CPP C5 spindles, any good ?

[rektek]

haven't seen a single thread, anyone using these yet ?

[killer69]

Interesting.
just something to think about............. you get what you pay for. when someone copies a product and can sell it at 20% of the original products price you are not comparing apples to apples.
it makes no mention of the material or country of origin. if any testing has been done. you decide it's you car and your money. they migth be good.

that's my .02 worth

[rektek]

"you decide it's you car and your money. they migth be good." tremendous insight Blake, I migth just try them

[MrQuick]

....

[chevelletiger]

Dropped in cpp this morning,bad customer service? I think not! Javier,and robert spent the time to show these spindles to me and had one of the engineers talk to me about them.there nodular cast iron,castings are made overseas but are finish machined in house on there haus cnc mill,stock spindle pin,but about over an ich taller then stock but i think a little taller robert and i put a stock spindle and looked taller then 1.00.i think there keeping the spec on the down low till they show it at sema.i held a stock spindle and the new tall c5 spindle and they feel the same weight.heres a pic i took when they where looking the other way!phil

[chevelletiger]

Btw i dont work for cpp i work down the street from these guys and they have always been super kind to me even if im not buying parts from them

[SSninja]

I would be VERY interested in a set of those for a G-body.

Currently the only budget option is a set of 98-02 2WD Blazer spindles with an adapter bracket and tall ball joints.

A cast taller spindle with integrated mounts for C5 calipers would be killer!

[chevelletiger]

I would be VERY interested in a set of those for a G-body.

Currently the only budget option is a set of 98-02 2WD Blazer spindles with an adapter bracket and tall ball joints.

A cast taller spindle with integrated mounts for C5 calipers would be killer!
There 269.00 a pr plus 79.00 each for the bearings and hub each.

[SSninja]

I don't see a G-body application listed, only F and A body.

[TitoJones]

This just pisses me off.

By the way, the AFX spindle package has been available for the G body platform since 2007 from ATS/SpeedTech, and has been around for the AFX body cars since 2005. Talk about a blatant ATS design ripoff there. I'll bet I can tell you the specs before SEMA;

My predictions:

1.4" taller than stock
7/8" ride height drop
Revised steering arm position to help with bumpsteer

They took an AFX forging, blocked up areas of it, and cast it in taiwan out of steel instead of aluminum.

If you want to support a company like CPP, put your money in this product. Here is what will eventually happen:

The cool innovative original parts you all lust after will suddenly no longer be designed, or produced. All the small companies that think of this stuff, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars creating it in R&D, testing, engineering, destructive testing, race programs, tuning it, and marketing it to you will be bankrupt, because a bigger uncreative rip off company like CPP will steal it, knock it off at a fifth of the cost, make it in China (ever wonder why we have no jobs in the US? We outsourced our entire infrastructure overseas) and sell it for cheaper to the consumer. We call it capitalism. I call it the death of America.

To sum up-

CPP rip off
ATS originator

Support which ever product you think deserves to recoup the money invested in bringing the product to market; the one designed, engineered, manufactured, and machined entirely in the USA (ATS) or the one who outsourced all of this to China to make a profit margin of 95%.

Just keep in mind, you wouldn't be able to buy this rip off of I hadn't created it first for them to steal. Of course I'm not around designing products anymore because of instances like this... See where this industry is heading?

Tyler

[chevelletiger]

I undersand your points tyler but... Speed tech did the same deal with there articulink arm,do you remember rock runner control arms?same idea but different.im not saying im buying these that there the same ect.

[The GMR]

haven't seen a single thread, anyone using these yet ?


Here is the link to the packages we put together to complement the C5 /6 uprights.

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?92895-New-GMR-AFX-Upright-Packages

[The GMR]

If the Cpp units are not for you we have packages for the ATS / Speedtech products as well.

Here is one car with the front hubs / Baer 6piston.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-6wqge82Y8

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Jason

[MrQuick]

This is in fact the way of the US capitalist market place. Deregulation/ regulation has pushed it in the direction.

Tiger does have a point, speed tech (pre-Blake)was founded on the DSE control arm copy.

But let's look at the positive. Now all can afford the option and some will find out why it is good to buy an American product, even if it is from a Canadian company. Look at what bad craftsmanship has done for their control arms. I don't think anyone will buy another CCP arm set.

[chevelletiger]

Mrquick you know cpp's control arms are cut,machined,bent and tig welded in anaheim ca.? I have the lowers with tall howe lower ball joints,with tall upper bjs with spc uppers not a bad combo really,they have delrin bushings too ;-). I had the head engineer i work with,and he checked them out and thought they where quality parts,this coming from a guy that in his early yrs. Designed robotic welders and satellites so he knows his stuff.phil

[MrQuick]

you mean all the stuff we read on the interwebs is wrong? You lie.

[chevelletiger]

you mean all the stuff we read on the interwebs is wrong? You lie.

No lies.i know first hand when i went to there open house for 67-72 truck show and saw all the jigs and benders cnc machines ect very clean shop. You should check it out next time they have one ill let you know.btw i ve posted about this before and i joke saying there made in the usa by mexican's! I can say that im an american born mexican!phil

[chevelletiger]

I know what everybody says about there bad customer service,i called. Them today and got a rude sales guy,his exact words " i dont know im in sales not engineering"but the guys i deal with in the show room javier,robert,and the oldguy,i dont know his name! Are super cool dudes.what cpp really needs to do is hire better sales people.all therr arms are dom most if not all are tig welded.phil

[MrQuick]

No lies.i know first hand when i went to there open house for 67-72 truck show and saw all the jigs and benders cnc machines ect very clean shop. You should check it out next time they have one ill let you know.btw i ve posted about this before and i joke saying there made in the usa by mexican's! I can say that im an american born mexican!phil

Nice one, funny how that works hu? Can we just call the old guy Blue?

My real point was consumer beware, do your homework and not just the blabber on the web.

[CreepinDeth]

nevermind.....

[keithq69]

I know why Tyler is pissed, I agree with most of what he has to say.

The other side of the equation is that some people will just not or can't afford to spend the money on the aluminum AFX spindles.
Are they a superior product, no doubt. I really believe that people who buy the cheaper cast spindle were not going to buy the AFX.
People who spend the money on the best parts will continue to do that even when a cheaper parts is offered for the most part.

Also, if there was a market for a cast version then Speedtech should have filled that void, if they weren't interested in it then thats democracy at it's best, somebody else will supply the product if you don't.

I would still splurge for the AFX for sure, When you're trying to keep the weight down it doesn't happen with just one part. You need to have weight in mind with every part you replace.

Keith Quinn.

[killer69]

This is in fact the way of the US capitalist market place. Deregulation/ regulation has pushed it in the direction.

Tiger does have a point, speed tech (pre-Blake)was founded on the DSE control arm copy.

But let's look at the positive. Now all can afford the option and some will find out why it is good to buy an American product, even if it is from a Canadian company. Look at what bad craftsmanship has done for their control arms. I don't think anyone will buy another CCP arm set.

Just to clarify.......... Pre Blake, the Speedtech arms were more a replica of the GW arms, even the bushings were simular, they have since been changed and now I think the only resemblance is that they all fit Camaros.Chevelles ect.

To the post above about the Articulink arms and how they are the same as the Rock Runner control arms, again they are not the "SAME" they are simular they do the same job in a different application but if you actually pulled them appart every aspect is different. The DSE swivelink which is the Same idea is again totally different in construction if you looked at them side by side you might think they are a copy but they are not at all the same design.

I am not going to get into the discussion about the spindles any more than I have.
I will mention again incase anyone missed it, the AFX spindle as it is known industry wide has been upgraded from its original design by

The AFX Spindles are Forged Aluminum (not cast) in Texas then heat treated then ISO certified, then machined by a ISO certified machine shop in Las Vegas. Yes they come to Canada to be assembled and reshipped arround the world. Speedtech decided to Upgrade the material from 6061 to 7075 with a t53 heat treat. We have removed the ball joint inserts which adds strength to the spindle aswell. Our hubs are the SAME ones GM gets for the Corvette, this makes the AFX spindle over 25% stronger than the previous version and approximately 35% stronger than the GM Corvette pressure cast spindle. As well as the geometry improvements that were incorporated. just a little more information for you.

Thank you

[Twentyover]

..................

The other side of the equation is that some people will just not or can't afford to spend the money on the aluminum AFX spindles.
Are they a superior product, no doubt. I really believe that people who buy the cheaper cast spindle were not going to buy the AFX.
People who spend the money on the best parts will continue to do that even when a cheaper parts is offered for the most part.

........................

Keith Quinn.

Respectfully disagree with you.

Those that want to build something special will continue to do so, but only build for themselves, There will be no innovation for markets like pro-touring- there will be no business case manufacturing high end parts that trickles down to the less expensive knockoffs. There will be a couple dozen guys like Stielow and the Tucker's and the Pozzi's who build their own parts for their own use; and the rest of us who wish and dream and jerk off looking at the cool, custom unobtainable stuff that show up in the pages of magazines and the internet because we don't have the skills to fab one off pieces ourselves.

[chevelletiger]

What i was getting at blake is the fact this cast spindle is the same as a an afx in the fact that its a spindle just like the articulick arms are the same with there 1-1/4 thread they articulate on as the rock runner arms do,a fact.know can you claim your the god of all control arms of coarse not;thats the point im getting at and as for dse having a patent on "the swviel link"thats the name not the idea because in manufacturing that design of using a shaft with a bronze bushing has been used for more than a hundred yrs.it ls the name they can sue about just as tyler should do too cpp for doing on there ebay store.for the record my intentions for posting the pic of the spindle was for the op because i was going there on my way to work, not to push this spindle.

[killer69]

What i was getting at blake is the fact this cast spindle is the same as a an afx in the fact that its a spindle just like the articulick arms are the same with there 1-1/4 thread they articulate on as the rock runner arms do,a fact.know can you claim your the god of all control arms of coarse not;thats the point im getting at and as for dse having a patent on "the swviel link"thats the name not the idea because in manufacturing that design of using a shaft with a bronze bushing has been used for more than a hundred yrs.it ls the name they can sue about just as tyler should do too cpp for doing on there ebay store.for the record my intentions for posting the pic of the spindle was for the op because i was going there on my way to work, not to push this spindle.

I totally get it, perhaps i just didn't read it the way you just expaned it. Clarification is GOOD.

[MrQuick]

That 2nd gen spindle is for sure innovative. Right?

[The GMR]

That 2nd gen spindle is for sure innovative. Right?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I think so, I have yet to see anyone produce these.

[chevelletiger]

I totally get it, perhaps i just didn't read it the way you just expaned it. Clarification is GOOD.
Alot of times for me i dont explain myself very good when i type.sometimes i read stuff and take it the wrong way ect.have a good night blake.phil

[killer69]

That 2nd gen spindle is for sure innovative. Right?

Not really as Speedtech / ATS has had one for over a year. here is the list of models covered
67-69 Camaro with ANY tubular a arms
70-81 Camaro With Speedtech Specific control arms and steering arm.
77-87 G Bodies Regal, Malibu etc with specific steering arms any tubular arms
91-96 B Body specific tubular control arms and steering arms

[keithq69]

Twentyover, I'm not sure I understand what your point was.

What I was trying to say is that people who can afford to buy the AFX spindle will still but it. People who can't afford it will buy the cast or stay with stock.
I'm willing to bet that Speed Tech still sells out on the AFX spindles.
Would I buy the one that's s knockoff? No.

[chevelletiger]

Twentyover, I'm not sure I understand what your point was.

What I was trying to say is that people who can afford to buy the AFX spindle will still buy it. People who can't afford it will buy the cast or stay with stock.
I'm willing to bet that Speed Tech still sells out on the AFX spindles.
Would I buy the one that's s knockoff? No.
I disagree with your comment of "cant afford"but in fact some people would rather have steel spindles over aluminum ones your making this into a "have and have nots".
steel,which for myself is why i might get these.i did speak with our engineer today. And he saw the picture of these uprights and said cast steel was plenty strong for its intended use,and he has never let me down with his massive amounts of knowledge and skills.

[69cutlassrkt]

If I was buying some I would rather have some lightweight aluminum spindles than steel. Chevelletiger I don't get why you would prefer steel over aluminum, I would understand if it was just cast aluminum or something.

[Nicks67GTO]

Question for Blake as well as any other vendor/innovator. If these are exact knockoffs of the AFX spindles and you originally designed, tested, and spent big money building the originals, just to have some chineese or mexican company copy your work and profit, why don't you guys get a patent on your parts? Is it very difficult? Costly? Time consuming?

[Jay@GMR]

I disagree with your comment of "cant afford"but in fact some people would rather have steel spindles over aluminum ones your making this into a "have and have nots".
steel,which for myself is why i might get these.i did speak with our engineer today. And he saw the picture of these uprights and said cast steel was plenty strong for its intended use,and he has never let me down with his massive amounts of knowledge and skills.

Phil, I agree with you/your engineer co-worker, there will be NO strength issues in our opinion with the CPP unit, in fact they are considerably stronger than stock units. Stock units do not have nearly the design/structure that these CPP units do, nor are the stock units even known to be failing..... even in race type usage.

One of the benefits of this material usage in my opinion being used by CPP is its rigidity (little to no deflection) which is very important as the upright gets "taller", and something that is sometimes overlooked but should becoming more important as we push our cars harder and harder..... its ability to also maintain its rigidity at higher temps as well. Believe it or not many higher end alloys will loose strength exponentially as they reach just a few hundered degrees (keep in mind that even mild driving will see 800-1000 degree rotor temps with track days sometimes upwards of 1500..... rotors transfer heat into attached hub body..... then hub body transfers heat directly to upright). I am no metallurgist and cannot speak for all Alloys accross the board, but this is my understanding on a few of the more popular ones I have looked into.

[killer69]

Question for Blake as well as any other vendor/innovator. If these are exact knockoffs of the AFX spindles and you originally designed, tested, and spent big money building the originals, just to have some chineese or mexican company copy your work and profit, why don't you guys get a patent on your parts? Is it very difficult? Costly? Time consuming?

short answer Yes.
and the amount that something needs to be altered by is minimal and then there is court and lawyers and time invested/ lost and it needs to be patented in every country and or worldwide, and even then China doesn't give a ???? about patents. so what is the point, if you had the profit margin on the part and were selling millions of them it would make sense.

[mikes2nd]

Competition is great. Free market rules, go Romney!

seriously though, I would bet there is a pretty nice profit on AFX spindles.

Its a farking spindle, its not rocket science. You can't patent a spindle, you would get laughed out of court.

Prior art... good bye. This is like the guy trying to patent flush mount windows... or Frenched headlights...

Someone right now is driving a new lambo or two with the AFX spindle profits I would bet...

sell 1000 or them at 1300$, thats 1.3 MILLION dollars... But no profit?

These guys are simply being reasonable about what they should charge. It looks like a quality product at a great price. No reason not to buy it.

I don't buy apple products either :)

I have seen this for 10 years... Someone meets the market desire and he is making a living off it, people grumble that his is way overcharging. Someone else says WOW there is a market for this at a reasonable price. Overcharger complains he can't live off make a custom part and he quits, goes back to his day job, grumbles about rip offs. I've seen it 10 times in car forums.

People line up on one side or another... safety claims are made, quality! That spindle is great although.

Myself I bought great spindles... c6 spindles for 35$ a side :) But had I not, I would have bought those.

Now someone make some reasonably priced FI gas tanks for abodies... for crying out loud those things are overpriced also...

[killer69]

Phil, I agree with you/your engineer co-worker, there will be NO strength issues in our opinion with the CPP unit, in fact they are considerably stronger than stock units. Stock units do not have nearly the design/structure that these CPP units do, nor are the stock units even known to be failing..... even in race type usage.

One of the benefits of this material usage in my opinion being used by CPP is its rigidity (little to no deflection) which is very important as the upright gets "taller", and something that is sometimes overlooked but should becoming more important as we push our cars harder and harder..... its ability to also maintain its rigidity at higher temps as well. Believe it or not many higher end alloys will loose strength exponentially as they reach just a few hundered degrees (keep in mind that even mild driving will see 800-1000 degree rotor temps with track days sometimes upwards of 1500..... rotors transfer heat into attached hub body..... then hub body transfers heat directly to upright). I am no metallurgist and cannot speak for all Alloys accross the board, but this is my understanding on a few of the more popular ones I have looked into.

I want to be clear here, I am not wanting to start anything, but when information comes out and it is not complete people read it as it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

This all sounds good Jay. with the exception of the way it has been written (when i read it) it kind of infers that the CPP units have been tested because it says " there will be NO strength issues in your, you/ engineers opinion" how have they been tested, and by who. You are likley correct but at this point it is just an opinion. I talk to lots of engineers, who have no idea what they are talking about. ( not infering this paticular engineer fits into that group, but just cuz ur an engineer doesn't mean you know how to drive a train)
You also infer that the Alloy parts "do" have deflection. All parts will deflect given enough force. That may be true, but do you have data to compare the two or is it just an opinion. The AFX spindle with stood 12 tons of pressure before the lower ball joint area started to deform. That was 6061 material not the upgraded 7075 which is 25% stronger which should equate to approx 15 tons or 30,000 lbs

Keep in mind that aluminum also disipates heat at a much greater rate than cast iron. I am also no metallurgist just so everyone is clear. what I do know (I talked to an engineer) is that if given two identical parts, one made of cast iron one made of heat treated 7075 aluminum the aluminum part will be stronger.

Which "more popular ones have you looked into?" it would be nice to know all the information as opposed to only the selective.

I think it just needs to be clear information out there when products are being compared that is all I am saying.

[killer69]

[QUOTE=mikes2nd;938369]Competition is great. Free market rules, go Romney!

seriously though, I would bet there is a pretty nice profit on AFX spindles.

Its a farking spindle, its not rocket science. You can't patent a spindle, you would get laughed out of court.

Prior art... good bye. This is like the guy trying to patent flush mount windows... or Frenched headlights...

Someone right now is driving a new lambo or two with the AFX spindle profits I would bet...

sell 1000 or them at 1300$, thats 1.3 MILLION dollars... But no profit?







LMFAO you really think someone is driving a lambo off the profits of the AFX spindle? it sure ain't ME!!! Honestly what do you think they cost to make? and how long do you think it takes to sell a 1000 and you have to take into consideration that a good portion are sold to dealers at less than retail price. so your math doesn't add up, you obviously do not run your own business otherwise you would know that is not how it works.
You should see my 97 Dodge pick up, it doesn't even have lambo doors or AC lol

[rfrankb4]

While I understand the bile directed at CPP because it does suck to have your market and general IDs assymilated by others when it reduces your potential profits.

Additionally, even though I have previously sworn never to buy anything from CPP due to some service failings, I firmly believe that this has the potential to be a superior product for MY PURPOSES.

I do not care one little bit about the shinney factor or the few lbs that are saved. I do however care about fatigue resistance that is inherently superior with steel over alum given a long enough time frame. Furthermore price matters. upgraded spindles are not quite worth 1k + brakes for my car purposes of frequent daily style usage.

Finally and most importantly to me personally is availability. I tried to order ATS spindles a little while ago and they were out of stock and had been for a extended time with no assurance on when they would be available. Since I am not so affulant that 1k+ is a negligable amount there was simply no way I would be willing to pay for a peice that is already overpriced for my usage purposes and not even have reasonable assurances on when I could plan to have it in my hands to install.

[rfrankb4]

So in short.
1) A product that is better suited for my desire of modern brakes and long term reliability given I do not care about weight.

2) Price that is a) better suited for my needs since weight doesnt matter. and b) much more easily affordable given my other financial obligations.

3) company that is better managed with respect to making the product available when I want to buy.

Only real downside if this product does not have any production flaws is the lack of support if it does not fit perfectly the first time.
3)

[Twentyover]

A large number of points proceeded or followed by "I think" or "I'll bet"

The AFX spindle proved so profitable that the originator had to close his business and sold the design (and presumably tooling) to try to recover his costs. A different design generated by a competitor has one known failure @ 800 miles (IIRC) w/o a published resolution. Now a third player comes in with a variant. GMR jumps in and calls it an AFX,which it's clearly not in the traditional sense of the word.

And so much incorrect information about the new part! It's made of steel! It's made of nodular cast iron! (I apologize to those of you without any metallurgical background,but cast iron and steel,while both based on iron, contain significantly different amounts of carbon, and have VERY failure characteristics and properties). Some one had a "head engineer" look at something and make an informed decision- Based on what? Show me the data.

Me, I'm looking at the sharp edged stress riser at a section change in a casting, and wondering how many cycles to failure- But I guess since some other guy said they were OK, I'm clearly just worrying over naught.

[Twentyover]

Twentyover, I'm not sure I understand what your point was.

What I was trying to say is that people who can afford to buy the AFX spindle will still but it. People who can't afford it will buy the cast or stay with stock.
I'm willing to bet that Speed Tech still sells out on the AFX spindles.
Would I buy the one that's s knockoff? No.


https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?92895-New-GMR-AFX-Upright-Packages


Please take note of Tyler's comments. He has an investment of a part of his life and treasure in this topic.

My point is that if innovators are not rewarded, they stop innovating. When they stop innovating, those who make reproductions have nothing to copy. And you and I are deprived of the improved products. I don't know how to make it more clear than this.

That said, In the interest of transparency, I do own a set of AFX spindles for the el Camino. If I wanted a cheaper spindle, I'd look at the Coleman tall impala spindle. an fit several variations of brakes and steering arms- lets me use a 15"wheel if I wanted

[chevelletiger]

F#%k this thread im done with it,how about them lakers?!

[Twentyover]

Based on the fact that aluminum has a lower fatigue rating then steel.that was his comment on the spindles.i never said he gave all the data but i trust his judgement,when i know for a fact hes an engineer not somebody i dont even know whos says there an engineer as youself.if you going to call me out on something i posted be a man and go by my name,not someone pal.really.

OK, chevelletiger, as you wish. I don't think much of your engineer declaring "he checked them out and thought they where quality parts" without anay apparent test data. What criteria did he use for evaluation? Where is the investigation into material? Casting voids? Density and composition? You apparently don't know what they are made of- in post #5 you call them nodular cast iron, now in #43they're steel, maybe the next post bubblegum?

Yes, aluminum has a fatigue limit, in addition to a fatigue life. And there's alot more to determination of the life of a part than the material's fatigue life. Fabrication technique (Forging produces an stronger part than casting by aligning grain structure and increasing material density), post-fabrication process (heat treating, machining operations,adding compressive surface stresses by process' like shot peening)- There are a number of factors involved in fatigue life beyond primary material.

You're correct, you don't know me, either as a person or my ability to technically critique a design. And that's fine with me.


Edit: chevelletiger has edited post 43 while I was responding to it.

[The GMR]

GMR jumps in and calls it an AFX,which it's clearly not in the traditional sense of the word.

Just to be clear. CPP calls it the AFX spindle, hence why I used the term. GMR did NOT name the part.

CPP and Speedtech / ATS call it a spindle, which is technically incorrect. They are uprights, the spindle is actually in the unit bearing that gets bolted to the upright. Stock Uprights do have the spindle attached, but they are not considered to be spindles. They are Uprights with spindles as opposed to C5/ C6 which is an upright with a bolt-on spindle. That is why I (GMR) used the term Upright combined with CPP's term "AFX". Hence.... "AFX Upright Packages"

Other then that, carry on! :cheers:

Jason

[chevelletiger]

Like ridetech that did testing on those cheap china spindles tooright?!i bet you believe they tested and machined to iso specs too.give me a break

[Jay@GMR]

I want to be clear here, I am not wanting to start anything, but when information comes out and it is not complete people read it as it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

This all sounds good Jay. with the exception of the way it has been written (when i read it) it kind of infers that the CPP units have been tested because it says " there will be NO strength issues in your, you/ engineers opinion" how have they been tested, and by who. You are likley correct but at this point it is just an opinion. I talk to lots of engineers, who have no idea what they are talking about. ( not infering this paticular engineer fits into that group, but just cuz ur an engineer doesn't mean you know how to drive a train)
You also infer that the Alloy parts "do" have deflection. All parts will deflect given enough force. That may be true, but do you have data to compare the two or is it just an opinion. The AFX spindle with stood 12 tons of pressure before the lower ball joint area started to deform. That was 6061 material not the upgraded 7075 which is 25% stronger which should equate to approx 15 tons or 30,000 lbs

Keep in mind that aluminum also disipates heat at a much greater rate than cast iron. I am also no metallurgist just so everyone is clear. what I do know (I talked to an engineer) is that if given two identical parts, one made of cast iron one made of heat treated 7075 aluminum the aluminum part will be stronger.

Which "more popular ones have you looked into?" it would be nice to know all the information as opposed to only the selective.

I think it just needs to be clear information out there when products are being compared that is all I am saying.


Killer69,

Not gonna go in the direction you have called me in. I stand by what I said and most can be verified by simple calls/research/common sense. I realize you are a little up tight at this point, but let GMR/CPP release a product with our opinions. We are simply pointing out benefits of this NEW product, that is why we sell it.... we like it. I would say GMR has more experience with the product than most at this point and we say it is good, take it or leave it. Have you held one yet? I have had the honor to inspect your spindle as well as CPP's upright, and both are nice pieces. If you are confident in your product than you will have nothing to worry about.... people will buy it.




Jay

[Twentyover]

Like ridetech that did testing on those cheap china spindles tooright?!i bet you believe they tested and machined to iso specs too.give me a break


I have no idea what testing Ridetech did. but I'm pretty sure someone "checked them out and thought they where quality parts"

My issue is your comments are are unsupported by any data. I don't know what testing CPP has done, I don't know what Ridetech did. I do know that parts can initially pass validation testing, and because the component supplier starts cutting corners, later parts will not. Lets see, where are CPP castings made? Same place that adds lead and cadmium to the paint in toys in happy meals? Thought so.


The real problem is that many aftermarket companies do not know how to establish an ongoing quality maintenance program with poor suppliers. They need to have an independent audit of product and process before they ship. Every lot. And they need to understand the process they are auditing. Too often not the case. More expensive? Yes. But remember you're paying 12-year-olds peanuts to pour that iron, or steel, or whatever it is.

This is now apparently personal between you and me, it appears you need to prove you're smarter. Fine,you win, I'm abandoning the thread.

[rektek]

I started this thread with a simple question regarding the CPP C5 spindle quality.
I'd like to apologize for the giant can of worms this has opened.
typically in my line of work, discussion creates good relations, this thread has not gone down that path.

when starting this thread I didn't know AFX from KFC, however, I do now and I agree with many of the posts. I have been a shop foreman for a european car dealer for over 22+ years.
I know a little bit about the trade and have worked with, [almost weekly] many engineers over my time.

My car: 1970 Skylark convertible, I purchased it 20+ years ago for far less than a set of AFX spindles.
[I generally call them steering knuckles.] it had a bad gearbox but was a clean ca built car, I have the box rebuilt, I slam a set of $75 front rotors, knuckles and calipers from something in the boneyard, 2nd gen Camero I think, I drive it as is for 10+ years and put it storage. I just removed it from storage, paint it still great and I'm looking for something better up front and will do some type of rear disc conversion. the car still has 14" wheels with 70 series tires on it, don't kill me on this--> soon to be 17" or 18" wheels.

my point is many of us are not AFX customers due to the pure cost, sure I can afford it but it would not be responsible to do so.. so I'm left with what else is out there if I want to make a change.
C5 may or may not be for me, I'm still undecided. I have't purchased a single thing from CPP so no relation there good or bad, it's been the dismantlers or Napa for parts.

China: mixed feelings here, I hate the fact that everything is manufactured in China now, one could write several long books on how we got there. their poor human rights record alone is enough to stop using them for manufacturing. if every time we picked up something that said "made in china" we just put it back and said no thanks, would this country be better off ?
Apple would sure not be happy about it. there was a time not too long ago if it was made in china it was crap.
that is no longer true, it might possibly still be crap, but it might be really well made. Chinese cars in the US, it's coming !


I hope the makers of the AFX spindles keep innovating, create exciting cool new stuff and maybe parts at different price points.
CPP seems to be the goat here but they shouldn't be, it would have been someone else and or there will be others.
AFX sues CPP, good luck with that, the only ones that win that battle are the lawyers.

have a great day,night where ever you're at.

[MrQuick]

China needs us we need China. Its the way it is. Take a closer look on how much product they buy from us. Its all horsetihs anyways. People will buy a cheaper product cause they could afford it. If you can afford it buy it. Its nice to have choice. caveat F'n emptor

[chevelletiger]

[QUOTE=Twentyover;938509]I have no idea what testing Ridetech did. but I'm pretty sure someone "checked them out and thought they where quality parts"

It shows as you keep quoting me on this,how much of an a-hole you are,if you read jays post above he also comments on the uprights being nice pcs. Because he saw them in person.and as for trying to prove im smarter than you it seems you as an uptight a-hole engineer all knowing want to prove your smarter than everyone.

[chevelletiger]

Sorry everybody for getting so hotheaded on this post

[killer69]

Killer69,

Not gonna go in the direction you have called me in. I stand by what I said and most can be verified by simple calls/research/common sense. I realize you are a little up tight at this point, but let GMR/CPP release a product with our opinions. We are simply pointing out benefits of this NEW product, that is why we sell it.... we like it. I would say GMR has more experience with the product than most at this point and we say it is good, take it or leave it. Have you held one yet? I have had the honor to inspect your spindle as well as CPP's upright, and both are nice pieces. If you are confident in your product than you will have nothing to worry about.... people will buy it.




Jay


Not calling anyone in any direction.
just trying to make sure all information is good and reliable.............. that's it

[chevelletiger]

Not calling anyone in any direction.
just trying to make sure all information is good and reliable.............. that's it

Ftr blake if in my posts if they read as if i was giving the impression your/tylers uprights where not great parts that have been tested you know the whole nine yards,
s,im sorry and its not what i was getting at and i was not talking down your parts or tyler..both of you guys do great stuff,and it is a shame tyler didnt patent his uprights.i hope both, your company and tyler have great success in all your endeavors.phil

[rfrankb4]

Not calling anyone in any direction.
just trying to make sure all information is good and reliable.............. that's it

There is no need to be disenginous here. It is clear you have a personal stake in the game and would love to see the new product fail. While I understand your frustration and am sure I would feel that same that is still not a pure motivation you are trying to sell it as.

CPP would have no chance in hell of taking any of your business if you had taken the simple steps of finding a way to produce a quality budget version of your item. You have the top end of this market on lock down. But for the majority of people an upgraded spindle is not worth the total cost that for me came to around 3k since I could not justify buying your awesome spindles and not going ahead and getting the nice brakes at the same time so I do not waste money replacing them later.

If you spend the effort to innovate and come out with a cast steel version of your spindle that is less than double the CPP price I woud chose your product over CPP every day of the week. However, since your business is focused on other areas and did not have the time/drive to fill that market I am excited someone steped in to take a shot.

[chevelletiger]

To clear up what these uprights are made of,there ductile iron,also referred to as nodular cast iron.yeah sorry greg you thought i was going to say bubblegum! Heh!heh! Im usually a super nice friendly person but hate guys behind a keyboard who want to start crap thats when im defensive.sorry pt.com buddys.phil

[TitoJones]

There is no need to be disenginous here. It is clear you have a personal stake in the game and would love to see the new product fail. While I understand your frustration and am sure I would feel that same that is still not a pure motivation you are trying to sell it as.

CPP would have no chance in hell of taking any of your business if you had taken the simple steps of finding a way to produce a quality budget version of your item. You have the top end of this market on lock down. But for the majority of people an upgraded spindle is not worth the total cost that for me came to around 3k since I could not justify buying your awesome spindles and not going ahead and getting the nice brakes at the same time so I do not waste money replacing them later.

If you spend the effort to innovate and come out with a cast steel version of your spindle that is less than double the CPP price I woud chose your product over CPP every day of the week. However, since your business is focused on other areas and did not have the time/drive to fill that market I am excited someone steped in to take a shot.
You really, really don't get it at all.

See that cheap ass made in china AFX replica? You know why it is affordable to the general populace? They have nothing invested in creating it. When a company doesn't have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in engineering, development, tooling, or testing they can release a product for mere pennies. That's why they target the most innovative high end products and copy them. The hard work and cash dumped into creating this part was already done for them on another company's dime. All they need to do is buy one, send it to China, change one thing and produce it for a few dollars.

This is my point-
You can't be first to market with a product like this and make it cheap. You have to recoup your investment of paid salaries of engineers, tool makers, machine shops, etc.
But CPP can do it because they haven't created a single innovative part or been first to market with anything. Everything they make is a copy of another company's hard work and money investment.
By supporting them you make the people who brought the innovation to market to be copied out of business.

If you don't see that as an issue plaguing this industry then you are part of the problem.

Blake's point in all this is that ATS produced hard test data to the public on engineering, geometry, and destructive testing. It is not an opinion at this point that the product is strong and proven.
To say others are just as good with zero data to back it up is speculation; which when worded articulately or by a supporting vendor becomes fact in the eyes of the Everyman.

Tyler

[rfrankb4]

You really, really don't get it at all.

See that cheap ass made in china AFX replica? You know why it is affordable to the general populace? They have nothing invested in creating it. When a company doesn't have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in engineering, development, tooling, or testing they can release a product for mere pennies. That's why they target the most innovative high end products and copy them. The hard work and cash dumped into creating this part was already done for them on another company's dime. All they need to do is buy one, send it to China, change one thing and produce it for a few dollars.

This is my point-
You can't be first to market with a product like this and make it cheap. You have to recoup your investment of paid salaries of engineers, tool makers, machine shops, etc.
But CPP can do it because they haven't created a single innovative part or been first to market with anything. Everything they make is a copy of another company's hard work and money investment.
By supporting them you make the people who brought the innovation to market to be copied out of business.

If you don't see that as an issue plaguing this industry then you are part of the problem.

Blake's point in all this is that ATS produced hard test data to the public on engineering, geometry, and destructive testing. It is not an opinion at this point that the product is strong and proven.
To say others are just as good with zero data to back it up is speculation; which when worded articulately or by a supporting vendor becomes fact in the eyes of the Everyman.

Tyler


On second thought you are 100% correct and it was only my lack of vision that prevented me from seeing it despite the fact that I have both direct business experience and way too much education.

It is now 100% clear to me that once Ford invented the moving assembly line and applied it to motor vehicles he and his successors in interest should be provided protection in perpetuity from others who might seek to build upon that innovation. Now that we have reached consensus on the point that you have astutely raised we just need to figure out how much we should all write our checks out for since we have been taking advantage of those ill gotten gains to our individual benefit without insuring compensation for the original idea indefinitely.


Additionally, since the ATS AFX spindle is an admitted rip off from the GM spindle design overarching themes and even the specific measurements in some places that took direct advantage of the money that GM spent developing that product we should make them write out a check. Sure the ATS spindles have some changes by incorporating the idea of a taller spindle for better geometry but even that was just a STOLEN idea from the late GM spindles again taking inappropriate advantage of the RnD spending by an uncompensated third party.

Moreover, I think we should also agree to fully disregard the fact that if we discount the parts of the spindle design that were the IP of GM such as general shape, improved geometry, mounting style of the hub assembly, and general size and shape required for retrofit to our cars then there appears to be no evidence what so ever that CPP did anything aside from acknowledge that the original was a good idea and attempt to make a competing product that is superior and fills a market niche that ATS has made absolutely no move whatsoever to fill.

In short the important part of your indignation that we should note is that we all need to find out how closely related we are to the originator of the wheel so we can get some of that money!!!!!

[rfrankb4]

The creator of that spindle for our cars did have a great idea. And it sucks he is frustrated but the truth of the mater is that the idea is only the first step. ATS had a corner on their market for many years. And the people in charge failed to take the steps to build a successful business to capitalize on that achievement leaving the market open for competitors who are willing to work to reduce the price point of the product and make it available to a wider market.

If they had any insight at all they would have to see this coming. I feel no sympathy whatsoever since they failed to utilize the market leader and sole producer status as an opportunity to keep innovating both on marginal improvements in their original product and in ways to reduce those costs that are associated. That 500k figure which is tossed around but I am still not buying, was what bought them YEARS as the only name in this market. Failing to take advantage of that head start is their own fault and I feel absolutely no proclivity to punish myself and my family by paying more than I have to if the CPP product truly turns out to be superior for my purposes as it appears on paper.

I was serious that if ATS does something aside from cry over the inevitable and decides to bring a budget version to market I would look seriously at their product before I would resort to dealing with CPP.


As to your assertion that spending RnD money guarantees that they can only sell at ~1.2per set it was so freaking asinine that I started not to even address it but I will do so for you delight and edification.
Lets assume that each of these aluminum spindles costs 650 for materials, transport, machining and overhead. Let us further assume that for the purposes of this discussion there was theoretically some way to product a similar spindle from cheaper materials and with less machining time for lets say something under 269.00 of course including overhead.

Now lets find the break even point of the supper duper ultra shiney, one of a kind, sprinkled with fairy dust version:
1200 - 650 = 550.00
Now 500k/550. This break even point is 909.1 units. So a designer would have to be a drooling tard to make this product if he didnt think he would sell at least that many units before he inevitably had competition in his market.

Now lets see if there is every any potential break even point for a cheaper version even though I have been informed such a thing is impossible. I said earlier I would be a buyer from ATS for anything under 2x the price of the CPP unit so:
379.00 which is the cost of CPP version with hubs so we will use that as a thoretical cost to manufacture a cheaper version
sell price = 758.00 So profit per spindle after costs and overhead is 758-379.00 = 379.0 (yes shocker there. Who would think the math would work that easily)

Now break even point assuming that the seller has recouped 1/2 of his costs through the premium unit he sold while the market was cornered.
so 250k/ 379.00 = 660 units. WOW AMAZING!! there is still a break even point and profit to be made.
or even if we assume that the designer and buyer were so short sighted as to blow their previous money on hookers and blow lets see if there is any theoretical way to make money on a budget version that you could sell to people for whom 2 lbs was not worth 800ish.
So 500/379 = 1320 units. FREAKING UNBELIEVABLE. consider my MIND BLOWN. I guess bussiness can work like that if you stop crying and work to keep one step ahead of the competition insead of expecting to come up with one idea and ride that cash cow for the rest of your life.

[TitoJones]

Additionally, since the ATS AFX spindle is an admitted rip off from the GM spindle design overarching themes and even the specific measurements in some places that took direct advantage of the money that GM spent developing that product we should make them write out a check. Sure the ATS spindles have some changes by incorporating the idea of a taller spindle for better geometry but even that was just a STOLEN idea from the late GM spindles again taking inappropriate advantage of the RnD spending by an uncompensated third party.

Moreover, I think we should also agree to fully disregard the fact that if we discount the parts of the spindle design that were the IP of GM such as general shape, improved geometry, mounting style of the hub assembly, and general size and shape required for retrofit to our cars then there appears to be no evidence what so ever that CPP did anything aside from acknowledge that the original was a good idea and attempt to make a competing product that is superior and fills a market niche that ATS has made absolutely no move whatsoever to fill.

In short the important part of your indignation that we should note is that we all need to find out how closely related we are to the originator of the wheel so we can get some of that money!!!!!

You are incredibly dense. I appreciate the sarcasm; truly as a master of that craft myself I can take it as well as dish it. But:

I'm tired of repeating myself so I'll just copy and paste a previous reply to the same bullsh*t remark that another member said about copying the GM C5 upright. (By the way, go try bolting one of those up to a first gen Camaro and tell me how it went).

You have ZERO idea of what you are talking about at this point. At first glance it's easy to look at a high quality part like the AFX tall spindle and say, that looks like a modified C5 Corvette part. We built it to be of OEM and higher standards. You want to know what we didn't scratch build on the AFX spindle? The C5 hub and the distance between the brake bracket holes. To use the brake systems from that vehicle necessitated those design criteria. But where do you think the idea for the height of the spindle came from? The relocated steering arm location? The rotation of the brake caliper bracket in relation to the steering arm? The option to make hardened ball joint inserts so as to not cycle fatigue the forging when installing and removing the assembly? The beefing up of the caliper bracket and strategic fillets to integrate a safety factor of 12? None of that was a 'blend' of a C5 upright and a factory Camaro spindle. We used a hub and brake bracket off a high performance OEM vehicle to help make the item more serviceable and to have readily available off the shelf brake systems from the top names in the industry; Baer, Alcon, Brembo, AP Racing, Wilwood and others. In addition, the C5 is a pressure casting of A356 aluminum, and the AFX spindle is a forging of 6061T6 aluminum. To say we practically adapted an off the shelf C5 spindle to a Camaro is an insult to my engineer. He spent over a year refining that design, doing physical testing on the geometry, and destructive testing of the unit after production. Not to beat a dead horse, but go ask Air Ride how the use of the overseas FatMan tall spindle worked out when they forgot to have them heat treated and it failed. Or ask L&H how that upper ball joint insert managed to pull through the machined spindle? Ever see that on an AFX spindle?
Nope. The reason? Engineering and innovation with high quality American suppliers.

I would ask you to refrain from talking out your ass but it appears your head is so far up it that it's where your voice resonates from.

Enjoy your Chinese knock offs. Post back about the fantastic customer service and technical support you get from CPP. That will be hysterical.

Before anyone bitches-
I'm not the owner or affiliated with. ATS. Or Speedtech

[rfrankb4]

And of course none of that is even considering the fact that the availability of both the Corvette based ATS and the L&H original style aluminum have had periods approaching a year when there were not available. Allowing that to happen and still being surprised/upset when someone else attempts to get into the market blows my mind. But then as an outside observer I do have the advantage of emotional detachment many involved in this discussion understandably lack.

[rfrankb4]

You are incredibly dense. I appreciate the sarcasm; truly as a master of that craft myself I can take it as well as dish it. But:

I'm tired of repeating myself so I'll just copy and paste a previous reply to the same bullsh*t remark that another member said about copying the GM C5 upright. (By the way, go try bolting one of those up to a first gen Camaro and tell me how it went).

I would ask you to refrain from talking out your ass but it appears your head is so far up it that it's where your voice resonates from.

Enjoy your Chinese knock offs. Post back about the fantastic customer service and technical support you get from CPP. That will be hysterical.

Before anyone bitches-
I'm not the owner or affiliated with. ATS. Or Speedtech


Dense is possible. ******* is likely (I admit to that once my patience with stupidity runs out)

However, I read that post the first time and it still does not have any applicability to my points. He clearly made use of general ideas from GM and designed an awesome product that filled a market need. That was awesome. I do honestly hate it for him that he did not make more money from his design but poor business practices can kill the profits for most any idea.

[SSninja]

I have to admit that I 100% agree with Frank in regards to the business aspects of this debate.

My post in the "GMR AFX upright" thread was ignored, so I'll post it again and maybe get a response from TitoJones or Speedtech this time:


Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but what would your stance be if these spindles were produced by American company that sourced all of their products and labor in North America?

Given that, I'm sure the spindles would be at least double the price of these spindles of unknown origin, but they'd still be less expensive than the AFX arms.

If the "Buy American" argument is off the table (And it's a good one, don't get me wrong), I'm curious as to your thoughts on the matter: Would you still consider a company selling a similar if not 99% identical product a thief? Keep in mind, with a higher price-point for this hypothetical competitor, the AFX spindle would still be considered the "premium" product.


Thinking about spindles, there's only so many ways to design one that will work, and once that is fixed you're then down to materials and service. Much like any other business in the world, the innovators need to keep innovating and proving that they have superior products and service if they want to stay on top and not become a one trick pony.

I understand the extremely expensive cost it takes to be an innovator, but it's not as if you are the only person/company that has had to endure this hardship.

With all of this R&D cost, was the spindle patented? If not, I would suggest doing so next time, perhaps so that you can also recoup costs by leasing the design to other US-based automotive performance companies.

Using your Ridetech example, there were (And still are) other alternatives for airbags on the market that are less expensive. That said, they are one of the leaders for many reasons, two of which are quality of service and knowledge, along with the drive to always innovate and increase their portfolio, hence their entrance into sway bars, control arms, coilovers, etc.

Will others come out with very similar products down the line? Of course, but Ridetech is still the premier choice given the service and products offered.



If Speedtech truly wants to stay on top of this, start producing your spindle using materials similar to this CPP spindle and then subject it to the same performance testing that the aluminum part was subjected to, proving that it is in fact superior to the "knockoffs" in this regard.

Then, price said spindle at a more aggressive price and offer superior service (A la Ridetech) in order to keep your market share.

Or, just continue to bitch about how your ideas were stolen and that you're taking your ball and going home.


For full transparency, I'm someone who would never buy your premium-priced product as I believe that I can get to 80-85% of the performance at less than half of the cost using tall ball joints, adapter brackets, Kore3 hubs, etc (A route which I've already gone). That said, I would have been all over a "bolt-on" solution for $500 or so.

[CarlC]

That's enough boys.