Spindle completely separated from balljoint!!

[spacepirate]

Hey guys,

I lifted my Camaro on Sunday to change my oil and the right tire was just dangling. Went to check it out and the spindle is completely separated from the UCA! The pics aren't the best but hopefully you can see it below. The arms are connected to L&6359263593H Kustoms spindles and I've got MAYBE 800 miles on with all brand new components. Is this common? What happened?

[MrQuick]

Hard to say from the picture but it looks like the ball joint insert broke away from the spindle. Give Luke a call, im sure he'll take care of it.

[Rod]

agreed! looks like the spindle insert came loose, cant say I have seen that happen before L&H will take care of it johnny on the spot

[spacepirate]

Thanks guys! I'll try to give him a shout tomorrow.

[SLO_Z28]

That is not common, and that is scary as hell.

[Simmo]

Sheeeesh...will watch this with interest.

Glad you're in one piece.

[LM7_67]

That is not common, and that is scary as hell.
x2

yeesh

[dontlifttoshift]

Being that the nut and cotter key are still in place it seems that the RideTech control arm is in tact.

[rchaskin]

Good thing you had a coilover when you jacked it up!!!
No telling how a regular coil would have shot out!!

[spacepirate]

Yeah, totally insane!

[exwestracer]

Yeah, totally insane!

Was this the same setup you had the bearing/seal issues with?

[dontlifttoshift]

Ray, you are thinking of a different pirate....... https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?85480-Ridetech-Spindle-Machined-Wrong&highlight=ride+tech+spindle+seal+issue

[SLO_Z28]

This isn't a RideTech issue, this is a L+H Spindle issue. Looking at their site, it looks like they don't have any warranty at all.

[exwestracer]

Ray, you are thinking of a different pirate....... https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?85480-Ridetech-Spindle-Machined-Wrong&highlight=ride+tech+spindle+seal+issue


Oops. Thanks, Donny.

[Pontiac Chris]

Wow, so lucky you found it on the lift not on the street or track, glad you're ok and hope you get it sorted.

[L & H Kustoms]

Travis thanks for the email and pics. As we spoke today I am very thankful that you and your car are ok and I am waiting for you to send the spindles back to us for inspection and we can determine exactly what happened. As I told you earlier today on the phone we have never had an issue like this before and theyre several guys with over 10k miles on them and one with 24k miles and they are all put to occasional track use. We have never had a failure before but as soon as I receive the spindle I will meet with our engineer and machinist to get to the bottom of what caused this and I assure you that we will take care of you and take the necessary measures to ensure that this doesn't ever happen again.

[spacepirate]

Thanks so much Luke! We'll get to the bottom of this!

[Cole]

Travis thanks for the email and pics. As we spoke today I am very thankful that you and your car are ok and I am waiting for you to send the spindles back to us for inspection and we can determine exactly what happened. As I told you earlier today on the phone we have never had an issue like this before and theyre several guys with over 10k miles on them and one with 24k miles and they are all put to occasional track use. We have never had a failure before but as soon as I receive the spindle I will meet with our engineer and machinist to get to the bottom of what caused this and I assure you that we will take care of you and take the necessary measures to ensure that this doesn't ever happen again.

Great Customer Service. You're right, very concerning.

[MrQuick]

Just curious Luke but is this one of your original designs or a revised version??

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?60681-L-amp-H-Kustoms-Pro-Billet-Tall-Aluminum-Spindles/page3

[Marcus SC&C]

I`ll be following this closely. It`s very possible that it`s not a spindle or A arm design/construction issue but a case of good parts not working and playing well together in a particular set up. The Ridetech arms are good pieces but are optimized for Ridetech`s tall spindle which has a 2" drop. With L&H non drop spindles and a car run at the same final ride height as it would be with Ridetech 2" drop spindles the angle of the upper A arms will be about 14* more steep. That uses up almost half of the ball joints travel,making it very possible that it could bind in bump. That would slam the ball joint taper insert back and forth in the spindle like a hammer (note the bore in the spindle appears to be ovoid now) and could cause it to loosen up and release. The lower A arms have no bump stops,nor do the coil overs (just a polymer ring to avoid shock damage) so the suspension can pretty much travel until the car hits the ground. With an all Ridetech set up with their spindles the headers would likely hit the ground before you over travel the ball joints so it`s not an issue and the lack of bump stops allows people to lower the car more for shows etc. but with the non drop L&H spindles the additional angle could easily put things in a bind. My guess is that a set of correct height bump stops or even a few more clicks of compression dampening might have avoided the problem even with mixed application parts. Luckily this type of failure can only separate when the wheel is off the ground and hanging which is why the car still drove fine. If it hadn`t been jacked up it may have continued to work okay until it rattled enough to invite inspection. Spacepirate, even though you didn`t buy your parts from us please feel free to give me a call. I`d be happy to go over your set up with you. Mark SC&C

[spacepirate]

Thank you for the concern. I'll definitely give you a call if Luke and L&H can't work it out.

[Twentyover]

6359263593.... What happened?

Unable to tell from the images- is there a taper or counterbore that prevents the insert from pulling through the upright?

[spacepirate]

I'm not sure. I'll have to check and see.

[Proforged]

A couple unrelated things: the ball joint bolts are coming up through the bottom - they are typically installed the other way. Also, there doesn't look to be enough thread engagement on those nuts.

[L & H Kustoms]

Unable to tell from the images- is there a taper or counterbore that prevents the insert from pulling through the upright?

The balljoint inserts have the taper machined into them and they're threaded in the spindle. 1-1/8" thread and then torqued and loctited in with 272 loctite. Once I receive them for inspection we will be able to determine exactly what caused the failure.

[spacepirate]

Hey Luke,

I sent you an email last week and tried to call but your voicemail is full. I can't send the broken parts until I receive the new ones. Give me a call.

[rockytopper]

You guys every figure out the cause of this failure?

[L & H Kustoms]

You guys every figure out the cause of this failure?

We are still waiting to receive the damaged spindle from Travis. We
Should be receiving It within the next few days and once we have a chance to examine it we will update everyone

[tonyvol]

We are still waiting to receive the damaged spindle from Travis. We
Should be receiving It within the next few days and once we have a chance to examine it we will update everyone

Any update on the separation?

[spacepirate]

Hey Luke,

I left you a message today on your cell phone and also tried your office line. My shop will send you the spindles as soon as they get the replacements.

[dontlifttoshift]

WoW!

[Mkelcy]

Hey Luke,

I left you a message today on your cell phone and also tried your office line. My shop will send you the spindles as soon as they get the replacements.

Your original post was made on August 20, and L&H asked for the spindles on August 21. Your car has presumably been out of commission all this time. Yet, you've apparently decided that you won't send the spindles to L&H unless they give you a replacement set.

Marcus (SC&C) suggested that the spindles may not have been at fault at all, if unmatched parts ended up hammering the insert with a side load that distorted the aluminum spindle, causing the failure. It seems to me there's a legitimate question whether the spindle was defective in some way, or whether it was subjected to improper use through mismatched parts.

If your application was the cause of the failure, I'm not sure why L&H should give you a new set of spindles; if the spindles were defective, they clearly need to do something. But until they have a chance to examine the failed parts, it doesn't seem that anything is going to happen to clear this up.

[spacepirate]

The complete suspension package was purchased through L&H upon Luke's recommendations. We'll get it all sorted but I was just trying to reach out to him through this thread as I know he monitors it.

[analyte]

I'm shocked that you're still waiting on replacements first. I would've had those in the mail the next day since it's not doing me any good with suspect parts.

I was hoping to see/hear some resolution quickly, but it seems this will be dragged out for some time. Myself, if a dealer, I'd want to see the defective parts before replacing anything regardless since this is a unique situation.

Kerry

[MrQuick]

I'm shocked that you're still waiting on replacements first. I would've had those in the mail the next day since it's not doing me any good with suspect parts.

I was hoping to see/hear some resolution quickly, but it seems this will be dragged out for some time. Myself, if a dealer, I'd want to see the defective parts before replacing anything regardless since this is a unique situation.

Kerry

I agree, standard modus operandi with manufacturers. If it were me i'd bring em up in person.

[Mkelcy]

The complete suspension package was purchased through L&H upon Luke's recommendations. We'll get it all sorted but I was just trying to reach out to him through this thread as I know he monitors it.

I still can't understand why you wouldn't return the spindles for examination. It's clear there may be something in your setup that destroyed the spindle. Even if they replaced the spindles, I wouldn't simply bolt in a new set and decide it was all good.

If L&H recommended the package, they should clearly do something; but you also need to modify your setup to avoid the issue again, if it was caused by mis-matched parts. Not sending the spindles simply creates drama.

[dontlifttoshift]

Mike, you are assuming that mismatched parts caused the failure, even saying "it's clear" that it happened like that. What am I missing.

Not sending the spindle leaves the car mobile until the new set arrives. I don't like beached whales in my shop either.

The drama is not that neither party has shipped spindles, it is that a couple of months later this is not resolved.

[Mkelcy]

Mike, you are assuming that mismatched parts caused the failure, even saying "it's clear" that it happened like that. What am I missing.

Not sending the spindle leaves the car mobile until the new set arrives. I don't like beached whales in my shop either.

The drama is not that neither party has shipped spindles, it is that a couple of months later this is not resolved.

I said, "it's clear" that the mismatched parts "may have" caused the failure, but you're right, it was too strong a statement.

But demanding replacement parts before submitting the damaged parts sort of leaves L&H holding the bag if it turns out their part wasn't defective and their advice (if any) on part selection wasn't to blame.

I work on my car in my own garage, yet I'd be able to figure out a way to keep the car mobile while the spindles were being examined (which would likely take less than a week, including transit time); surely any good shop can do so as well.

[dontlifttoshift]

Yep, what I have done in the past is pay for replacement parts up front and then get credited back later. Minimize down time and expedite repairs.

From an outside view, it would seem that both parties would want to button this up as quickly as possible.

[Twentyover]

I'm a very simple guy. The way I see it-

Failure internal to spindle- LHK responsible
Failure due to LHK recommendation of mis-matched parts- LHK responsible
Failure due to incorrect assembly- Spacepirate responsible

I've installed spindles- assuming you torque ball joints to spec, they should be tough to screw up.

I'm believing that, given that the information in the thread is correct and in the absence of any other mitigating evidence, the onus is on LHK to show why the the failure s not their responsibility.

What little I know about LHK spindles-
An insert (material unknown) is threaded into the spindle. the picture
63593.

I'm not seeing any threads.



Beyond that, resolution is none of my business, although outcome may affect future purchase decisions.

[spacepirate]

Oh, I misspoke earlier. My shop sent Luke the damaged spindle 2 weeks ago.

[spacepirate]

UPDATE! Luke emailed me this morning and has shipped out a new spindle to replace the damaged one. He is having his engineers look into why the separation occurred and will let us know when he gets the information which will hopefully be soon.

[csouth]

UPDATE! Luke emailed me this morning and has shipped out a new spindle to replace the damaged one. He is having his engineers look into why the separation occurred and will let us know when he gets the information which will hopefully be soon.

Glad you're getting a replacement spindle. You still may want to give Mark a call to verify the harmony of all those parts working together.

[Kenova]

You still may want to give Mark a cave to verify the harmony of all those parts working together.

Maybe run the suspension through a few different cycles before you put the springs and shocks in and tighten up all of the bolts. It should be easy to feel any binding if you can do it by hand.

Ken

[tonyvol]

I'm curious if the cause of the separation was found?

[vintageracer]

We all would like to know!

[69sponge]

Holy $#!^........ I have been away for a while playing in the dirt with my new jeep and just found this thread.
I have been running these spindles on my car for a few years now with no problems but i guess its time to pull them off and get them magnafluxed...
Spacepirate do you have any tracktime on your spindles or has it been just street driving?

Paul.

Paul.

[spacepirate]

No track time. Roughly 500 miles of driving around town. Hopefully this was just a one off issue.

[spacepirate]

Hey Luke, still haven't received the spindle you stated you shipped on Oct. 11th. Give me a call please.

[tonyvol]

Hey Luke, still haven't received the spindle you stated you shipped on Oct. 11th. Give me a call please.

Has the reason for the separation been found? I would think anyone wanting to buy these would like to know.

[parsonsj]

In related news??

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?94556-L-and-H-Kustoms-Spindles

[dontlifttoshift]

Good catch....

[Twentyover]

But still no explanation as to the cause of the failure?

[MrQuick]

No offence but if this was my company i'd want this problem resolved ASAP....something like this popping up on an internet search good or bad is a not so good thing.

[spacepirate]

I posted them for sale because it took a very long time to receive the replacement spindle and decided while the car was in the shop to switch over to the RideTech's TruTurn setup. Nothing is wrong with the used spindle and the replacement is new. I'm hoping that Luke will respond to the forum as to what he thinks went wrong. I feel it was just a random bad spindle.

[analyte]

The concern I have with these spindles involves the unknown. I'd be afraid to buy your spindles with one used in case it was part of a bad batch if that ends up being the problem with the one that failed. Too many unanswered questions....

[tonyvol]

I guess there is no news so far on the separation? Hopefully the cause is revealed.

[Johnny Blaze]

Boy, this is some bad advertising. Hope someone explains what happened.

[Bryce]

I am curious too

[garickman]

In related news??

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?94556-L-and-H-Kustoms-Spindles

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=39158

[spacepirate]

The ones I have for sale are not damaged and I have them up for sale on this site too. I'm not trying to hide anything in anyway but went with the Tru Turn setup and don't need these anymore.

[dontlifttoshift]

But what happened? Why did the insert come out of the spindle?

[spacepirate]

I sent the spindle back to Luke to check into it and I'm just waiting for him to chime in here. It was installed properly to the correct specifications.

[regal454]

Any word on the cause of the damage? What are the other options for a Tall spindle without drop?

[Johnny Blaze]

I would hope the manufacture would chime in, if they wish to continue sales.

[MonzaRacer]

I have seen several sets of these spindles and no ill effects. My bet is either they are too short for use with Ridetech arms or the ball joint angle may NOT allow the spindle and arm to play nice together. From damage I saw, but this is just preliminary observation.

[tonyvol]

Hey guys, this post has me very concerned about the L&H spindles I have on my 67 camaro. I haven't driven the car yet since I'm still in the process of completing my build. Is anyone using these with Speedtech control arms? The upper control arm I have is the one Speedtech uses with their AFX spindles. So it has no droop so it suppose to work with the taller than stock spindle. I thought Luke would have chimed in by now on the cause of the failure. Sure doesn't give me a good feeling about driving and pushing the car to the limit if there is a design flaw in these spindles. I've put a ton of money in this project and a failure like this probably won't end good.

[regal454]

I thought Luke would have chimed in by now on the cause of the failure. Sure doesn't give me a good feeling about driving and pushing the car to the limit if there is a design flaw in these spindles.

I was looking to purchase a set of tall spindles myself, and I liked the L & H spindle for the fact that there is no drop built into them. If Luke were confident in this product, I don't understand why he wouldn't have discussed his findings by this time?

[tonyvol]

Yeah I agree. Silence may not be the best thing if you are trying to sell these spindles.

[killer69]

Hey guys, this post has me very concerned about the L&H spindles I have on my 67 camaro. I haven't driven the car yet since I'm still in the process of completing my build. Is anyone using these with Speedtech control arms? The upper control arm I have is the one Speedtech uses with their AFX spindles. So it has no droop so it suppose to work with the taller than stock spindle. I thought Luke would have chimed in by now on the cause of the failure. Sure doesn't give me a good feeling about driving and pushing the car to the limit if there is a design flaw in these spindles. I've put a ton of money in this project and a failure like this probably won't end good.

I certainly can not comment on this issue but the Speedtech/AFX spindle on Speedtech arms has been arround for many years, we have not seen nor herd of any issues. Now when we sell the Tall spindles we sell our high clearance upper arms if the customer wants the ideal set up.

[lh_kustoms]

Hey guys sorry for the long overdue reply to this thread. We have recently moved our shop im stil trying to finalize an agonizing 2 year long divorce court battle and I just Had a baby girl last week so to say Ive been busy is a complete understatement. We have thoroughly inspected the spindle from Travis and both Engineers and machinist have determined that the failure was due to inadequate clearance to bump stop and because there wasnt enough clearance between the LCA bumpstop and the frame that overtime the insert was "hammered" out of the spindle. After a thorough inspection you can clearly see that the insert was forced out from the LCA bumpstop constantly contacting the frame due to not enough clearance. This was also verified after speaking with the shop that installed the whole kit. With the ride height that the car was setup at there was barely over an inch of clearance between the bumpstop and frame. so as the car was driven and the suspension compressed it was continually "hammering" the upper insert out until it finally gave way. As Marc from SC&C stated in the beginning of this thread that the force was like if the spindle was placed in a vice and you used a punch and hammer and hammered the insert out of the threads. Had there been adequate clearance between the bumpstop and frame this never would have happened. understandably this is concerning to some of you and if anyone running our spindles has questions or concerns about there spindles please feel free to call me at the shop 503-328-6172 or on my cell at 503-819-9043. Our Tall Pro Billet spindles are finally back in stock and ready to ship for those that have been waiting. For those that have already purchased them and were on backorder your spindles are shipping this week and you should receive them by this time next week.

[dontlifttoshift]

I am having trouble visualizing how inadequate clearance between the lower control arm and the bump stop on the frame caused the insert to hammer out of the top of the spindle where it is attached to the upper control arm.

Let me add to that, I am not stirring the pot, I just want to know the mechanics behind how that occurred.

[MrQuick]

I`ll be following this closely. It`s very possible that it`s not a spindle or A arm design/construction issue but a case of good parts not working and playing well together in a particular set up. The Ridetech arms are good pieces but are optimized for Ridetech`s tall spindle which has a 2" drop. With L&H non drop spindles and a car run at the same final ride height as it would be with Ridetech 2" drop spindles the angle of the upper A arms will be about 14* more steep. That uses up almost half of the ball joints travel,making it very possible that it could bind in bump. That would slam the ball joint taper insert back and forth in the spindle like a hammer (note the bore in the spindle appears to be ovoid now) and could cause it to loosen up and release. The lower A arms have no bump stops,nor do the coil overs (just a polymer ring to avoid shock damage) so the suspension can pretty much travel until the car hits the ground. With an all Ridetech set up with their spindles the headers would likely hit the ground before you over travel the ball joints so it`s not an issue and the lack of bump stops allows people to lower the car more for shows etc. but with the non drop L&H spindles the additional angle could easily put things in a bind. My guess is that a set of correct height bump stops or even a few more clicks of compression dampening might have avoided the problem even with mixed application parts. Luckily this type of failure can only separate when the wheel is off the ground and hanging which is why the car still drove fine. If it hadn`t been jacked up it may have continued to work okay until it rattled enough to invite inspection. Spacepirate, even though you didn`t buy your parts from us please feel free to give me a call. I`d be happy to go over your set up with you. Mark SC&C

seems this post could explain it.

[dontlifttoshift]

Marcus is talking about the upper ball joint possibly binding, I understand how that would work. Ride height too low, swing the ball joint past its usable travel and something has to give.