Has anyone gone the 5x120mm (BMW) route?

[Daren]

And how has it worked out for you? Regret it, love it? I don't plan to road race or autox the car.

I want a mesh style wheel for one of my T/As but I'm not going to pay 800 a wheel to get it. I see an abundance of mesh wheels with correct BS for a 2nd gen F-body at less than 250 a wheel with a 5x120 pattern. I don't expect a 5'' lip on a 250 a piece budget. 3'' will do fine.

[67rally]

They are very close in size, but not exact.

A lot of people have done it without any problems. A lot of others say that it will stress the lugs too much and you risk catastrophic failure. You could always use a high quality adapter to go from 5x120 to 5x4.75 (5x120.7).

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

my camaro "Stormy" was wearing BMW pattern OZs for a long time..

ignore the height, she was dropped severely after this pic.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/11/4014680196_39abee75ab_o-1.jpg

and how is it driven hard?

heres a video

http://youtu.be/9pHr9lWEQg0

[cornfedbill]

My advice is to use adapters. The lugs will be stressed no matter how you look at it.

I was considering this route, but chose to purchase wheels with the correct pattern after some research. Many people have no problem, but the few that did were enough to steer me the other direction.

As I said, use adapters to eliminate the risk. You will never regret being on the safe side.

[Wheel Werkes]

You guys ever heard of "Wobble" bolts. I used it on a car i had to run a 5x112 on a 5x114 bolt pattern. Worked perfectly.

Heres some info on it i found on a website: Lug Nut with PCD Variation. PCD Variation on Radius of 1.2mm. Example: Adapts 5x112 wheels to 5x114.3 wheel hubs without redrilling! This lug nut is fitted with a sliding conical washer that keeps the bolts axis perpendicular to the car flange, while allowing radial displacement in pcd variation. Available in 12x1.25mm, 12x1.5mm and 1/2 UNF. 19mm head. Cone Seat. Overall height is 34mm.Zinc Finish. Attention: Minimum thread engagement is 18mm.

[cornfedbill]

You guys ever heard of "Wobble" bolts. I used it on a car i had to run a 5x112 on a 5x114 bolt pattern. Worked perfectly.

Heres some info on it i found on a website: Lug Nut with PCD Variation. PCD Variation on Radius of 1.2mm. Example: Adapts 5x112 wheels to 5x114.3 wheel hubs without redrilling! This lug nut is fitted with a sliding conical washer that keeps the bolts axis perpendicular to the car flange, while allowing radial displacement in pcd variation. Available in 12x1.25mm, 12x1.5mm and 1/2 UNF. 19mm head. Cone Seat. Overall height is 34mm.Zinc Finish. Attention: Minimum thread engagement is 18mm.

I have never heard of that. Sounds like a creative solution.

[67rally]

Interesting, I've never seen those either. Looks like they make lug nuts and lug bolts with PCD variation, depending on your need. You would still need to address the hubcentric vs lugcentric issue with some hubcentric rings, no?


Here's a pic of the lug nuts from one site:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[DarkoNova]

I've done it and wouldn't recommend it.

Somehow my 40 year old axles with stock studs held up fine for 3 years with no problems. Then I accidentally blew the diff and had it rebuilt. Rebuilt everything, including new axles and studs, and somehow the studs snapped...lost a rear wheel on the freeway.

Didn't have a problem on the front because I had a 5x4.75 to 5x120 adapter, but the rears I just put on like they were Chevy wheels.

Still don't get how 40 year old studs could take the abuse of mismatched bolt patterns and burnouts and hard driving/cornering, but brand new studs couldn't. I was still in the process of driving slow and breaking in the rear gears when I lost a wheel, so I wasn't driving hard.

You may get lucky, though. Personally I wouldn't risk it.

[srh3trinity]

I have Bimmer wheels for my Firebird, but I looked around until I found some that had enough offset so I could run an adapter. I have read the debates and would rather not run the risk. If you do run them straight up, you will want a good quality hub centric adapter from what I have seen.

[SS PUNISHER]

I have ran them with 0 issues

[El Numero1]

I just bought a set of parallel M´s for my 69 camaro, do you guys know wich hubcentric rings I need to buy to add some safety to my ride??

thanks

[Daren]

I have Bimmer wheels for my Firebird, but I looked around until I found some that had enough offset so I could run an adapter. I have read the debates and would rather not run the risk. If you do run them straight up, you will want a good quality hub centric adapter from what I have seen.

Hub centric is superior to lug centric. Correct pattern or not, I would imagine anyone intending to seriously race their car would desire a hub centric mount. Do hub centric mounting options (adapters) even exist for 2nd gen F bodies? Old cars in general? I thought this was very much a new car thing.

Why would a GM vehicle running BMW bolt pattern require a hub centric mount? Do after market BMW wheels not have a concave "face" for a lug centric lug nut to lug centrically center the wheel? It'd help to take the additional stress off the lugs of the 5X120 pattern but the same can be said about lug centric centering in general.

Also, is there any truth to the claim that OLD OEM cast aluminum wheels "oval" over time and the differences between a 5X120 pattern on a 5X120.64 is no different than the differences in tolerance of a 5X120.64 oval'd wheel on a 5X120.64 spacing?

I'd gladly buy 5X120.64 wheels for the car if everything in my price point wasn't a damn crager TT clone.

^
Anyone can feel free to answer any of these questions. They are not just directed at srh3trinity

Nice job on the color choices of that car BTW Mr.VENGEANCE. You got an eye for it. Is that power coat or paint on those black trim pieces?

[DarkoNova]

Hub centric is superior to lug centric. Correct pattern or not, I would imagine anyone intending to seriously race their car would desire a hub centric mount. Do hub centric mounting options (adapters) even exist for 2nd gen F bodies? Old cars in general? I thought this was very much a new car thing.

Hub-centric is indeed superior, but think about this: have you ever seen an import or even an suv with cheap universal chrome wheels? Have you ever seen the back of a universal wheel? The hub bore is usually huge so it can fit over every hub ever made and fit any car. So it's a lug-centric wheel. Have you ever seen or heard of anyone with lug-centric wheels having a lug failure? I've heard of more Chevy guys running BMW wheels and having failures than I've heard of people with lug-centric wheels having failures.

Hub-centric is preferred and probably safer/stronger, but really isn't 100% necessary. As long as the hub face and wheel face are flat and clean, the lugs won't be stressed and you'll be fine.

To answer your question, yes hub-centric is available to old car owners. You just have to find a machine shop that does it. I forget the name of the big one online, but it's something with motorwerks in the name, IIRC. Or if you're on a budget, ebay has a few sellers that require your inner and outer hub measurements before they'll ship you your adapters. I had E46 M3 wheels on my Nova, and I had hub-centric lug-centric adapters to get them to fit. Really just depends on the offset of the wheels.


Why would a GM vehicle running BMW bolt pattern require a hub centric mount? Do after market BMW wheels not have a concave "face" for a lug centric lug nut to lug centrically center the wheel? It'd help to take the additional stress off the lugs of the 5X120 pattern but the same can be said about lug centric centering in general.

A GM vehicle running BMW wheels doesn't require hub-centric adapters. It just requires lug-centric. Like I said above, as long as you take out that .7mm of difference, you'll be fine. The adapters being hub-centric is really just a bonus.

[csouth]

Daren- I've never done it, but know of plenty that have. All all have stated hub-centric is better, but most wheels for our older cars are not made that way. You can get hub-centric adapters made that will not only change the lug pattern, but make the wheel centric to the adapter.
This is the place I am going to use for my rear spacers. I haven't ordered them yet, but I for my own confidence I want any spacer I use to be hub-centric to the wheel and my rear axle.

http://www.motorsport-tech.com/

[Motorcitydak]

A decent aftermarket wheel would have a large hub bore and then specifically sized hub rings that will fit perfectly to your car. DO NOT run those lug nuts that 67rally posted unless your wheels are going to fit hub centric. If you only rely on those lug nuts, that will probably be the worst ride of the car's life. Also do not think that the .65mm if not that big of a deal. The one guy on here had a wheel come off in the freeway! Learn from that. If you really, really want to run those wheels then you either need a correct adapter or take your brakes and hubs off the car. Take them to a machinist and have them redrilled for the new bolt pattern. It will cost you 2-300 depending on the hourly rate of the machinist and it will be perfect. This is not an area to try to save money, do it right

[MonzaRacer]

.65mm converts to 0.026" so split between two lugs the pattern is on 0.013" each. As a tech let me tell you I have seen so many bent and tweaked and improperly installed studs that are tweaked so bad that 0.013 sounds like NOTHING.
I have been looking at a tool that would open the holes up properly and locate some rings to make them hubcentric. Any dent machinist should whip a set up cheap.
Honestly from what I can see as long as you have at least full stud engagement all the way through and maybe some hubcentric rings I see no issues with using BMW wheels.
Honestly I would have little issue as long as studs are in decent shape and you properly torque them, I have seen guys pull wheels stands with unilug cragars so give me a break on this being so unsafe on street driven cars.
I have several adapter mfgs that make both direct bolt pattern and couple make split pattern adapters. One company a friend has ran their adapters for almost 3 full years drag racing with slicks, pulls 1.35 60ft times and has about 600 hp at the rear wheels and after all this time he had them zyglowed and thay checked fine. 6061 T6 he is going to get another set and cryo temper them this time. Reason he used them is one of the rearend companies made his housing too narrow and wont retube it. Gave him song and dance it was his fault they made it too narrow yet his order form he submitted still says his axle housing to bearing flange width and its still nearly 4 in too narrow, they also didnt want to make him new axles. He broke their axles twice. Name starts with S and he will never run their parts again. We now almost exclusively use Moser, top notch people and he got bigger axle with more spline and new spool cheaper than that OTHER company.
Intention was to only run one year, then new baby then new job and now its three years later and no ill effects. and I am sure his dragracing is harder than most of us would ever do on the street or evne autocross.

Here:http://www.ezaccessory.com/5_Lug_Adapter_With_Pattern_Conversion_s/45.htm (these are pretty good from the ones I saw)
http://www.motorsport-tech.com/
http://www.motorcitybolton.com/wheel-adapters-wheel-spacers/5-lug-wheel-adapters-wheel-spacers/5x120-7-wheel-adapters-spacers.html

[DarkoNova]

This is the place I am going to use for my rear spacers. I haven't ordered them yet, but I for my own confidence I want any spacer I use to be hub-centric to the wheel and my rear axle.

http://www.motorsport-tech.com/

That's the place I was talking about, thanks for posting a link.


Reason he used them is one of the rearend companies made his housing too narrow and wont retube it. Gave him song and dance it was his fault they made it too narrow yet his order form he submitted still says his axle housing to bearing flange width and its still nearly 4 in too narrow, they also didnt want to make him new axles. He broke their axles twice. Name starts with S and he will never run their parts again.

Funny, my oem studs held up fine for 3 years or so, but when I had my rearend rebuilt with parts from that same company, the studs snapped damn near instantly. I'm hoping now that I've rebuilt the engine I don't have problems breaking axles.

[67rally]

Hub centric is superior to lug centric. Correct pattern or not, I would imagine anyone intending to seriously race their car would desire a hub centric mount. Do hub centric mounting options (adapters) even exist for 2nd gen F bodies? Old cars in general? I thought this was very much a new car thing.


Yes, you can find hub centric ring adapters on jegs or Summit for around $10-12 for a set of 4. I believe all Camaro wheels have a center bore of 70.3mm. You just need to know what the center bore is on the BMW wheel (probably 72.5 or 74mm) and then buy the appropriate adapter.

70.3mm to 72mm-72.64mm: http://www.jegs.com/i/Detroit+Wheels/306/72-7030-4/10002/-1
70.3mm to 73mm: http://www.jegs.com/i/Detroit+Wheels/306/73-7030-4/10002/-1
70.3mm to 74mm: http://www.jegs.com/i/Detroit+Wheels/306/74-7030-4/10002/-1

70.3mm to 72mm: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gor-72-7030/overview/
70.3mm to 72mm: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gor-73-7030/overview/

[Mr Nick]

My understanding is that hubcentric rings only ensure you mount the wheel centered, and they do NOT carry the load of the vehicle. So long as you mount a wheel with an 'oversided' hub opening properly, I don't think the rings are necessary. But for the price, it makes life easier.

Just don't think that those plastic rings support any weight.

[MonzaRacer]

The rings dont hold weight. Any first year engineer should also understand the studs dont hold your vehicle up, they hold the WHEEL ON. clamping forces between the wheel face and axle and brake component and friction hold you vehicle up.
You can also use a knock off to hold a wheel on. Its all in clamping forces. This is why no more than a grade 8 fastener is needed to hold a wheel on. Its also why wheels get damaged if the lugs come loose, they are NOT made to hold the car up.
I would say that because the one guy put in NEW studs they had not seated completely AND had not been torque cycled several times, came loose and then sheered easily.
Had similar issues with Moroso press in studs but NEVER with screw in type as they dont need to seat and like head studs, they dont need to seat or anything ONLY hold a tension.
I couldnt find any 1/2 in studs from Moroso, so went to local bolt house and bout black cad plated hex bolts and threaded them in, after only one small trip down road about 2 miles total Iretorqued my wheels, and never had any issues till I removed them to sell car. Then put them back on.
Put in a set of NEW Moroso press in studs, in new axles for friend. Pressed in with 10ton hyd press, and still had to retorque them 3 or 4 times before they stayed torqued.
Understanding the dynamics of the fastener, then you can use it properly. I build engines, I take NEW ARP bolts, install heads without gaskets and torque them once or twice. THEN install my gaskets and retorque and never had any fretting or gasket issues due to clamping. If I use them fresh out of package Ihave to retorque them after start up. New fasteners some times need retorqueing. Cycle conditioning on certain bolts/fasteners is required unless its a yield type like newer head bolts. One guy over on turbo forums will pull stock type bolts till he feels them yield, hardly ever has a failure.
Anyway here is a wheel source for larger wheels too.

http://www.finishlinewheels.com/specials/1,CHEVY+CORVETTE/

[Daren]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I wanted some 1st hand accounts from both camps and I got it. There is certainly some food for thought on the table.

The topic is by no means over, so feel free to continue with your experiences and opinions, ect. I don't want to be told what to do, just your opinions on the subject and preferably, 1st hand experience. So far, so good. Thank you everyone.

EDIT: for what it's worth, I had a my rear wheel bearings fail on my MKV Lincoln and they made no noise. I didn't notice something was awry until I pulled off the interstate and I heard what sounded like tin cans being towed by a "just married" couple. 8 of my 10 rear lugs had sheared off and where banging around inside the hubcaps. One lug per rear wheel was all that was holding them in place. No noise, no wobble, nothing. Centrifugal forces must have kept them quiet at highway speeds.

[Wheel Werkes]

BTW I have a set of 5x120 wheels ready to go. I can redrill the bolt pattern accordingly if need be or include PCD variant lugnuts whichever is preferred.

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?93619-Set-of-brand-new-staggered-19-quot-3-piece-wheels-No-wait-time-any-finish

[instro84]

BTW I have a set of 5x120 wheels ready to go. I can redrill the bolt pattern accordingly if need be or include PCD variant lugnuts whichever is preferred.

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?93619-Set-of-brand-new-staggered-19-quot-3-piece-wheels-No-wait-time-any-finish

nice wheels, id bee in for a set if the the price was lower. i believe that why the original poster and others turn to the BMW wheels is due to the price for a aftermarket set that looks decent and everyone doesn't have.

[Wheel Werkes]

nice wheels, id bee in for a set if the the price was lower. i believe that why the original poster and others turn to the BMW wheels is due to the price for a aftermarket set that looks decent and everyone doesn't have.

Ahhh got you. I can negotiate some on the price since they are mine. My dad has a set too, really well engineered wheel.

[carguykeith]

I think I've chimed in on several of these threads and had decided I wasn't going to any more, but here I go again... The only real post with actual engineering behind it was THIS (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?50804-BMW-Wheel-using-4-75-quot-Bolt-Pattern-Hubs-Discussion) one which assumes a perfectly stationary pressed in stud, which may be the case on pressed in studs but I kind of doubt it...

Just for prosperity I measured the deflection of my screw-in studs and it's 0.010 so i don't see where there is any real bending force in the stud itself. With that being said, I am not endorsing my actions of running BMW wheels on a Gm bolt pattern but I'm also saying and a professional mechanical engineer I haven't saw any reason not to.

[jpgolf14]

I think I've chimed in on several of these threads and had decided I wasn't going to any more, but here I go again... The only real post with actual engineering behind it was THIS (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?50804-BMW-Wheel-using-4-75-quot-Bolt-Pattern-Hubs-Discussion) one which assumes a perfectly stationary pressed in stud, which may be the case on pressed in studs but I kind of doubt it...

Just for prosperity I measured the deflection of my screw-in studs and it's 0.010 so i don't see where there is any real bending force in the stud itself. With that being said, I am not endorsing my actions of running BMW wheels on a Gm bolt pattern but I'm also saying and a professional mechanical engineer I haven't saw any reason not to.

The actual deflection should be somewhere around 0.013" at the bottom of the lug taper. At the bottom of the lug taper, you are only talking around 1" of the stud. Assuming we are using a 1/2" stud. If we idealize the stud as a beam, you are talking 2300lbs of side load on the stud. If you think that is negligible, that is fine, I do not. That 2300lbs is 14ksi of shear stress. Grade 8 bolts have a shear strength of around 90ksi.

Add on top of that the combined loading from the tensile stress of torquing the lug nut and the fact that the threads act as a stress riser. I'm not saying it will fail, I'm just saying you have seriously eaten into your margin of safety.

And finally, not directed at you, but to everyone. As Monza pointed out, the hub takes no load. Hub centric rings is one of the biggest crocks in the automotive industry. They do absolutely nothing except make it slightly easier to install the wheel. The wheel is held to the car from the clamping tension in the studs. The clamping force provides the normal force to create a frictional force in between the wheel and hub. The frictional force is what takes all the load on the wheel. The studs should NEVER be loaded in shear. This is a very basic rules on engineering, never load fasteners in shear. I can only think of one example where a bolt might be in shear on a car. And GM spec'd a very special bolt designed for the job in that application.

For those considering wobble nuts. In this case you do need to make sure you have a very good hub centric fit on the wheels to ensure your wheels are located correctly. As the wobble function removes the locating ability of the lug nuts. The hub centric fit just ensure the wheel is centered on the hub.

Honestly, if you just have to have BMW wheels, do what this guy did. For less than $100 in tools, you can be sure you are safe. I can't think of a good reason not to do it.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/wheels-tires/646545-bmw-wheel-bolt-pattern.html

John

[Daren]

Engineering an such speak

John

Fantastic points. Thanks for the engineering perspective on the matter. It's amazing at times how engineer's analysis can cut through the crap and make something confusing into a matter of simple common sense.

Lugs deal with tension forces and the hub/mounting surfaces deal with load and load distribution. It's obvious now.

Hub centric rings are merely another means to locating the wheel on the hub.

[ryeguy2006a]

Honestly, if you just have to have BMW wheels, do what this guy did. For less than $100 in tools, you can be sure you are safe. I can't think of a good reason not to do it.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/wheels-tires/646545-bmw-wheel-bolt-pattern.html

John
That is an awesome write-up. Nice find. That basically makes up my mind on BMW rims. For under $100 bucks and about 2 hours of time, that is worth while. Thanks for adding that.

[T_Raven]

Honestly, if you just have to have BMW wheels, do what this guy did. For less than $100 in tools, you can be sure you are safe. I can't think of a good reason not to do it.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/wheels-tires/646545-bmw-wheel-bolt-pattern.html

John


I've wondered about doing that but had never seen it done. I've got a set of Racing Hart wheels in the BMW pattern I want to put on one of my cars and I've been wondering how I can re-drill the taper. Now I know.