Crossbreading acceptable??

[BRIAN]

I am starting my 68 Bird build and have been undecided about drivetrain. I have a healthy 383 sbc ready to go but for some reason I am thinking it isn't going to be right without a Pontiac engine in there??

I also thought of the LS1 as it seems to be more acceptable???

Pontiac engines cost about 2x the money to build are heavy, etc, etc. Any opinions???

[PeteRR]

Blasphemy. I've got a few Ford parts on my Road Runner, but I'd never run a foreign powerplant. Especially a sbc. :box2:

[69rs]

I'd never run a foreign powerplant. Especially a sbc. :box2:

Yeah, you wouldn't want it to be fast or anything!:box:

[pushrod243]

GM thought that it was okay 3rd and 4th gens had corporate motor but oh yeah they werent selling good enough to keep producing. :pat:

I still say the ls1 is the most bang for your buck just get one from a firebird and your in!

[race-rodz-inc]

hey... my 34 ford truck is mostly chevy parts... all the important ones anyway... motor/trans/brakes. of coarse its acceptable... if not normal to have old fords with chevy drivetrain.

[Streetking]

Call Butler Performance..

SW

[race-rodz-inc]

and...i have a cobra project with all viper suspension... its crossbreeding in the snake family.

i say run the sbc... if no other reason it will really pi$$off the purists

[wick]

The thing about a Pontiac is a 326 is the same size block as a 455. I have always built 455's with very good results and have smoked many a sbc and bcc. Before you guys start knocking me, I have seen plenty of good running Chevys but I just like the Pontiac.

The most common mistake I see with guys building Pontiacs is they build them and try to run them like a Chevy. You can build a stock bottom end 455 with the right cam and the right head and a stock intake and make all kinds of torque. No replacement for displacement. Bigger the gun, bigger the hole. When in doubt, bore it out.

Just my .02 cents.

[bobzdar]

Call Butler, Nunzi, Spotts or Kauffman depending on who is closest.


It does not cost 2x to build a Pontiac. Price a 400hp Pontiac vs. a 400hp sbc, odds are the Pontiac will be cheaper as you won't need aftermarket parts to do it and will only have to pay for machine work/assembly once you've got a good core engine (which you may already have in your '68). Weight difference is about 50-75lbs depending on what aluminum parts you run...There is an aluminum block available but that is big $$. Saves ~100lbs. Stock cast crank and block are good to around 600hp, aftermarket rods (~$300 for forged h-beams, also good to ~600hp) are highly recommended for over 6000 rpms in a 400 or 5500rpms in a 455. Good aftermarket aluminum heads run around $1800 ready to bolt on, enough air flow for 550ish hp. A little more $$ gets cnc ported heads good for over 600...

It all depends on what you want to do, check www.performanceyears.com (http://www.performanceyears.com) forums and www.classicalpontiac.com (http://www.classicalpontiac.com) Q&A and ask away, but DO NOT put an sbc in it. If that's the route you want to go, sell it and buy a camaro, lord knows there's enough of them out there...

[yody]

but DO NOT put an sbc in it. If that's the route you want to go, sell it and buy a camaro, lord knows there's enough of them out there...

Yes DO NOT put a Small block chevy in there at ALL costs!!

....But put a BIG block chevy in there like me!! :rolleyes5

[Bill Howell]

A true protouring car is by nature a custom vehicle. I see nothing wrong with crossbreeding, especially if it stays in the GM family. The good thing about LS motors is they are GM parts, not Chevy or Pontiac. I would not even consider an LS in your application as crossbreeding, just updating. :icon996:

[MuscleRodz]

You got it, use it. Otherwise i wouldn't do it. BTW, is DeRaad (sp?)done with his crossbread project yet????

Mike

[RobM]

if it were me id put what ever motor I had in there that would fit the bill power wise. maybe its because I’m a youngin' but the way I figure it is we all drive muscle cars and they are all awesome cause they are American classics. im not bias towards ford, GM, mopar or any thing else for that matter i just love classic American styling, hi performance and that v8 rumble. i say go for it, hot rodding has been about transplanting since its beginning. with out transplanting we wouldn’t have hot rods!!!

[Jim Nilsen]

If you keep the hood closed you can tell them anything you want. Put the badges on the car you want to get them to believe.

I remember being out of town in a bar and wearing a Peterbuilt hat. A guy asked me what kind of engine I had in my Peterbuilt. I could have made him believe anything I wanted with enough bull. Being honest I told him I had a chevy truck and it was just a free hat. Guy I was with said I should have had fun and had the baddest Pete ever built since I knew enough about big rigs to do it.

Noone really cares except people who are prejudiced and have to talk to totally like minded people to be accepted. Probably why Pro-Touring is so cool. You aren't expected to be the same cause we are all into something completely different and if you can pull it off in style it is what fits in.

Kind of like , if nothing in your living room matches then anything you bring home will fit right in.

Jim Nilsen

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Go with the LS1. Best bang for the buck motor, and the pontiac and chevy ls1s are identical, there is no brand specific motor. 450rwhp (no nitrous) can be had for under $6-7k. It's hard to beat.

[CamaroAJ]

friend of mind down the street put a 502 BBC crate engine in his 79 T/A and got pontiac valve covers on it. looks bad as hell, he's won a few shows with it and it runs 11.60's drives it to and from the track.

[kmcanally]

You got it, use it. Otherwise i wouldn't do it. BTW, is DeRaad (sp?)done with his crossbread project yet????

Mike

I was closely following that project but his website has not been updated in a while...

[wantahertzdonut]

Engine swapping is fine, but to tell you the truth, I get really tired of seeing SBC's popping up in everything. They are cheap and are a good engine but seriously, it gets boring. Look around, everyone has put an SBC into everything!

With that said, I should state that the LS1 is a fine, fine engine and I wouldn't hesitate putting it in an older generation Firebird. Heck, if I ever built a small block A-body car I'd consider an LS1. I think they're a lot better than the previous SBC's too, and since they came in 4th gen firebirds, your car would make a fine home for an LS1.

I should also say I'm not a purist, I just like to be a little different when my resources allow for it. An SBC isn't very different.

With the market going the way it is, there's countless go-fast parts for every engine out there. Old Pontiacs can be built to all sorts of crazy specs. One other thing is a built BBP is the meanest, angriest, and best sounding engine out there. I'd highly suggest building a Pontiac engine for your Firebird! Build it mean, and be proud of what you have. I think you'll get a lot of happy reactions when you pop the hood and people see you've still got a thundering Pontiac engine under the hood.

Oh, and in regards to the weight, a BBP is no heavier than a BBC. Plus you can buy AL heads and an intake and save at least 100lbs.

[Steve1968LS2]

Well today there is no such thing as a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick or whatever engine.. on GM corporate engines.

In fact the LS1 was used in the PONTIAC Trans-am so it would be like putting a Pontiac motor in the car.

Follow my drift??

Nothing wrong with keeping a vintage Pontiac motor in the car though.. sort of refreshing to see.

Or you could piss off everyone and put a supercharged 03 Cobra motor in the car.. lol

[JoshStratton]

friend of mind down the street put a 502 BBC crate engine in his 79 T/A and got pontiac valve covers on it. looks bad as hell, he's won a few shows with it and it runs 11.60's drives it to and from the track.
Is it black? I think I got a pic of it from DHardison. Looks killer!

[BRIAN]

Funny how the LS1 is thought of as acceptable but the generic SBC isn't? Not sure how you build a Pontiac engine for the same price? Problem with the LS1 is I wanted non FI motor for this one. By the time you add up all the related items for a FI motor you are way up there in cost. Thanks for the input and I have some thinking to do.

[JoshStratton]

Put a Honda engine in it.

[rickk]

wick ,you better get with it boy . lol:sleeping:

rick kirkindall

[CamaroAJ]

Is it black? I think I got a pic of it from DHardison. Looks killer!

yeah its the black one.

[redsand]

It is up to you. It is your car, your money, and if you are not showing it at pontiac only shows, it probably will not be a big deal. I put a pontiac in my trans am for my own reasons. If it is a pro-touring car chances are that there will probably be few pontiac items still on the car. (Suspension,brakes,seats,rear,wheels,gauges)

Good luck

[wick]

Now Rick, you know I got it.

13.30 @ 108 MPH on Radial TA's. Stock intake, Q-Jet, HEI, no power adders of any kind. No frame connectors or traction devices (try that with a 4 speed), everything stock for a 10th Anniversary TA except it was a 455 with a cam and headers. The short block wasn't even balanced!

I remember you driving a few Pontiac powered cars after you ditched the Fords.

[Roger Poirier]

Well today there is no such thing as a Chevy, Pontiac, Buick or whatever engine.. on GM corporate engines.

In fact the LS1 was used in the PONTIAC Trans-am so it would be like putting a Pontiac motor in the car.

Follow my drift??

Nothing wrong with keeping a vintage Pontiac motor in the car though.. sort of refreshing to see.

Yes, its acceptable. However, why would you put in a LS1 if a pontiac engine is available? I'm not positive but I believe a lot of people put LS1 engines in there cars because they are ready available as crate motors.

Not everyone has a pontiac engine to work with. Plus they make tons of torque and are a lot of fun to drive on the street. It will give that bird the authentic look. Just my thoughts.

Don't you chevy guys start jumping on me. Lots of love.

R.P.

[Scott Parkhurst]

Pontiac engines are cool because not everyone has one, knows about them, or knows how much potential they have in near-factory condition.

I love the oddball engines, since they add so much to the flavor of the car. And, of course, they're different. I began building cool cars to be different, and dropping an SBC into a Poncho makes it much "less" different to me. I love SBCs in Chevys, but if it's a Buick, Olds, or Pontiac, do yourself a favor and learn about an alternative make V-8. It's an education you'll never regret...

SP~!

[Steve1968LS2]

Yes, its acceptable. However, why would you put in a LS1 if a pontiac engine is available? I'm not positive but I believe a lot of people put LS1 engines in there cars because they are ready available as crate motors.

Not everyone has a pontiac engine to work with. Plus they make tons of torque and are a lot of fun to drive on the street. It will give that bird the authentic look. Just my thoughts.

Don't you chevy guys start jumping on me. Lots of love.

R.P.

An LS1 IS a Pontiac motor :) If you don't believe me just open up the hood of any 4th generation Trans Am or Firebird.. lol

A lot of people put in LS1 engines for several reasons, the hp per a $ is good, low weight, ease of living with an EFI set-up, great gas milage. Also, they have been out so long that you can find salvaged motors for good cost. (less than $3k with trans). Personally I don't see why people think it is so difficult to put in an EFI motor.. a few extra do-dads for the fuel system and an ECM programing.. I guess the worst part is that so few parts you already have will work with Gen III motor and that equals cash.

The ponitac motor would be cool and would get second looks from people since it is relatively rare to see built up Pontiac motors since most people go the easy route with a SBC.

[JLM]

I'm somewhat of a purist in this respect. I've got a Pontiac, and yes I've got a pontiac powerplant. I wouldn't be against doing an LS engine as they were found in pontiacs as well, so that's definitely acceptable. In fact I think it would be cool to do a 428 or 455 inch LS2.

I'll keep my 455 though. I can say that if I was building a new poncho motor it'd be around 440 inches. 4.0" stroke with 4.21" bore., forged i-beams, steel crank, edelbrock heads with torker II manifold with a turtle, dominator style carb and a cam in the neighborhood of a Comp 305H. In fact doing some checking you can get a balanced rotating assembly with the above mentioned parts from Butler performance for around 2000.00. Add in the extra funds for heads, intake, valvetrain etc and you're probably looking at about 4500.00 for a solid 500hp combo.

[yody]

An LS1 IS a Pontiac motor :) If you don't believe me just open up the hood of any 4th generation Trans Am or Firebird.. lol

A lot of people put in LS1 engines for several reasons, the hp per a $ is good, low weight, ease of living with an EFI set-up, great gas milage. Also, they have been out so long that you can find salvaged motors for good cost. (less than $3k with trans). Personally I don't see why people think it is so difficult to put in an EFI motor.. a few extra do-dads for the fuel system and an ECM programing.. I guess the worst part is that so few parts you already have will work with Gen III motor and that equals cash.

The ponitac motor would be cool and would get second looks from people since it is relatively rare to see built up Pontiac motors since most people go the easy route with a SBC.

I've always wanted to know....... what in the hell does "uber" mean???? geek :geek:

[derekf]

It's german. I believe it roughly translates as "super" or "more than". Any German speakers want to correct me?

[formula]

uber=german for really or very, i believe.

i dont know how you guys can say it's ok to have an ls-motor because "it came from the factory in pontiacs" but it's not ok to have a gen 1 small block when my car, a ton of the later year second gens, and just about every third gen on the road (not counting the iron dukes!) rolled off the factory with one under the hood.

which sold better, 3rd gens or 4th gens? not a rhetorical question, i'm genuinely curious.

[yody]

ah, good to know, always wondered about that

[Steve1968LS2]

I've always wanted to know....... what in the hell does "uber" mean???? geek :geek:

German.. I thought it was for "super" .. like UberMan would be Superman..

I need to find a German now.. lol

[Todds69]

Uber is German for "great or "super"...my wife lived in Germany for 3 years...Air Force Brat..

[indyjps]

run a buick big block so everyone can say WTF. use what youve got and run it hard, when you blow it up then just build a better one.

[mlr1026]

I have a 69 bird that I'm dropping in a 385 sbc I had built (had the engine built for another project) I would have to say it all depends on what your car is ie: any value in restoring it or is it a plain jane firebird? When I bought my bird it had a 350 pont. engine out of a 78 actually the entire drivetrain and when I ran the # to check it out there really was nothing special so, I decided to build what I wanted not what everyone else wanted. If I were to listen to everyone else instead of myself I would have a typical suv monthly payment out of my a$$ no motorcycle, jeep wrangler or the pontiac. You are the one spending your hard earned money,countless hours working on it, bleeding for it. Also you can always change it later if you want. These projects are rarely ever truly finished.

[wantahertzdonut]

run a buick big block so everyone can say WTF. use what youve got and run it hard, when you blow it up then just build a better one.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who'd recommend a BBB!

[bobzdar]

I wouldn't run a Buick in a pro-touring app due to their oiling problems...

That being said, they are a great engine, very easy to make a lot of power with stock parts much like a Pontiac.

If you think it's going to be much more expensive to build a Pontiac, you really should do some more research. It only gets significantly more expensive if you're trying to make much more than 600hp at over 8000rpm. Up to that point it's not bad as you can still use the stock block and crank with relatively inexpensive forged rods and pistons. Over that and you have to start worrying about re-inforcing the block, expensive crank prep etc. What are your goals power-wise?

Also, I would not build a 4.21" (455) stroke pontiac for a road-race or high-rpm type application...There are a lot of reasons for that and I'd get into them if anyone is genuinely curious but due to the 400/428/455 all having the same bore, the bigger stroke doesn't make for the most powerful engine, especially considering the stock and common rod lengths available.

Anyway, how much power are you after?

[VF101_jay]

Just my opinion, but unless you are trying to save an historically significant numbers matching collectible car, why get too worried about brand loyalty...the manifacturers didn't, how many Trans-Ams are out there with factory Olds and Chevy blocks!

[BADVELLE]

Besides being a very nice car, ask Derrick M what the #1 comment is with his Firebird, I bet he says b/c it has a Poncho powerplant. I like to tow the line and keep Chevy in Chevy and Ford in Ford, etc, however, it is ultimately up to you. This is what makes your project, your project, if you like it, what else matters.

[6'9"Witha69]

Not this again :rolleyes:

[Damn True]

I want a pontiac with a skyline engine in it.

[muthstryker]

i picked up a honda vtech for my gto last week ..............................

[LateNight72]

Just pull a LS1 out of a '04 GTO, you'll feel much better, or any IV Gen T/A..

-Todd

[Damn True]

i picked up a honda vtech for my gto last week ..............................

Sweet dude!:headbang:

[[email protected]]

I've always thought it was ok as long as it was under the same roof. I thought the aston martin motored mustang was cool. Once you start putting a SBC in a ford or a Hemi into a Camaro, now it's not cool anymore.

[Bandit]

B@stard cars are cool! :headbang:

[Goatman]

The LS-x family is more Pontiac than Chevy and if it came in a Pontiac, and has a Pontiac VIN, its a Pontiac motor. GM says it is, and no one here is more qualified than GM...........

[6'9"Witha69]

Put what you want in it. That is what Hot rodding is all about. Think about the original hot rodders. They always wanted to stand out. Swap a flathead for a nailhead. Then someone uses a 409. Then an SBC or BBC. How about a HEMI? Now it seems that original flatheads are a way to be different. Even the most Die hard FORD guys run what they think is best, coolest, or just plain fits.

I hate these debates.

[Steve1968LS2]

An LS1 IS a Pontiac engine, as is a LS2.. so there's your answer :)

[muthstryker]

An LS1 IS a Pontiac engine, as is a LS2.. so there's your answer :)


woah.... never new...

[trapin]

The LS1, LS2, LS6 and LS7 were designed, engineered and produced by GM Powertrain.

They hold no affiliation with Chevrolet, Pontiac or any of our other brand names.

[BRIAN]

Wow, old thread!! Well to make all happy that was about 3 cars ago and the 383 Chevy is in another members Camaro so no ******* was created.


I honestly think the LS is one of those engines that most consider acceptable to put in anything. Can't beat the HP to weight ratio.


Everybody hates US engineering but think how powerful and effecient that powerplant line is compared to how simple the design is. No variable 30 something valves or 20 other electronic goodies needed. Not sure if it can park itself though. I know off topic.

[WS6]

Please ! It doesn't need to park itself. An LS powered car stops where it wants to and all others go around it.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

An LS powered car stops where it wants to and all others go around it.

LOL! That's a good quote; I'm sure the guys on tech would love it.

[MonzaRacer]

I would have ran a stroked 400. turn down the 455 crank to 400 spec (less friction) do step up for better rods as the Arma-Cast are only good to 5500 stock and a stretch of 6000 if polished/shot peened,new bolts and resized and no detonation.
Stock cranks hardly ever break but getting it either hard chromed (I have a 389/400 hard chromed crank) or nitrided for surface hardness.
For pistons either hyoertecs for low rpm engines or forged if you just gotta run the pee out of it.
As for the top end for protouring Edelbrock makes the best bang for the buck on Poncho but as for intake and cam give Rock and Roll engineering a call, those guys can make almost any Pontiac run hard.
top it with a Carb Shop tweaked Qjet for torque motor and a well modded Holley if you gotta rpm it.
BUT if I had my druthers I would look around for a Commander 950 or similar 4 bbl throttle body and look at a Megqsquirt for a FI. Drill what ever intake you like for injectors or use the 4bbl TBI. Let a tweaked HEI from DUI run the ignition and fix up a Megasquirt for closed loop fuel control.
Good headers and a decent true dual with X pipe and some mellow mufflers and hae fun.
Add in some fun gears like 3.42 or 3.73 and a TKO600 for the row factor as it will be a torque monster.
Properly built the 350 through 455 Pontiacs with good aluminum heads are torque makers and will weigh in less than a SBC if I remember correctly.
Good luck how ever you go.

[LONE*STAR]

I had this same convo with freinds about a year ago when tearing down my 67 400 firebird, there is no right way to go, but Im damn glad I kept my 400... whoops my friends 4th gens all the time.

spec....... .40 over balanced stock low end, trw forged 10.8/1, stock rebuilt heads w, ss valves ect, elderbrock intake, 850 cfm holley hp, big cam (can dig up spec if needed), msd 6al,blaster ect. less than 4500 including machining and assl of the short block.

[Roadrage David]

OK first of a high perf Pontiac injun engine is NOT more ecspensife then a chebby ..infact you have BETTER big block performance on the streets then useing a BIG block chebby. the injun mill is a intermidiat engine qua weight. i got a Central Verginia Mashine Sirves 400 stroker to 461 ci 550 hp 577lbs feet of torque,6200 rpm red line, and it kicks chebby ass beeing it small ore big block. the MYTH to use a chebby for power and ore save costs are old whife tales these days... the last couple of years are suplying us with tremendes amounds of quality afthermarket parts. the new indian adventure TIGER heads is one aczample they flow 400cfm out of the box!! . there are now 5 afthermarked type of heads 3 afthermarked engine bocks ecetera ecetera.. infact the pontiac franety hase a unicum availeble to them that is revolutionary WITCH NONE of the traditional ore modernday v8 american brands hase . chek this site chebby boys and eat your harth out. i got a set alredy!!!! PONTIAC V.TEC http://www.vari-lift.com/ i dont have to ecsplain the work of the SWISS now do i:1st: yes the injun mill is coming closer and closer and soon it will not only be:machine: Furd and Chebby but :drive: Injun as wel......last but not least haveing a chebby in your poncho these days is defenatly not cool you WILL be the step child forever not having a real poncho nore a chebby,,,,,,,,,..............

[ProTouring442]

My honest opinion... Who Cares! It's your car, paint it pink and put green flames on it if you want! Make it fast, and run them over when they whine about your choice of engine. :bicycle:

Seriously, I put a BBC in my Olds. Why? I had one, and they're reasonable to build. Would I love to do some sort of Olds engine? Sure, and I'll swap anyone even up for the BBC if they'll give me my list of "stuff." But, since my list would probably amount to a $25,000.00 engine, I don't think I'll have any takers!

Build it your way, not the groups way. When I started my endless project, everyone thought I was crazy for making a car that would go around corners, not just fast in a straight line. Everyone said to "tub it and run some M/Ts on the back. Glad I didn't listen to the group! :secret:

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Bandit]

......last but not least haveing a chebby in your poncho these days is defenatly not cool you WILL be the step child forever not having a real poncho nore a chebby,,,,,,,,,..............
First off, having a Chevy engine in a Pontiac is NOT a true crossbreed, IMHO. It's all in the family, GM to GM. Pontiac used Olds and Chevy engines in their cars from the factory, so why not do it? Second, no one cares anyway--it does not make you "uncool," except for in the eyes of crazy Pontiac purists who let their love for ponchos limit their options for performance.

[Roadrage David]

so Pontiac purists are Limited on performance optiond huh. tell this to these guys. http://jbp-pontiac.com/ while your ad it chek there 2800 hp twin turbo engine. ore these guys http://www.allpontiac.com/ last but defenatly not not least i figured out wrong that somebody at least would look at the previus link i placed http://vari-lift.com/ i gues the arogens of the massa,s dindt bother picking up on this fine piece of engeneering.......

[Damn True]

This bad-boy in a GTO
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/06/turbo_bkdoor_1-1.jpg

Or this in an early Trans-AM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/06/eco2turbo-1.jpg

[6'9"Witha69]

so Pontiac purists are Limited on performance optiond huh. tell this to these guys. http://jbp-pontiac.com/ while your ad it chek there 2800 hp twin turbo engine. ore these guys http://www.allpontiac.com/ last but defenatly not not least i figured out wrong that somebody at least would look at the previus link i placed http://vari-lift.com/ i gues the arogens of the massa,s dindt bother picking up on this fine piece of engeneering.......All this in what, the last 3 years? It is not like there hasn't been a market for it just as long as the Chevy stuff, so why is it that Poncho stuff is only now coming into it's own, while Chevy engineering and inginuity has been around for decades? Has there been no motivation in the aftermarket for Poncho stuff till now? Is it that hard to make a Poncho good that it takes 25 years longer to figure out making them fast? Maybe more people wanted Chevy parts so Poncho stuff was put on hold by all except those in the same fanatical camp.

It is those who love their Ponchos too much and resemble the Spanish Inquisition making all the noise in the debate. Has Pontiac been the stepchild for so long that they all have to hate the Prodigal child? Must be envy fueling the anger.

Do whatever makes you feel good. At the end of the day, it's your car.

[Roadrage David]

(All this in what, the last 3 years?) ....nop 6 years.... (It is not like there hasn't been a market for it just as long as the Chevy stuff, so why is it that Poncho stuff is only now coming into it's own),...... because the market is ore WAS indeed smaller sins the PMD was terminated. it was comen sense that afthermarked part manufactors invested in chevy to make money.. it is mutch more ecspensife and low profiteble to divelop parts for the money making companys, all the new parts with the ecseption of the edelb heads and edel manifolds are ALL divelopd by private vendors and pontiac entusiasts who work with smaller budged,s..( while Chevy engineering and inginuity has been around for decades? Has there been no motivation in the aftermarket for Poncho stuff till now?)...... motivation hase nothing to do with it but as mention above money hase,,,, the potenty of the pontiac engine was never in question...( Is it that hard to make a Poncho good that it takes 25 years longer to figure out making them fast?).. pontiacs have always been fast so fast that GM always puled the plug more then ones when they become a sells tread to chevy. take a look at the 60/63 sd raceing program/ the GM ban on pontiac stiking 428ci engines in firebirds and GTO,s to keep chevelle and camaro sell nrs up, the transam raceing series ram airv engine ban...the pontiac fiero,s divelopmend became a seriues tread to the corvette if the 89/90 type mid engine car would have been brought in production/ pulling pontiac out of nascar was another one (Maybe more people wanted Chevy parts so Poncho stuff was put on hold by all except those in the same fanatical camp)... the only rezen pontiac (forced by GM) used oldsmobile 403 engines was that GM alredy disieded to terminate the individual GM motor divisions to save money and cut loses. there where plenty olds engines laying around to be used up. afther the gm motor divisions termination the chevy small block was chosen because it was cheap to build.yet in its ""stock"" option infiruer to the pontiac engine disign polution ecetera . hensh the rezen why sec gen camaro was running 350ci small blocks and the firebird with the 400 and 455 ci. look at the 455 sd transam program. never the less comersial whize the sbc was is the most sucsesfull comersional engine ever made this thusend nesersary make it the best engine!!!.... chevy hase always been the bigest GM brand and if Pontiac ore any other GM brand came out strong ore sometimes stronger GM as usual pulled the plug..... people today are discovering the traditional pontiac,s engines potentional and together with the afthermarket parts the pontiac comunity is growing!! rapitly. they are not on the chevy and Ford level yet but give it a couple of more years and it will be. defenatly a force to be recond with, and insted of douwngrading it everybody should embrace it...

(It is those who love their Ponchos too much and resemble the Spanish Inquisition making all the noise in the debate. Has Pontiac been the stepchild for so long that they all have to hate the Prodigal child? Must be envy fueling the anger. ) Pontiac was never alouwd to grow , ore serieus compeat for the leading brand in the GM groop. iventho they more then ones with mutchs smaller budgeds proved to be able to produce a beter product again more then ones... it is difeculd to see if your not into pontiacs , but if you are you see that so mutch potentional hase been terminated for the sake of yes money!!! witchs is frustrating . every brand hase its sucses storys and fans, but to belive that chevy is the only option to make power for e pontiac car is ignorend and redicules , please ecscuse me for my bad spelling and wrighting im dutch and dislectic... David

[Bandit]

every brand hase its sucses storys and fans, but to belive that chevy is the only option to make power for e pontiac car is ignorend and redicules... David
Nobody is saying Chevy's the only option, just that you have a lot MORE options with Chevy and they can be built for less money in general. If you want to buy me a 600 hp Butler 455 I will be thrilled to run it til it blows. I would like a 467 with forged crank, please. It's only $8,350...

[andrewb70]

This thread cracks me up.

Andrew

[Roadrage David]

Nobody is saying Chevy's the only option, just that you have a lot MORE options with Chevy and they can be built for less money in general. If you want to buy me a 600 hp Butler 455 I will be thrilled to run it til it blows. I would like a 467 with forged crank, please. It's only $8,350... what is wrong with that!! at the 500 hp level the costs are the same!!!. so you ""might"" pay a little more. in the end you have more retail valiuew haveing a poncho mill in a pontiac.quote, Nobody is saying that chevy is the only option , first thing you see whe this guy asks for engine advice is PUT A CHEVY IN IT. pontiac,s cant make power. .... lets face it this forum is about a ecspensife hobby no way you can build a pro-touring car ""cheap"".. so why moning that pontiac engine parts are ecspenfi:dunno: . .. the way i see it is when you make these kinds of statemends is that you eather trying to cut corners and be CHEAP,,,, ORE YOU JUST DONT KNOW ANY BETTER.......

[Benoit23]

I’m no purest but, unless your doing a original restore I say mix it up if you want.

[andrewb70]

what is wrong with that!! at the 500 hp level the costs are the same!!!. so you ""might"" pay a little more. in the end you have more retail valiuew haveing a poncho mill in a pontiac.quote, Nobody is saying that chevy is the only option , first thing you see whe this guy asks for engine advice is PUT A CHEVY IN IT. pontiac,s cant make power. .... lets face it this forum is about a ecspensife hobby no way you can build a pro-touring car ""cheap"".. so why moning that pontiac engine parts are ecspenfi:dunno: . .. the way i see it is when you make these kinds of statemends is that you eather trying to cut corners and be CHEAP,,,, ORE YOU JUST DONT KNOW ANY BETTER.......

500HP on an engine dyno is an LS1 with heads and cam. If your starting from scratch its the only way to go if you don't care about nomenclature and nostalgia.

Andrew

[Roadrage David]

Andrew there are many if,s...personaly i have no problem with a modern incorporated GM engine in a gm muscle car, but there is plenty divelopmend left useing the ""traditional"" gm core.s like the Pontiac engine to fooll around with, with aded modern tegnology like the V-tec rokker system for the inun engine..

[MonzaRacer]

In all honesty I like the idea of building a Pontiac. Even if the heads are a little more (not much ) a set of aftermarket AFRs or such BUT a Pontiac small journal 455 with preped Arma-Cast rods can make in the range of 500 to 600 hp but is a little on the ragged edge for reliabilityBUT if you plan it properly the self same engine can be built with mostly stock parts, cast (or Hypertec) pistons have a red line of 5500 and make well over 500 lb ft of torque.
My machinst ran a 64 Tempest with a 400 Pontiac, Crane SuperFlow preped RA4 heads, a one off Lunati solid cam thats way wild and the biggest flat tappet cam without going roller, it had Arma cast rods with good rod bolts,hard chromed nodular crank, 13 to 1 forged pistons and ran a 4 speed Muncie and 488 gears and held a 11 1/2 lb class record in southern Indiana and this engines ONLY failure was it liked to spin rods (not due to rod failure, crank failure hence the chrome crank) and he launched it at 7500 and shifted at 8500 ever run.
This car ran low 7's or high 6's in 1/8th carrying 4100 lbs and old 60s rock hard slicks. A similar engine (same cam and better heads but same bottom end) in a similar car but lightened up to the current 3200 lbs and it will pull the wheels and keep them up(well it does have a Jerico tans now) past half track, pulls 1.18 60 fts and runs 5.30s (1/8th) all day. And theengine has been together for 4 years with only regular freshen ups, of bearings, rings, rod bolts, valve springs once a year(well it cracked a piston year before last) and this is the 5th year going racing.
We did some extra prep to the Arma Cast rods but polishing the rods and shot peening and then cryogenic tempering (his company sends parts by the ton so a few extra never got noticed) and the crank was dry film coated.
The engine was built with a budget in mind for the most part but would have cost maybe another $350 to $500 if he had to pay for everything..
But in all honesty the engine could be reproduced for less than $6k max and a few better parts in it. But gee whiz the Pontiac is a super torque engine.
And another thing, one of the reasons for Pontiacs not getting any help in the aftermarket (they actually had just as many parts a SBC or BBC) except heads till Edelbrock revamped the RA4 pieces was because they got dropped from production in '78.
It was rumored they didnt meet emission standards but this was false. The big thing about the Pontiacs, Olds and Buicks and even the big Caddies was that we had n more 5k or 6k lb cars to lug around and didnt need big torque engines anymore. A 305 smog engine would pull a 3500 lb Gbody or Fbody plenty good and when the overdrives came out with low firsts and the overdrive they lived a lot better too.
A true Pontiac engine was built with 4 in bore and a 3.5 stroke and used standard 4X heads and they used typical 80s "technology" for the cam and such and the engine still made over 400 lb ft of torque and got high teens mileage and actually needed less emissions equipment over the SBC, one due in part to the nice clean machined combustion chambers. anmd teamed with overdrive the "proto type car was a mid 80s Pontiac Gbody and the tech writers loved the power and the fact that Pontiac wanted to revive the Pontiac engine (more specificly for the NASCAR revolution coming) as it was a torque producer.
They built 7 358 in round track engines in several configureations and the cars made better mileage, used less fuel, and actually never broke any parts as the engines didnt need to turn as hard to make power.
They wouldnt out accelerate a Chevy BUT would pull like freight trains after hitting speed. And walk off from the olther brands.
GM finally killed it cause they did nt see any benifit to retooling for the Pontiac.
And the tooling/development chain still remainss for the SBC. And the aftermarket Pontiac lovers are building and developing the Poncho.
I like thme and wish I could put another one together as I have several parts ,like a chrome crank, spare block,severla sets of heads etclaying around but dont have any cash.
Lee

[Roadrage David]

some time ago my frind copyd the car craft 501 hp pontiac resepy with 577 lbs feet of torque with right out of the box parts. stock bottom end edelheads ecetera i belive 5000 usd!!!!!!thing runs like a beast.....

[chop]

I used to be firmly on the side of a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac. In the last fews years I have changed my opinion. The LS1 is just too good not to consider, and for the latest technology is the only GM option. I am dropping one in my 69 Firebird. Still can't wrap my head around an LS1 in a Ford though.