it's been somewhat covered, but teach me...

[formula]

the fundamental flaws in a factory 2nd gen f-body suspension. rather than just throw parts at my car till it feels better, i thought i'd take the chance to learn its weaknesses and adress from there.

so, hit me.

[yody]

ooh, I will sit back and watch! Whats funny is that if you search people will say;
1. there isn't much wrong with it except the frame isnt as sturdy as a first gen(which you fixed)
2. There are a million parts out there since it is the most popular race subframe
why I haven' seen any street/protouring cars with these "race parts" so readily available is beyond me. Look to mean69 I believe he might have some cool stuff in store for us guys, but don't listen to anythinng I say!

[Mean 69]

I guess the answers really depend upon what you want from the car, obviously. In general, I'd have to say that the front suspension on the second gen is far better than the first gens, and frankly, it is probably very possible to make it work even better by addressing minor geometry issues, spring rates, alignment, etc. To be honest, I haven't even mapped the stock stuff out to see the kinematics, I believe some of the other guys have though (Marcus?). In the back, well, the same thing that woes the first gen's is here too, leaf springs. For the majority of applications, leafs are fine, and with some clever thinking, you can spec a leaf to work really well overall. The main issues with leafs are the weight, and the fact that if you want to change spring rates (i.e. to optimize for a particular track, etc), well, you need a new set of springs. Coil-overs are much easier to swap rates, corner weight the car, etc.

My team is currently working on addressing both ends of the second gen cars, but the outcome will be a pretty significant departure from the stock stuff, to put it mildly. Definitely not for everyone. Our current plan is to have products on display at SEMA this year. Second gen's are terrific cars, I am having a great time with the planning and build of the 70 we are doing, it should be a pretty special car when complete. Long way to go though!

Mark

[formula]

sounds cool. how much of a departure are you talking about? will most of your stuff still function with the factory subframe, or is this going to be a from-scratch affair?

yody, that was pretty much all i could find, but i figured there had to be some stuff that could be improved on with 30 years of new technology...

when you say "1. there isn't much wrong with it except the frame isnt as sturdy as a first gen(which you fixed)", do you mean that a 2nd gen frame isnt as sturdy as a fixed first gen frame or that i've already adressed the weakness issue? kinda lost me there..

side note: when is SEMA, again? i want to say may, but that seems wrong...

[zbugger]

SEMA is the first week of November. I'd say you were a little bit off...

And I've forgotten the issues with the second gen suspension already. Hell, I own one and I don't remember.

[WS6]

does the second gen front frame suffer from the same problems that the third gen does with the steering box distorting the front end under heavy loads and hard turning?

i know caster adjustments can be improved upon and that usually takes a simple upper a-arm swap. the camber curve is much better than a first gen, but could still be improved upon as well. the way the front springs are located is the culprit in that area. i can not remember what exactly it was that was "bad" but i think it was the angle at which the springs sit. the front end is long and since its a subframe theres a lot of flex in there. front structure braces tieing the front subframe into the firewall cure this problem. tieing the front core support to the fenders with a thicker brace instead of that stamped steel crap peice helps. WFO i think has those peices. moving the battery to the trunk helps out a great deal as well. the normal size battery weighs a lot and sitting way out front doesnt help. the tie rod ends are stamped steel and can flex under hard turns. switching to a threaded tube cures that. switching to a smaller, lighter, and quicker ratio steering box helps and supposedly allows the use of 11in wide tires on the front without having rub issues since the stops are moved. i havent checked this out yet myself, i was just recently told about it.

i dont know all the science behind these cars and suspension like others, but i think if you do your research you will find many parts that simply bolt on and are designed to correct or greatly improve the short comings of these cars. with careful and thought out planning you can make the most of your money and modifications to make these cars really perform. personally i think one of the biggest issues that needs to be corrected about the platform is the weight distribution. there is room to move the engine back maybe an inch. this should change your balance a fair amount. i wouldn't suggest doing this as a first step, but if your pulling the engine or dropping in a different engine id look into doing it. eventually im going to build an gen2 LT1 powered second gen and id like to set the engine back and maybe down before dropping it in. fourth gens already have motor mounts that set the engine back in the car and the design is nothing spectacular that couldnt be reproduced with a peice of plate steel. theres also enough room to move the trans xmember back that same amount.

personally i love second gens and think they are great platforms for making a great handling and riding car without having to frabricate a lot of parts. then again maybe i dont have my expectations set as high as others.

[formula]

any word on where i can find the firewall braces? i've heard them mentioned before but have never seen them...

[79T/Aman]

right here www.pro-touringf-body.com