need some input on a good manual braking system

[CTSV]

ok i am redoing my entire build on my Mustang and i currently have a Hydratech unit which stops AWESOME with my 4 wheel disc, it actually saved me the other day for totally wrecking my car. I honestly really like the response and bite with the Hydratech system it really feels like a german sports car.

my new build i have plans to install a modular coyote from edelbrock with their E force blower. if any of you guys know the coyote install isnt so simple on Mustangs and i am doubtful i can retain my Hydratech with the limited clearances and from photos ive come across and shops i spoke with

I was considering going Manual brakes from Wilwood or Baer something nice like 6 piston fronts and rears with 15 inch rotors but i have never driven a car with a high performance manual brake system. I know having the right parts matched together is the key to making this work.

the only cars that i ever owned were original cars from the 50's and 60's with manual drums or front disc and a single bowl master cylinder and they stopped horrible.

What can you guys tell me who have a properly packaged Manual brake system versus a power system or Hydratech?

[Zoomin]

I had a conversation with Justin at Scott's Hot Rods about this very subject. Wilwood offers a range of manual master cylinders that will allow you to get the right match. Interestingly, Justin actually recommends it over a power set up.

His number is 805-485-0382

[MichaelLeeHearn]

I have used both Wilwood and Tilton products in the past. Just have to figure out the right sized master cylinders you need. Only issue I have come across is with Wilwoods remote master cylinders leaking, but that is easy to deal with.

[Motorcitydak]

I am going to be running a Tilton pedal setup for the brakes and clutch. It is very well made and compact. I went with the floor mounted setup. You can have a firewall mounted one as well and choose if you want the master cyl's in the engine compartment or reverse mount with them under the dash. Plus you can have a remotely adjustable balance bar so you can change the front and rear bias

[funcars]

I have a dual master balance bar set up and it works great. The key is to get the master sizes and pedal ratio correct so the balance between effort and pedal travel is the best compromise. It's nicer too in that a true balance set up does not have a knee in the rear brake curve like you get with a proportioning valve and there is very fine adjustability of front to rear balance.

[dontlifttoshift]

I believe you have that backwards. The "knee" is exactly why a prop valve is better than a balance bar on the street. With a prop valve you will get higher pressure to the rear brakes in relation to the front with light pedal stopping, like normal street stopping. With a balance bar, because there is no knee and it is linear, you will virtually no rear brakes at light pedal pressures, which means the fronts are doing all the work.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/proportioning-valves

[Antti66ht]

From my experience, you need to go bigger than 1" on wilwood masters (single). I had 1" with 4-piston wilwood rear and 4-piston kelsey-Hayes fronts and it was no good. The change to 1 1/8" made a significant difference to pedal travel. With 1" it as almost bottoming out. The model I´m using is with integrated aluminum reserv tank.

Right now I am installing B7 RS4 front brakes to my Mustang, lets see if 1 1/8" will still work...

[exwestracer]

From my experience, you need to go bigger than 1" on wilwood masters (single). I had 1" with 4-piston wilwood rear and 4-piston kelsey-Hayes fronts and it was no good. The change to 1 1/8" made a significant difference to pedal travel. With 1" it as almost bottoming out. The model I´m using is with integrated aluminum reserv tank.

Right now I am installing B7 RS4 front brakes to my Mustang, lets see if 1 1/8" will still work...

Were you talking about the M/C bottoming out, or the pedal hitting the floor? What piston size on those calipers? We've run 1 5/8" or 1 3/4" 4 piston Superlites with Wilwood 7/8" masters for (literally) 20 years and never had that problem (with a 5.5:1 pedal). You may have too much pedal ratio. The smaller M/C bore will give a much more progressive "bite" to the brakes. I've found less lock-up and better driver feel with the smaller bore... You are right, the pedal does travel further.

[Antti66ht]

Well, in my case the pedal bottoming out. Not really necessary a problem on a other model than Mustang. The car is originally with manual brakes, so the pedal ratio is lower. The pedal started feeling soft before bottoming, but there might have been some air also in the system... Do not remember my piston sizes and I´m 10000 km from my garage for the next 6,5 months... They were -66 original 4-piston calibers and rear is wolwood dynalite 4-piston kit, the one with drum style e-brake.

[funcars]

for dontlift - most passenger car dual masters have the same diameter bores for both front and rear. A single master and prop valve is easier to implement simple than separate masters/balance bar, but does not have any inherent advantage on the street. A proportiioning valve limits the rear at a specific pressure (hopefully before they lock up) and keeps it there regardless of how much more pressure you give to the fronts - so balance front to rear continues to diverge more and more as you get closer to threshold braking. With a balance bar the ratio of front to rear pressures stays the same regardless of how much pressure you apply to the pedal and you get a consistent linear response. You get a non-linear response with prop valve, but as long as you set up your brakes not to lock the rears before the fronts it won't matter on the street.

[a67]

The reason a proportioning valve is non-linear is that as more & more braking is applied, more & more vehicle weight is transferred to the front. So having a knee in the pressure curve is required to prevent rear brake lock up during times of heavy braking.

This is important on a street car, and not as important on a race car. As a race car is usually set up such that there isn't much weight transfer during braking.

Bob.

[dontlifttoshift]

Bob, since these cars see time at both venues we can't really look at one or the other independently. I agree that on a race car, you are on the brakes or you are not and a balance bar works very well there. Also on a race car, brake bias will need to be adjusted from what should be perfect to suit drivers preference or track conditions.



for dontlift - most passenger car dual masters have the same diameter bores for both front and rear. A single master and prop valve is easier to implement simple than separate masters/balance bar, but does not have any inherent advantage on the street. A proportiioning valve limits the rear at a specific pressure (hopefully before they lock up) and keeps it there regardless of how much more pressure you give to the fronts - so balance front to rear continues to diverge more and more as you get closer to threshold braking. With a balance bar the ratio of front to rear pressures stays the same regardless of how much pressure you apply to the pedal and you get a consistent linear response. You get a non-linear response with prop valve, but as long as you set up your brakes not to lock the rears before the fronts it won't matter on the street.

So what you are saying is the proportioning valve reaches a pressure and then will not build pressure after that? I disagree with that.

My understanding is that after it reaches the knee(which is between 300 to 500 psi), pressure is reduced by a percentage and that it is linear after the knee point. With a wilwood prop valve a max reduction of 57% is attainable. With a balance bar you can attain perfect brake bias at a given speed and given pedal input pressure and that is great on a race car. On a street car that same setup will give you very little rear brake pressure on light pedal application, which is where most street braking is done. This will result in increased front brake wear and actually require more pedal input because 2 brakes can't scrub off speed as well as 4 can. That is why the knee is important, it allows rear brake pressure to ramp up quicker and then break off at the knee to keep the rear brakes involved in slowing down the car in light pedal applications.

That's my theory anyways. Where's Tobin?

So it is not a total hijack, I prefer manual brakes. The problem is that you are in love with highly assisted braking already. To regress back to manual brakes, even perfectly setup, you may not be happy with the pedal feel. Thanks to late model cars people get some different ideas about what pedal input should equate to in stopping. A perfect manual brake setup will never "feel" like your CTSV, ever. It can work very well, however, and solve some problems under the hood.

The DSE test car has a vacuum booster on it and it packaged quite well with the coyote but it has not turned up in the catalog yet. The booster was something oem but I don't recall what it was, or if that information was ever mentioned to me.

[MonzaRacer]

I have had both maual and vacuum brakes on my Monzas in past. Vacuum with good source works fine and makes it easy to stop for limit strength people BUT I had manual brakes on my yellow on and with S10 brakes front(spindle swap, Raybestos Brute Stop pads, autozone rear shoes with manual S10 wheel cylinders) it out stopped a C5 Z06 Vette at 80mph, but then I was lighter also. BUT a 70s car with 80s brakes DID out stop a 2000/2001 Vette with best brakes GM had except for the Grand Sport setup,,,and he had huge tires over mine.
My next incarnation of a 77 Monza will have 325mm Corvette brakes front and either Vette 330mm in back or S10 or mix of them. and Ill keep the Monza Master Cylinder and add in an adjustable prop valve.
Properly adjusted systems, regardless of the design or parts used, will stop regardless of types.
The reason for multiple systems are to fit multiple cars built multiple ways. No ONE system fits everyone, limit a bunch of people to ONE system and you limit a set of cars too RULES.
Fun thing is Pro-touring has NO RULES unless you try to follow some, roll bar, roll cage, Tiger Cage, what suits your use, is YOUR rule.
So search out what works and what doesnt. what works is what FITS and FUNCTIONS properly.
Brand name be darned, if you can adapt Corvette brakes to your Mustang, go for it, yet most of the larger Cobra Mustang stuff works equally well and is designed to fit more Ford designs.
Odd thing is most people never see that GM ford or Chrysler adopt a design standard. Like GM has used same ignition strategies in place since HEI was invented. This means that if I design a DIS set up it WILL integrate into FI setup across most any GM. EVEN if it has never ran DIS. The module exports specific signals, the computer doesnt know if its a distributor or a DIS or something else.
Same with any other part. How many hot rodders over the last 100+ years have adapted what works to make their car operate or look different.
This is our hobby, this is what we do. Look for what works, make it fit and enjoy.
Good Luck
Lee