pan will allow).

[Joe_Rocket]

Is it possible to just use the tru turn center link bar and steering arms, but relocate the tru turn center link bar's lower holes upwards to essentially remove the bump steer correction already designed into the ATS spindle?

[David Pozzi]

What material would you recommend for this option? (steel/aluminum/alloy spec)

Ken

I'd ask about using 1045 steel. Around here, they call it "plow steel" & it's used a lot in farming for tillage tools for cultivating crops. It is very weldable. There is a lot to knowing how to weld properly. I've spent days on end welding broken farm ripper shanks back together, they are 1"X 3" 1045 plow steel bar stock. The first ones I did broke when the tractor hit buried rocks. I learned to weld them strong enough so if they did break, they would break somewhere else if they hit a big rock, mainly increasing the V chamfer angle did it. There's nothing like having your welds stress tested like this.

The recommendation of my local steel sales shop guy was to make steering arms from mild steel, which was a red flag for me, they would bend or break! Be careful who you take advice from. This guy was no engineer.

[David Pozzi]

I actually considered this the other day while I was under the car but like you said the inner tie rod would have to be raised too much. I believe this would cause interference with my headers. I believe my plan for now will be the Chevelle steering arms on the ATS tall spindles. I'm planning on using rod end for the outer tie rods so they can be shimmed as needed. Once I get everything mocked up I can determine how much I'll need to raise my inner tie rods. I noticed that the inner tie rod ends were also moved in when they were raised on the OLC. I am also goin to do the same to increase the tie rod radius asm much as I can (as much as my Holley oil pan will allow).

When I moved the inner hole inward, the bump steer curve flattened out nicely. With it raised but not moved in, it had ok bump steer near ride height but went off at higher bump & rebound. I think I raised it 1", & moved it inboard 1.25" the outer was raised .5" & we used a helm joint up against the bottom of the arm. The stock tie rod pivot point is around 1/8" lower than the helm joint. These arms already had the tapers drilled out for a straight bolt. If you are going to do this, drill it undersized & ream the holes to fit the bolt snugly.

[Twentyover]

......

The recommendation of my local steel sales shop guy was to make steering arms from mild steel, which was a red flag for me, they would bend or break! Be careful who you take advice from. This guy was no engineer.


I'm not sure I share your concern. They might bend, but mild steel (1018-1020) is very ductile. It will bend ALOT before it breaks. If there's a real concern about yield, increase the moment area. Doubling thickness in the direction of bending reduces stress 8X.

Among other things he's reported to have said, Colin Chapman called mild steel 'the sportsman's friend' when asked to contrast mild carbon steel with Chrom-Moly alloys.

[67SSDan]

Since those stupid steering arms are the one thing in the way of using wider tires up front, why has no one manufacturered a replacement that sits farther inward? I'm dealing with this right now myself... So annoying. Seems so simple, yet no one has a solid solution that I've found.

[David Pozzi]

Since those stupid steering arms are the one thing in the way of using wider tires up front, why has no one manufacturered a replacement that sits farther inward? I'm dealing with this right now myself... So annoying. Seems so simple, yet no one has a solid solution that I've found.

Moving the tie rod ends inward would increase Ackerman steering correction, probably beyond 100%.

[bret]

Since those stupid steering arms are the one thing in the way of using wider tires up front, why has no one manufacturered a replacement that sits farther inward? I'm dealing with this right now myself... So annoying. Seems so simple, yet no one has a solid solution that I've found.

http://www.ridetech.com/store/tru-turn/
As discussed before, you cannot just change the steering arms, you must integrate the entire steering and suspension system. We now have several thousand of these in use.

[67SSDan]

Ah sweet Bret, I was just thinking I should look in your website to see if you guys had done anything with that. I've got some specific questions I'm going to DM you with. Thanks a TON!!

Dan

[David Pozzi]

The Tru-Turn is the best solution for a stock subframe car, I would use all their stuff including their spindle, to make it work properly.
David