Fuel tank construction

[SShep71]

So I dont feel like spending 1300.00 on a gas tank from ricks. I have decided to make my own. Im gonna see how it stands up to a ricks tank. Good thing I learned about this stuff in school!. Anyone out there wann help out a bit and get me some basic dimensions? I dont exactly have access to a car at all right now. Just a length/width/height of their 68-72 A body tank? I will let autocad do the rest. If anyone has any measurements for the ring that the sending unit seals against that would be a big help as well.


Pwetty pwetty pwease!

[T_Raven]

I've been wanting to make one myself. A few hundred dollars for a 5th gen or CTS-V fuel pump and $100 sheet of stainless is a lot cheaper than buying one.

[SShep71]

I priced everything out that I (you) (anyone) would need to build the tank. The zo6 pump/rings/o-ring is 300.00 the 18 gauge 304 stainless sheet is 230.00 online, misc parts 100.00 so for 630.00 you can build your own stainless tank with baffles, trapdoors, and anything else you want. If you can get the pump seperate, and do the machine work on the rings you can save some cash. If you have a good connection for the stainless you can save somemore there. For me tanks.com and ricks are out of the question which means I have to make my own stuff. There are several different pumps out there so you can save some more cash that way as well. It all comes down to what you can do vs what you can spend. Besides im a sticker for making my own stuff! When I finish the auto cad drawing ill post it.

[T_Raven]

Yeah I like making stuff to make it, saving money is a bonus lol. I have a Rick's tank for my 69, I think I paid $1200 but it's the old style, not the Vapor works tank. A tank is just such an easy thing to make for someone that can fabricate, it's hard to justify $1500 to buy a tank when I have $8000 worth of welding equipment. Gotta put that stuff to use to justify having it lol. I never priced a sheet of stainless. $230 is more than I would've expected but still not bad.

The thing I wasn't sure about was how to secure the pump to the tank. Do you have a source for the tank part of the lock ring?

[69stang]

My SS tank modeled
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Tacked up and test fitting
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Its made from 18 ga. 304SS they were throwing in the scrap bin at work (previous employer). I'm having a friend tig it up for me. I did some shopping on ebay for a 6 x 10 fuel cell plate and fill valves (changing the top for 2 fill ports). I've got somewhere around $250 into it so far including 2 aircraft fuel caps & receptacles.

[Samckitt]

If I could only TIG weld, and knew someone with a roller to make the nice corners. I know someone with a CNC plasma to cut it out.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/12/fuel_tank1_zpsff1fbda3-1.jpg

With the CAD software I have, I can even unfold it to make the flat pattern.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[CarlC]

Nice work Scot.

If those are remote pickup brackets in the corners you may want to consider removing one of the mounting points on the bottom of the tank. That makes the bracket like a spring. Just slide the pickup under the horizontal tab, let it center on the tab hole, and let the spring force from the tab hold the pickup in position. It makes assembly and maintenance a whole lot easier. The bracket would look something like this but with a hole in the top horizontal to receive the pickup.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Samckitt]

Nice work Scot.

If those are remote pickup brackets in the corners you may want to consider removing one of the mounting points on the bottom of the tank. That makes the bracket like a spring. Just slide the pickup under the horizontal tab, let it center on the tab hole, and let the spring force from the tab hold the pickup in position. It makes assembly and maintenance a whole lot easier.

Good idea, thanks.

[SShep71]

I have a source for that ring, there is a place online that sells the pump/ring/o-ring and hardware for 315.00 Ill put the link up later. I made a ton of progress on my Autocad drawing of the tank parts. Its 38" x 19 3/8 x 7.5 they are the dimensions from a 72 Nova tank. I almost forgot about my watts link kit that a stock A body tank wont fit. The design has baffles, and a recess for the pump, and a sump.. Im gonna finish off the drawings tommorw and send them to get quoted for water jetting or laser cutting. Anyone know anyone out there with reasonable prices for one off items. last time I got prices quoted for water jetting I almost pissed my pants then I got the "well just do 200 of them and sell the rest to recoup your expenses" Nice try! If the price isnt that bad for materials and work ill post everything up. If you want teh autocad drawings msg me and I will send them to you.

[RobNoLimit]

One comment on BAFFLES. Remember that the baffle has two purposes. One is to strengthen the tank, and the other is to stop the fuel for sliding around in the tank. Fuel, at appx 7 lbs per gallon can act just like a hammer, and distort the tank shell in extreme conditions (like an auto-x coarse) Baffles should be almost solid. Small openings at the bottom, and larger, for air travel during filling, at the top. Really cool looking baffles that are cut out to look like a wing spar, are cool looking, but not much use as a baffle.

[T_Raven]

Baffles are one thing I've wanted to learn more about. Also remote pick ups. Are the ones in the Vaporworx tanks a stock GM piece?

[T_Raven]

I hadn't seen Vaporworx's website until just now. I just read most of it and it cleared up how the remote pick ups work. I see they sell their "retro worx" kit which would supply the mounting ring, and also a fuel pressure regulator adapter. Their site says they are apparently using 5th gen fuel pump modules with 4th gen pressure regulators.

[Samckitt]

Walbro makes the pickups.

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pickups.html

[dontlifttoshift]

This is a cool thread so I will put up the only useful knowledge I have about gas tanks.

Length x width x height x .004329 = gallons......it's almost sad that I didn't have to look that up.

Shep, your tank comes in at just under 24 gallons, that's huge!

[Samckitt]

Good to know Donny. I have to model it in 3D & do an analysis on the body to figure volume. If it wasn't contoured shape would be easier?.

[SShep71]

I was in a hurry last night and put the wrong dimensions up, (38 x 19 3/8 x 7 3/8). I factored in the relief for the pump on top, the angles cut into the corners for stability, the volume lost due to the mass of the pump, the actual working capacity of the tank less than 95% (a general rule I learned at school), and I came up with about 21 gal. I am looking at ctuuting it down some, but the 68-72 A bodys came with a 20 gal tank. I still have some work to do on the sheet drawings. The baffles are going to be structural and functional, I am looking at using 16gauge .060 304. I havent done the elasticity "Y" calculations yet but I am pretty sure in the short distances the .060 when welded properly will do a great job of retaining structural rigidity and controlling fluid flow. One thing I am considering that I havent seen on any tanks yet are removable access covers above the areas where the corner pickups are to allow for maintence. Done properly I dont see any issues putting them in.

http://www.retrofuel.com/4.html

This is the site that has the rings and pumps in a package. I dont like the fact that they are 11 gauge, I am gonna have to think about that for a little. I emailed the site for dimensions for the ring, I am trying to find a print, or drawing for the ring that will allow me to draw and machine my own. Anyone out there have anything. Hopefull I can get a set of drawings and parts so someone with the willingness can put their own tank together. Maybe even take my drawings and put a tank together so they can trouble shoot problems and save me time when I get back to the states ...eehhhhh ...ehhhh.. .any takers?

Ohh ROBNOLIIMIT.... I may be making my way up to your shop when I get back, i am gonna have a bunch of time in between this deployment and my next contract that needs filled with epicness. I am right in Temecula now!

[T_Raven]

A ring with studs like that would be fairly easy to make. I'm seeing used 5th gen pumps on ebay for around $150. Supposedly low mileage units that were upgraded for forced induction applications.

The question there would be if you can get by with the 5th gen pressure regulator. Vaporworx site explains that they use a 4th gen regulator.

[CarlC]

Changing the regulator to a 58psi unit is needed unless the PWM controller is used.

I sell the mounting rings separately along with wiring harnesses, regulators, etc. If interested send me a PM and work something up for you guys.

[SShep71]

Thats what I had figured, Carl i sent you a PM. Raven I looked and those pumps arent bad for the $$. its half the cost of the ones I found new. I am concerned about longevity espically since its a pump. I am gonna have to pick up a better TIG when I get back now. With ramp up/down and pulse in addition to the other options. More $$ I dont wanna spend. Ill put it to good use i guess. I am going to have to use a sump because of the recess for the pump IOT achieve the 7 3/8 reccomended depth of the tank. That bring my tank to 9 3/8 at the tallest, I am concerned that i may hang too low on the car now.

[T_Raven]

Changing the regulator to a 58psi unit is needed unless the PWM controller is used.

I sell the mounting rings separately along with wiring harnesses, regulators, etc. If interested send me a PM and work something up for you guys.

I'm very impressed with the info on your site. Supplying that much info isn't something a product maker has to do to sell their product but it makes me respect them and want to give them my money lol. If I end up making a quality tank for my 67, I'll definitely buy what I can from you guys. If I can't make a good enough tank, I'll just have to buy the whole thing from you guys lol.

[CarlC]

Thanks Traven.

I spent months engineering and testing the systems in 2009-10 before ever announcing their availability. There are parts out there that have recently come out that look AMAZINGLY like my recessed fuel tray that was built in 2009. Ditto with some other components. There are also some real engineering concerns in some of the other designs that are not addressed or even questioned by most users.

The information shared on http://www.vaporworx.com I believe is necessary in order to help understand the advantages and complexities of the modern fuel module and EFI requirements. There are $millons spent in GM R&D to make these things work. A Gen5 fuel module new is about $220. Yes it's double what a Walbro 255 is, but the overall capability of the GM fuel module is outstanding. It's really in a different universe. It also makes fabrication easier and fuel delivery better. Replacement parts are as close as your dealer. So the initial outlay of cash may be higher, but the overall cost in time and money makes it about even in the end but with a much more capable fuel delivery system.

There is another PWM system out there similar to mine. I've tested it as well. Let's just say that the results from the lab testing were such that there was no way I would put it in my car for further testing. I know what they had to do to make theirs compatible with a very wide variety of pumps. When one does that capability must be sacrificed, and the sacrifices made, IMO, make them incompatible with what our needs are. I took the other approach by narrowly focusing on the modules that work in our cars and then designed the control systems to make them work properly.

For used Gen5 pumps go to camaro5.com. I've bought three from there to use as test mules and they have been just fine. Usually they can be had for about $85 shipped.

[SShep71]

I got the quote to have the plates cut for the tank. 378.00 for the materials and the actual cut plates. Thats laser cut plates with the proper bends in them with a +/- .005 tolerance on dimension and +/- 1/16 on the bends. If I were to buy a used pump, and the ring kit and a filler tube the total cost for materials would be appx 650.00 for a baffled stainless tank with a LS3 pump. Im sure there will be a few changes but its a great starting point. The labor for me to weld it is free (AWESOME). I am pretty happy so far, I will see how things change. Now all I have to do is what untill I get back to atually make it happen. If anyone wants prints or contacts or sources for parts let me know I have a pretty good list. The tank is modeled after a 72 Nova tank, but It will fit in an A-body as well (thats what its going in) I will post updates as things change

[T_Raven]

Have you checked out the retroworx kit? I don't know what they charge for it, but you could use a factory lock ring and it has the fuel pressure regulator adapter. Their site explains why you need a 4th gen regulator.

[CarlC]

The full RetroWorx kit which as the pre-bent recessed tray, mounting ring, cam locking ring, fuel pressure regulator adapter, and fuel line support kit, is $259.

For Shep's the fuel requirement is such that a Gen5 LS3 pump won't work. He's going to need a CTS-V fuel module, which is a different monster. I sell these for $440. The proper PWM controller is $500.

There's no free lunch in modern fuel systems.

[acegto]

I got the quote to have the plates cut for the tank. 378.00 for the materials and the actual cut plates. Thats laser cut plates with the proper bends in them with a +/- .005 tolerance on dimension and +/- 1/16 on the bends. If I were to buy a used pump, and the ring kit and a filler tube the total cost for materials would be appx 650.00 for a baffled stainless tank with a LS3 pump. Im sure there will be a few changes but its a great starting point. The labor for me to weld it is free (AWESOME). I am pretty happy so far, I will see how things change. Now all I have to do is what untill I get back to atually make it happen. If anyone wants prints or contacts or sources for parts let me know I have a pretty good list. The tank is modeled after a 72 Nova tank, but It will fit in an A-body as well (thats what its going in) I will post updates as things change

Well, if you're going to go forward with it i'll be in line for a tank and pump. Pm me if you need anything on my end.

[T_Raven]

The full RetroWorx kit which as the pre-bent recessed tray, mounting ring, cam locking ring, fuel pressure regulator adapter, and fuel line support kit, is $259.

For Shep's the fuel requirement is such that a Gen5 LS3 pump won't work. He's going to need a CTS-V fuel module, which is a different monster. I sell these for $440. The proper PWM controller is $500.

There's no free lunch in modern fuel systems.

How does the CTS-V module differ from the 5th gen?

[CarlC]

http://www.vaporworx.com/speed_control_systems.htm

[SShep71]

Damn you Pulse Width Modulation! Carl a few questions. Well first IOT to properly fuel the engine I planned on running what would the cost be for all the necessary parts i.e. pump,requlator,corner pick ups, etc? Would a fuel cooler be effective at helping to reduce fuel temps? I have looked at running aftermarket pumps but I am unsure if they will get the job done. Thanks for the help!

[exwestracer]

Another way to look at Donny's volume equation is 1 gallon = 231 Cu in. When I'm building a cell, I just multiply out the dimensions and divide by 231 to get gallon capacity.

You guys are lucky...my race cars have to have rubber bladders inside the cells, and I haven't seen anything on making those at home! Expensive? How about $2500 for a custom rubber bag, and then you STILL get to make an Alum. can to go around it.

[CarlC]

Those get pretty spendy in a hurry Ray. I'm working on one now where the module reservoir section is mounted in the bladder but all bulkheads go through a standard access plate.

Shep, the pressure regulator in the CTS-V module has too high a pressure setting for us. By the time you get done with external regulators, coolers, hoses, fittings, etc. the PWM starts to make sense. The same basic setup is used in Steilow's Mayhem but controls twin ZL1 fuel modules.

It was the performance of the aftermarket pumps that got me in to this silly business. None of them did everything that modern fuel modules and control systems can do. EFI is completely unforgiving concerning fuel delivery. One can get away with murder using a carburettor, but it too has drawbacks.

[SShep71]

Ray I know a little about that, I made one in school for the school race truck. It was a pain in the ass. I went to school at LCCC in nanticoke, PA for motorsports, we had to do all this stuff for our degree. I almost went to Wyotech out there instead. That was years ago!

Carl talking to you is like talking to my Krav Maga instructor. I know I need, and want to hear what he says, but I know what he tells me to do is gonna cost me alot of time and pain! haha So if I went through you for a proper pump and controller what would the cost be. I need a price for everything I need, and for the corner pickups. If you dont want to post it on here can you PM me a price. I know somepeople want to keep stuff on the DL. I got one or two emails about guys interested in the tank. If they actually want everything i will be sure to send em to you!

[SShep71]

I am getting pretty close to being done with the tank drawings. This is a quick screenshot of what I have so far. I will post the finished drawing set as soon as I get it done. The few of you that asked for it if you send me your email I will send it to you

[chevelletiger]

Prints,contacts,parts sources.pm sent!

[CarlC]

What are the two outboard/top access panels for?

[SShep71]

I put them there so there can be easy access to the corner pickups. I want to use yours but the way they wount will not work for the baffle style I went with. I havent added the provisions for holding the corner pickups in place to the drawing yet. I still need to do somemore additions to the drawing. Were you ever able to get me a total price for all of the pump realated parts?

[CarlC]

Sorry on the costs, thought I did that. Later tonight....

If you,re running the fuel module no other baffling is needed. The vertical bulkheads are there for strength under the straps. A large hole can added to the bulkhead for a hand to fit through. A small Z-shaped bracket can be tack welded to the tank bottom to hod the pickup. The spring of the Z will hold the pickup in place and requires no tools for installation or future servicing

[SShep71]

No worries, I know the bulkheads are for strength but the added control of fuel from freely moving from side to side is a plus. I intend for the tank design to be multipurpose, that way someone can take the design and build it for a carborated setup or a non module type of pump i.e. aeromotive, walboro, etc. The extra cost and weight of the additional access ports on top is very minimal. My intent for this other than I want my own fuel system is that I want others that have the ability to have access to the drawings. It turns out that my down time over here is good for autocad drawings plus for some reason autocad is a little escape for me, its almost theraputic. haha I want to draw my own watts link but I cannot get ahold of drawings or dimensions to even begin. My Fays2 is stuffed under the car at paint right now. I was planning on using the Z-shaped braket to hold the corner pickups in place. Right now I have a clamp style mounting ring setup for the module, I am not a fan of the OEW style lock rings.

[parsonsj]

Be sure and weld in a vent bung somewhere on the top surface.

[SShep71]

John there are going to be a few different bungs welded on. I just cant decide where to place them, I was going to wait until I had the tank mocked up and in place before I did any drilling and welding. I am going to have to hold of unless you have a suggestion that has worked in the past for placement.

[parsonsj]

Sure, that sounds ok. One thing that works for Rick's Tanks is to mount the vent bung on the front face of the tank (the differential side) with a tube on the inside that goes above the fuel "water-line". If you do something like that, you'll need to plan that now.

On the other hand, if you are going to vent the tank from the top, then you can do that last -- though be cognizant that welding the bung to unsupported sheetmetal will likely lead to some waviness in the sheetmetal.

[SShep71]

The drawing set is complete for this go around. It is going to be a 6 drawing set including a 3D rendering, sheet sets, billet drawings w/ 3D Isometric views for detail. The contact sheet will follow. It will be in .DXF and .DWG format. I will send it all out tomorrow night. There are a few details that are on you to add like bung placement and filler tube location. Everything else is there. The big test is going to be who is going to build the tank first and any revisions that are required. Anyone else want in on the share just let me know.

[go-fish]

Shep, if there is anything back here in SD just let me know.

[chevelletiger]

Thanks you shep.when are you coming back to the west coast?i would be cool to meet up at del mar g.g. This yr.phil

[Toadman]

Busy at work right now, so I can't say much, but here's my tank that I made from 16 ga. stainless a couple years ago. Helps if you own a sheet metal fab shop! :twothumbs
699026990369904

[chevelletiger]

Very nice todd.yes the right tools make or break the end result of a project.todds tanks hmm?

[SShep71]

Damn todd that looks pretty good, is that an A-body tank? Where did you get the dimensions for the module mounting ring? I went off info provided but I am weary about the accuracy..on that note...PHIL! You have an email. The files are in .DWG format, do you want them in a different format? I was going to send .DXF as well but I am having internet issues. Let me know what ya think

[chevelletiger]

Shep,i was not able to open the files you sent me on my computer.i seemed i needed autocad to open it?maybe im doing something wrong?thank you.phil.

[SShep71]

Phil, what program are you running on your computer? What format do you use, I will send you the DXF files but that will not allow you to view 3D images.

[Coburn_Performance]

Here's the tank I built for my current project. I had the local tin basher knock me out the basic shape of the tank (it's 10 ga 6061 Al) and then I formed the end caps and baffles to fit. Before everyone freaks out about using aluminum in this application, it's 10 ga, and I've put a rock shield on the front. It's safe and strong as heck (replacing a 20 ga steel unit).

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/11/IMG2012022500106-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/IMG2012022500103-1.jpg

Here's the rock shield installed. Following the rest of this tank design, it's 14 gauge - bull strong.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/IMG2012022600112-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/IMG2012022600116-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/01/IMG2012022800123-1.jpg

[SShep71]

I dont see any problems with that setup. I am not a fan of Al tanks but that's a personal preference. The additional rock shield is good additional protection, everything helps. You made a good decision by going with 6061. How many gallons is that thing? It looks like a beast

[Coburn_Performance]

It's about 50 liters in capacity - which will extend my cruise range to something more reasonable than the old 40 l tank. It's fully internally baffled and has provision for fuel injection. All upgrades over the old tank. If I was doing it again, I'd do it out of stainless steel for sure. But for a first effort, I'm happy. It's also getting a coat of bed liner before installed for good.


I dont see any problems with that setup. I am not a fan of Al tanks but that's a personal preference. The additional rock shield is good additional protection, everything helps. You made a good decision by going with 6061. How many gallons is that thing? It looks like a beast

[SShep71]

What about adding a full bottom rock pan instead of bed liner. Why hide all of that great work with rubberness.

[Coburn_Performance]

Extra safety factor. It's not a hot rod, so there won't be mirrors under it at shows. I've analyzed many fuel tanks on this model of car and it's the leading edge that gets hammered - so that's where I put the protection, form following function and all that stuff.

Back on topic, has anyone done the calculations (I didn't know where to start) for sizing the holes through the baffles? I've seen many baffled tank designs where the ports look way too large to stop fuel sloshing around. In my tank, I decided that given the size of my engine (fuel consumption) and the volume of the pick up that cutting the corners (only) of the baffles (there are 2) to allow 1" square per hole would be more than enough to allow the tank to supply fuel to the pickup no matter what the road/track conditions would be (sure it wouldn't work if I was driving counter-clockwise on a high banked oval with an empty tank...but that's not likely to happen). There's no going back now - but for reference for someone building a tank, is there another way to work this out?


What about adding a full bottom rock pan instead of bed liner. Why hide all of that great work with rubberness.

[SShep71]

The baffles wont stop fuel transfer from one compartment to the other. All of the baffles I have seen are not designed to stop fluid transfer but are designed to slow transfer. You would have to add trapdoors similiar to the way that circle track oil pans are designed to stop the fuel from moving compartment to compartment. It all comes down to time, its the time spent and the force exerted on the fluid that determines the flow through the holes. You can have a small hole and as long as the force and time are long enough all of the fluid will flow from one side to the other until the compartment is full. So if you had really small holes and made a right turn for long enough all of the fuel will wind up on the left side. The bulkheads are multipurpose, they act as verticle reinforcements for the tank where it is compressed by the mounting straps and they allow fuel control. There is no way to properly determine a hole size, there are too many unknown variables and variables with changing parameters. As long as the tank remains in a level plain and the car does not accelerate or decelerate the holes would need to match the maximum working volume of the pump. As the tank rolls and the car accelerates/decelerates the hydraulic pressure of the fuel acting on itself will change. It comes down to hydraulic engineering. There really is no simple answer to this one! As long as the total cross section of all of the holes are not smaller in size than the cross section of the pump pickup tube you will be fine.

[SShep71]

BTW....does anyone have dimensions for a stock GM A-body tank? I need the physical dimensions of the tank and I need the centerline spacing between the tank mounting brace on the trunk underside so I can accurately determine the proper location for the bulkheads! The same goes for first/second gen camaros, I want to draw up a sheet set for a camaro tank. THANKS!

[Toadman]

Mine is a narrowed F-body tank, so I have room to do a minitub in the future. Had to make a spacer to fill up the step in my trunk. I already had the fuel pump and sender in hand to use for templates before cutting/drilling any holes for them. As for the holes in my baffles, I just took a wild guess at the size. I'm sure liquid moves freely through them. I did weld some stainless steel hinges over the holes going to the sump to act as gates. Has always worked 100% and only cost me the price of the pump & sender, so I'm pleased!!

Couple of tips: I sloshed some Eastwood fuel tank sealer around the bottom before sealing it up to to make sure there are no leaks, and I had to go with a boat-type sending unit 'cause I didn't have room for an arm-type sender to work with the baffles.

[liquidh8]

Nice read, bumping the thread, curious if you ever got the tank built. I had though about doing one for my G-body wagon in the future.