pro touring or racar

[anthonys 69]

Pro touring definition when does a pro touring car become a racecar with seats, is it when a car has a roll cage and you cant use the back seat, or if the engine is set back 4’’. or carbine fiber everything or a wide body with tires that are so wide or over 600hp. I think they should have different categories of pro touring for example. A car with mordent suspension wide tires big brakes that handles like a new car is a pro touring car. If the shocks are multi adjustable it should be pro touring extreme. If it also has a roll cage with back seat blocked off extreme 1 if the car was lightened with carbon fiber as well extreme 2 wide body with extreme wide tires 3etc you get the idea . And at an out cross if your car is an extreme 4 you should get 4 point deducted or o.4 sec added to your time. To try and even things out what do you think

[dontlifttoshift]

So you want an "I" class?

"I" think "I" should get a time credit because I only have one spring in the front and no ball joints. "I" think anyone with bucket seats has a racecar. "I" think any more than 235's in the front is undriveable so I should get more time off for that. I don't even have to run, I am already faster.

Build what you like and can afford and drive the snot out of it.....that's the point.

[Payton King]

This is for fun, hence no multiple classes and very few rules. If you want to bracket race, what sounds like you are suggesting, I would go to the drag strip.

From all of the events that I have attended, I found most are looking to have a good time and a reason to beat on the cars they have built.

[anthonys 69]

true Payton true. and I don’t want an I class because I wouldn’t have a chance other wise. I was just thinking that the cars at the very top level are starting to get away from pro touring and into auto cross racecars especially when they go to wide body. I like the trickle down affect of technology. It makes everyone else step up and spend a fortune to compete marry possi just redid her camaro and with all the wide bodies coming out shell have to redo the car again to be competitive.

[garickman]

marry possi just redid her camaro and with all the wide bodies coming out shell have to redo the car again to be competitive.

I'm pretty sure Mary Pozzi won't have any trouble being competitive with her car "as is" or for that matter "as was".

[anthonys 69]

From what can gather I could bring a full on racecar make it street legal with lights put some seat init and that would be ok. A driver as good as marry would struggle against a good driver and a better car. A quote from marry herself (it is like bring a knife to a gun fight no a missile fight )

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I think you're missing the point Anthony. If you want to be competitive w these so called racecars, build one. If you prefer to have a more streetable car than do that. PT has been defined to death; RTTx events have their rule set for a reason (i.e. run what you bring and have fun!). As Payton said, If you want to fit into class racing there's lots of opportuntiy for that.

[vette427-sbc]

I think the biggest thing about Pro touring is that these are (for the most part) street cars and they have a double duty- you can drive them to the track, beat on them for a few hours, and then home at the end of the day. Every modification you do to make it faster has an effect somewhere else.... If you want to bring a race car that is "bare minimum" street legal, thats fine, but your drive home from the track might not be a comfortable as some other cars that are cruising home with the AC and radio on. It is competitive fun. If someone wants to bring a 75% racecar 25% street car, thats fine. If they want to bring the opposite, no problem. As long as everyone is having fun...

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

almost all out racecar on the street with headlights and license plate is a Streetfighter.. stripped down, no music, barely an interior.

The protouring heroes lately have been leaning more twords that im many respects.. and have blurred the line..

like the streetrodish builds with swooping interior, airride, billet wheels, etc.. are the polar opposite.. they just throw in a Fatman clip to say protouring.

either way.. which one floats your boat huh?..

[anthonys 69]

The point I’m trying to make is, like me for example i loves this sport. I have a 69 camaro and spend every spare penny and time putting Detroit speed suspension , wilwood brakes. custom wheels etc under my car because those are the part that I like. And my car would still not be competitive. I could go to an event run all day have a blast and the completive side of me wants to win but my bank account doesn’t . tell me you wouldn’t want to come away from a run to the something with a tee shirt that said fastest car in class.

[anthonys 69]

Forgive me I’m not trying to take anything away from the sport. I was looking for some recognition for the little guy. The little guy how buy the parts spends his money on his car making it the best he can. And is the best driver or has the best car in his class. would love to win a tee shirt. and would feel like he won the lotto if his car and his driving won a set of tires.

[analyte]

I guess the problem is you want to win so you might get something free. In my opinion, that's the wrong attitude for the RTTx events. I'm beyond needing to win since the joy of competing is what drives me nowadays, win or lose. If I'm ever fastest, great, but that's not the reason for me attending an event.

[71RS/SS396]

Spend your money on driving lessons and track time not more parts, you'll become more competitive that way.

[anthonys 69]

Its not that I want something for free at all. If they added $10 to the entry cost to cover the cost of the tee shirt. I wouldn’t care it s a goal its something to strive for.If I was to win a tee shirt not given a tee shirt. it would be because I beat everyone in my class. Tell me why there coming out with wide body camaros all of a sudden its not to make them look better. Brian finch is one of the best drivers out there and now he’s making his car a wide body. Its for the competition. If you race just to have fun on a given day and if you don’t care if your better or worse than an other driver so be it have fun. In drag racing if you had a 10 second car and they put you up against a top fuel dragster you would have to say you where racing for fun.

[dontlifttoshift]

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?92817-RTTH-8-Autocross-Results

Read the replys in here, guys tickled pink to be in the bottom 1/3 of the field. They get it. You are driving the trophy, go have fun!!

[SicMonte]

Spend your money on driving lessons and track time not more parts, you'll become more competitive that way.

I agree 100%. I have a basic pro-touring car and have been to every event I could this year to get seat time. Hell I even have a SBC with an automatic and I still go out, thrash the car and have one heck of a good time doing it. Seat time is worth way more than go fast parts. I didn't build this car to win races...I built it to be different than everyone else...and to allow it to let me have fun at these events with my friends.

I know that I will never win one of these events but I get alot of respect for doing what I do with what I have. I am out there with my car and showing people what I have...and it has caught a couple people/sponsors eyes. I go out of my way to show up to events even if I am not with my car...I still show up to help out/hang out/ and just be a part of the scene.

Build your car the way you like it and can comfortably afford it. Then get out there to as many events as you can and show them what you got...you never know...someone might give you a shirt for it. Heck...maybe even a hat too!

[66larkgs]

Anthony, I understand what you are saing. It is like the evolution of NASCAR. Remember the days of production cars running in the dirt and look at it now. I think pro-touring is the same way. I remember wanting to build a PT car back in 06 when I was college and funds didn't allow. I have bought a number of suspension upgrades to try to keep up with the Times and even if my car has never seen road time yet it has become a better car because of the constant change of times and increase Raise of the bar.
Oh maybe I can say the one thing I don't like is the guy who drops his car off at a shop and 100k later He states he built his own car. Maybe I am just Jealous!!

[anthonys 69]

Ha Ha a hat to that would be great. It seems that every one drives hard and for fun. I'm happy with that if everyone else is. Have fun see you on race day. It was only a suggestion

[Bill Howell]

Let me add a few points here, and hopefully I know what I am talking about since I have been to a couple events this year.
1. Brian Finch drove his car from Nashville with his wife to RTTHs and left Pigeon Forge headed back to Nashville with his wife in the passenger seat and daughter in the back seat. This after turning the best time of the weekend. So, that was over 400 miles plus track time. If that isn't protouring I don't know what is. Also, that same car is being driven to SEMA this year and OUSCI so enough about what kind of car it is.
2. As long as I have a say, there will never be a bunch of classes of cars. That reminds me of world of wheels. With enough classes,everyone gets a first place trophy. The only separation I see is a cut off year between protouring and modern. Currently, when we do divide the two, we use the 30 year rule. Right now that would make a 1982 PT classic.
3.Years ago I made a statement to the effect that if you wanted to beat Kyle Tucker, step up, buy the parts and out drive him. I stand behind that statement even now. Why because some have done just that.
4. Almost every major player in the game right now is also a member of the RatPack. A simple qualification gets anyone in the club. Drive your car 2000 miles on one trip. Simple enough, put up or shut up. Until I see reason to change the rules, I think we will leave them as is.
5. Here is the main point guys. ALMOST everyone that comes out to play will chime in here and agree with me. 99% of participants are there to improve their skills and have fun with everyone there. Only about 1% are fighting for the win. If we keep changing rules and get like all the other series, then we are just another series. ASCS is about the fun and friendship, but there are other places that have a zillion classes, and more rules than Carter has liver pills, so if that is what you really want, check them out.

[CarlC]

There will always be someone else with more money and better driving skills. The best times I've had on a track are with other drivers where I'm not the fastest, slowest, or anything else. I'm a driver pushing the limits of myself and the car while doing the same with other like-minded drivers. That's when the fun happens.

It's not what you have, it's making the most of what you do have.

As for what is, or is not, a race car, that is in the eye of the beholder. Like the above, someone will always be faster.

[SicMonte]

Let me add a few points here, and hopefully I know what I am talking about since I have been to a couple events this year.
1. Brian Finch drove his car from Nashville with his wife to RTTHs and left Pigeon Forge headed back to Nashville with his wife in the passenger seat and daughter in the back seat. This after turning the best time of the weekend. So, that was over 400 miles plus track time. If that isn't protouring I don't know what is. Also, that same car is being driven to SEMA this year and OUSCI so enough about what kind of car it is.
2. As long as I have a say, there will never be a bunch of classes of cars. That reminds me of world of wheels. With enough classes,everyone gets a first place trophy. The only separation I see is a cut off year between protouring and modern. Currently, when we do divide the two, we use the 30 year rule. Right now that would make a 1982 PT classic.
3.Years ago I made a statement to the effect that if you wanted to beat Kyle Tucker, step up, buy the parts and out drive him. I stand behind that statement even now. Why because some have done just that.
4. Almost every major player in the game right now is also a member of the RatPack. A simple qualification gets anyone in the club. Drive your car 2000 miles on one trip. Simple enough, put up or shut up. Until I see reason to change the rules, I think we will leave them as is.
5. Here is the main point guys. ALMOST everyone that comes out to play will chime in here and agree with me. 99% of participants are there to improve their skills and have fun with everyone there. Only about 1% are fighting for the win. If we keep changing rules and get like all the other series, then we are just another series. ASCS is about the fun and friendship, but there are other places that have a zillion classes, and more rules than Carter has liver pills, so if that is what you really want, check them out.

Exactly!!! Perfectly said.

[damannhw]

1. Brian Finch drove his car from Nashville with his wife to RTTHs and left Pigeon Forge headed back to Nashville with his wife in the passenger seat and daughter in the back seat. This after turning the best time of the weekend. So, that was over 400 miles plus track time. If that isn't protouring I don't know what is. Also, that same car is being driven to SEMA this year and OUSCI so enough about what kind of car it is.

WOW, that impresses me !!

And even though I was mid-pack this weekend, I had a BLAST :) It's all about having fun.

[Bill Howell]

I left one point out that I think needs saying. Personally I don't even like separating vendors and regular guys. Here is my reasoning on that. Take DSE, RIDETECH, JetHot, Sal with TCI, John Hotchkis when we are out west, and some other vendors that come out at any given event. Since we don't pay money to win or even a big prize to win, I feel it is more fun to see how I stack up against these company sponsored cars and some darn good drivers. They too really enjoy the bragging rights when they win and get the $8 trophy proclaiming them the winner of that event that day. Great marketing tool for them to say they were the best that day and great for me to see how far off the mark I am with my car/skills.
If we moved to 10 classes, paid money to winners, etc, that would only lead us to become the same as every other series. I don't want to become just another place where only rich guys play. Human nature tends to push us to bigger and better, but I am resisting that push, and I hope everyone understands where I am coming from. That is another reason I push so hard that people drive their cars. Race cars on the street are no fun, street cars on the track make the streetcar better, yet keeps the drivability in it too.

[Takid455]

PT or any other build style classification are just for posers that want to say I have this or that. Build YOUR car the way YOU want it. Its all personal taste and what do YOU want to do.

Some say its all hot rodding. Part true as hot rodding in loose form is taking a stock application and modifying it for what ever reason. Nothing new there from the first horseless carriage to the latest factory racer.

Example for factory hot rodding

take corvette or mustang or even an SL Benz or 911 (used these as the are the longest continuous platforms)
Look at the first year to today. Change this , redo this, try this, ect and see the differences/ improvements. Nothing different that what so called PT guys do with their once antiquedated (sp?) machines to bring them up to current times. While financial backing is drastically different, the concepts is the same

[tazzz25906112]

Anthony the clock is your biggest competitor buddy.... You can't bring a group a diverse as ours and then try to slot them into a class... If you're looking for a rush,,, work you're driving skills against the clock.. It never lies, it never cheats, and it knows only one fastest way around the track.....

As a side note my Carbon outfitted car saw me driving it all the way from Pigeon Forge to Toronto last weekend and that was after driving it over from Nashville earlier the day before... I hear what your saying with how quick these builds can be,,, but in the end it's 80% the driver... Hell i have cars with much less power and goodies beat me regularly at events,,, again the driver is the key for the most part. Love what you have and enjoy the group...... Competition is where SCCA lives,, we're just a bunch of enthusiasts that like to drive the wheels off our cars and tell a few lies over a BBQ buddy...

[TheJDMan]

Bill,
Any movement on a location for a 2013 east coast event? My car simply was not ready for the 2012 NJ event but it will be ready for 2013.

[Bill Howell]

Nothing yet Steve. Probably not going to happen at NJMP. They only have crappy dates available, such as Easter weekend and the cost is out of sight. We are looking for other venues.

[howehot]

I've enjoyed every event I've attended since finishing my 84 monte Carlo SS in June. All I want is to run respectable times. I ask questions and get as much info from others so I can to improve. All the fellow competitors have been great. My reward, an invite to OUSCI. this beats any trophy or plaque all to he... I'll attend an autocross school next Sept. 29 which was recommended by many. Maybe I'm that bad?

As far as classes, I think it will just complicate things. The prize money is really poor in the one class we have.

[anthonys 69]

I was only suggesting some kind of competition within the competition not even a high dollar amount. The $8 trophy Kyle tucker and Brian finch takes home means a hell of a lot more to them than $8 to them. But I can see how racing the clock and your own best time would be trophy enough.

[SicMonte]

I've enjoyed every event I've attended since finishing my 84 monte Carlo SS in June. All I want is to run respectable times. I ask questions and get as much info from others so I can to improve. All the fellow competitors have been great. My reward, an invite to OUSCI. this beats any trophy or plaque all to he... I'll attend an autocross school next Sept. 29 which was recommended by many. Maybe I'm that bad?

As far as classes, I think it will just complicate things. The prize money is really poor in the one class we have.

I think your new car build and brand new chassis was responsible for the OUSCI invite. It's not everyday that someone can afford a custom chassis and throw it under a Monte Carlo SS...so that appeal and good story line would be good for TV...and therefore good for Optima...and therefore the invite.

The autox school you are planning to attend will be very beneficial. Any seat time is beneficial. The OUSCI will be full of top level drivers and cars with years of experience under their belt. I've never been, and can guarantee I'll never be invited with a "not pretty" car, but I can imagine that it can be very intimidating. If it were me...I'd go out there and drive the wheels off the car and just let it be. Go have fun and soak it all in...b/c it really is a big deal.

And you mention that the prize money is really poor in the one class that you have....what class is that and what organization is it?

[anthonys 69]

Really this was never about me. It was for the driver like you that doesn’t have the high dollar all out pro touring car. It was an idea to show case the driver and car that is doing very well with what he has. For example you hear a lot in magazines of the top 5 or 10 cars at an event. Over time it’s the same 5 or 10 people. It would be nice to hear about some one that doesn’t have the most power full car. Do well and maybe show what they have in there cars and maybe show where they learnt to drive. by wining a class or points that would be a way of show casing a well set up car and driver. I never meant to brake up the event or to upset any one. Or change the way thing are run. Until my car is ready I can only watch and read. If you put the best driver in the best car he should win. But how is every one else doing. If you won a class or made x amount of point at an event id like to know what are you running. How many hours do you have behind the wheel.

[anthonys 69]

I feel like I’ve stepped on too many feet with this. I’m not a glory hound far from it. I hope you can understand what I was trying to get across.

[anthonys 69]

Ok how about this.just pull one number out of a hat before the event say # 22 and the driver that places will get a mention a tee shirt a good job. it would be a fairly high number a place to drive for. and let us the readers know. who got the spot, what are they driving what kind of modifications, did the driver have driving lessons, what plans do they have if any to improve. How far did they drive to get to the event. Its just a suggestion like my son saying to lets get some chicken.

[Steve Chryssos]

A street car is a car that you can drive on the street. That's it. Everything else is subjective. If I want to drive around in a loud, hot, snotty beast with the Supersuckers or The Hangmen blaring with the dial at 11, that's okay. My mom always says I should express myself.

Wisenheimer sarcasm aside, you are 100% right in pointing all of this out. What you're picking up on is a concerted effort by a small number of individuals to carefully remove weight, add track width, and test other ways to move beyond readily available components. These guys know that currently available parts cannot best a modded Z06 vette. So they're pushing forward.

Just remember There was a day when no one believed that 345's could fit under a 60's muscle car. "345's? Heck no. That's too much work!" The same can be said for paddle-shifted manumatics in old hot rods. Whuh?

Tomorrow, you may be able to buy a Stealth weight reduction kit, or production wide body panels that are stamped in some factory. Go with it. :worship:
/Steevo

[Bill Howell]

Anthony,
At RTTHs, we had a gift certificate from 10/10s driving school to give away however and to whomever we picked. Danny Popp and I decided this. It went to the guy that was in the dead middle of the 68 car field. My thoughts were the top 10 guys did not need the school, why not reward the middle of the pack guy. That happened to be, on that day, Bobbie Jones. IF you look on the results list, you will see he finished 34 out of 68.
I take great efforts to include as many people as possible in the spotlight. However, we don't control what is printed and are happy with whatever ink we get. Honestly, reading a magazine, you don't care who finished 40th or their time. You care about who finished first and how you stack up against their time.
Again, don't get caught up in who won, get some seat time, schooling if possible and be the best you can be. There will always be someone with more talent or more money, forget that. Just see how you stack up against them on raceday and what you can do to narrow that gap. As good as Brian and Kyle and Britt and Ryan and ...... are, they still haven't gotten a NASCAR offer and I seriously doubt they will. lol

[71RS/SS396]

Ok how about this.just pull one number out of a hat before the event say # 22 and the driver that places will get a mention a tee shirt a good job. it would be a fairly high number a place to drive for. and let us the readers know. who got the spot, what are they driving what kind of modifications, did the driver have driving lessons, what plans do they have if any to improve. How far did they drive to get to the event. Its just a suggestion like my son saying to lets get some chicken.

Anthony, they already do that at these events, Brett from Ridetech gives out an award ( with a gift certificate ) at these events called the Renegade Award, it goes to an individual that doesn't have the best equipment but still does well with what they have. They also give a spirit of the event award in the name of Todd Gartshore (RIP). You need to come out to these events and see what they are really about and not what you think they're about from reading on the internet. Come join in on the fun, you be hooked on it trust me.

[Mike Holleman]

Bill, Have you looked at NC CAR? I've done a couple of track weekends there. Real good facility. Right off I95, just below Vir?NC line. They do not allow racing, but they do allow time trial events. Mike
Nothing yet Steve. Probably not going to happen at NJMP. They only have crappy dates available, such as Easter weekend and the cost is out of sight. We are looking for other venues.

[71RS/SS396]

Anthony,
At RTTHs, we had a gift certificate from 10/10s driving school to give away however and to whomever we picked. Danny Popp and I decided this. It went to the guy that was in the dead middle of the 68 car field. My thoughts were the top 10 guys did not need the school lol

I finished in the top 10 and I definitely need some schoolin lol! With that being said I 100% agree with what you guys did and can't think of a better person to get the certificate, he comes to a lot of the events, flogs his car, and is willing to help anyone that needs it.

[cornfedbill]

I agree with Bill. When there are too many rules, the fun gets lost.

There will always be faster and more expensive cars. There will always be drivers who can afford to drop of their cars and their wallets and end up with beautify and very fast cars. I enjoy these expensive build and cars. I use them to learn and to garner ideas for my car.

I, personally, have fun building my own car. It will be fast, not not the fastest. It will be capable of driving to work every day, on vacation and on the track. That is what I want from my pro-touring car. I will be modifying the stock subframe and will retain the rear leaf springs.

The fun is in building and driving, not necessarily winning.

I think wide body cars are cool. I think thinly disguised race cars are cool. I think there is room for all.

Just to touch on the autocross competition, I once saw an Austin Mini beat an 800 horsepower race prepared Corvette in an autocross. The driver has a much bigger impact than many people realize. Chassis tuning is also much more important than money spent also.

Enjoy what you have. Have fun!

That's just my two cents worth.

[Steve Chryssos]

Part of the problem is marketing. In truth, these events are much closer in nature to track days and performance showcases, as opposed to true sanctioned competitions where rules packages are precise and mandatory. Ol Billy Big Block does a great job of labeling his events as "Runs". I think one of the other events is called a Faceoff. It's a cool name and I'm sure it was applied casually in the interest of generating excitement.

I don't think there is any danger of having your face removed at any of these events. But from the post event PR, it's easy to see how a prospective attendee could get the wrong impression regarding the true nature of these events. Remember that the events were started in the dark ages when folks were arguing over a .010" change in bumpsteer instead of turning wrenches. The goal was simply to inspire folks to get their cars done. That's a pretty low bar by today's standards.

With the exception of the Optima Invitational, all or most of these events are really two in parties in one:
-You can stretch your car's legs and boost skill
-You can watch some of the better sorted cars and experienced drivers duke it out.

[Steve Chryssos]

Man! I love my Jet-Hot headers!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/09/7740219098_12340ba82e_z-1.jpg

[High Plains Mopars]

In truth, these events are much closer in nature to track days and performance showcases, as opposed to true sanctioned competitions where rules packages are precise and mandatory.


IMO, this is the core of it all. Pro Touring is a genre of build styles, not a competition class, and there are no rules to the genre so long as it is all street legal in your home state. If you build your car however you want and it performs well all the way around, you can call it pro touring. But to go to a "pro touring" event where there are no classifications or rules about mods and that means you will always be running against guys with more experience, more money in their car, better turners in their pocket, or any other multitude of differences. That is the same at any RTTH type of event or Goodguys event you attend.

If classifications and fitting within those classes is important, then you should not build a pro touring car but instead should look at SCCA sanctioned autocross or NASA American Iron racing. There are many street legal classes in autocross where you can perform limited mods to be competitve in the class and still enjoy your car. However, that means you may not be able to go the 335 rear tire route or install a 502 big block because it will chang eyou classification. In here, there are limits and rules regarding every aspect of your car to create a more level field of mechanical capability within the machinery. But guess what, you still run into people with more money, more time, more tuning, and more experience.

Honestly, with the original post outline, you've described something along the lines of the NASA Time Trials class. Look over those rules, they do have a give/take format of allowable mods with the specific timing classifications. It is a power to weight based formula that does have "modification factors" built in to it to adjust for things like non d.o.t. tires, dynoed horsepower levels over factory ratings, aero mods, suspension mods etc.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_rules.pdf

However, this is still a hardcore racing group that takes it very seriously and NASA has spent years developing the format and trianing the tech guys to create classifications and roll this out through various tracks around the country. IMO, what I have seen, Pro Touring events were not designed to nor do they want to operate of this level of complexity. It is all in fun, that yes, rewards the more capable cars that tend to have more money put into them. I'm sorry, but tha tis kind of a fact of life, even in sanctioned, clasified, and highly regulated racing as well. Since I tend to usually have one of those car that is underspent on, I have found that I can take a great dela of pride in knowing that while I may not win an event, I can come within a few seconds of those top finishing cars and I did it for a quarter of the money. No, I'll never get a trophy for that, which is a bummer, but it is still satisfying to know that.

[GrabberGT]

Anthony,
Just see how you stack up against them on raceday and what you can do to narrow that gap.

My strategy to a "T". I call it the "Dude! I almost had you." game. Just find someone who routinely shows at the same events as you and look for the event - event progress you make. I closed the gap to Terry Neuville by 4 seconds this spring at Lonestar Goodguys. I wonder how much closer I can get this time.

And speaking of Protouring vs Race. Terry's car is the closest to street car I have seen at an event yet. No roll bar, no race seats, no 4-5 point harness, just 245 front tires, auto trans, 3-point belts, AC, stereo, full interior... That thing is plush. AND he still posts some of the top times.

[anthonys 69]

Ok so it’s a driving fun day and not really a competition day. I understand. It sounds like its fun and I hope it stays that way.

[Steve Chryssos]

You just helped more than you can imagine!

[Finch]

It is a personal journey so make of it what you can.

I turned my first corner in anger back in 2006 at the age of 37 so was really late to the game. I did not have the money to build some high dollar machine so kept working at it, and eventually borrowed the cash to go full DSE and LS. It took me 4 years to pay that off but was a great investment to my future based on where I am now. I still don’t have the money but do have allot of great sponsors who help keep me on top.

Even though Kyle and I place near or at the top of most events, we still like to improve with every race whether it be with better driving ,or a better machine. Main thing is to not get discouraged and to keep showing up with a smile on your face.

This is not about the cars or racing, but about the people and great friendships that have formed from it.

[BonzoHansen]

At RTTS this year I had as much fun as an 18 year old with cash at a strip joint. That was my trophy.

[howehot]

I
I think your new car build and brand new chassis was responsible for the OUSCI invite. It's not everyday that someone can afford a custom chassis and throw it under a Monte Carlo SS...so that appeal and good story line would be good for TV...and therefore good for Optima...and therefore the invite.

The autox school you are planning to attend will be very beneficial. Any seat time is beneficial. The OUSCI will be full of top level drivers and cars with years of experience under their belt. I've never been, and can guarantee I'll never be invited with a "not pretty" car, but I can imagine that it can be very intimidating. If it were me...I'd go out there and drive the wheels off the car and just let it be. Go have fun and soak it all in...b/c it really is a big deal.

And you mention that the prize money is really poor in the one class that you have....what class is that and what organization is it?

The qualifier in Arnold had several great cars and people driving them. When I was asked to go there I didn't even know it was a qualifier until we got out there. I was and still am very surprised and honored to be picked. Yes, it has a new chassis under it that now anyone with the funds can purchase. Is a G-body worth that much investment? In my opinion it is. You continually talk about how much I have in this car and how no one except the well to do can can afford it which I'm far from. Total investment is in the mid 30's. I have every receipt to back this up. Far less than a lot of builds out there. Selling off the old parts, bargain shopping every part, my son doing the paint work, and doing the build in my barn kept the costs down.

OUSCI will be a trip of a lifetime. My plan is to go all in and finish near the bottom. Anything above that will be a plus. Same approach I took at CarCraft Nationals, finished 3rd, SORC finished 8 out of 12, and LS Fest. But man did I have fun.

Poor prize money? There is none so why make more classes. My reward, OUSCI, CarCraft photo shoot for upcoming feature, and all the positive comments on the car. Most don't even know about the chassis until its pointed out.

Dan

[Rod]

ok I sat back and watched this grow, so just my 2 cents, I built my car in my 2 car garage on a budget, and the started racing, 3 years ago, I was not fast, I worked on my car and my driving skills for the last 3 years, I did the RTTC events that Bill talked about and here is an example of driver not car, at a RTTC event the guy that runs the driving school brought his daily driver prius, (yes Prius) and drove it backwards around the autocross and turned a time that was in the top 10, all driver there, anyways I kept driving and after 3 years I have become fast, third fastest at a couple of goodguys events, and turning the 5 fastest time at a Del Mar event and that has had a few Vendors asking to sponsor, its all practice and skill, 2 and 3 times a month (I do practice with Mary) so that may help, so just drive be fast, dont blame the car, fix it to run fast

how it started
64931

and now
64929

[71RS/SS396]

Man! I love my Jet-Hot headers!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/09/7740219098_12340ba82e_z-1.jpg

Glad you like them Steve

[SicMonte]

At RTTS this year I had as much fun as an 18 year old with cash at a strip joint. That was my trophy.

and that sir...is the truth!!! I even blew up a trans and had the time of my life!!

[Mike Holleman]

Dan, It wasn't just the car that got you the invite. You and your son are good people and a father/son project is one of the best deals going in our hobby. My son and I built cars together and did several Hot Rod Power Tours together. Some of the best times I have ever had. I really enjoyed meeting you guys and I'm guessing so did the powers to be with Optima. Whatever did the trick, enjoy it brother. You and your Son will have a memory for a lifetime. Matters not where you finish. You are already a winner just for the experience. Mike QUOTE=howehot;936796]I

The qualifier in Arnold had several great cars and people driving them. When I was asked to go there I didn't even know it was a qualifier until we got out there. I was and still am very surprised and honored to be picked. Yes, it has a new chassis under it that now anyone with the funds can purchase. Is a G-body worth that much investment? In my opinion it is. You continually talk about how much I have in this car and how no one except the well to do can can afford it which I'm far from. Total investment is in the mid 30's. I have every receipt to back this up. Far less than a lot of builds out there. Selling off the old parts, bargain shopping every part, my son doing the paint work, and doing the build in my barn kept the costs down.

OUSCI will be a trip of a lifetime. My plan is to go all in and finish near the bottom. Anything above that will be a plus. Same approach I took at CarCraft Nationals, finished 3rd, SORC finished 8 out of 12, and LS Fest. But man did I have fun.

Poor prize money? There is none so why make more classes. My reward, OUSCI, CarCraft photo shoot for upcoming feature, and all the positive comments on the car. Most don't even know about the chassis until its pointed out.

Dan[/QUOTE]

[Ron S]

Its funny, we get one or two of these threads a year, everyone wanting to turn the ASCS or the Pro Touring events into a bunch of classes and rules. I for one say NO, if I wanted to run in SCCA or NASA I would be doing it. I love the fact that what we do is the wild wild west, anything goes. 1978 and older, and 200 tread wear tires is all I need to remember, and I can go racing.

The money thing, is always going to be an issue. I remember the start of my Mustang it was all about fun on the cheap, built the whole car in my home garage with only my two hands touching it for under $9000.00 and it is a widebody with the engine moved back. The last event I went to Kyle's, Stacy's, and Billy Utley's stock bodied cars with the engines in the stock locations gave me a good spanking.

It would turn the events into a big cry babyfest, (Billy's engine is back a 1/2 an inch, his car should be in the other class, and Finch's car is lighter then mine he shouldn't run in my class, etc. etc. etc.) Almost impossible to police, and a nightmare for Bill, Brian, and Yancy to keep track of.

In the end its all about fun. I pick the guys, and girls who run about speed, needle and talk alot of smack at the event, sometimes I'm ahead and sometimes I'm behind, but always we have a Hell of a good time.

[FlyDoc]

High Plains Mopars

You answered my question on "rules"
Only other thing is on a cage?

I'm building on a budget like most people! My only place to race here in Hawaii on Oahu is with the SCCA, I'm currently running in prepared C, I don't fit in that class, but I'm the only one. So it's all about the time,learning, & having fun!!
I do drive my Camaro daly!
So I hope to attend the driving school here in Jan, when we pay the guys to come have a vacation!

[DesertFox]

Let me add a few points here, and hopefully I know what I am talking about since I have been to a couple events this year.
1. Brian Finch drove his car from Nashville with his wife to RTTHs and left Pigeon Forge headed back to Nashville with his wife in the passenger seat and daughter in the back seat. This after turning the best time of the weekend. So, that was over 400 miles plus track time. If that isn't protouring I don't know what is. Also, that same car is being driven to SEMA this year and OUSCI so enough about what kind of car it is.
2. As long as I have a say, there will never be a bunch of classes of cars. That reminds me of world of wheels. With enough classes,everyone gets a first place trophy. The only separation I see is a cut off year between protouring and modern. Currently, when we do divide the two, we use the 30 year rule. Right now that would make a 1982 PT classic.
3.Years ago I made a statement to the effect that if you wanted to beat Kyle Tucker, step up, buy the parts and out drive him. I stand behind that statement even now. Why because some have done just that.
4. Almost every major player in the game right now is also a member of the RatPack. A simple qualification gets anyone in the club. Drive your car 2000 miles on one trip. Simple enough, put up or shut up. Until I see reason to change the rules, I think we will leave them as is.
5. Here is the main point guys. ALMOST everyone that comes out to play will chime in here and agree with me. 99% of participants are there to improve their skills and have fun with everyone there. Only about 1% are fighting for the win. If we keep changing rules and get like all the other series, then we are just another series. ASCS is about the fun and friendship, but there are other places that have a zillion classes, and more rules than Carter has liver pills, so if that is what you really want, check them out.

I think that pretty much sums it up. Not that I'm a "someone" by any stretch of the imagination, nor is the car I compete in a "classic PT", however I've had a blast driving all over the country this year, getting tons of seat time, improving my skills and meeting alot of great people.

For the record, you don't have the win an event to win stuff either. I won a Wilwood brake kit at RTTA and my friend won one at RTTC as well as a some nice stuff for the long distance award.

Sometimes it's not about winning, sometimes it's just about showing up, and having a good time with the car you built and having a ton of fun with a bunch of people who have a similar interest.
I do admit that I usually have a goal to not be the slowest person in the group. So far I've managed to do that, in a car built on a budget.

While we're at it... Bill, still waiting on my Rat Pack designation. The mullett made the 2000+ mile drive from Phx to San Antonio for RTTA and back under it's own power and on the same tires. It was announced on the ASCS facebook page but somehow never showed up here.

[Steve1968LS2]

"racecar" means different things to different people.

My car has an old NHRA cage and no back seat.. but I drove it 1200+ miles round trip to the Silver State Classis race, ran it, then drove it home. So to me it's still a street car.

No carpet, no side windows.. finiky race clutch or trans.. runs on race gas.. well, then it falls to the "race car that can be street driven" rather than "Street car that can hit the track"

The simple answer is to build what will make you happy and help you have the fun you want to have.

[Johnny Blaze]

Just like in the days of pro street and real street car drag racing, everyone has a different opinion.

Usually if it was faster then you, you were saying its not a real street car.


IMO, a street car, weither it is pro touring, pro street, whatever, is any car that is Licensed and can be and is driven on the street.

I can get in my 55 turn the key and go to the store, I can get on the highway and drive. Its a street car. Of course it has MT ET STreets, straight thru mufflers, plastic seats and a cage. Also has a spool and a solid roller big block, but it does not overheat, and drives straight down the road.

I have seen slower cars that can't make it 20 miles, and I have seen faster cars that can be driven hundreds of miles.

the same goes for pro touring.


When we get hung up on labels we lose a lot of what the hobby is about, having fun, building something you like, and hanging out with like minded folks.


People call my 69 c10 a rat rod because of the patina. That gets on my nerves, it is far from a rat rod, but I dopn't let it get too me too much, I drive the thing about 1000 miles a month, and love doing it.


The guys that build a car to 'fit' in the guidelines of what are car is supposed to be are missing the point. Those are usually the trend followers who end up with a useless, dated car.

The only guidelines I follow are the rule books for whatever racing body I plan to compete in.

[Bill Howell]

I think that pretty much sums it up. Not that I'm a "someone" by any stretch of the imagination, nor is the car I compete in a "classic PT", however I've had a blast driving all over the country this year, getting tons of seat time, improving my skills and meeting alot of great people.

For the record, you don't have the win an event to win stuff either. I won a Wilwood brake kit at RTTA and my friend won one at RTTC as well as a some nice stuff for the long distance award.

Sometimes it's not about winning, sometimes it's just about showing up, and having a good time with the car you built and having a ton of fun with a bunch of people who have a similar interest.
I do admit that I usually have a goal to not be the slowest person in the group. So far I've managed to do that, in a car built on a budget.

While we're at it... Bill, still waiting on my Rat Pack designation. The mullett made the 2000+ mile drive from Phx to San Antonio for RTTA and back under it's own power and on the same tires. It was announced on the ASCS facebook page but somehow never showed up here.

Valerie, pm Larry Callahan. He is the only one with the power to pop the RTTA icon on you :)