Air suspension vs lowering springs

[AztecLord]

I bought my 66 Impala convertible with airbags already installed in it, stock rear shocks, no front external shocks. It also had 13" fake Daytons which lasted about 2 days with me. It now sits on 15-8 and 15-7 Rally's with BFGs. Next step is front power disc brake conversion and possibly trading out bag system for springs.

My question is whether add shocks and keep bags, or swap out everything?

It is also my daily driver so I am not going all-out, but I do want better drive ability and handling.

thanks for any and all advice

[jlcustomz]

Haven't personally done airride yet, although I did a ton of online research on it. Many claim stiff bags such as slam specialties can be ok with no shocks, (NOTon this forum), I,d personally add outboard shocks. System should have one valve per wheel to add air & another to release(4-corner handling, not 2 corner). Ride height should be setup for bags to be in the center of their range.

Bottom line, airride is great when done right, no telling how yours is done or who's parts. Since you already have it, I'd see to making it correct.

Ridetech is a sponser here. Although I wouldn,t pay their price for their basic setup knowing what I know & can do, their setups are done to what will ride & handle properly. Spend more for their arms, swaybars, etc & it'll be very competitive against springs as they continually prove at tracks. I,d start by finding out exactly what you have part by part, & compare to what ridetech does & go from there.
Ps, airbagit.com is junk. Other brands can be great if all setup right, it being done without front shocks is a red flag for anyone on this forum site.

[MonzaRacer]

Honestly Look at Ridetech, they have both air ride AND coil over setups.
As for performance Bret took the hotchkis throw down that air ride would never make a useful or useable handling suspension, YET the Ridetech stuff just works, and now they are into "inhouse" designed shocks over buying other tech and making it work. ask anyone on the new shocks performance, especially the Coil Overs.
I have sir ride on my 78 C10 and it did handle with a well set up Eibach/ GY F1 2001 Camaro in a VERY twisty road, and all I had were Firestone 255/70 Indy 500s and Hoosier Radial DT 30x9.5 tires. Stock sway bar on front coolride and parallel 4 link in back, AND only the blue Monroe setup shocks for the old C10 cool ride frontend and Gabriel truck shocks in back.
For a cushyier ride with touch of paddle switch or button Air kicks ass, for all out competition suspensipn you might hink of CoilOver setup. BUT adjustable shocks make more sense than anything.
Cool part about air ride is that also you can "lay the car out" when parking. kind of hard to steel wheels if jacks wont go under it. And it really looks cool. Neat thing is seing people face if you have a remote to bring it to ride height as you walk up.
Oh and my first Air Ride stuff came in rear springs with individual manual fill lines on my 71 Monte just before 98 East Coast Power tour, I loaded the CRAP out of that car for trip planning for most issues. Both trunk and rear seat had tools, jack,spare parts, luggage for me and my buddy. Rode awesome and handled even better.
Neat part about properly (ie Ridetech) air ride is it ISNT a fair ground cruiser/bounce system.
IT IS an intelligently designed, fully integrated system that installs with only moderate mods/ medium skills and is literally almost bulletproof as they have BEAT these parts to prove them and improve thier designs.
Its no compromise in my opinion and my Caprice is getting Cool Ride in spring, and Vette brakes, the big block here soon. ETC. Monza is getting a hybrid, CoilOver front AirRide Rear Im thinking. Depends on funds and time frame.

[MonzaRacer]

Honestly Look at Ridetech, they have both air ride AND coil over setups.
As for performance Bret took the hotchkis throw down that air ride would never make a useful or useable handling suspension, YET the Ridetech stuff just works, and now they are into "inhouse" designed shocks over buying other tech and making it work. ask anyone on the new shocks performance, especially the Coil Overs.
I have sir ride on my 78 C10 and it did handle with a well set up Eibach/ GY F1 2001 Camaro in a VERY twisty road, and all I had were Firestone 255/70 Indy 500s and Hoosier Radial DT 30x9.5 tires. Stock sway bar on front coolride and parallel 4 link in back, AND only the blue Monroe setup shocks for the old C10 cool ride frontend and Gabriel truck shocks in back.
For a cushyier ride with touch of paddle switch or button Air kicks ass, for all out competition suspensipn you might hink of CoilOver setup. BUT adjustable shocks make more sense than anything.
Cool part about air ride is that also you can "lay the car out" when parking. kind of hard to steel wheels if jacks wont go under it. And it really looks cool. Neat thing is seing people face if you have a remote to bring it to ride height as you walk up.
Oh and my first Air Ride stuff came in rear springs with individual manual fill lines on my 71 Monte just before 98 East Coast Power tour, I loaded the CRAP out of that car for trip planning for most issues. Both trunk and rear seat had tools, jack,spare parts, luggage for me and my buddy. Rode awesome and handled even better.
Neat part about properly (ie Ridetech) air ride is it ISNT a fair ground cruiser/bounce system.
IT IS an intelligently designed, fully integrated system that installs with only moderate mods/ medium skills and is literally almost bulletproof as they have BEAT these parts to prove them and improve thier designs.
Its no compromise in my opinion and my Caprice is getting Cool Ride in spring, and Vette brakes, the big block here soon. ETC. Monza is getting a hybrid, CoilOver front AirRide Rear Im thinking. Depends on funds and time frame.

[Rod]

Pictures?

[MonzaRacer]

Here is my truck all laid out:

[BigMikeIndy]

Feel free to give me a call or shoot me a email with pics of how the car is currently setup. My direct line is 812-481-4732 or email me at [email protected] . I would be glad to help you get it figured out.

[mikedc]

Older air suspension = bling that costs a lot of money, adds complication, and handles worse.


Newer air suspension = bling that costs a lot of money, adds complication, and can handle either the same or worse.


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[mild2wildpaintngraphics]

Older air suspension = bling that costs a lot of money, adds complication, and handles worse.


Newer air suspension = bling that costs a lot of money, adds complication, and can handle either the same or worse.


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I will agree, there is some extra cost with the air management system. Most people who throw stones at air suspension have never utilized it. Part of having an air suspension is proper installation and understanding it. My 70 GSX replica has Ridetech air suspension and handles awesome, and I have just begun tuning. Check out Ridetech's stable of rides and how well they perform in autocross and competition. Not to mention Ridetech's awesome products and service.

[BigMikeIndy]

Mikedc, I invite you for a ride at any event we are at with the 66 Chevelle or our Mustang in the following videos. Or any of our other air suspension equipped rides.

There are plenty of "homebuilt" air kits out there, and yes most of them are less than par when it comes to Handling, Ride, & Quality. But a blanket comment like that is very extreme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmSVYoR_COw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Is4FiReWCk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWkI9Myty2Q

[mikedc]

Extreme blanket comment? Yeah I'm guilty of that. But I think the best an air-ride system can do for handling is not be worse than what can be done with conventional springs.

If we're comparing a nice modern air-ride system to a worn out 40yo stock suspension? Then yes, I'm sure the air-ride system can probably whup it every which way from Sunday. But compared to a decent overhauled regular setup I don't think the gains are there. I still have yet to see a good reason for air-ride setups other than to ride around way too low just for looks half the time.


If you pump up the air pressure high to stiffen up the springs, then at best you've got something equivalent to regular springs. Or slightly worse, because they are fairly progressive in rate. Progressive rate springs are popular on the street but they are generally not thought to be a good thing for handling. (And progressive springs can also be gotten just as easily without and air system if you want them.)

If you take air pressure out of the system to soften up the ride half the time, then you also lose ride height. But here's the rub - if the ride height had practical room to spare, then why didn't you take conventional springs and set it that low to begin with, and reap the additional handling benefits of that?

So IMHO the only way for adjustable air pressure setup to match conventional springs is for it to only have one possible setting. And once you've given up the adjustability . . .

[MonzaRacer]

First of all Mike, go ride around a track with Bret or one of the guys in a Ridetech car. Most cars kits are set to give a basic drop/stance and give good driveability AND handling. That POS truck I posted above was nearly rubbing bumpers with an 01 Camaro WITH good parts and sticky F1 rubber I had installed AND I did his alignment.
My truck was built on budget, I used a parallel 4 link, made plates to weld the front brackets too and replaced the front spring mounts, fabed my own upper shock mount, made my own bracket for the panhard bar and never got a REAL set of good tires on it to see just how good it would handle. The old blue Monroe shocks worked well, I ran 67 to 72 C10 rear shocks from truck arm trucks.
now also forget what you THINK you know about air springs. BIG springs hold up semis. Properly speced loadrange srpings come with Ridetech kits, adjusting goes from there. As for ride height, well that why most mounts do have some adjustability. Also you CAN install much as I did in rear of my truck, in a manner NOT addressed by them. I built my truck in Sept 04 over Labor day, a year later redid one spring mount on Left rear. I had a few minor growing pains but got it going and drove it till Dec 08.
Carb issues pulled it from road and its only been off road before for engine swap on my vacationin 05. Heck I use AC compressors for my air supply and I have an extra air hose set up as I used to use it to air up tires, run a impact couple times, kind of hard with only 5 gal tank but it worked.
And for the record I believe Bret will agree(namely as I remember seeing a youtube vid he stated same thing) the difference from track pressure and street pressure is any where from 1 lb to 10 lbs. You are probably thinking of an over sized bagged slam truck that bounces and need 150 psi to sit ok for driving. If I remember my truck took like 95 to 100 on rt frt and 85 to 90 on left and about 80 to 100 in back nad handled GREAT. My biggest issue was keeping my rear shocks tight. My cross member is square tubing and I really need to put welded in tubes so it doesnt "give" after I tighten my bolts.
But I may need to get it running here again soon as it now has differnt carb on it, and might swap in a Fays2 Watts link type set up and some heavier air springs as I really want to be able to tow more with it and I "feel" I am at limits with my 9000 series bags,, may just be me needing to swap to taller bag or move lower mount UP.
And get new shock for her as the old ones had well over 100k miles on them over 4 yrs.
Also biggest issue with lowering springs is that you HAVE to increase the spring rate to keep car up with the shorter installed height. Air Springs are so much easier to adjust I CAN run it high but it gets very firm, I can run it low but it bottoms out. wish I had more pics of it at different heights and before. The truck handles much better, actually tows great as is and like I said it was keeping up with a Camaro, show me a fair ground cruiser that does that.
Air springs get progressivily stiffer as you load them, metal springs stay same rate or have limited progressive rate.
and one or two pounds can change cars manners on road or track, steel springs,,,,well you get what came our of the box and they sag over time.
Oh and Iwish someone from Ridetech would show the STOCK vehicles they bought and track tested then swapped in Air Ride. Sir you would be astounded at the differences in just the way they LOOKED running the course.
Heck they DROVE an 05 Mustang in Forza Motorsport challenge BENT in last race and still ran good,,,That Angela Cope can drive thats for sure.
I know the one car was Camaro but forget which year it was 4th gen I know that, thought they did Mustang too but memory fails me.
You REALLY need to ride in thier cars at a track day,,then come back and tell us it doesnt work,,,the people who OWN it on our cars/trucks.

[bret]

Extreme blanket comment? Yeah I'm guilty of that. But I think the best an air-ride system can do for handling is not be worse than what can be done with conventional springs.

If we're comparing a nice modern air-ride system to a worn out 40yo stock suspension? Then yes, I'm sure the air-ride system can probably whup it every which way from Sunday. But compared to a decent overhauled regular setup I don't think the gains are there. I still have yet to see a good reason for air-ride setups other than to ride around way too low just for looks half the time.


If you pump up the air pressure high to stiffen up the springs, then at best you've got something equivalent to regular springs. Or slightly worse, because they are fairly progressive in rate. Progressive rate springs are popular on the street but they are generally not thought to be a good thing for handling. (And progressive springs can also be gotten just as easily without and air system if you want them.)

If you take air pressure out of the system to soften up the ride half the time, then you also lose ride height. But here's the rub - if the ride height had practical room to spare, then why didn't you take conventional springs and set it that low to begin with, and reap the additional handling benefits of that?

So IMHO the only way for adjustable air pressure setup to match conventional springs is for it to only have one possible setting. And once you've given up the adjustability . . .


I respect your opinion on this, it's one shared by many, especially if they have not worked with an air suspension directly, but...I have to disagree.

The ride quality and handling characteristics of a vehicle are influenced by several things:

1. suspension geometry - this won't change for an airspring or a mechanical spring, BUT...with an airspring you can alter the ride height of the vehicle [within a narrow range] to affect camber and caster settings to fine tune handling...a nice tuning tool at the track and one I use all the time at the autocross events. Its almost an unfair advantage. In general, I usually lower the car slightly to improve handling. This gives me a little more camber and usually increased front traction [something a typically nose heavy musclecar craves].

2. tires - no change from air to mechanical suspension...it is what it is for a given tire. tuning pressures can have some effect on ride quality and traction, but its small compared to the other variables.

3. spring rate - A airspring spring rate is inherently progressive...meaning that the farther you compress it, the stiffer the spring rate gets. This can be minimized or even negated with some airspring designs, but we use that natural progression as an advantage. With a mechanical spring that is not adjsutable, this progressive spring rate is just another troublesome variable to tune around. With an airpsring, by virtue of its adjustability, it becomes a tuning tool that can quickly get a vehicle adjusted for the track, the driving style...and the drivers preference. The downside: with anything adjustable, it is possible to adjust yourself into oblivion. As indicated above, common perception is that a stiffer spring is "better". Not neccessarily so. Sometimes the car wants a softer spring rate to keep the tires in contact with the road. Also, the natural progression of the air suspension spring rate [again, within a narrow range] will overcome the effects of a slightly lower air pressure.

4. sway bars - 2 schools of thought on this one...1. stiff spring/soft bar 2. soft spring/stiff bar I like the soft spring/stiff bar theory. It allows a better ride quality on the street, it more tunable for the track, and is absolutely more agreeable with a slick track or, more importantly, the limited traction of the street tires that most of us use on our cars.

5. shock forces - IF ride quality is the main or only performance criteria, a good quality fixed valve shock is a great choice. But since most anyone reading this has additional performance demands...a rebound adjustable shock is crucial. The progressiveness of an airpsring is best optimized by a heavier than normal rebound resistance from the shock. Since the airspring spring rate is adjsutable, the shock really needs to be as well.

It is obviously possible to optimize a vehicles suspension with mechanical springs...race teams and OEM manufacturers do it all the time. It is a process of changing components...springs, shock valving, swaybars...to get the car to perform the way you want it to. The problem is, who among us has the talent, ambition, or resources to engage in a program to test and refine these parameters? Some, yes. Most, not so much. AND...if you change any of the typical "hard parameters"...vehicle weight, track conditions, power, tires...you can start all over to "optimize" the combination. This optimization is much easier and quicker done with an air suspension.

I'll concede the complication factor relevant to the compressor/control system...it does cost some money, and it will add to installation time. Everyone has their own threshhold of pain for that. I'll also concede that the tuning possibilities can be daunting...some people just want something they can bolt on and drive the car. If that is the case, any good suspension manufacturer [including RideTech] will have a "pre packaged" solution for a specific model car. We've taken car of selecting not only the proper mounting bracketry, but the correct swaybars and shocks as well.

I think a lot of the perception that air suspension is too soft/too expensive/too complicated/inferior has been at the hands of all the "airbag salesmen" who offered the lowest price on these components with little or no regard to how they would work together as a system. Imagine if you bought springs [of unknown rate] from one low price vendor, shocks [also uf unknown specs] from another vendor, and swaybars [again, of unknown specs] from another vendor. ...or maybe from the same vendor who knew nothing about suspensions but figured" they all look alike".
I'm not saying we're the only air suspension manufacturer who has this stuff figured out, but I am saying that there are a whole lot more that don't than do. As with any critical project...ask questions...educate yourself...then decide.

We have become known for our success with air suspension since 1996. About 3 years ago we introduced our coilover suspensions, so many perceived that we "finally agreed" that coils were better. In reality, we've been running coils on some of our cars to a. further refine the coilover tuning, and b. to promote our newest product. Now that we've done that, look for ShockWaves to show up on the 48 Hour Camaro new year and probably the 33 Ford as well. The 33 finished 3rd at Optima this year...we'll see how we do with ShockWaves next year!

Coils have their place...we sell as many coilovers as ShockWaves now. For the guy who wants to bolt it on and forget it, who is not concerned with ride height adjustment, whose car will not encounter any significant load change [passengers, cargo, trailer, etc.] for the guy who doesn't want to spend the money...coilsprings work fine and can tuned to a high level.
For the guys who want it all...ride height adjustment, ride quality, track performance, adjustability for various loads...an airspring is the best way to accommodate all of this with NO compromise in any area.

[bret]

I bought my 66 Impala convertible with airbags already installed in it, stock rear shocks, no front external shocks. It also had 13" fake Daytons which lasted about 2 days with me. It now sits on 15-8 and 15-7 Rally's with BFGs. Next step is front power disc brake conversion and possibly trading out bag system for springs.

My question is whether add shocks and keep bags, or swap out everything?

It is also my daily driver so I am not going all-out, but I do want better drive ability and handling.

thanks for any and all advice

In reference to your original question, you may not have to swap out all of your existing stuff to create a good air suspension. If you call and talk to Mike, Rodney, Darren, or any of the other guys on the tech line, we can identify and evaluate what you have and exactly what you'll need to get you going...for coil OR air suspension.

And thanks for bringing all this up...I kind of like talking about it :)

[jlcustomz]

Another common arguement with air vs springs is weight. While air tanks & compressors obviously add weight, Air bags weigh less than coil springs, which is also unsprung weight..On an older leaf spring vehicle, converting to suspension arms & bags can easily add up to less overall weight for an air system. Hard to argue with that as a plus.

[Daren]

I bought my 66 Impala convertible with airbags already installed in it, stock rear shocks, no front external shocks. It also had 13" fake Daytons which lasted about 2 days with me. It now sits on 15-8 and 15-7 Rally's with BFGs. Next step is front power disc brake conversion and possibly trading out bag system for springs.

My question is whether add shocks and keep bags, or swap out everything?

It is also my daily driver so I am not going all-out, but I do want better drive ability and handling.

thanks for any and all advice


I imagine you had to pay a bit of a price premium to pick up a bagged Impala vs a non bagged car. If the car was cheap then maybe you can build it and sell for a bit of profit? It'd help to keep the bags in if that were the case.

Was the air ride suspension a high end install or a hack job? If it's a hack job then may not have any choice other than to keep the bags lest you spend big bucks fixing the car.

[Classic Nova & Performance]

Well done Bret! I totally agree.

Air suspension got a bad name when people didn't care about handling and only used the system to raise/lower the car. It used to be common place to use a two-path system with a 4 bag system. I opted to install 4-path systems to avoid what I called "air slosh". But, a lot of people looking only at the $$$$ didn't, as well as using the most inexpensive pieces they could find. The results were less than stellar.