Brake Decision- Wilwood-Baer-CPP?

[72elco]

Hey Guys

2 years ago I purchased the Big Brake Kit from CPP thinking I would have them on the car by now, Wrong they are still in boxes. Now that the project is in the final stages I was thinking about what other Brake options I may have. I havent heard bad things about the CPP brakes but all the time and money put into this thing, maybe a nicer option is the best way to go.

Its a 72 Elcamino mostly to be driven on the street but want the option of track worthy brakes to go along with the great handling. Ive planned to budget $2500 for front and rear. Any suggestions? I was thinking 13inch rotor up front and 12 out back. 6 piston up front may be too much brake (if there is such a thing) but would really like to fit that into the budget if posssible. 18" wheels up front with stock spindles and 19" in the rear.

any and all info is appreciated

Thanks

Brent

[brownz]

Talk to Tobin at KORE3.com He will help you out with all your questions! I will soon be getting more parts from him for my second set of his adapters. great customer service you can count on also

[Fuelie Nova]

I gotta say I love my Baer setup!
Tom

[john31s]

If I was you I would shy away from the CPP kit and go with something else. I also looked into the CPP kit and heard allot of good things, but none from anyone in our PT community. If you search CCP steering box you will find one members horror story of dealing with them (blue first gen w/ an lt1). He brought it to them and they exchanged it for a new one which was also shot (if I recall 4"= of play in the box) and they said it was fine. In the end he put a Lee box in and like it. That guys experience with them put me off them. JMO

[rockytopper]

Their right its Chinese made junk. Send me a pm I'd be more than glad to take it off your hands for a Chinese junk price now that the word is out on CPP:).

[Jeff70]

Kore3.com for sure!

[79-TA]

Hey Guys

2 years ago I purchased the Big Brake Kit from CPP thinking I would have them on the car by now, Wrong they are still in boxes. Now that the project is in the final stages I was thinking about what other Brake options I may have. I havent heard bad things about the CPP brakes but all the time and money put into this thing, maybe a nicer option is the best way to go.

Its a 72 Elcamino mostly to be driven on the street but want the option of track worthy brakes to go along with the great handling. Ive planned to budget $2500 for front and rear. Any suggestions? I was thinking 13inch rotor up front and 12 out back. 6 piston up front may be too much brake (if there is such a thing) but would really like to fit that into the budget if posssible. 18" wheels up front with stock spindles and 19" in the rear.

any and all info is appreciated

Thanks

Brent

A 6 piston caliper does not automatically equate to more braking force. The only factor in the caliper for determining braking force is the piston area (on one side, not both. That is, opposing pistons do not double the effective area and force on the rotor.)

Other factors are the master cylinder bore size, the rotor diameter, the tire diameter, the coefficient of friction of the pad, hydraulic or vacuum assist, and mechanical pedal ratio. All of these things need to be considered. Also, capacity of the master cylinder and brake booster can become an issue if either falls short.

You want track worthy brakes that will see mostly street miles. That means you want a pad that will work when hot, but isn't too aggressive or noisy. You should be making your decision largely around what pads are available for which systems if this really is your goal. It just so happens that one of my pads of choice, the Hawk HPS (which I run on my fox Mustang and Miata . . . the less frequently driven Trans Am gets the HP+'s) are available for your CPP calipers.

If you're going to be throwing brakes on both ends of the car, you should take the time to try to get the natural brake balance right, or at least close to right. Your car is very nose heavy and becomes even more so during load transfer under braking. This calculator is good for this, but perhaps has too many parameters for the average guy. You can still use it to get an idea of how much of the total braking the front will be doing. (Use the top left calculator and then look at the "% front weight (dynamic)" line.)

http://www.jakelatham.com/radical/info/brake_calculators.shtml#CGHeight

Really do try to get the natural brake balance right. A Proportioning valve can only do so much, and many underperform. If in doubt, err on the safe side of front brake bias.

[MuscleRodz]

If your thinking 6 piston, what wheels you own will come into play. Not all 6 piston calipers are created equal or will fit behind every wheel. As far as your budget, your going to be very close if not short on budget for 6 piston fronts unless you look at c6 calipers and then you get into wheel clearance issues as I mentioned above.

If your thinking cone racing, most brake options will be fine. You won't put alot of heat into the brakes due to slower speeds. if your thinking bigger high speed tracks, I would raise the budget and get something that will safely stop you from multiple high speed passes.

[zombiekiller]

i'd recommend going to kore3 as well. Tobin is an encyclopedia of knowledge. He dispelled many many assumptions that i had about brakes. Long story short, people get wrapped up on piston count. In many cases a twin or even single piston can and will outperform a 4 piston caliper. there's magic involved that i dont grasp fully, but i'm glad tobin is around to steer people int he right direction.

[79-TA]

One feature of calipers that is often completely overlooked is the piston material. Ideally, the piston is strong, light, and is something of an insulator between the hot pad and the fluid on the other side. Phenolic pistons do all of this well. Steel is a bit stronger, but doesn't do as well with conduction (that is, it is more conductive) and is heavier (the body and/or bridge of the caliper will do much more to determine the overall weight though.) Aluminum is about as light as phenolic material, but is highly conductive for heat transfer.

See Page 27

http://books.google.com/books?id=sjdDXMWhGIsC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


Of the caliper brands you mention:

Baer - stainless steel pistons. Some offer notches in the piston for less heat conduction
CPP - phenolic pistons in all big brake kits
Wilwood - stainless steel or aluminum pistons

[Skip Fix]

Back in the 80s when Ford used phenolic on all their truck/fullsized Bronco calipers they were troublesome, stick in the bores and the "fix" was to swap in steel pistons.

[79-TA]

Back in the 80s when Ford used phenolic on all their truck/fullsized Bronco calipers they were troublesome, stick in the bores and the "fix" was to swap in steel pistons.

Yes, back in the 80's . . .

[Skip Fix]

Just saying they used phenolic for that same reason but sometimes in practice they may be troublesome.

[Classic Nova & Performance]

Either the Baer or Wilwood system will be lighter weight if that is a consideration for you. We've used both Wilwood & Baer with excellent results.

Walt

[Beaux]

BAER. My take is weight. In talking with Mark at SC&C was informed that the wilwoods 1 - dont have the water and dust seals that the baers do and 2. pads / maintenance can become an issue with the wilwoods given you cant just run up to the parts store and run whatever pads you want whereas you can with the BAER systems.

I have brand new massive 6 piston wilwoods up front and the 4 piston out back. BRAND spanking new...never used, just installed....and they are being sold and replaced with BAER. Complete rework of my suspension even though never used because I put it together and ordered parts years ago built around the b-body spindle swap on my chevelle and I am sick of doing everything over again or leaving things on / off the table.

Its been explained to me thus -

BAER - street / track, less maintenance factors.
Wilwood - track / some street, additional potential maintenance factors / pads are proprietary (I guess)

No experience with the KORE 3 stuff but I have never heard anyone complain and I know they know their stuff and are very helpful. I'd pick betwixed Kore 3 and BAER if its not a pure dedicated track car. Whatever fits the budget in the end I suppose.