Suspension advice 1969 Camaro daily driver

[ccmc]

So I've been reading, and reading, and reading...
I drive my 1969 LS1 powered Camaro every day, rain or shine and I've already done some upgrades but it's just a bit too harsh for the terrible california surface streets and before I throw more parts at it I wanted to get some opinions on the best way to go.

What I have already:
Hotchkis upper control arms
Stock lowers (with old stock bushings)
Hotchkis TVS (minus the rear sway bar) - 2" (iir) lower front springs, 1.5" lower rear leafs
17" rims 8 front, 9.5 rear
245/55-17 front 275/50-17 rear tires
Edelbrock IAS shocks all the way around
LS1 4 wheel disc brakes (including master/w 8" dual booster)
Modern alignment (don't remember specs, but went with D. Pozzi's recommendations)
sound deadening (dynamat style)

I don't think I need a new subframe as it is a pure daily driver, mostly commuting short distances but I take it over 600 miles one way each year to visit family.
On smooth roads, like in Idaho, the car feels great, but locally the rough roads can be pretty rough. A friend has a 1969 Camaro with stockish springs (w/gulstrand mod) that are cut down and his car is much smoother on the road even with 18" wheels. I haven't driven it (just passengered once) so I don't know if it handles decently or not.

I am considering a torque arm for the rear
For the front I'm wondering if shocks/and or spring changes are necessary?
Stock springs? 500 lb in replacements?
Adjustable shocks? Or different brand, I had older bilstein's that I replaced with the current edelbrock IASs as the bilstiens were even harsher.
What about coil-overs?
Not averse to air-ride but don't really want to add a tank to the trunk as I use all of the available space when travelling.
Ride-tech tru turn and coil over?

What I'm looking for is a ride similar to a 4th gen camaro or a G35 with sport suspension. I've owned a BMW 325i, a G35 Coupe, 2000 Camaro, so I guess I'm looking for more of a sport/luxury ride taking into consideration the cr**py roads here.

[ccmc]

Forgot, budet is under 5K.

[Smoker03]

The first place I would look is the shocks you are using. The edelbrock shocks are known for ramping up very quickly and giving a harsh ride. Ride is very subjective, but with the Hotchkis TVS system it should ride great. I've installed quite a few and everyone has been happy and they all rode great. They either had QA1 adjustable shocks or the Hotchkis valved bilsteins. Hotchkis now has their new fox shock that you may want to look at as well.

[ccmc]

Thanks. I'll have to check out the new hotchkis shocks

[79-TA]

Make sure your shocks aren't randomly stiff . . . a lot of aftermarket shocks are overaggressive just so the buyer can feel the difference (even though they're way overdamped for their application.) The Hotchkis shocks, Bilsteins, should do a good job. Since shocks aren't hard to change out, maybe just buy a set of basic Monroe Sensatracs or something and swap in aggressive ones for events.

One thing you can do to help the ride before doing anything to the suspension is to go to a tire with more sidewall. Since you have "LS1" calipers, you probably can't go any smaller than a 17" wheel. A 15" wheel with a 60 series tire absorbs a lot more of the small road bumps . . . though you do have 55 series and 50 series tires already.

Past that, all you can do is soften the car. Go to a softer spring in the front, perhaps in the 350 lb in range and a stock style leaf spring.

I don't know that anyone makes a good progressive spring for 1st gens. They certainly don't make Delphi's crazy magnetically controlled dampers to just bolt right in.

Anti roll bars or sway bars also make the ride harsh. All they effectively do is tie both sides of the suspension together in order to resist roll. In doing this, when the right wheel hits a bump, the left wheel is also more upset with the stiffer sway bar.


My personal solution to this problem was to buy a Miata. It has excellent handling and braking like you might expect, but it also happens to be softly sprung and comfortable, which I was not expecting when I first started shopping for it.

[Rod]

we are running really close set ups, my suggestion is get adjustable shocks (QA1 or Ridetech) that will help the ride the most on the QA1's set them to 3 for the front and 2 for the rear, next change the lower arm the factory arm, what I noticed is the tube upper and stock lower combo makes the car darty, and then do the Guldstand on your car it changes the anti dive angle on the front suspension and that reduces bump impacts on the car

[ccmc]

Rod, Thanks, but I thought the hotchkis upper didn't need the gulstrand mod?
I already planned to replace the lowers, but I wanted to wait in case I should go coilover, but if I can get the quality of ride I'm looking for I won't switch to coilover just to switch.

I really like my set up and ride height and when the road is smooth the car rides nice and handles great! The BMW M3 Seats really help too :)

79-TA- thanks, I was considering the monroe sensa-trac route just to see if there is an obvious difference in ride before I posted this question. I had 15" ralley's with a lot of sidewall and there was no difference in the "harshness" of the ride on the local roads.

I'll try the shocks first and then consider softer springs if it's still a problem. Time to go comparison shopping.

[Rod]

Rod, Thanks, but I thought the hotchkis upper didn't need the gulstrand mod?


all tubular arms need the Guldstrand mod, the mod changes the pivot points, arms cant do that they correct (really just add) caster

[neki67]

Guldstrand mod is just a part of the camber curve fix, should combine with Tall Upper Ball joints.

Call Marcus @ SC&C. On top of that order the book he wrote: http://www.amazon.com/Mark-Savitske/e/B003NE2814

67259

[bret]

The book referenced above is an EXCELLENT resource for translating technical terms into real world application. It is one of the required reads for our sales and tech staff. It won't make you an engineer, but it will make your car faster and more fun.

[AmKenpo1]

I am planning a project like this also. I just finished reading the book and it was a huge help in understanding what I was looking for. Be sure to check out the Ridetech Q series shocks. I will be using Strange shocks on my project and I'm currently working out which suspension components to go with. The yellow Camaro in my Avatar will be the lucky victim. Good luck with your project and keep us posted.

Wil.

[AmKenpo1]

67263I am planning a project like this also. I just finished reading the book and it was a huge help in understanding what I was looking for. Be sure to check out the Ridetech Q series shocks. I will be using Strange shocks on my project and I'm currently working out which suspension components to go with. The yellow Camaro in my Avatar will be the lucky victim. Good luck with your project and keep us posted.

Wil.

[ccmc]

Thanks everyone. I planned on eventually getting the tall afx spindles so I don't have the tall ball joints right now.

Rick

[Tyler Beauregard]

Guldstrand mod is just a part of the camber curve fix, should combine with Tall Upper Ball joints.



Nope. Do not combine camber gain fixes. Do either the tall ball joints, or the Guldstrand mod, or the tall spindle. Do not put a tall pindle on a guldstrand modded frame with a tall ball joint upper control arm. Bad news when you have too much negative camber gain.

Pick one.

Tyler

[neki67]

Nope. Do not combine camber gain fixes. Do either the tall ball joints, or the Guldstrand mod, or the tall spindle. Do not put a tall pindle on a guldstrand modded frame with a tall ball joint upper control arm. Bad news when you have too much negative camber gain.

Pick one.
Tyler

Tyler,

as I understood it from Marcus, it all depends on the length of the TUBJ?! When I ordered mine from SC&C, Marcus asked me if I did the Guldstrand mod, he then selected the right TUBJ to go with it.

[rustomatic]

Better handling, for most of us = somewhat rough ride. Buy a used Cadillac for a break; they're cheap and soft, and will continue to involve you in interesting conversations at gas stations, but with different types...

Really, with white KYBs (Gas-A-Just, with extended travel--makes a good difference for useful operating range of shock), 600 pound coils (cut), and a pretty low ride height, my Falcon does not ride much more harshly than my '12 Honda Civic. I like this about the Civic...

The rear suspension is much easier to tune with some cheap, soft shocks, so long as they can cope with your spring rate; hard shocks in back are nothing but bad.

[coolwelder62]

I would pick a company Like RIDETECH and use all their frt.& rear componet's,Their coil over's will make a hugh differant's in the ride quality.Scott Mock Ridetech Dealer

[eric1967]

2x's Ridetech. This will give you the opportunity to go with 275 tire if you wish.

[68KMARO]

Sorry, I did not see the type of body bushings that you were using. Also what type of subframe connecters you are using. It seems like you have some great parts to grow with. See if you can bum a ride from someone in your area that has some of the parts that you were looking to use in your build. Just my 2 cents, good luck.

rich

[ccmc]

Aluminum body bushings and speed tech subframe connectors, I think. They're the bolt in ones.

Just bought the rims and tires this year so I could do the ls1 brakes all around.

If I wanted a caddy I'd be driving a caddy.

As I said. The ride is fine on smooth to normal roads, but with the f'd up roads locally the bumps and potholes are a bit to jarring. And I already have the hotchkis springs that apparently are around 500 or 600 lb in springs. I don't want to just throw parts at it that's why I was asking suggestions as to the shocks or springs.

I'll test the shocks soon with some cheap sensa tracs. If there is an obvious difference I'll get some adjustable ones and sell the edelbrocks and sensa tracs. But I don't want to drop 500+ for shocks without trying a 100+ set first. If I dont feel a difference with the shocks then I'll have to consider a softer spring or coilovers.

Keep the ideas coming. I'm open to suggestions. As I stated earlier, just trying to get a bit more compliance, not a plush ride.

[Smoker03]

You are running a relatively light spring rate right now, so it's in the shocks. Either go QA1's or the Hotchkis shocks that are valved for the Hotchkis springs

[ccmc]

Thanks, it will be a couple of weeks before I test the shocks. I'm finishing up my 3rd gen column swap and making an adapter for the intermittent wipers to go with it. So far its working great except my delays are all 2 seconds. Not shorter or faster depending on position. I'm assuming I need to match the motor to the switch in the column.

[Rod]

I notice that some say not to run the Guldstrand and Tall spindles ( I agree) but you can run the tall ball joints with the guldstrand the upper tall ball joints alone arent enough to fix the positive camber that happens when racing, below here you can see my car with the tall balljoints without the Guldstrand and the wheel goes slightly positive under video analysis

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

after the Guldstrand mod the car turns in better, and in all the videos and pictures under heavy turns the wheel tilts negative

[Tyler Beauregard]

I didn't realize that SC&C offered multiple heights of tall upper ball joints for F bodies. They used to only have one and Marcus typically would tell us to only run one or the other.

Without first addressing the geometry of the front suspension, adding other parts isn't going to really help fix the car. I'll quote an old post of mine to explain; this reply was in reference to Hotchkis TVS kit and the rear sway bar.


Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positve caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effeciveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a streering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experince it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly aquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency manuevers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without duing your due dilegence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler

[ccmc]

Thanks Tyler!
As you can see, I'm slowly working my way up with no rear sway bar, springs, and upper tubular arm.
I didn't realize I still needed to work on the negative camber gain, I was planning on the tall spindle but have to wait until next year for that, but the gulstrand mod or tall ball joints can be done fairly easily so I can do that pretty soon, then get it aligned again. I already run the modern alignement and KDW tires.
The springs and shocks are what I'm trying to determine now without throwing money at parts just to replace them (as we've all done before!) That's why I'm attempting to determine shock choice and if my Hotchkis springs are too stiff too.

[ccmc]

Just to follow up for anyone that was reading this thread.

I finally got around to installing some Monroe sensa-trac shocks and there is a definite difference in the ride between these shocks and the Edelbrock IAS shocks. The ride is smoother but still firm.

There is a noticeable difference. Seat of the pants feel I'd say the softer shocks are about 25% less harsh.

Thanks everyone for your input. Now on to getting rid of all the little squeaks and rattles and finishing the dynomat installation under the front seats.

Rick

[77thor]

This is definitely the ONLY "daily-driver" 69 Camaro that I have ever heard about.
:)
Kudos.

[1989GTA]

Thanks for the update. I can apply some of his to my car.

[68KMARO]

Hey Rick,

Any pictures of your m3 seats mounted in your car?

rich

[ccmc]

rich, didn't see the post, I typically use the mobile app to access the site.

What did you want pictures of? the mounts or how they look in the car?

[Henesian]

I'm surprised no one has suggested Koni shocks all around. They're 40/60ish valving configuration is great for the street. Having less compression makes the car more compliant around bumps, but still has the rebound stiffness to support that kind of spring rate. I'm not sure how the new ones are, but I have an original 30 year old set of front Special D's, and they made my car feel like I had 255/60/15s on it again with 700 lb/in springs, even though I have 275/40/17s on the car all around. But, on a 2nd Gen F-Body.

[BMR Sales]

I am considering a torque arm for the rear



Hey Rick, we offer bolt on Torque Arm kits for 67-81 F-Bodies with 10 bolt & 12 bolt rears or even a kit that comes with a Ford 9" that has been jigged and bracketed to bolt in as well.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/kitpricing-1.jpg



The guys who want a Ford 9" can order a kit that includes a bare Strange housing for $600 more. Take a look at the link below detailing an install that a PT.com member there completed with our Ford 9 in. kit in his 1973 Firebird:

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?80483-BMR-Torque-Arm-Installed-on-my-73-Firebird/page2&highlight=TORQUE+ARM



Here is a video of a customer with a 67 Camaro who got 2nd place in Street Machine Class at '12 Kansas Good Guys. He was running air over shocks and had not adjusted the roll center via Watt’s Link….. he should be able to cut about 2 seconds off this time just by addressing these issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9qK5GLD-Q&feature=relmfu


Here is a VERY informative tech article written by our R&D manager explaining what it does:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/chassis/suspension_steering/1206chp_torque_arm_suspension_systems/



Here is a link to the recent Two Guys garage that gives you a visual look at what our Torque Arm Suspension does:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60dENFWPFY