Experience with The Brake Man Tornado Calipers?

[65-fastback]

Now have Wilwood all around, 4 piston, but considering an upgrade.

Can I swap the calipers, I have the 5.25 mount type, and fort those who are running them; How do they perform compared to other brands??

I also would like to know where to buy the calipers.

Thanks!!

[SLO_Z28]

If you want to know why you should switch to them, and why they are far and away the best calipers out there talk to Warren the owner/inventor. Just buy direct : http://www.thebrakeman.com/ . These are THE best calipers out there, they are leaps and bounds better than other calipers out there for a variety of reasons, and unlike most aftermarket kits they arent designed for looks, they are designed to perform.

My experience with them comes from the drag world, where TBM could accomplish with 2 calipers and 2 rotors what took every other company 4 rotors and 8 calipers.

[Skip Fix]

He's in the same town as Wilwood, wonder if he was an ex Wilwood guy.

[David Pozzi]

He predates Willwood, used to work at Airheart Brakes way back when!

[DarkoNova]

In a nutshell, what's so OMG AMAZING about his stuff that blows the competition away?

...and what kind of crazy rotors does he have? o_O

[jpgolf14]

If you want to know why you should switch to them, and why they are far and away the best calipers out there talk to Warren the owner/inventor. Just buy direct : http://www.thebrakeman.com/ . These are THE best calipers out there, they are leaps and bounds better than other calipers out there for a variety of reasons, and unlike most aftermarket kits they arent designed for looks, they are designed to perform.

My experience with them comes from the drag world, where TBM could accomplish with 2 calipers and 2 rotors what took every other company 4 rotors and 8 calipers.

Care to elaborate??? That is an incredibly generic statement you have made.

Braking torque is a factor of fluid pressure, piston area, rotor diameter, and tire grip. There is not much black magic to be found in brakes. The only real "secrets" are how to minimize caliper flex which really is not the biggest issue with today's brakes.

[SLO_Z28]

Care to elaborate??? That is an incredibly generic statement you have made.

Braking torque is a factor of fluid pressure, piston area, rotor diameter, and tire grip. There is not much black magic to be found in brakes. The only real "secrets" are how to minimize caliper flex which really is not the biggest issue with today's brakes.

Caliper strength is vastly improved with the design they use. The piston drag which is HUGE to the overall performance of the brakes, their responsiveness is a direct result of the seal drag, and you can generate far more precise brake applications because the pads don't drag upon release. The hydrodynamics of fluid return are vastly superior to anyone else on the market, and again this leads to a more responsive caliper that is easier for the driver to predict and will generate a better feel and lower temperatures and wear characteristics. Lower seal drag can lower temps 2-300 degrees on a race car, meaning you can run a smaller rotor, and less brake ducting which will improve your aero. I could get into specifics, but not without stepping on the toes of some of the vendors here, which I wont do again.

[SLO_Z28]

He predates Willwood, used to work at Airheart Brakes way back when!

^This. He used to work for William Wood (Wilwood). He is literally right across the street.

[dontlifttoshift]

James, how do you like them on your car?

[Skip Fix]

He predates Willwood, used to work at Airheart Brakes way back when!

I remember them! But that might be dating myself.

My son's factory for Cooper Industries is also in Camarillo, so must be alot of manufacturing there.

[65-fastback]

Just emailed them, keep you posted!!

All I hear is that they are the best of the best, also curious about $$ to performance
Just need the calipers in my opinion

[jpgolf14]

Caliper strength is vastly improved with the design they use. The piston drag which is HUGE to the overall performance of the brakes, their responsiveness is a direct result of the seal drag, and you can generate far more precise brake applications because the pads don't drag upon release. The hydrodynamics of fluid return are vastly superior to anyone else on the market, and again this leads to a more responsive caliper that is easier for the driver to predict and will generate a better feel and lower temperatures and wear characteristics. Lower seal drag can lower temps 2-300 degrees on a race car, meaning you can run a smaller rotor, and less brake ducting which will improve your aero. I could get into specifics, but not without stepping on the toes of some of the vendors here, which I wont do again.

This reads like an advertisement. But since you aren't willing to get into specifics, I guess that is all we are going to get.

Regarding the seals. Every caliper I can think of uses a rectangular section piston seal. As the piston is extended the seal deforms into a trapezoid. When fluid pressure is released, the deformed seal pulls the piston back into the bore. Slightly retracting the piston. This seems to work pretty well. Are you suggesting TBM seal pulls the piston in further or faster? Even TBM website says they use square seals.

One of these days I will get around to reading his patent.

John

[DarkoNova]

I want to know what the deal is with those weird flower shaped rotors...

[SLO_Z28]

One of these days I will get around to reading his patent.


His SAE publications are what you really need to read, and its what I read. Specifically he has a great paper on lowering the hysteresis of elastometric reciprocating seal applications. There is also a good general primer on the subject by Robert Flitney, like all good books its expensive though. I only have associates level of engineering training, so I dont think this stuff is too hard of a read if I can get it.

For the record I do not have, nor have I ever had BrakeMan stuff on my car. Im just a big fan of stuff that works, not stuff that looks good but doesn't work and is made by people that don't know what they're doing and have no business in parts manufacturing. I like 10/10ths stuff.

[Roadrage David]

we Have two sets of the Tornado F4 brake systems!.. you only need to go tru there website to see and READ there tech pages!! info you wil NOT find on any other brake brand website!!!.. They are one of if not the best brake company out there. ther paternd inventions are suspected to be sneeky used bij a Formule 1 team!!. yep thats right!!!!!.
One of the sets we bought was second hands , we had it completly revised it was the set of Pete Mohrhausers national champion ship winning Transam/GT1 http://www.thebrakeman.com/proad_race
. Also when they made the car of tomorrow there Tornado F5 brakes where used . A top nascar team tested there system direcly agains a bleu zillion piston fitted 30.000 usd alcon system and that system was spangt in every way!!.
This team now uses there brakes but wil not let it out here is a picture. Brake man name has been cuverd bij duct tape https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/daytonae-1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/daytonae.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) . https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/viper02-1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/155/viper02.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) when you do your resirts you wil find out that everyting you need is a 4 pistons caliper . they practicly dont advertize and they sell there products more bij word of mouth . 75% of there sales is racing bisenis. NASA champio Ernesto rocco http://youtu.be/OrTxTRr5Z2E http://youtu.be/zpBPopHUe68 grave digger http://youtu.be/z3GGHrAN2LA most of there stuf is custom made to specification, so there is no real one size fits all!!!. Every tegnicel detail about our project car was ask from weight tiLl performance rear ratio transmission to be used tires with hight ecetera the whole 9 yards.

here is my set https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/ddrfinal2-1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/ddrfinal2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) if you are intrested ask for Corry he is your man!!

[dontlifttoshift]

My experience with them comes from the drag world, where TBM could accomplish with 2 calipers and 2 rotors what took every other company 4 rotors and 8 calipers.

I would like to know how this happened. Please tell me more about this. I don't think this guy is Harry Potter so he didn't cast a spell, seals aren't going to make you stop better, and in a drag situation heat isn't the issue (until you get close to the sandbox, then it can be an issue)


I could get into specifics, but not without stepping on the toes of some of the vendors here, which I wont do again.

Really, these calipers are so good but you can't tell us why without dragging another vendor through the mud? I don't want to be argumentative but I really want to know what makes them so far above and beyond anything that is out there.

What I am seeing is seals that retract the pistons faster, a steel bridge bolt together bridge, and an extra fluid transfer tube. I don't see any spaceship technology here but I guess I am missing it.

[65-fastback]

Just ordered the f3 calipers front and rear!!

Great service and advise from Cory.

Went by Roadrage and looks perfect!!

[dontlifttoshift]

Cool! Keep us posted.

[The GMR]

I want to know what the deal is with those weird flower shaped rotors...

designed for drag race applications. I will post more by the end of next week with some pictures. The rear rotor we selected is only about 4lbs, 11.75 diameter bu .500 thick.
jason

[The GMR]

Care to elaborate??? That is an incredibly generic statement you have made.

Braking torque is a factor of fluid pressure, piston area, rotor diameter, and tire grip. There is not much black magic to be found in brakes. The only real "secrets" are how to minimize caliper flex which really is not the biggest issue with today's brakes.

I respectfully Disagree.

Caliper flex IS the biggest issue with brakes, period. When it comes to the high end monoblocs literally teams of engineers spend countless hours working on how they can keep an all aluminum caliper from flexing at non-ambient temperatures.

Caliper flex is the direct culprit to higher brake temperatures as a whole. Flex at non-ambient temperature leads to piston drag which will increase friction between the pad/rotor when its lease needed. Flex will also lead to tapered pad wear as the caliper itself with fatigue do to increase temperatures, hence why you see so many calipers designed with staggered pistons, to combat the fatigue which creates flex. As the calipers flex the piston then becomes exponentially out of perpendicular to the rotor surface, causing piston drag and eventually locking up the caliper as temperatures increase.

If you do not factor in the flex of the caliper then your number for brake torque will be a false assumption. Not only do you need to factor in the flex of the caliper you also need to do so at operating temperature to get a real evaluation of the torque being applied.

I also do not see how the rotor diameter is a proper method of calculating realistic brake torque. I would rather focus on the operating temperature of the rotor, the co-efficient of the pads/rotor, and how well the rotor can cool down between heavy braking (basically how well does the rotor cool, or how many degrees on average before the pads are re-applied).

Just like everyone on here, I still consider myself in the learning stage, even though Myself and Jay have had extensive research in the brake department over the last 12 months.

Jason

[The GMR]

This reads like an advertisement. But since you aren't willing to get into specifics, I guess that is all we are going to get.

Regarding the seals. Every caliper I can think of uses a rectangular section piston seal. As the piston is extended the seal deforms into a trapezoid. When fluid pressure is released, the deformed seal pulls the piston back into the bore. Slightly retracting the piston. This seems to work pretty well. Are you suggesting TBM seal pulls the piston in further or faster? Even TBM website says they use square seals.

One of these days I will get around to reading his patent.

John

The key to the Brake Man components is the reduction of caliper flex at non-ambient temperatures. With a multi-forge process and very specific material selection the caliper halves are literally machined / designed around the optimal grain structure that the forge creates. Thus creating caliper halves with the least amount of flex per weight. Another generic key to flex reduction is that Warren never uses more then 4 pistons, keeping the caliper bolts/ internal bridges at an optimal distance from each other and piston center-line. To top it off, he uses a patented bridge system that is made from a very specific treated steel. When other calipers drastically fatigue / flex when approaching 400deg the Brake MAn caliper actually gets stronger as it approaches 400deg, then even in excess of 400 its deflection rate increase is actually exponentially less then traditional aluminum body monoblocs.

Jason

[The GMR]

When asked about brakes I suggest the Brake MAn for the 10/10th guys.

90 percent of the market will never exceed the limits of a Z06 monobloc. Brake man is not for everyone, but a great product none the less.

The GMR and The Brake MAn will be at SEMA, I will have some pics of our new GMR / Brake MAn kits next week. Starting with Rear end Pro-tour and Drag setups.
Jason

[ace_xp2]

I respectfully Disagree.

Caliper flex IS the biggest issue with brakes, period. When it comes to the high end monoblocs literally teams of engineers spend countless hours working on how they can keep an all aluminum caliper from flexing at non-ambient temperatures.

I don't know if you could call it the biggest issue. Back in the day flex was simply accepted for the gains of reduced unsprung mass and increased rotor size. The trade off still lead to faster times even with a spongy pedal. The value of flex reduction needs to be balanced against the cost of increased weight or bridge height, which in turn leaves less rotor space.


Caliper flex is the direct culprit to higher brake temperatures as a whole. Flex at non-ambient temperature leads to piston drag which will increase friction between the pad/rotor when its lease needed.

Piston drag? I suppose it could be an issue depending on the amount of flex you end up with. In the event you got to permanent warping you could end up with pistons cocking in the bores.


Flex will also lead to tapered pad wear as the caliper itself with fatigue do to increase temperatures, hence why you see so many calipers designed with staggered pistons, to combat the fatigue which creates flex. As the calipers flex the piston then becomes exponentially out of perpendicular to the rotor surface, causing piston drag and eventually locking up the caliper as temperatures increase.

Staggered pistons have to do with front to rear taper, that isn't the usual mode of caliper flex, which presents itself as pad taper top to bottom. Staggered pistons help with the uneven temperatures that occur from front to rear of the pad. per wilwood:


Multi-piston calipers, normally with six or more pistons, have bore sizes that increase in size from front to rear.

This allows a pressure differential between the leading and trailing edge of the caliper, thus providing an even wear pattern along the entire length of the brake pad, hence it controls brake taper. This is necessary because incandescent material and debris from the leading edge of the pad is trapped between the pad and rotor; it tends to float the trailing edge of the pad off the rotor. A larger piston at the trailing edge of the pad provides more pressure to compensate for this debris buildup and keep the pad flat against the rotor.

Given that, I wonder if there is actually more taper generated with staggered bore when the pads aren't at temperature?


If you do not factor in the flex of the caliper then your number for brake torque will be a false assumption. Not only do you need to factor in the flex of the caliper you also need to do so at operating temperature to get a real evaluation of the torque being applied.

I also do not see how the rotor diameter is a proper method of calculating realistic brake torque. I would rather focus on the operating temperature of the rotor, the co-efficient of the pads/rotor, and how well the rotor can cool down between heavy braking (basically how well does the rotor cool, or how many degrees on average before the pads are re-applied).

Just like everyone on here, I still consider myself in the learning stage, even though Myself and Jay have had extensive research in the brake department over the last 12 months.

Jason
You may want to include other factors in calculating brake torque, but you're definately going to need diameter in there somewhere.
True though, a braking systems ability to deal with thermal load is usually a bigger factor then the maximum brake torque it can generate these days.

The non ambient temperature thing isn't much of a starter with bolted bridge designs. As pre stressed materials behave differently than unstressed ones do. And the bolt isn't aluminium.

[The GMR]

I don't know if you could call it the biggest issue. Back in the day flex was simply accepted for the gains of reduced unsprung mass and increased rotor size. The trade off still lead to faster times even with a spongy pedal. The value of flex reduction needs to be balanced against the cost of increased weight or bridge height, which in turn leaves less rotor space.

With the advances in calipers across the board between manufactures Just about all the components are the same in the high end calipers minus the efforts and advantages due to a reduction in flex. Pistons, seals, etc... are extremely uniform between the manufactures higher end calipers (the concept of Monkey see, Monkey do). I see the reduction of FLEX the most important hurdle that will improve the calipers performance, second will be reduction in operating temperature (a secondary effect due to decreases in flex at operation temp) The Weight of the Brake MAn components will impress you, I will have some real world numbers mid next week. On average with the short track cars I believe it was only a 3 ounce difference between the F5 from brakeman and the Alcon / Brembo counterpart (this is going off memory so I might be a little off, the point is that it was so close that the increase of consistent brake torque was well worth the weight gain)

Piston drag? I suppose it could be an issue depending on the amount of flex you end up with. In the event you got to permanent warping you could end up with pistons cocking in the bores.

All Calipers have piston drag, just some less then others. I have seen pistons clock in the Bore after 15 -20 mins in an autocross run, then leaking seals right after that. Caliper heats up, pistons become out of alignment with rotor face, they clock and damage internal seal tolerance, then cool down and leak.

Staggered pistons have to do with front to rear taper, that isn't the usual mode of caliper flex, which presents itself as pad taper top to bottom. Staggered pistons help with the uneven temperatures that occur from front to rear of the pad. per wilwood:

Yes, I know, but the issue I was referring to was that the caliper body itself will bow in the center, or more likely off-center due to staggered pistons. So as it heats up it will want to not only open the "C" of the caliper but also Bow the relative "center of piston force" outward, or away from the rotor face.

The "relative center of piston force" is not actually the center of the body between the bolts holding the halves together but the true center where the piston force if directed. If the pistons were the same diameter and symmetrical in relation to the body then the center will be the "center of piston force". In a staggered piston caliper the "center of piston force" will be offset to the side that favors the larger pistons, and sometimes even higher / lower then the vertical caliper center-line.

Given that, I wonder if there is actually more taper generated with staggered bore when the pads aren't at temperature?

Yes, but they tend to operate at temperature and get to that temperature rather quickly. Maybe is not rare cases where you only drive your car for 5 mins and then HARD stop, let the vehicle sit for some time, then repeat never letting heat build in the brakes.

You may want to include other factors in calculating brake torque, but you're definately going to need diameter in there somewhere.
True though, a braking systems ability to deal with thermal load is usually a bigger factor then the maximum brake torque it can generate these days.

I still do not see diameter as a factor, If it were so then why is it that countless 12.19 rotor setups stop better then Most 14 inch setups (referring to the rear end)? I see diameter as more of a "style" issue then actual empirical data to be used when determining which brake setup is better then another. This is just my opinion, so take it for what it worth. With that being said, unless I was building a car to go out and kick some serious butt.... something more street friendly.... then I would have no problem running Z06 caliper with 14 inch rotors.

The non ambient temperature thing isn't much of a starter with bolted bridge designs. As pre stressed materials behave differently than unstressed ones do. And the bolt isn't aluminium.

I feel as though ALL data regarding brakes should be taken at non-ambient temperature otherwise its just BS. The materials being used in calipers these days have far too drastic influxes between ambient temp and operating temp. A bolted caliper with all Aluminum components in Theory is better then a Monobloc, to some extent. A bolt however is still not even close to the decrease in deflection a steel bridge provides with a bolt. The other thing with the bolted calipers that really bothers me is that often the halves to NOT line up properly, causing internal problem with fluid transfer. (this is more of a manufacturing tolerance issue then initial design / concept)


I still have quite a but I will be digging into, including the elusive carbon setups! :twothumbs
Jason

[Roadrage David]

I have sponserd some cars in the Dutch super car chalenge with racing oil. and at times imported racing parts that would last including high end LS7 raceing engine.. These guys drive around in 200.000/ 400.000 usd/euro GT/ le mans racing cars like the prat and miller le mans corvette(they got 2 of them) including porshes ferraris Moslers you name it they have around 7 cars in one stable ....most use ap brakes and ecspensif ones as wel.
when i was in the middel of my custom brake ordering and was on a regulair contact with Corry from brake man.
he told me to chek these ap brakes under sirten conditions...
I showed these guys the free spinning of the brake man brake systems, while there brake rotors didnt even turned one revolution!!.
the mecanic said thats no problem we loosen everyting up befor the race.
i whent along for a race and sure enoughf he showed me the free turning of the rotors/rims.
But during the first pit stop when they put a new rim and tire on the car i askt him to spin the tire!!. he did and to his sirprize it gave 1 revolution only!!!!. witch ment that afther they heat up they DRAG BIG TIME.
The parasitic drag on al 4 brakes could be as high as 60 hp in sutch a car , not to metion brake fade and wear!!..
also the torque output with caliper flex with 6/8 pistons is terible.

Afther al the info i got back then and read on there website and afther seeing the diference with ap brakes and brembo used by the high end GT race teams overhere in europe. i wil never change to another brake system iventho my car is not road worthy yet!!!.
There filosefy is bang on . infact it realy sirprises me that some of the high end builders on this forum dont use them!!!. iven some of the top notch vendors dont know about them . It was marcus from Savitske classic & Custom who pointed me out to them.
iven tho he is not selling these brakes he knew imidiatly what i needed for our project ""Road Force One""... as usual forgive my spelling....

[jpgolf14]

I still have quite a but I will be digging into, including the elusive carbon setups! :twothumbs
Jason

Somehow I was not subscribed to this thread. Anyway, ace_xp2 brought up most of the concerns I was talking about.

Regarding the brake torque. You absolutely need the effective brake radius (diameter). In fact that is the definition of torque. T = F * d. T = torque, F = force (Frictional force from pads), d = distance (from center of rotation to roughly the center of the pad). In most cases d ~= rotor diameter / 2 - 1. You cars can only hold so much torque before they slip (lock up). This torque is a function of weight on the tire and coefficient of friction between the road and tire. Let say we have a 3500lb pro touring car. At max braking (weight transfer) each front tire has ~1300lbs on it. For estimation, the coefficient of friction between the road and a sticky tire is around 1.0. So the force the tire can resist before slipping is Ff = mu * Fn. Where Ff is frictional force (force tire can resist), mu is coefficient of friction, and Fn is normal force (weight on tire). So Ff = 1.0 * 1300 = 1300lbs. Now that force acts on the tread which is ~13" (26" tall tire) from the center of rotation. So the torque the tire can resist is T = F * d = 1300 * 13 = 16900 in-lbs. So this is the torque the pads need to create in order for the car to perform a max performance stop. Now the torque of the brakes acts on its own lever arm which is smaller than the tire (obviously). So the larger the lever arm (rotor diameter) and less force needs to be produced by the pads.

Example 1, 12" rotor. d = 12/2-1 = 5". So the force needed to be produced by the pads is F = T / d = 16900 / 5 = 3380lbs.
Example 2, 14" rotor. d = 14/2-1 = 6". So the force needed to be produced by the pads is F = T / d = 16900 / 6 = 2817lbs.

As I'm sure you can imagine, less force means less heat generated.

Now lets take it one step further. Assume we are using a high performance street pad with a coefficient of friction of 0.4.

Example 1, 12" rotor. The force needed to be produced by the pistons is Fn = Ff / mu = 3380 / 0.4 = 8450lbs
Example 2, 14" rotor. The force needed to be produced by the pistons is Fn = Ff / mu = 2817 / 0.4 = 7043lbs

So that is roughly the force acting on the caliper body. Now the force is cantilevered by roughly the distance from the bridge/bridge bolts to the center of the pistons. Lets randomly pick ~1.25". Now lets idealize the caliper sides as a cantilevered beam. The deflection at the pistons is:

y = F*l^3 / (3*E*I). Where F is our piston force, l is the length of the beam, 1.25", E is the material modulous of elasticity (10.4*10^6 psi for AL), and I is the moment of inertia. In the case of a rectangular beam, I = b^3*h/3. Where b is the thickness of the caliper half, lets say 0.75", and h is the width of the beam, or length of the caliper. Lets say 6" for a nice sized caliper (this is probably conservative).

I = 0.5^3*6/3 = 0.25

Example 1, 12" rotor. The displacement of the caliper body at the piston line (caliper flex) is y = 8450*1.25^3 / (3*10.4*10^6*0.25) = 0.0021"

Example 2, 14" rotor. The displacement of the caliper body at the piston line (caliper flex) is y = 7043*1.25^3 / (3*10.4*10^6*0.25) = 0.0018"

Granted there are a lot of assumptions and simplifications, some stated, some not. But I doubt its more than one magnitude off. So the question is, are yo worried about 0.01 - 0.02" of caliper flex? Do you think you can feel that? Also keep in mind he has to fight 20% MORE flex than a 14" kit just from diameter alone. So the caliper needs to be more than 20% stiffer than its competitors to have a stiffer system overall.




Now the word strength gets thrown around a lot. I am assuming you are referring to stiffness, since that the important measurement for a caliper. Are you SURE his material GAINS STIFFNESS with heat? That is basically impossible. If true you should be able to easily make billions selling that material to darn near every industry. I will also point out that stiffness is basically a "family" property. All aluminums have about the same stiffness and all structural steels have about the same stiffness. In addition the slope of stiffness to temperature is about the same for all metals. So they all lose stiffness at about the same rate.

[Skip Fix]

Man all that math reminds be of college physics and gives me a headache:)

[DarkoNova]

wat

Every time my math teachers told me I'd use this stuff in the real world, I thought they were full of it.

Who knew they were right? :seizure:

[The GMR]

Somehow I was not subscribed to this thread. Anyway, ace_xp2 brought up most of the concerns I was talking about.

Regarding the brake torque. You absolutely need the effective brake radius (diameter). In fact that is the definition of torque. T = F * d. T = torque, F = force (Frictional force from pads), d = distance (from center of rotation to roughly the center of the pad). In most cases d ~= rotor diameter / 2 - 1. You cars can only hold so much torque before they slip (lock up). This torque is a function of weight on the tire and coefficient of friction between the road and tire. Let say we have a 3500lb pro touring car. At max braking (weight transfer) each front tire has ~1300lbs on it. For estimation, the coefficient of friction between the road and a sticky tire is around 1.0. So the force the tire can resist before slipping is Ff = mu * Fn. Where Ff is frictional force (force tire can resist), mu is coefficient of friction, and Fn is normal force (weight on tire). So Ff = 1.0 * 1300 = 1300lbs. Now that force acts on the tread which is ~13" (26" tall tire) from the center of rotation. So the torque the tire can resist is T = F * d = 1300 * 13 = 16900 in-lbs. So this is the torque the pads need to create in order for the car to perform a max performance stop. Now the torque of the brakes acts on its own lever arm which is smaller than the tire (obviously). So the larger the lever arm (rotor diameter) and less force needs to be produced by the pads.

Example 1, 12" rotor. d = 12/2-1 = 5". So the force needed to be produced by the pads is F = T / d = 16900 / 5 = 3380lbs.
Example 2, 14" rotor. d = 14/2-1 = 6". So the force needed to be produced by the pads is F = T / d = 16900 / 6 = 2817lbs.

As I'm sure you can imagine, less force means less heat generated.

Now lets take it one step further. Assume we are using a high performance street pad with a coefficient of friction of 0.4.

Example 1, 12" rotor. The force needed to be produced by the pistons is Fn = Ff / mu = 3380 / 0.4 = 8450lbs
Example 2, 14" rotor. The force needed to be produced by the pistons is Fn = Ff / mu = 2817 / 0.4 = 7043lbs

So that is roughly the force acting on the caliper body. Now the force is cantilevered by roughly the distance from the bridge/bridge bolts to the center of the pistons. Lets randomly pick ~1.25". Now lets idealize the caliper sides as a cantilevered beam. The deflection at the pistons is:

y = F*l^3 / (3*E*I). Where F is our piston force, l is the length of the beam, 1.25", E is the material modulous of elasticity (10.4*10^6 psi for AL), and I is the moment of inertia. In the case of a rectangular beam, I = b^3*h/3. Where b is the thickness of the caliper half, lets say 0.75", and h is the width of the beam, or length of the caliper. Lets say 6" for a nice sized caliper (this is probably conservative).

I = 0.5^3*6/3 = 0.25

Example 1, 12" rotor. The displacement of the caliper body at the piston line (caliper flex) is y = 8450*1.25^3 / (3*10.4*10^6*0.25) = 0.0021"

Example 2, 14" rotor. The displacement of the caliper body at the piston line (caliper flex) is y = 7043*1.25^3 / (3*10.4*10^6*0.25) = 0.0018"

Granted there are a lot of assumptions and simplifications, some stated, some not. But I doubt its more than one magnitude off. So the question is, are yo worried about 0.01 - 0.02" of caliper flex? Do you think you can feel that? Also keep in mind he has to fight 20% MORE flex than a 14" kit just from diameter alone. So the caliper needs to be more than 20% stiffer than its competitors to have a stiffer system overall.




Now the word strength gets thrown around a lot. I am assuming you are referring to stiffness, since that the important measurement for a caliper. Are you SURE his material GAINS STIFFNESS with heat? That is basically impossible. If true you should be able to easily make billions selling that material to darn near every industry. I will also point out that stiffness is basically a "family" property. All aluminums have about the same stiffness and all structural steels have about the same stiffness. In addition the slope of stiffness to temperature is about the same for all metals. So they all lose stiffness at about the same rate.


Went through very similar calcs etc.. with Warren. Thanks for the generic assumption that I need a lesson is some basics... Warrens numbers / findings are slightly different. Either way, your numbers although do show some relevance, they however are not even close to the real world. I made the comment about diameter because I see it as more of a "fall back" for some to confuse the general consumer with fancy calcs etc that really do not display what is going on. I guess its fair to say you won the "thread calcs war"... I can sit here and literally tear your calculations apart on how they realistically have ZERO relevance to the actual real word of braking and how the results pan out, but I do not feel the need to waste my time. If you are into an engineering battle then feel free to contact Warren, he is an engineer and Im sure would love to talk it over with you. (warren being the owner / engineer of Brake MAn)

Per what Warren says, the caliper will gradually gain stiffness approaching 400deg, not "heat" in general. Anyone, even non-engineers know that eventually it will decrease in stiffness.. which I stated. Do not pull certain statements I made out of context without referring to what I said as a whole.

Very nice job on explaining some elements to a brake system with the calculations, but I can tell you with my "human eye" I can see excess of .090 flex in some common wilwoods (at room temp), and quite a bit more then 0.0021" with the common monobloc weather it is Baer, Brembo, PBR etc...

The bottom line is this... Brake Man works better, has less drag, and provides more stopping force for less weight. I do not need to provide useless calculations to "prove" anything. After all you still completely avoided my overall point. These calculations are BS unless real world testing is done at operating tempature and force. Brake Man has a large following of successful racers who with one simple statement trumps any numbers on paper.... "it works".. The Funny Thing about this is that Brake Man does NOT give out product to racers for marketing purposes... ALL racers who swear by it (including many who were offered money and product from competitors) pay for it. Often, just like stated above teams will cover up or remove the brake man logo, competition is fierce.

I have listened to everyone about how "their" calipers are better etc.. Baer, Wilwood, PBR, Brembo, AP, etc..... BrakeMan.... to this day, Brake Man is the only one I truly feel has the upper hand. I'm NOT an engineer and my degree is Not related to engineering. I have never been too fond of "engineers" as a whole because most of them talk down to people that are NOT engineers when the reality is that far too often (especially in this industry)... the engineers are wrong.

[jpgolf14]

Went through very similar calcs etc.. with Warren. Thanks for the generic assumption that I need a lesson is some basics... Warrens numbers / findings are slightly different. Either way, your numbers although do show some relevance, they however are not even close to the real world. I made the comment about diameter because I see it as more of a "fall back" for some to confuse the general consumer with fancy calcs etc that really do not display what is going on. I guess its fair to say you won the "thread calcs war"... I can sit here and literally tear your calculations apart on how they realistically have ZERO relevance to the actual real word of braking and how the results pan out, but I do not feel the need to waste my time. If you are into an engineering battle then feel free to contact Warren, he is an engineer and Im sure would love to talk it over with you. (warren being the owner / engineer of Brake MAn)

Per what Warren says, the caliper will gradually gain stiffness approaching 400deg, not "heat" in general. Anyone, even non-engineers know that eventually it will decrease in stiffness.. which I stated. Do not pull certain statements I made out of context without referring to what I said as a whole.

Very nice job on explaining some elements to a brake system with the calculations, but I can tell you with my "human eye" I can see excess of .090 flex in some common wilwoods (at room temp), and quite a bit more then 0.0021" with the common monobloc weather it is Baer, Brembo, PBR etc...

The bottom line is this... Brake Man works better, has less drag, and provides more stopping force for less weight. I do not need to provide useless calculations to "prove" anything. After all you still completely avoided my overall point. These calculations are BS unless real world testing is done at operating tempature and force. Brake Man has a large following of successful racers who with one simple statement trumps any numbers on paper.... "it works".. The Funny Thing about this is that Brake Man does NOT give out product to racers for marketing purposes... ALL racers who swear by it (including many who were offered money and product from competitors) pay for it. Often, just like stated above teams will cover up or remove the brake man logo, competition is fierce.

I have listened to everyone about how "their" calipers are better etc.. Baer, Wilwood, PBR, Brembo, AP, etc..... BrakeMan.... to this day, Brake Man is the only one I truly feel has the upper hand. I'm NOT an engineer and my degree is Not related to engineering. I have never been too fond of "engineers" as a whole because most of them talk down to people that are NOT engineers when the reality is that far too often (especially in this industry)... the engineers are wrong.

Hi Jason,

I have no intention of starting a "war", lol. Just trying to help people understand what is going on in a braking system. I don't sell brakes and have no intention of starting.

In my opinion, brake systems adhere to theoretical physics pretty well, after all its just a simple hydraulic system. No different than a hydraulic ram in a bulldozer. Just trying to help people understand what is going on. The one challenge is caliper flex. I work in an industry that has not had a structural failure in over 30 years. We are very confident we engineer things correctly. Granted in my industry it would take 3 engineers 6 months to accurately analyze flex in a caliper. Obviously I am not willing to put in that kind of effort for something I don't really car that much about. Hence the use of some assumptions, like idealizing a caliper side as a beam.

People like to dis on engineers. I don't know what that is all about. There are defiantly some bad engineers out there, just like any other profession. And I suspect many of the so called engineers in the auto aftermarket, are not actual engineers. I noticed you quoted, "engineers", I suspect you know what I am talking about.

You pointed out some Wilwood calipers, I suspect you are talking about the dynalite? I couldn't agree more, that is not a caliper you will find on any of my cars. That caliper does not even have a bridge bolt. That is a large gap to not have any support. I was referring to more "high performance" mid size and large bodied calipers.

Finally, I know the brake man holds his secrets close at hand. If he has a truly revolutionary product, I don't blame him. I'm just trying to learn more about the specifics. Like anyone else, I am skeptical of broad claims with no specific details. We have all been burned by outrageous claims. I am not loyal to any particular brand, I have run Delco Moraine, PBR, Wilwood, Brembo, Denso calipers in my cars. If Warren is willing to have a candid conversation, I would love to. It is not to late for me to convert.

John

[The GMR]

Hi Jason,

I have no intention of starting a "war", lol. Just trying to help people understand what is going on in a braking system. I don't sell brakes and have no intention of starting.

In my opinion, brake systems adhere to theoretical physics pretty well, after all its just a simple hydraulic system. No different than a hydraulic ram in a bulldozer. Just trying to help people understand what is going on. The one challenge is caliper flex. I work in an industry that has not had a structural failure in over 30 years. We are very confident we engineer things correctly. Granted in my industry it would take 3 engineers 6 months to accurately analyze flex in a caliper. Obviously I am not willing to put in that kind of effort for something I don't really car that much about. Hence the use of some assumptions, like idealizing a caliper side as a beam.

People like to dis on engineers. I don't know what that is all about. There are defiantly some bad engineers out there, just like any other profession. And I suspect many of the so called engineers in the auto aftermarket, are not actual engineers. I noticed you quoted, "engineers", I suspect you know what I am talking about.

You pointed out some Wilwood calipers, I suspect you are talking about the dynalite? I couldn't agree more, that is not a caliper you will find on any of my cars. That caliper does not even have a bridge bolt. That is a large gap to not have any support. I was referring to more "high performance" mid size and large bodied calipers.

Finally, I know the brake man holds his secrets close at hand. If he has a truly revolutionary product, I don't blame him. I'm just trying to learn more about the specifics. Like anyone else, I am skeptical of broad claims with no specific details. We have all been burned by outrageous claims. I am not loyal to any particular brand, I have run Delco Moraine, PBR, Wilwood, Brembo, Denso calipers in my cars. If Warren is willing to have a candid conversation, I would love to. It is not to late for me to convert.

John

I can see how idealizing the caliper side as a beam is a good assumption, I just don't see that as a realistic measure of the stiffness for the assembly as a whole. Either way, I took your posting as you talking down to me, I may not utilize all the appropriate terminology for engineering discussions but I completely understand and comprehend the actual math / forces. Were good, but have no fear! Call Warren and ask him your concerns / questions next time your in the market. Weather or not he will disclose everything I do not know, but I can assure you that what he says directly relates to the performance of his caliper designs. He has a new one that I believe will be out for sema, not 100% sure but he already have the new patent in place.

6 months, and only 3 engineers? That is still really fast for some industries!

Yes, I know exactly what your talking about. Its as if the automotive industry has become accustomed to using the term "engineer" loosely. The best racers, crew chiefs, builders, designers, etc... are NOT engineers or even went to engineering school. Why is this? Not sure, but its common practice in the auto industry. Just about all other industries are completely different. Hence, why I prefer more hands on experience over paper theories and calculations. I have been burned by far too many claims that all seem valid on paper, yet not even close in the rear world. so If someone tells me he is a automotive engineer I'm very skeptical, outside of automotive is a different story. I've had professional multi-degree engineers examine my work / parts and even built a trophy truck for one, all who have complemented design etc..

[jpgolf14]

I've had professional multi-degree engineers examine my work / parts and even built a trophy truck for one, all who have complemented design etc..

No doubt, your builds always look awesome.

[ace_xp2]

Alright, finally some time to reply, lets see here...


With the advances in calipers across the board between manufactures Just about all the components are the same in the high end calipers minus the efforts and advantages due to a reduction in flex. Pistons, seals, etc... are extremely uniform between the manufactures higher end calipers (the concept of Monkey see, Monkey do). I see the reduction of FLEX the most important hurdle that will improve the calipers performance, second will be reduction in operating temperature (a secondary effect due to decreases in flex at operation temp) The Weight of the Brake MAn components will impress you, I will have some real world numbers mid next week. On average with the short track cars I believe it was only a 3 ounce difference between the F5 from brakeman and the Alcon / Brembo counterpart (this is going off memory so I might be a little off, the point is that it was so close that the increase of consistent brake torque was well worth the weight gain)

Finite Element Analysis doesn't have a lot of interest in monkeys, I'd say most of these designs are based off of well done engineering. Since they're all doing the same thing, it's no wonder the best designs look the same. Remember the nineties "every car is a blob" era? Aerodynamics isn't sexy when everyones doing it, but it's hard to escape. Style came back because it sold in a copied world, doesn't mean it's better for getting through the air with.

That's the thing with brake man, doing a specific job different than everyone else always makes me question why? I love new technologies, especially destructive, paradigm changing ones. But Brake Man's been around quite a while and the monkeys haven't caught on yet, and I think that may be because there isn't anything to catch.

Reducing flex may be a moot point at the total flex exhibited in modern, two piece designs. Thus, while it may be true that a steel bridge section has less flex than the pre stressed aluminum of a bolted bridge, that could be nothing but academic in terms of real world gain. The lack of monkey see monkey do as regards to the brake man design would hint at this.


All Calipers have piston drag, just some less then others. I have seen pistons clock in the Bore after 15 -20 mins in an autocross run, then leaking seals right after that. Caliper heats up, pistons become out of alignment with rotor face, they clock and damage internal seal tolerance, then cool down and leak.

Oh it happens, I just don't know how often it happens to a good set of Stoptechs, or Wilwoods, or what have you. (Assuming we've got the correct amount of rotor/pad mass to shed the heat)


Yes, I know, but the issue I was referring to was that the caliper body itself will bow in the center, or more likely off-center due to staggered pistons. So as it heats up it will want to not only open the "C" of the caliper but also Bow the relative "center of piston force" outward, or away from the rotor face.

The "relative center of piston force" is not actually the center of the body between the bolts holding the halves together but the true center where the piston force if directed. If the pistons were the same diameter and symmetrical in relation to the body then the center will be the "center of piston force". In a staggered piston caliper the "center of piston force" will be offset to the side that favors the larger pistons, and sometimes even higher / lower then the vertical caliper center-line.

So why claim that staggered pistons are to combat material fatigue? Many companies do stagger and non stagger, if the stagger were there to aid the materials, you'd need a caliper redesign to make non stagger work. The reason for stagger is pad taper, not a reduction in midspan flex.


Yes, but they tend to operate at temperature and get to that temperature rather quickly. Maybe is not rare cases where you only drive your car for 5 mins and then HARD stop, let the vehicle sit for some time, then repeat never letting heat build in the brakes.

What I'm thinking is a street car may increase total pad life with non staggered pistons as the system rarely spends time in the upper end of the operating temperature. Thus pad temperature decrease at the trailing edge due to the material from the front isn't occuring at the level equal to the stagger design.


I still do not see diameter as a factor, If it were so then why is it that countless 12.19 rotor setups stop better then Most 14 inch setups (referring to the rear end)? I see diameter as more of a "style" issue then actual empirical data to be used when determining which brake setup is better then another. This is just my opinion, so take it for what it worth. With that being said, unless I was building a car to go out and kick some serious butt.... something more street friendly.... then I would have no problem running Z06 caliper with 14 inch rotors.

That's system balance at work, the front is generating a lot more braking force than the rear. If you have a 13front/13rear system, with say identical pads, the fronts will come up to temp long before the rears, if they ever do. This can get really complicated because you can make up for the excess in rear rotor mass through a lower coefficient pad material, or with physically less pad material. It can be more difficult to maintain brake bias this way though. That's why a matched system that allows the same type of pad material to come up to temp at the same time front to rear is generally nicer. Though in performance circles often sacrificed in the name of bias changes at temp or increases in at the limit performance.

And diameter can have a very large impact on the performance envelope of a given system. It not only provides a good way to add mass to sink heat into, but it also typically increases surface area which helps get that heat out again. To top it off, you get that much more leverage.


I feel as though ALL data regarding brakes should be taken at non-ambient temperature otherwise its just BS. The materials being used in calipers these days have far too drastic influxes between ambient temp and operating temp. A bolted caliper with all Aluminum components in Theory is better then a Monobloc, to some extent. A bolt however is still not even close to the decrease in deflection a steel bridge provides with a bolt. The other thing with the bolted calipers that really bothers me is that often the halves to NOT line up properly, causing internal problem with fluid transfer. (this is more of a manufacturing tolerance issue then initial design / concept)

How many high end calipers have internal fluid transfer? I see external tubes on most mid level and up systems.

As for the value of the bolt, don't forget it's also stressing the aluminum. We're not only relying on the bolt to resist deflection, we're also using the aluminum under compression, which is more effective than the unstressed material. As effective as a steel bridge? likely not, though again I'm thinking that the gain in total deflection is more academic than of value.


I still have quite a but I will be digging into, including the elusive carbon setups!
Jason
More carbon knowledge is always good, it would be nice if there were a way to get linear response out of something like the zr1 brakes. One of the members here had a set, but found the change in grip as temperature increased hard to compensate for. Carbotech makes different compatible pads, maybe they'd have a set that could work.

[The GMR]

Alright, finally some time to reply, lets see here...

Finite Element Analysis doesn't have a lot of interest in monkeys, I'd say most of these designs are based off of well done engineering. Since they're all doing the same thing, it's no wonder the best designs look the same. Remember the nineties "every car is a blob" era? Aerodynamics isn't sexy when everyones doing it, but it's hard to escape. Style came back because it sold in a copied world, doesn't mean it's better for getting through the air with.

That's the thing with brake man, doing a specific job different than everyone else always makes me question why? I love new technologies, especially destructive, paradigm changing ones. But Brake Man's been around quite a while and the monkeys haven't caught on yet, and I think that may be because there isn't anything to catch.

He has patents, One major factor why others have not directly copied his product.

Reducing flex may be a moot point at the total flex exhibited in modern, two piece designs. Thus, while it may be true that a steel bridge section has less flex than the pre stressed aluminum of a bolted bridge, that could be nothing but academic in terms of real world gain. The lack of monkey see monkey do as regards to the brake man design would hint at this.

Oh it happens, I just don't know how often it happens to a good set of Stoptechs, or Wilwoods, or what have you. (Assuming we've got the correct amount of rotor/pad mass to shed the heat)

So why claim that staggered pistons are to combat material fatigue? Many companies do stagger and non stagger, if the stagger were there to aid the materials, you'd need a caliper redesign to make non stagger work. The reason for stagger is pad taper, not a reduction in midspan flex.

If there was no flex then taper would never be a problem. Staggered pistons are in place as a "patch" to combat uneven heat / wear int he pads from the caliper body itself moving when at operating temp. Noting more, noting less.

What I'm thinking is a street car may increase total pad life with non staggered pistons as the system rarely spends time in the upper end of the operating temperature. Thus pad temperature decrease at the trailing edge due to the material from the front isn't occuring at the level equal to the stagger design.

That's system balance at work, the front is generating a lot more braking force than the rear. If you have a 13front/13rear system, with say identical pads, the fronts will come up to temp long before the rears, if they ever do. This can get really complicated because you can make up for the excess in rear rotor mass through a lower coefficient pad material, or with physically less pad material. It can be more difficult to maintain brake bias this way though. That's why a matched system that allows the same type of pad material to come up to temp at the same time front to rear is generally nicer. Though in performance circles often sacrificed in the name of bias changes at temp or increases in at the limit performance.
Yes good points, hence why all of our kits are designed around specific piston size, caliper, rotor, and pad setups to complement accordingly.

And diameter can have a very large impact on the performance envelope of a given system. It not only provides a good way to add mass to sink heat into, but it also typically increases surface area which helps get that heat out again. To top it off, you get that much more leverage.
Yes and no, If you can get the job done with less rotational mass then why not? I don't see diameter as a good comparison factor, like stated before. A 12.19 is more then capable of working better then a 14 all day long. Again, just my opinion.

How many high end calipers have internal fluid transfer? I see external tubes on most mid level and up systems.
brake man has a unique patented dual transfer tube system, but I was referring to some more common off the shelf two piece calipers.

As for the value of the bolt, don't forget it's also stressing the aluminum. We're not only relying on the bolt to resist deflection, we're also using the aluminum under compression, which is more effective than the unstressed material. As effective as a steel bridge? likely not, though again I'm thinking that the gain in total deflection is more academic than of value.


More carbon knowledge is always good, it would be nice if there were a way to get linear response out of something like the zr1 brakes. One of the members here had a set, but found the change in grip as temperature increased hard to compensate for. Carbotech makes different compatible pads, maybe they'd have a set that could work.

Sorry, I dont have any time to expand too much on this right now. (actually I have a few minutes.. see below.. haha! )
Jason

[The GMR]

I would also like to rephrase my earlier statement about piston drag... NOT all calipers have piston drag. The Brake Man calipers are Zero-Drag calipers. Earlier I was referring to the market as a whole without brakeman in a way.

This is achieved with a design that is more rigid, higher stiffness at temp, and the piston O rings that literally pull the pistons back into the body once the pressure is released.

In a PT car this means -
1. Instantly "frees" up the chassis when brake is released in a corner
2. Faster transition to throttle
3. Increase and more predictable response in the suspension
4. helps to stabilize the roll center of the chassis
5. increase is power from zero drag on the driveline, along with ability to reduce rotational mass / weight of rear end

In a drag car this means -
1. ability to walk the car deeper, as if it were "chained to a tree"
2. 2-300 improvement in 60ft times
3. safer and more predictable deceleration, reduction of wheel hop
4. increase power and cars ability to launch with more power going directly into moving the vehicle forward, not fighting brake resistance.
5. better for "short shutoff" tracks
jason

[The GMR]

Its one thing to say you have the highest quality components, but another to actually put your money where your mouth is. The Brake Man did just that, talked a big game, then stepped to the plate and surprised everyone.

Below is an Independent Brake Caliper Test that was performed By Tex Racing (also known as G-force South). They are the gentlemen who brought you the infamous rear end fluid pump Dyno along with extremely high quality rear third member internal fluid pumps. Just to be perfectly clear, THE GMR and THE Brake Man did NOT perform the below tests, these were all done by Tex Racing with their Dyno setup.

This test was between the Brake Man F5 caliper (retail of $1741.05) and the NASCAR Brembo Monobloc (retail of $5400).

First Up- The Brake Man F5


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Second Up – The $5400 NASCAR Brembo Monobloc

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

“The testing on this page reflects the clean release and zero drag benefits of the Brake Man Tornado Calipers.

Figure #1 – Shows the rotor temperatures are significantly lower with The Brake Man caliper. The low temperatures reflect the fact that the caliper is retracting the pads completely. No drag equals no wasted horse power, Extra power for FREE!

Figure #2 – Shows the release characteristics of the pads caused from deflection. The design of our caliper results in ZERO deflection at 1000PSI. Most calipers will actually loose 50% of their strength at 300 degrees. As the race progresses into the later laps and temperatures rise, the deflection will become worse. The more deflection, the less consistency in the pedal. The improvement in the pad release characteristics also benefits in the resulting lower rotor temperatures.

Figure #3 – Shows the resultant torque output. As you can see, our torque output is higher and more consistent, resulting in improved feedback to the driver. You can see the Brake Man Tornado caliper is virtually a straight line. The torque degradation shown is often misinterpreted as pad fade. Our ridged caliper permit fine tuning of your pad compound.

If you have any questions regarding the test data or products support please contact us. The staff at the Brake Man have over 70 years of combined experience in the technical side of the automotive industry. If would be our pleasure to assist you in any way.

Sincerely,

Warren Gilliland, President of The Brake Man Inc. ”

[jpgolf14]

Tried to post this earlier but it didn't work.


and the piston O rings that literally pull the pistons back into the body once the presser is released.

I am curious to see what you think about the downsides of a "typical" low drag caliper. These were quite common in GM vehicles in the 80's. They used a chaferred channel in the caliper seal land that allowed the o ring to flex more. This means that the seal had a longer pull and retracted the pistons further into the bores. Of course this reduces drag, but also means more fluid is required to start braking action again. For this reason, it is recommended to use a quick take up master cylinder which has a larger initial bore designed to get the pads back to the rotors. Does the brake man suggest a quick take up master with his calipers? Otherwise you would have a longer softer initial pedal, not something most people like. Of course it is also important to note that all calipers pull the pistons back when pressure is released. Just a low drag caliper pulls the piston back much further.

Granted I don't know how the Brake Man achieves low drag, but I would guess it is a similar fashion.

I found this picture on the net that shows what I am talking about. (The forum won't let me attach it right now, will try again later).

[jpgolf14]

Its one thing to say you have the highest quality components, but another to actually put your money where your mouth is. The Brake Man did just that, talked a big game, then stepped to the plate and surprised everyone.

Below is an Independent Brake Caliper Test that was performed By Tex Racing (also known as G-force South). They are the gentlemen who brought you the infamous rear end fluid pump Dyno along with extremely high quality rear third member internal fluid pumps. Just to be perfectly clear, THE GMR and THE Brake Man did NOT perform the below tests, these were all done by Tex Racing with their Dyno setup.

This test was between the Brake Man F5 caliper (retail of $1741.05) and the NASCAR Bremebo Monobloc (retail of $5400).

First Up- The Brake Man F5

Second Up – The $5400 NASCAR Brembo Monobloc

“The testing on this page reflects the clean release and zero drag benefits of the Brake Man Tornado Calipers.

Figure #1 – Shows the rotor temperatures are significantly lower with The Brake Man caliper. The low temperatures reflect the fact that the caliper is retracting the pads completely. No drag equals no wasted horse power, Extra power for FREE!

Figure #2 – Shows the release characteristics of the pads caused from deflection. The design of our caliper results in ZERO deflection at 1000PSI. Most calipers will actually loose 50% of their strength at 300 degrees. As the race progresses into the later laps and temperatures rise, the deflection will become worse. The more deflection, the less consistency in the pedal. The improvement in the pad release characteristics also benefits in the resulting lower rotor temperatures.

Figure #3 – Shows the resultant torque output. As you can see, our torque output is higher and more consistent, resulting in improved feedback to the driver. You can see the Brake Man Tornado caliper is virtually a straight line. The torque degradation shown is often misinterpreted as pad fade. Our ridged caliper permit fine tuning of your pad compound.

If you have any questions regarding the test data or products support please contact us. The staff at the Brake Man have over 70 years of combined experience in the technical side of the automotive industry. If would be our pleasure to assist you in any way.

Sincerely,

Warren Gilliland, President of The Brake Man Inc. ”

Hey Jason,

Do you happen to know the following information about each setup tested:

rotor diameter
rotor thickness
rotor weight
pad
piston volume
where the rotor temp was recorded

Finally, do you have the raw data or just the pictures?

[The GMR]

Hey Jason,

Do you happen to know the following information about each setup tested:

rotor diameter
rotor thickness
rotor weight
pad
piston volume
where the rotor temp was recorded

Finally, do you have the raw data or just the pictures?

The same diameter, weight, thickness brembo rotor was used along with PF-1 comp pad.

I dont remember what the piston sizes were, I can ask though. TBM only makes the F5 in 1.75 - 2 inch so that can narrow it down. They are only 4 piston as well, compared to the brembo monobloc 6 piston.

Raw Data? What more Raw do you want? Clearly I do Not have anything more then what was posted, I made it very clear that Tex Racing was responsible for the testing. If you are familiar with Tex then you would understand the gravity behind these numbers. Tex is phenomenal with Dyno setups and real "race" like testing conditions. Here is a little example of the third member dyno they utilize.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/f18-1.jpg

Given the pedigree of Tex Racing It will be more then fair to assume that the testing was done with no bias and in a very professional manor. If it were Me coming forward posting some graphs then I could see a need for further explanation. These tests were done with professional consistency utilizing pulls from 130 to 80 back to back 8 times. The same pad / rotor was used to keep the playing field even... Then again I would consider it not even because BrakeMan did not utilize his pantented hurricane rotor, I would venture to guess that the F5 / Hurricane would provide even better results but that test is yet to be released... :secret:


As for a caliper to caliper comparison, these graphs are dam good at showing what is going on when race speeds are applied.

[jpgolf14]

The same diameter, weight, thickness brembo rotor was used along with PF-1 comp pad.

I dont remember what the piston sizes were, I can ask though. TBM only makes the F5 in 1.75 - 2 inch so that can narrow it down. They are only 4 piston as well, compared to the brembo monobloc 6 piston.

Raw Data? What more Raw do you want? Clearly I do Not have anything more then what was posted, I made it very clear that Tex Racing was responsible for the testing. If you are familiar with Tex then you would understand the gravity behind these numbers. Tex is phenomenal with Dyno setups and real "race" like testing conditions. Here is a little example of the third member dyno they utilize.

Given the pedigree of Tex Racing It will be more then fair to assume that the testing was done with no bias and in a very professional manor. If it were Me coming forward posting some graphs then I could see a need for further explanation. These tests were done with professional consistency utilizing pulls from 130 to 80 back to back 8 times. The same pad / rotor was used to keep the playing field even... Then again I would consider it not even because BrakeMan did not utilize his pantented hurricane rotor, I would venture to guess that the F5 / Hurricane would provide even better results but that test is yet to be released... :secret:


As for a caliper to caliper comparison, these graphs are dam good at showing what is going on when race speeds are applied.

Cool, same rotor.

The F5 has very large pistons it seems. I looked it up on the website and it looks like 2.0" pistons only? That is almost certainly far greater piston area than the Brembos. Piston area is a trade off. More piston area gets you greater pad force (at the same fluid pressure) but at the cost of a longer pedal. I think we can all agree both the F5 and the Brembo is enough to lock up the brakes on virtually any car at will. So it comes down to driver feel. Do you like a longer softer pedal or a shorter firmer pedal? Personal preference. Or course rotor diameter plays a part as well. Larger rotor will give a softer shorter pedal. So it makes total sense that with the same rotor the kit with the larger pistons will have greater brake torque (for a given fluid pressure) but the brake pedal will be longer.

Its really hard to tell given the spike in the pad torque on pressure release. On the first stop it looks like the Brembo spike is larger for sure, then a bunch look the same. I don't get why there would be a spike though. Seems like the slope would be more gradual, but not an increase in torque, not sure on that one. I was curious if you had the raw data to see the actual values at pressure release. I was hoping to look at the magnitude and duration of the spike.

So I have a tally of some calcs I did with a bunch of common brake kits. Now I have added the F5 kit with 12.19" rotor. Is that the normal combination?

BE AWARE, this table assumes same pad compound and same caliper flex.

Also, just to let you know, I have always used the red/green scheme in this table. Nothing has changed to make any kit look better or worse, as can be seen in previous version of this table that I have shared.

Finally I would be interested in any feedback on this. This was a learning tool that helped me decide what I wanted to do. Based on my understand of the physics it should be correct. But you never know. If you see a problem let me know.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/7842985490_dfe937b249_h-1.jpg

[ace_xp2]

He has patents, One major factor why others have not directly copied his product.

We've talked about that before, I can't see how there isn't an issue with the patented bridge design versus porsches and the now defunct girlings prior designs. IOW, he's got a patent, but I don't see it surviving being contested:

It's funny, the PatentGenius website lets you click the authors name, but doesn't display his additional patents.
patent 7137488 (http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/7137488.html) is for the C channels, but I think porsche would have something to say about that:
63650
That design was on the 930 a little less than 30 years before his patent.
That's from here:https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?90719-Lets-Talk-Brake-Kits&p=917436&highlight=#post917436


If there was no flex then taper would never be a problem. Staggered pistons are in place as a "patch" to combat uneven heat / wear int he pads from the caliper body itself moving when at operating temp. Noting more, noting less.

So if the caliper were infinitely ridgid, there wouldn't be any temperature change from leading to trailing edge? How does that make sense? The wilwood explanation seems to fit much better than the idea that it's actually a result of the caliper bowing at the center leading to excess front wear (seems odd with the bowing being at the center) which is than mitigated by moving the bowing off center... que?


Yes and no, If you can get the job done with less rotational mass then why not? I don't see diameter as a good comparison factor, like stated before. A 12.19 is more then capable of working better then a 14 all day long. Again, just my opinion.

If you can do more with less mass then do so, but eventually as brake input increases with more weight, speed, downforce, even just plain more aggressive braking zones, you're going to need... well, more to do that more with. Doesn't mean that you couldn't get away with a 12.19in. rotor on a 3000lb pt car, but a 4500lb pt truck just might need a little different stuff.


brake man has a unique patented dual transfer tube system, but I was referring to some more common off the shelf two piece calipers.

Which ones? I don't think it's useful to compare a $1200 f5 caliper to ones costing a fifteenth the price, like say the forged superlight.


Below is an Independent Brake Caliper Test that was performed By Tex Racing (also known as G-force South). They are the gentlemen who brought you the infamous rear end fluid pump Dyno along with extremely high quality rear third member internal fluid pumps. Just to be perfectly clear, THE GMR and THE Brake Man did NOT perform the below tests, these were all done by Tex Racing with their Dyno setup.

Sweet! Data! I'd actuallly looked for this info before as he mentions it on the product description page of the f5 but I couldn't find it anywhere else. It's odd though, it doesn't mention which model of Brembo was used, which makes it hard to compare pad surface area and pad depth to one another.
Speaking of which, what is the pad surface area and pad depth on the brakeman?
And there's the initial spike he makes mention of as the pad not releasing, but the Brake man also displays a spike on the third event which appears largely similar. So in both sets of data there appears to be one "grab event" followed by it not showing up. So if this is only an occasional occurrence, this data doesn't really show advantage brake man as it too displays an event in eight stops.

[Roadrage David]

Porshe brakes are ""Brembo""!!??.......

[jpgolf14]

Porshe brakes are ""Brembo""!!??.......

Porsche has been using Brembos for as long as I am aware. At least well into the 80's.

[Jay@GMR]

Tried to post this earlier but it didn't work.



I am curious to see what you think about the downsides of a "typical" low drag caliper.

*unecessary pad drag/loss of HP
*elevated caliper/rotor temps
*having to run larger rotors to compensate/dissipate heat. (more rotational mass)
*pad taper due to the elivated caliper temps caused by the "typical drag" (caliper flexing)

For most, this should be all the advantage one would need. As for a longer/softer pedal due to piston retracting...... this fraction of a fraction of a second would be un-noticed by most.... and lets say you are that in tune with your car and driving abilities, its called compensating for this very predictable moment. With the "typical" low drag symptoms I have mentioned above.......you/typical caliper have no way to compensate that would not affect direct performance. (running larger rotors).




Cool, same rotor.

The F5 has very large pistons it seems. I looked it up on the website and it looks like 2.0" pistons only? That is almost certainly far greater piston area than the Brembos. Piston area is a trade off. More piston area gets you greater pad force (at the same fluid pressure) but at the cost of a longer pedal. I think we can all agree both the F5 and the Brembo is enough to lock up the brakes on virtually any car at will. So it comes down to driver feel. Do you like a longer softer pedal or a shorter firmer pedal? Personal preference. Or course rotor diameter plays a part as well. Larger rotor will give a softer shorter pedal. So it makes total sense that with the same rotor the kit with the larger pistons will have greater brake torque (for a given fluid pressure) but the brake pedal will be longer.

Yes we all agree with this, and as you have stated it really is personal preference as far as the "feel".......but for the same reasons I mentioned above I would rather adapt to a little (very little) feel than to run a larger rotor just to keep things in tact. Again, rotational mass as well as just the plain old savings in cost per rotor (for us non-sponsored guys) Just check the price of a 14+" rotor versus a 13" or even a 12.19x .810 (rear) that you CAN run in race conditions on a 3000# car.....substantial savings!.

Yes I do believe they both will lock up the tires, but one cost $1700 vs the others $5000 AND the lesser of the two will out perform the other. Proof is in the dyno sheet. You can point out the piston sizes.... but at the end of the day this is one of BREMBO's top calipers.....OVER double the price and did NOT out perform The Brake Mans F5.
Its really hard to tell given the spike in the pad torque on pressure release. On the first stop it looks like the Brembo spike is larger for sure, then a bunch look the same. I don't get why there would be a spike though. Seems like the slope would be more gradual, but not an increase in torque, not sure on that one. I was curious if you had the raw data to see the actual values at pressure release. I was hoping to look at the magnitude and duration of the spike.



BE AWARE, this table assumes same pad compound and same caliper flex.

Without real world caliper flex taken into account, you will never have an accurate chart. With the caliper flex that all these calipers do experience, the "pedal feel", "brake torque", etc. shown in this highly detailed chart are pretty much just a size/spec chart IMO. After all, when these calipers flex.... many of these numbers are wrong and are simply an educated guess based on perfect world scenarios (not real world testing like the Brake Man provides).
Also, just to let you know, I have always used the red/green scheme in this table. Nothing has changed to make any kit look better or worse, as can be seen in previous version of this table that I have shared.

Finally I would be interested in any feedback on this. This was a learning tool that helped me decide what I wanted to do. Based on my understand of the physics it should be correct. But you never know. If you see a problem let me know.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/7842985490_dfe937b249_h-1.jpg

Thanks, Jay

[jpgolf14]

Jason,

I basically meant that "any" braking system is strong enough to lock up the brakes. I think we can mostly agree on that. Beyond the max braking torque, which is irrelevant since "all" brakes can lock up the tires, of course there are things like temperature control, pedal feel, pad taper, and drag losses.

I will maintain that caliper flex has little to do with pedal feel WHEN COMPARED TO the mechanical and hydraulic gain in the system. You are not going to change my mind on this unless you can tell me for a specific pad force, the difference in deflection between a Brake Man caliper and another quality caliper. And clearly I am not going to change your mind either.

Yes, the Brake Man has done some testing. And I really appreciate that. I wish he would have picked calipers with the same sized piston area. It is really easy for customers to think bigger is better.

[Roadrage David]

Porsche has been using Brembos for as long as I am aware. At least well into the 80's. aczackly my tought. and a no match against the brake man brakes in the tests in this topic.....

[jpgolf14]

aczackly my tought. and a no match against the brake man brakes in the tests in this topic.....

While that is arguable either way. Keep in mind this is comparing top of the line Brembos (although we still don't know the model number) vs top of the line Brake Man. Both make many products at many price levels. Are you in the market for a $1700+ caliper?

You can be sure that the calipers Porsche buys from Brembo are not top of the line. Especially in their normal iron brakes systems.

[ace_xp2]

Porshe brakes are ""Brembo""!!??.......

Don't think they were in the seventies when they used that bolted bridge design. Which is too bad really, as it would only make it even easier for a company like brembo to go back to that design if it were an advantage. The girling version apparently used steel bridges too, but I can't find pics of it.

[The GMR]

Jason,

I basically meant that "any" braking system is strong enough to lock up the brakes. I think we can mostly agree on that. Beyond the max braking torque, which is irrelevant since "all" brakes can lock up the tires, of course there are things like temperature control, pedal feel, pad taper, and drag losses.

I will maintain that caliper flex has little to do with pedal feel WHEN COMPARED TO the mechanical and hydraulic gain in the system. You are not going to change my mind on this unless you can tell me for a specific pad force, the difference in deflection between a Brake Man caliper and another quality caliper. And clearly I am not going to change your mind either.

Yes, the Brake Man has done some testing. And I really appreciate that. I wish he would have picked calipers with the same sized piston area. It is really easy for customers to think bigger is better.


the gentleman your referring to is Jay, I'm Jason. He is the other part of GMR. Sorry for the confusion.
Jay and Jason, as if we need more confusion! haha
jason

[jpgolf14]

the gentleman your referring to is Jay, I'm Jason. He is the other part of GMR. Sorry for the confusion.
Jay and Jason, as if we need more confusion! haha
jason

Doh that is confusing. Oh well, I think I'm done with this thread anyway. There is lots of good info for people to think about. Let me know if you run across any extra data.

[The GMR]

We've talked about that before, I can't see how there isn't an issue with the patented bridge design versus porsches and the now defunct girlings prior designs. IOW, he's got a patent, but I don't see it surviving being contested:

That's from here:https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?90719-Lets-Talk-Brake-Kits&p=917436&highlight=#post917436

So if the caliper were infinitely ridgid, there wouldn't be any temperature change from leading to trailing edge? How does that make sense? The wilwood explanation seems to fit much better than the idea that it's actually a result of the caliper bowing at the center leading to excess front wear (seems odd with the bowing being at the center) which is than mitigated by moving the bowing off center... que?

sorry, flex is the problem. If a company decides to skate around the actual issue at hand then its their decision. Once the rotor / pads are up to temp, yes in a perfect rigid caliper then the temp will be the same... but since the world in not perfect you will see slight increase from front to back... but its 5-15deg on average. Look at the posted data, notice the temps from the non-staggered F5 brake man caliper... can you explain why it is literally dominating the brembo? The brake man is a 4 piston symmetrical caliper, the brembo is a 6 piston trailing caliper that was designed for Cup cars and Daytona la-mans chassis.

If you can do more with less mass then do so, but eventually as brake input increases with more weight, speed, downforce, even just plain more aggressive braking zones, you're going to need... well, more to do that more with. Doesn't mean that you couldn't get away with a 12.19in. rotor on a 3000lb pt car, but a 4500lb pt truck just might need a little different stuff.

read my previous comments.[I][B]

Which ones? I don't think it's useful to compare a $1200 f5 caliper to ones costing a fifteenth the price, like say the forged superlight.

[I][B]The F5 is $1700, and NO I was not making that comparison. I was referring to an F3 for the majority of my discussion. I was also NOT talking about wilwood, actually I was referring to a $1100 caliper from a viper that I pulled apart about a year ago.

Sweet! Data! I'd actuallly looked for this info before as he mentions it on the product description page of the f5 but I couldn't find it anywhere else. It's odd though, it doesn't mention which model of Brembo was used, which makes it hard to compare pad surface area and pad depth to one another.
Speaking of which, what is the pad surface area and pad depth on the brakeman?
And there's the initial spike he makes mention of as the pad not releasing, but the Brake man also displays a spike on the third event which appears largely similar. So in both sets of data there appears to be one "grab event" followed by it not showing up. So if this is only an occasional occurrence, this data doesn't really show advantage brake man as it too displays an event in eight stops.

This thread is going in circles, your not even reading what I have posted in the past. I get the feeling your argument is with GMR and not the actual facts that are being discussed here in the thread. If you have concerns, then please call Brake Man or Tex Racing and tell them that Wilwood is the one who makes "sense".

I will no longer respond to your comments, you have wasted enough of my time.

jason

[ace_xp2]

Precisely as I expected, the Brembo caliper likely uses a smaller total pad size which is why it generates a more rapid temperature change. Marketing at its finest, not surprising you no longer want to discuss facts as they come to bear, betting on the wrong horse always hurts.

I quite like any time any company puts out bigger and better, I don't like any time any company touts it as the only viable solution in any instance with no supporting data. Whether it be floater hubs or composite material calipers.

A couple good things about the Brake Man calipers then, before I finish up. The F4 and F3 are actually quite well priced, here's the f4 at $520 per:
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Brake-Man-F4-Tornado-Offroad-Caliper-p-29060.html
and the f3 at $420 per:
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Brake-Man-F3-Tornado-Offroad-Caliper-p-29061.html
That is a pretty decent price for a caliper assuming that they fit a decent sized pad, which is information that I haven't been able to find.
But if I'm going to spend $1200 (per my attachment, which I see is now a little old) or worse yet, $1700, I want to know what I'm getting additionally versus any other company. Things like how much bigger the pad is compared to others and even the other brakeman components are very important to know.

That's the way I came to realise that the c6 monoblock wasn't value added against the billet superlight running a 7420 size pad, per here:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/2970608-c6-zo6-calipers-good-bad.html
Ahhh, it's the joy of actually learning something, the only unfortunate consequence being how much harder it is to sell product to an informed consumer. Scary, I know.

Thanks for your time.

[Roadrage David]

Jason,

I basically meant that "any" braking system is strong enough to lock up the brakes. I think we can mostly agree on that. Beyond the max braking torque, which is irrelevant since "all" brakes can lock up the tires, of course there are things like temperature control, pedal feel, pad taper, and drag losses.

I will maintain that caliper flex has little to do with pedal feel WHEN COMPARED TO the mechanical and hydraulic gain in the system. You are not going to change my mind on this unless you can tell me for a specific pad force, the difference in deflection between a Brake Man caliper and another quality caliper. And clearly I am not going to change your mind either.

Yes, the Brake Man has done some testing. And I really appreciate that. I wish he would have picked calipers with the same sized piston area. It is really easy for customers to think bigger is better.
jpgolf14. reading your post especialy the first 2 lines. i like to know something. im NO ecsperd bij any means. but thussend the amound of Braking Torque works with 1 where its placed( like in a racing engine) and 2 thusend it depend on the rim tire combo and weight and speed of the car where braking torque comes in to play!??, and makes a diferens??.

Sure most calipers can lock up the wheels. but at wat level of torque wil the brakes do that , how about very wide rubber iven slicks, aint it posible to brake mutch ""later"" and ""harder"" then systems who are diferend and have lesser brake tourque more flex and drag??... and due to this, give less feel (feedback) in the brakes and pedal ???.
there for cant brake as late ore hard ore respond as quik and be as consistend???........ thusend the amound of brake torque and no drag less heat ecetera hase everyting to do with it???.. and there for is ecstreemly relevand??.............

[jpgolf14]

jpgolf14. reading your post especialy the first 2 lines. i like to know something. im NO ecsperd bij any means. but thussend the amound of Braking Torque works with 1 where its placed( like in a racing engine) and 2 thusend it depend on the rim tire combo and weight and speed of the car where braking torque comes in to play!??, and makes a diferens??.

Sure most calipers can lock up the wheels. but at wat level of torque wil the brakes do that , how about very wide rubber iven slicks, aint it posible to brake mutch ""later"" and ""harder"" then systems who are diferend and have lesser brake tourque more flex and drag??... and due to this, give less feel (feedback) in the brakes and pedal ???.
there for cant brake as late ore hard ore respond as quik and be as consistend???........ thusend the amound of brake torque and no drag less heat ecetera hase everyting to do with it???.. and there for is ecstreemly relevand??.............

David, I think I understand what you are asking.

I worked this calculation in another thread, but I'll do it again here.

Its important to remember that tires stop the car, not brakes. So all the brakes have to do is reach the friction limit of the tires. Now lets make a worst case scenario. A heavy PT car with lots of tire. Lets assume a 4000lb car with slicks. I'll assume that under max braking, due to weight transfer there is 3000lbs over the front end or 1500lbs on each front tire. Sounds pretty conservative right? Now the previous time I did this calculation I assumed a coefficient of friction of 1.0 between the rubber and the road. That was an estimation for top end street tire on a clean road. I took a look at this Hot Rod article where they claim a drag slick on a prepped strip can reach a coefficient of friction of 1.3. Road courses are not prepped like drag strips, but I'll use 1.3 to keep this conservative.

So the tire will slip when the force on the tire tread exceeds its maximum. The maximum is calculated as Ff = Fn * mu. Where Ff is frictional force, Fn is normal force (force pushing down on the tire), and mu is the coefficient of friction.

Ff = 1500 * 1.3 = 1950lbs

Now that force creates a torque around the spindle. T = F * d. Where T is torque, F is force (the frictional force in our case), and d is the distance from the center of rotation to the tread. I suspect most people here is 26" tall tires. But I will assume a 27" tall tire to keep everything conservative.

T = 1950 * 27/2 = 26325 in lbs = 2194 ft lbs - pretty impressive

Now that torque has to be reacted by the braking system in order to use the full potential of the tires. That is, create the same torque that the tire can handle, before lockup. But of course rotors are much smaller than tires, so the force on the pad is much higher than the force on the tread. So this is where I will split and do two separate calculations. Now here is where the choices become tricky. Do I really care about the Tornado F5 ($1700/ea) caliper? No not really, and I still haven't heard what rotor is commonly used with this caliper either. But for the sake of argument I will include it on a 12.2" rotor that the GMR has been talking about on here. I will also do the F4 caliper in its largest piston size, since some on here are arguing that bigger is better. The F4 will also be on the 12.2" rotor. Finally I will compare that to the super common on here C6-Z 14" setup, as well as the common Baer 6S 14" setup.

F5
2.0" pistons
6.28 sq in piston area
12.2" rotor

F4
1.875" pistons
5.52" sq in piston area
12.2" rotor

C6-Z
1.299" pistons
3.98" sq in piston area
14.0" rotor

Baer 6S
1.625", 1.375", 1.125" pistons
4.55 sq in piston area
14.0" rotor

Now we know that the brakes must resist the 26325 in lbs of torque from the tires. We back apply the same torque equation from before, T = F * d except this time we know torque, t, we are solving for pad force, F, and our distance, d, will be the distance from the center of rotation to roughly the center of the pad. I will assume d = rotor diameter / 2 - 1.

F5 and F4 (same size rotor)
26325 = F * (12.2/2-1)
F = 5162 lbs

C6-Z and Baer (same size rotor)
26325 = F * (14/2-1)
F = 4388 lbs

Now I will assume all calipers are running the same compound pad. I will assume I high quality street pad with a coefficient of friction of 0.4. Now we will use the same Friction force calculation as before to find the force required by the pistons.

F5 and F4 (same size rotor)
Ff = Fn * mu
5162 = Fn * 0.4
Fn = 12905 lbs

C6-Z and Baer (same size rotor)
4388 = Fn * 0.4
Fn = 10970 lbs

As expected the C6-Z and Baer calipers only have to produce 85% of the force of the F4 and F5 since they run a bigger rotor.

Now lets figure out what fluid pressure is required to produce those forces. P = F / A where P is pressure, F is the force, and A is the cross sectional area (piston area).

F5
P = 12905 / 6.28 = 2055 psi

F4
P = 12905 / 5.52 = 2338 psi

C6-Z
P = 10970 / 3.98 = 2756 psi

Baer
P = 10970 / 4.55 = 2411 psi

Now this pressure is created by the master cylinder. So if I assume a common master cylinder size of 1.125" diameter which is an area of 0.99 in sq. Then we can back calculate the force on the master required in order to produce that pressure.
F = P * A.

F5
F = 2055 * 0.99 = 2034 lbs

F4
F = 2338 * 0.99 = 2315 lbs

C6-Z
F = 2756 * 0.99 = 2728 lbs

Baer
F = 2411 * 0.99 = 2387 lbs

Now lets assume power brakes with a vacuum booster with a gain of 4.0 (I think this is reasonable, but information is hard to find.). So the input force into the booster is:
Fin = Force / gain

F5
Fin = 2034 / 4 = 509 lbs

F4
Fin = 2315 / 4 = 579 lbs

C6-Z
Fin = 2756 / 4 = 689 lbs

Baer
Fin = 2387 / 4 = 597 lbs

Now lets assume a pedal ration of 6:1. So the input force on the pedal is:
Fin = Fout / gain

F5
Fin = 509 / 6 = 85 lbs

F4
Fin = 579 / 6 = 97 lbs

C6-Z
Fin = 689 / 6 = 115 lbs

Baer
Fin = 597 / 6 = 100 lbs

So what we get is expected. The caliper with the biggest pistons (by far) requires the least pressure on the pedal to lock up the brakes. Now, remember I dialed a bunch of conservatism into the equation. If I go with these more realistic assumptions instead:

Vehicle weight: 3600lbs
Tire normal force: 1260lbs = 84% of original
Tire coefficient of friction: 1.0 = 77% of original
Tire diameter: 26" = 96% of original

The results would look like, pedal force:

F5
Fin = 53 lbs

F4
Fin = 60 lbs

C6-Z
Fin = 71 lbs

Baer
Fin = 62 lbs

Great, so we found pedal force. So isn't lowest pedal force the best? Well like everything else, its a compromise. You don't want the pedal to be like an on off switch but you don't want it to be to hard to push either. This is the value of an informed customer. Do you own calculations and figure out what you are comfortable with. Sit in your car with a scale over the brake pedal. Push down until you want the brake to lock. Take note of the force and go from there.

The other compromise with pedal force is pedal travel. Do you like a long pedal or a short pedal? Pedal travel is factor of a number of things, everything already considered. But assuming same tires, same pads, same master cylinder, same vacuum booster, and same pedal ratio, then its merely a factor of piston area and rotor diameter. A larger piston diameter will give a longer pedal and a larger rotor will give a shorter pedal travel.

So lets compare the four kits here. I will compare them to my OEM '87 brakes. A very typical GM setup with 10.5" rotors and a single 2.5" piston. 4.91 in sq piston area. In all cases this stock setup will be considered the control, 100%.

Pedal Effort. For the same deceleration rate, determined by tire grip, what is the pedal effort.

% effort = Control piston area / piston area * Control rotor effective radius / rotor effective radius * 100

Stock
4.91/4.91 * (10.5/2-1)/(10.5/2-1) * 100 = 100%

F5
4.91/6.28 * (10.5/2-1)/(12.2/2-1) * 100 = 65%

F4
4.91/5.52 * (10.5/2-1)/(12.2/2-1) * 100 = 74%

C6-Z
4.91/3.98 * (10.5/2-1)/(14/2-1) * 100 = 88%

Baer
4.91/4.55 * (10.5/2-1)/(14/2-1) * 100 = 76%

Pedal travel. For the same deceleration rate, determined by tire grip, what is the padal travel.

% travel = piston area / control piston area * Control rotor effective radius / rotor effective radius * 100

Stock
4.91/4.91 * (10.5/2-1)/(10.5/2-1) * 100 = 100%

F5
6.28/4.91 * (10.5/2-1)/(12.2/2-1) * 100 = 107%

F4
5.52/4.91 * (10.5/2-1)/(12.2/2-1) * 100 = 94%

C6-Z
3.98/4.91 * (10.5/2-1)/(14/2-1) * 100 = 58%

Baer
4.55/4.91 * (10.5/2-1)/(14/2-1) * 100 = 66%

So there you have it. Do you like a long or short pedal? An informed customer can make an informed decision. Remember pedal travel and effort is all about BRAKE FEEL. All these kits will lock up the brakes NO PROBLEM.

Now I will say that all of these calculation ignores caliper flex. Or rather is assumes all caliper have the same flex. It is my opinion that compared to the mechanical and hydraulic effects, the cost of flex is very low. GMR will disagree. I would still like to see an actual measurement. GMR will tell you that the Brake Man caliper has much less flex than the others. In which case if they know that, where is the data? I will also point out that as seen in the early calculations, the force on the body of the Brake Man caliper is 20% higher for any particular deceleration rate. Flex is basically linearly proportional to force. So the brake man caliper is fighting flex even more than the other calipers due to the smaller rotor. Now the downside of the larger rotor is more rotational inertia, which means the suspension has to work harder to do its job.

To quote a stupid old Baz Luhrmann song: “Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it.” That goes for everyone on here.

Finally here is a table I created that I used to help me show brake options for my car. I didn’t end up with any of the four kits discussed here. The chart was made with all the assumptions we talked about earlier.

Right click – view image for larger

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/7842985490_dfe937b249_h-1.jpg

[Roadrage David]

JPgolf14 Thanks for puting up this sientific post. unfortunatly as you probely can see im dislectic and kinda word blind!. so most of it thussend make sens to me as i dont understand the tech side and nrs. my apolegy for that..
Having said that it thussend mean that i dont understand brakes and ore braking ore racing performanse.... i could(for my project Road force one) have choosen al ore the best brake systems europe and usa has to offer. Unfortunatly the calliper flex and drag and the heat coming from them big names and the ofthen brake pad wear and brake fade , in the high end racing scene im kinda involved in. made me choose diferend.
It Is kind of sirpirzingly common!! in the race scene how ofthen they have to deal with Brake problems.

the MASSIF size calliper dizigns with eather 4 ore 6 iven 8 pistons being used to me seems rediculess... till i finnaly understoot(kind of( the Brake man Brakes filosefy .
witch made sens to me.
im pretty sure that most of the highend brakes do there job AS GOOD at the ""start"", But where brake man brakes out performs the other brands is Durabilety quality, and very importend to , at least costs.
my frinds who use the massif AP 6 piston calipers in there GT race cars need to swap and change brape pads and discs EVERY race ore every 4 tot 6 hours depending on what euro track they race . and im talking about these babys here http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/brake_calipers/gt_range/6_piston-lmp1_and_fia_radi-cal%e2%84%a2-cp6160_and_cp6161.aspx
http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/brake_calipers/gt_range/4_piston-radi-cal%e2%84%a2-gt_rear-180mm_ctrs-cp6470.aspx
http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/brake_calipers/gt_range/4_piston-forged_radi-cal%e2%84%a2-gt_rear-cp6480.aspx

When your close and into the High end racing scene where they drive around with 200.000 to 500.000 euro/ usd cars and have a stable of 6 cars in one team ranging from Moslers ,, Ferarri,s,, Porshes,, Omega v8 stars ,, and pratt and miller corvettes and Galloway corvettes. it wil sirprize you how little these high end $$ team owners(and mecanics) actualy know what is out there and how they can improve overal performanse .. There is a compleet industry or workers mecanics parts suplyers around and in those race teams that make there ""living"" and feed there famelies of these high end $$ teams.

Belive me when i say that it is NOT in THERE intrest to speed up tegnolegy and ore use dureble parts for these cars to live and ore finish more then one race without braking douwn ore have lots of parts unessersary swapt out,. Because this will put the mecanics and the people who work on these cars and the industry around them out of bisenis... ore at least make less money.
Sometimes some companies ore individuals step up ore out of that shade and come up with there findings and ore products that wil make a diferense.
Brake man brakes IS one of those companies with a no nonsense products that thuse just that. a filosefy based on quality and durabilety( read there hidden cost of racing part on there site) . If you alow me and if the readers are intrested i can shed some light on how TO mutch MONEY is spend in one of those multy million top euro race teams .
and how many seconds they LEAVE un used on the tracks, but stil win and drive in the top of there GT1/2/3 classes with FIA apoved cars iven Le mans cars.....

[jpgolf14]

David,

Are you suggesting that with the Brake Man kit they will NOT swap pads every race. I find that hard to believe.

It appears the Brake man uses the following pads. Maybe GMR can confirm or deny?

F5
AP CP3714 D54
Pad Volume: 8.0 in^3

F4
Wilwood 7420
Pad Volume: 4.9 in^3

F3
Wilwood 7112
Pad Volume: 2.1 in^3

and if you compare those to the caliper you linked below.

AP CP6160
AP CP6210 D54
Pad Volume: 13.2 in^3

So you are telling me a pad with 65% MORE volume than the F5 pad isn't going to last as long? Sorry I just cannot follow that logic no matter how much difference in caliper flex.

John


JPgolf14 Thanks for puting up this sientific post. unfortunatly as you probely can see im dislectic and kinda word blind!. so most of it thussend make sens to me as i dont understand the tech side and nrs. my apolegy for that..
Having said that it thussend mean that i dont understand brakes and ore braking ore racing performanse.... i could(for my project Road force one) have choosen al ore the best brake systems europe and usa has to offer. Unfortunatly the calliper flex and drag and the heat coming from them big names and the ofthen brake pad wear and brake fade , in the high end racing scene im kinda involved in. made me choose diferend.
It Is kind of sirpirzingly common!! in the race scene how ofthen they have to deal with Brake problems.

the MASSIF size calliper dizigns with eather 4 ore 6 iven 8 pistons being used to me seems rediculess... till i finnaly understoot(kind of( the Brake man Brakes filosefy .
witch made sens to me.
im pretty sure that most of the highend brakes do there job AS GOOD at the ""start"", But where brake man brakes out performs the other brands is Durabilety quality, and very importend to , at least costs.
my frinds who use the massif AP 6 piston calipers in there GT race cars need to swap and change brape pads and discs EVERY race ore every 4 tot 6 hours depending on what euro track they race . and im talking about these babys here http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/brake_calipers/gt_range/6_piston-lmp1_and_fia_radi-cal%e2%84%a2-cp6160_and_cp6161.aspx
http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/brake_calipers/gt_range/4_piston-radi-cal%e2%84%a2-gt_rear-180mm_ctrs-cp6470.aspx
http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/brake_calipers/gt_range/4_piston-forged_radi-cal%e2%84%a2-gt_rear-cp6480.aspx

When your close and into the High end racing scene where they drive around with 200.000 to 500.000 euro/ usd cars and have a stable of 6 cars in one team ranging from Moslers ,, Ferarri,s,, Porshes,, Omega v8 stars ,, and pratt and miller corvettes and Galloway corvettes. it wil sirprize you how little these high end $$ team owners(and mecanics) actualy know what is out there and how they can improve overal performanse .. There is a compleet industry or workers mecanics parts suplyers around and in those race teams that make there ""living"" and feed there famelies of these high end $$ teams.

Belive me when i say that it is NOT in THERE intrest to speed up tegnolegy and ore use dureble parts for these cars to live and ore finish more then one race without braking douwn ore have lots of parts unessersary swapt out,. Because this will put the mecanics and the people who work on these cars and the industry around them out of bisenis... ore at least make less money.
Sometimes some companies ore individuals step up ore out of that shade and come up with there findings and ore products that wil make a diferense.
Brake man brakes IS one of those companies with a no nonsense products that thuse just that. a filosefy based on quality and durabilety( read there hidden cost of racing part on there site) . If you alow me and if the readers are intrested i can shed some light on how TO mutch MONEY is spend in one of those multy million top euro race teams .
and how many seconds they LEAVE un used on the tracks, but stil win and drive in the top of there GT1/2/3 classes with FIA apoved cars iven Le mans cars.....

[Roadrage David]

yes john they wil NOT change pads and rotors every race!!!. the logic may lay in the compound!?. AND the no DRAG and no caliper flex and less heat . witch makes the other brands go tru brake pads and rotors like crazy!!..
John with the F5 calipers and the ""Hurricane rotors""(1000usd a piece) http://www.thebrakeman.com/hurricane and the pads needed they can drive a 24 hour race!!.. again chek this video of NASA ch Ernesto rocco at 2.00 http://youtu.be/zpBPopHUe68
http://www.thebrakeman.com/compound4
here are some tings acsplained as wel .



The Cheapest Speed in the race car


PLEASE NOTE!
This article is copyrighted by The Brake Man, Inc. The information presented or any part hereof, may not be reproduced in any form without the express written consent of The Brake Man, Inc.

Innovative Brake Technology by The Brake Man, Inc., has a long and distinguished history of developing leading edge technology for the automotive and racing industry. Warren Gilliland, the President and CEO, has been designing advanced brake systems since 1967, far longer than any other American aftermarket company. Mr. Gilliland's focus and commitment to technological leadership have formed the core competencies at The Brake Man, Inc. From the early days at Hurst/Airheart in the late 60's, and throughout the 80's at JFZ Engineered Products, the key technologies that are foundational to The Brake Man, Inc. have been the source of setting the trends for advancement of the industry. The Brake Man is among the most knowledgeable sources of information for improving brake systems, while supplying high quality brake components, and most importantly, a reliable source of information on how to make the system produce the best results. 805-987-STOP (7867)



This article is copyrighted by The Brake Man, Inc. The information presented or any part hereof, may not be reproduced in any form without the express written consent of "The Brake Man, Inc."



The Cheapest Speed In The Racecar.



Regardless of what type of racing you do, the most pressing motivation involved in building a racecar is the quest for speed. Speed is the driving element we are all trying to achieve by the very act of even going racing. We all know that if we have the best car, we may not need to be the best driver to win, so, with that being said, who wants to sit in the worst race car on the track?



Since I've never met a racer that just wanted to go out and run around the back of the pack, I think it's safe to assume that in a "perfect world" we all want to run up front. There's just one little problem. In racing, just like in everything else we do in life, not all competitors are created with equal pocketbooks. This is where most of us find ourselves.



So what can we do to level the playing field? It's easy. Spend the money we have more wisely and draw attention from sponsors by becoming an over achiever with what we have. Sounds simple to do, but in the racing world, how is that accomplished? It usually isn't. As teams prepare their budgets for their race efforts, it is inevitable that the biggest portion of the budget ends up going into the motor. With the possible exception of drag racing, this is the first and biggest mistake you can make.









Quality components are important, but proper installation can dramatically affect performance. The manufacturer must be capable of assisting your efforts. This photo shows the proper way a clamp, caliper and rotor should be assembled on the rear. By placing the clamp inboard, there will be less axle deflection affecting rotor movement and it will also be easier to remove the rotor when necessary.


I have spent numerous hours with teams from virtually every form of racing from sprints and midgets to late model asphalt and dirt teams. In virtually all cases, the drivers, car owners and chief mechanics all had the same game plan. They purchase every other component, EXCEPT FOR THE ENGINE, with the utmost of care, seeking out the least expensive pieces they can buy. Then the remainder of the money is dumped into the best one or two motors they can buy.



Have you ever wondered how the old guy with the 10 year old chassis, second rate motor and open trailer seems to end up in the top ten every night while you seem to have just one little thing stop you from being there too? There are a few simple suggestions that will help you see major improvements in your finishes with very little effort.



First, remember the old adage, "In order to finish first, you first must finish". In other words, your racecar cannot be built from components that cannot take the punishment. If you build your car to be the lightest one on the track and then bolt on 200 pounds of lead to make minimum weight, you most likely have chosen components that will not take the abuse. Don't sacrifice durability for a few pounds of weight and then watch that components fail and knock you out of the race. In the late 80's and early 90's, many wheel manufacturer's had been talked into making their aluminum wheels from a thinner gage, resulting in disaster for many teams before they woke up and realized the need to finish was more important than the weight. They also quickly learned that the benefit of a pound lighter wheel did not result in enough improvement to offset the cost of replacing bent wheels every few race days or worse yet, getting knocked out of a race they were leading, by being unable to finish.



Second, take a look at where you get the most "bang" for your buck in improving the lap times. (If I remember correctly, this is what will result in your ability to get to the start finish line before the other guy). All kidding aside, my 38 years of working with race teams and building brakes has clearly proven what many engineers have been saying for years. THERE IS NO CHEAPER SPEED IN A RACE CAR THAN IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM!



Not only is that statement true, but another fact is that until you have the ability to slow the car in the shortest distance at the entry of the corner, with consistent, confident control, then you are wasting your money. All of your knowledge of the weight distribution, spring and shock rates, and every other piece of information in your little black book is also obsolete. Why? Because as you increase your deceleration rates from say, .8g to 1.0g, the car unloads far more weight to the front. This can be calculated by the simple formula, WT (Weight Transfer in pounds) =total vehicle weight in pounds times deceleration rate in g's, times the center of gravity height in inches, divided by the wheel base, in inches. This formula tells you how many pounds of weight are moving from the rear axle to the front, during deceleration. This formula shows how improvement in deceleration into the corner totally changes the spring, shock, suspension and tire pressure combinations for optimum performance.



Since all of these components must be readjusted for the new characteristics you will experience in the corner, the brakes justify being a priority item. As your ability to decelerate the car improves, so does your confidence and control. This means you are now entering the corner deeper, which means you are at a better angle during the transfer from the brake back to the throttle. Since you will apex out straighter, you will be back on the throttle sooner, thereby lengthening the straight portion of the track. But wait! Back to reality, the brakes chosen for your racecar were the cheapest available, so none of these good things are happening for your team!



All joking aside, I am amazed at the number of times I have been told by a racer that he would love to upgrade his brakes but "can't afford it". I'm going to let you in on a little secret; a quality set of brakes will improve your lap times more for an additional $1000 than you can get by spending $10,000 more on the motor! The tighter the budget you are on, the more important it is to spend your money wisely.



Every year, by our own industry count, 20% of the racers at the track are new. This means that 40% or almost ½ of all the racers at the track are just learning the ropes. Most immediate source of information is their fellow racers, which is the worst choice you can make.



You are trying to beat these guys, not just race with them. If you are looking at their car for inspiration as to what components to buy, again this is the wrong place to look. Your racecar should be built to accommodate you. You are unique. For example, as it relates to brakes, if you are 5'5" tall and weigh 140 pounds, do you really think that your fellow racer who is 6'2" tall and weighs 240 pounds is a good person to tell you what calipers, master cylinders and pedals will make you comfortable and capable behind the wheel? Believe me you will not be happy with the result. That's why you need to reflect on your own needs and rely on your own intelligence to seek out answers from knowledgeable people in the industry to help you select what will work best for YOU!



The racing industry, just like every industry, has manufacturers with great knowledge and technical expertise to support their component sales. Many do not. Some companies have manufactured a component by copying others in the industry and it shows when you call to ask a question.



Remember that you are not just buying parts, you are buying information. Be sure that you have access to quality knowledge to assist you in your product selection. A quality company considers the information and tech help they supply to be even more valuable than the parts they sell. Even top quality components misapplied, will return poor results. If you don't have access to information, you are asking for sub par results.



Selecting components for the right reason is also a major point to remember. You must have a clear understanding of what your car must handle in the way of abuse, night after night. If you are on a budget, believe me, it is even more important that you purchase the most durable components because the real cost of racing is not in the building of the car, it is in the maintenance and repair. A quality brake system will usually help you avoid a major "incident" within the next three nights of racing. Most damage usually results in a repair bill of more than $1000. That alone, would have paid for the upgrade.



Here's a little information that will surprise you. If you drive a sprint car or a late model, either dirt or asphalt, you will find that the entire racecar is "bound up", or dragging badly after the race. This is because the calipers are flexing and dragging the rotors. Did you know the drag is robbing serious horsepower? Did you know that just the rolling resistance of tires at 120 miles per hour robs 20 horsepower? What do you think the brakes are robbing?








This drawing shows a properly designed pedal. As you can see, since the beginning point of the arc of travel and the ending point form a straight line into the master cylinder, no frictional loss, premature bore wear or other conditions will interfere from proper operation. See the next illustration of what can happen if your design does not match the above criteria. Remember, good brakes begins with transmission of force from your leg.



Pedal Wrong-Clic on Pic for Detail

3rd ILLUSTRATION Improperly designed pedal

As you can see, this drawing differs from the correct illustration. As you can see, frictional binding and pressure loss can result. Make sure your pedal is not the cause of premature master cylinder wear, or loss of force.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Since the brakes are dragging, this dumps excessive heat in the rotor creating several additional problems. Higher rotor temperature results in premature pad wear. An additional 100 to 200 degrees can cause pads to wear out twice as fast as they would otherwise. The constant drag does not allow the weight to transfer as readily as it would if the drag were not present. This upsets the car balance and greatly reduces the momentum in the corner. It further results in slower acceleration coming off the corner. Although many companies advertise calipers that don't drag, very few really are capable of handling the pressure.



On many high speed tracks racers have found that limiting the amount of cooling air flow through the racecar, increases speed and down force, that why they try to tape off all the openings to qualify. In race trim this can be better accomplished with a brake system that has very little drag that generates minimal amounts of heat, there for needing less brake duct air- flow.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<



For those of you that are weight conscious, the brake drag requires you to run a heavier rotor than you might otherwise run because you are forced to deal with the extra heat. If you add a five-pound heavier rotor to all four corners of the car, you just added 20 extra pounds of the worst possible weight, rotating, unsprung weight. Either running too small a caliper or one that is not adequately designed to take the pressures required for your operation is causing all this. If you bought it because it was cheap, then you just set your racing efforts back a bunch.



If the components are not properly matched, you will realize it right away. Just ask yourself this question: Do you have problems finding a brake pad that will "bite" enough to suit your racing style? If you said yes, then you most likely have not properly sized the masters and the calipers to provide sufficient line pressure and clamping force. Because of this, you are asking for the brake pad to make up for all the other inadequacies in the system. This is similar to having a motor that does not have sufficient horsepower and the only way to get more is to put in a higher grade of fuel or nitrous. It will work for a while, but will shorten the life of the motor considerably. The same applies to the brake system. Asking the pad to do too much is the most obvious sign your brake system is not correct.



When it comes to purchasing a component, whether it is brakes or any other, you need to do your homework. DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ! Just because the article or ad says something, it may not be true. It requires YOU to do your research and find out what really will do the job. Remember you are unique. You may use more brake than everyone else. If so, shouldn't you have a better system on your car than the competition?




Plan your design-Clic on Pic for Detail
Rotating unsprung weight is far more important than unsprung weight. The weight of your caliper should never be your consideration. Installing a zero drag caliper will remove the equivalent of better than 40 horsepower of drag, also allowing you the opportunity to remove unsprung weight in the rotor since it now does not have to work constantly.

Why is this so hard to do in racing? Well, think about it. If you have a product that gives you a definite edge, do you run to the driver that is parked next to you to share the information? Heck no! He probably won't do the same for you either. This means that the best components are probably not the ones that are most commonly being run by every one. Also, it is a natural tendency for a new team to look around the pits and see what is being run by most of the other teams. Big mistake! There is no "edge" in running exactly what your competitor runs. It can only get you potentially even with them, never better.
It is also interesting to note how often a team will break a component, knocking them out of a race, costing them serious prize money for the evening, but go out and bolt on a new component identical to the one they took off.the one that could not handle the load! The money you just lost could have purchased better brakes for all four wheels!



Have you noticed that although all teams want to finish first, most teams don't want to be first to install a new product? But if the new component is a true advantage, the only drivers to benefit are the first to put it on. After that, the rest of the field is just catching back up. If you are not looking for the new, leading edge components, you are probably relegated forever to playing "catch up".



In the past few months, I have seen a big change in the interest of the racer's attempt to find improvement for the racecar. Now that some teams have shown the importance of the brakes in corner entry, brakes are beginning to get the attention they rightfully deserve. "Performance" is the key word here. You have to learn to trust your own judgment. If you sit down and prepare a list of questions and concerns you have about how your car is presently working, and then call and discuss your concerns with three or four potential sources for parts, you will realize it will become clearly evident which components you want to buy.



It is important to remember to prepare properly for that discussion. The more you know about your car, your driving style and the race tracks you normally run, the better the technical people can help. Don't be afraid to ask the qualifications of the person you have on the phone. Your source of information is critical to getting correct input. If they don't seem to understand you, they probably don't. Your own comfort level is a good gage as to whether the information sounds right.



Racers have a tendency to get sidetracked when it comes to the brake system. Frequently, the question comes up, "which rotor do I need to stop my car"? The answer is, the rotor does not stop your car, the caliper does. Clamping force comes from the caliper while the rotor only supplies a "lever" to input the force to the wheel for transfer to the ground. Really, the tire stops the car, but the caliper provides the force to transmit the kinetic energy to the rotor.



A QUALITY CALIPER IS THE KEY COMPONENT AROUND WHICH TO BUILD CAR CONTROL!



The statement above says a great deal about what allows a driver to push the car they are driving to the limits of its capabilities. If you ask them, they will tell you that the most important characteristic above all others is confidence in the capability of the car. Second is predictability. This is what you strive for when you build the car.



It is a well-known fact that the most important passing zone and confidence zone just happen to be in the same place, the entry to a turn. The driver that has the most confidence in their machine will be able to stay on the throttle just a little longer. This confidence is what allows that driver to put the nose of the racecar under the car in front and take the position. Without that confidence, the driver can't move forward on the track. In order to rely on that control lap after lap, the car must be predictable. After all, if the brakes quit working half way through the race, you are not going to be able to continue your charge to the front. If the pedal gets spongy or changes its feel during the race, this is the "kiss of death" to a racer. The driver's first obligation is to not overdrive the car and ruin it either by damaging the components or running into a wall or fellow competitor. If you had an entire team depending on you to bring home the equipment in one piece, how hard would you push it?



Although virtually every racer reading this article would agree with the previous paragraph, this is not even in their thoughts when they built the car. The biggest part of my working with potential buyers is to get them to refocus on what their real desire for the brake system should be. In most cases, their initial focus is either on weight or cost. Since the real focus should be on performance, (just like every other system on the race car), the usual result is a second rate system.



Here's something to think about. Motors usually weigh well over 500 pounds. Since most racers are looking for more and more power, weight is not an issue. In fact, if a motor with 100 more horses weighed another 50 pounds, they would bolt it in the car in a minute!



The brakes, however, weigh about 20-30 pounds per wheel. They must not only undo all the motion created by the motor, they sometimes must do it while the driver still has the accelerator pressed to the floor! Think carefully about this! The racecar must be capable of stopping in a shorter distance than it takes to accelerate it. In other words the zero to 100 mph time will be greater than the 100 mph to zero time. If your zero to 100 mph is 8 seconds and your 100 to zero is 4 seconds your brake system is dissipating all of the trust energy your engine produced in half the time! How can you then approach your brake purchases with the idea to worry about an extra pound in the caliper?








Fourth Insert

Pedal ratio is simple to calculate. As shown in this drawing, locate the pivot point. The dimension from the pivot point to the center of the pedal is the "A" dimension. The dimension from the pivot point to the master cylinder connection point is the "B" dimension. Simply divide "A" by "B" and the answer is your pedal ratio. (Example: B=2", A=12", 12 divided by 2 = 6, there pedal ratio is 6/1)


If the throttle can't be depressed, then the motor is useless. If your car does not stop RELIABLY now, then trying to lighten your existing brake setup is not where your focus should be. Every component must carry its load. Weight is not the important factor in choosing a brake system. Don't let anyone tell you it is.



What is each component supposed to do? Well, let's review.



The purpose of the pedal is to amplify the input forces from your foot (See illustration 5). The formula for this is; Pedal ratio= pivot to center of pedal divided by pivot to center of MC pushrod clevis., For example, distance from pivot to center of pedal, 12", distance from pivot to center of MC pushrod clevis, 2", therefore 12 divided by 2 equals 6/1 pedal ratio. It works in conjunction with the master cylinder to supply the ideal combination of fluid volume and line pressure to the components that will actually do the work. The direction of force is also critical to transmit that force to the master cylinder (See illustrations 3). As the pedal travels through the arc, the direction of force must be directly into the master. If not, premature wear will result.










Sixth Insert



There is a great deal of speed improvements yet to be incorporated in most race cars from the brake system. Because of the fact that deceleration rates are actually greater than the acceleration rates, brake improvements increase speed dramatically. We have made incredible improvements in caliper strength unmatched by any company in the industry, which, in turn, has helped drivers become more consistent and comfortable. This, in turn, allows the driver to develop a better rhythm, which results in more consistent lap times throughout the entire race.


The brake lines deliver the pressure to the calipers and the efficiency is dependent upon minimizing the volume loss from "ballooning" under pressure. The more effectively you plumb the racecar with solid line and short, quality braided hoses, the better.



Your choice of brake fluid is important as well. Quality brake fluid does not assimilate moisture as rapidly as others and has better compressive characteristics. Changing to a quality fluid alone can improve pedal feel significantly.



The caliper supplies the clamping force. If the caliper is well designed, it will have minimal deflection, which will use a lesser volume of fluid, which in turn, will allow a wider choice of master cylinder sizes to accommodate driver comfort. The larger the pistons, the greater the clamping force. The number of pistons does not increase clamping force but actually reduces it. This component is potentially the most important component in the brake system.



The rotor has two important functions. The diameter of the rotor acts as a lever for the caliper. The larger the diameter, the greater the force generated. The mass and design of the rotor determine the ability to dissipate the heat created from the friction between the pad and rotor. Not all rotors are created equal. Consulting a true expert, not just a salesman, can have a great influence in obtaining the best choice here.



Although a brake system has other components, such as residual valves and proportioning valves potentially required, the last key component is the brake pad. This component can indicate a great deal about your system. As we stated earlier, if you are constantly looking for the pad with the highest coefficient of friction, then you probably don't have the correct components on the car. If you have excessive pad wear or fade is a recurring problem, then your system is most likely in need of review.



Basic laws of physics rule the brake system like every other system on the racecar. Opinions do not belong in a science. Stay away from opinions. Look for reliable, knowledgeable sources. If you are a racer on a serious budget, with a burning desire to be as competitive as possible, here is an opportunity to get maximum improvements in performance for minimal dollars. Use your brain, instead of your pocketbook to move you to the front of the pack.

[jpgolf14]

yes john they wil NOT change pads and rotors every race!!!. the logic may lay in the compound!?. AND the no DRAG and no caliper flex and less heat . witch makes the other brands go tru brake pads and rotors like crazy!!..
John with the F5 calipers and the ""Hurricane rotors""(1000usd a piece) http://www.thebrakeman.com/hurricane and the pads needed they can drive a 24 hour race!!.. again chek this video of NASA ch Ernesto rocco at 2.00 http://youtu.be/zpBPopHUe68
http://www.thebrakeman.com/compound4
here are some tings acsplained as wel .

David,

It is clear you have already made up your mind. In that case why did you ask me to explain what I meant? I wasted 1hr of my life typing that up. Thanks.

This is the classic brake man argument.

NO DRAG - there is no such thing as no drag. It is a physical impossibility. Its purely marketing.

No FLEX - this is no such thing. All materials act like rubber bands, its just a question of how stiff the rubber band is. I could stand on an I-beam designed to carry 100,000lbs and it would flex just with my weight on it. Again this is typical marketing speak.

I watched the video, he never mentioned how often he changes pads. Finally, did you notice the huge Brake Man banner and stickers. Its always a good idea to praise your sponsors. Personally, I don't trust people who sell or are sponsored, as they have other motives. That one is your call though.

Finally, I am a big fan of the hurricane rotor. The theory is solid on that one. As expected they are expensive, but not surprising as I'm sure they are very labor/machine intensive.

[Roadrage David]

JPgolf14 i askt because im bad with nrs and as i said im kinda word blind my eyes get blury.. And yes i made up mij mind when i whent tru ""all"" the brake brands and saw first hand how the so called super brakes in the high end FIA GT classes in europe are way over priced and do NOT perform in a matter they are supost to do.
Also you find me 1 brake manufacturor that discribe and let out and give so mutch info about brakes as Brake man Brakes thuse!!!... putting info on a site is one thing backing it up is another, and thats what they do .
You know the fraze"" you can sell Bull **** only for so long"" .... you never seemt to be currius about my former post about the racing teams industrie and costs and bisenis that come along with high end racing teams.
and the lack of knolige around those teams(owners) to do it the right way. hens i im so in the brake man,s filosefy ....
here is another one without nrs and tables that wil ecsplain stuff for guys like myself

SPRINT CARS FINDING NEW SPEED IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM

Everybody already knows the best way to build the fastest sprint car. It’s simple. Buy the lightest weight chassis you
can find, put the biggest, baddest motor in it, buy titanium till the budget can’t handle it, and drill holes in everything
including the center out of bolts to get every last ounce out. Right? Not necessarily.
If you have an unlimited budget, this might be a good start, but it is far from the best way, and very far from fact. This
year at the Performance Racing Industry trade show, it was apparent that racers realize they can no longer afford to put
their entire racing budget into the motor. They are coming to realize that to be successful, they must use their budgets
wisely to make the most of what they spend. They also realize that an expensive motor is no good if you can’t keep your
foot on the throttle.
If you are like most teams and don’t have an unlimited budget, then it is even more important that you focus on improving
your lap times as much as possible with what you do have to spend. Believe it or not, the greatest lap times
improvement is NOT in the motor. Until your chassis and brakes are as good as they can be, pouring more money into
more horsepower will not improve the lap times nearly as much.
To prove this point, we talked to several drivers’ this year that entered races with motors far smaller than their
competition. Because they had concentrated on the other key aspects of the car, they found themselves to be highly
competitive while being “out horse powered” by as much as 100 BHP! Why is this possible?
Just as with motor development, improvements in other components on the racecar are improving the ability of the car to
get around the racetrack with greater speed and efficiency. Unfortunately, to a great extent, the sprint car builders and
owners have been so focused on merely decreasing weight that they have overlooked several new developments.
These new developments could have improved the car far more than 10 times the same amount of money spent on the
motor.
It never ceases to amaze me that a driver or crew chief would walk into our booth at the show, pick up our caliper, and,
using his arm like a scale, determine that it would never find it’s way onto his race car. Making an immediate
determination about the brake based on how much it weighed, the individual lost the opportunity to learn about the incredible
advantage he/she could get from the proper components and setup.
I find this interesting in that anyone familiar with racing knows this is an evolving sport. Every year, new products or methods find their
way into the established, accepted ways the cars are built. I do not know of a single racer that would feel they could show up with the
most advanced sprint car from the 1988 season, and expect to win even a single race. Yet most teams make little or no effort to
explore the marketplace in search of the next item that could help them make their car faster or handle better. How much research are
you doing?
Why is it that less than 5% of all people involved in motorsports seem to be the individuals making all of the advances. It’s simple.
They look. They are not afraid to check into new products, listen to the “sales pitch”, ask intelligent questions based on their own
experience, and then make changes. This is why the same teams seem to constantly run up front. They are never content to rest on
their laurels. They know the other teams will be trying to catch them and they must find a way to constantly improve or be caught. You
have the power to determine how much higher you finish.
Yes, it’s true that for years, the only truly important item to all sprint car people was “the weight”. Teams would spend massive
amounts of money in search of ounces. Well, this may come as a shock, but if you focus your attention on building the lightest weight
sprint car, and this is your only focus, you lose. To run up front, the only true motivation during the building cycle should be the clock.
What parts need to go on the car to make it travel around the racetrack the fastest, and more importantly, the most consistently. If you
have the fastest racecar for one lap of qualifying, but your car can’t handle 50 laps, you lose. If your car handles well for 5 laps and
then becomes uncontrollable, you lose.
A racecar that is a consistent winner has several characteristics. First, it must be durable. If your sprint car is not durable, the DNF’s,
(Did Not Finsh), will keep you from ever being successful. Second, the racecar must have great handling characteristics. If the driver
cannot control the car, he has to work harder and is constantly distracted from concentrating on the driving aspect. Third, the vehicle
must be consistent. If during the course of the race, the handling characteristics are dramatically altered, it is much more difficult to
establish a rhythm that is so important to successful drivers. Obviously, small changes can’t be avoided such as tire pressure and
changing track conditions, but you don’t need to add to the driver’s challenges by rapidly deteriorating vehicle dynamics.
For example, in the late eighties and early nineties, racers were on a light wheel kick. To such an extent that several wheel
manufacturers made wheels that were only really good for a one lap qualifying session. The resultant failures were so dramatic that
finally the buying public realized the cost and resultant loss from failures did not make it worthwhile. Another example was that in the
early nineties, in the interest of weight, racers were drilling so many holes in the aluminum torsion bar arms, the cars were actually
slowing down because the aluminum arm could no longer bend the steel torsion bar without deflecting. This deflection resulted in
suspension and handling problems that far outweighed the advantage of the few ounces saved in the arms. This really caused a big
problem, because for some time, racers’ blamed the torsion bars for the problem and were throwing away perfectly good bars.
There are many more examples, and I’m sure you have already thought of a few of your own, but hopefully, you understand that the
above examples illustrate the point of “the law of diminishing returns”. Basically, what this means is that the weight you removed just
hurt your car more than helped, so it should be put back on. In other words, you need to take a hard look at your decision making
process for how you choose the components that will go on your racecar.
Which leads us as to why I wrote this article. With respect to brakes, we have been able to prove that there is more competitive
advantage to be gained in the brake system than in any other portion of the car. While engines have been exploited for many years,
and shocks and suspension have made major advances recently, the brake system on most sprint cars is woefully inadequate and out
of date.
Much of the reason for this is again, the focus on weight. In an engine, we are taking heat and turning it into energy. A brake system
does just the opposite, taking energy and turning it into heat. Why is it that a racer has no problem loading an engine weighing 500
pounds of sprung weight, (the worse kind), into the sprint car, but is unhappy when the brake system, both front and rear may total 20
pounds of unsprung weight? Also, consider the fact that the 20 pound brake system must reverse all the momentum produced by the
500 pound motor and fight the motor while doing it! If 5 more pounds of brakes will improve the entire handling characteristics of the
sprint car and improve lap times by 3-4 tenths of a second, why do they remain so incapable of making the decision to refocus their
true goal to make the racecar better? Because they have been led to believe that the weight is the most critical factor, one that is really
not true, but is impossible to get out of their heads.
To illustrate that point, several racers have told me that they have NEVER had a reliable brake system on their car. They have never
felt safe or in control. Why, because they did not know the car could be made to stop safely. To make matters worse, they were still
trying to remove more weight from the brakes, while at the same time, complaining they had no brakes! Their only defense was that
“All sprint cars have the same problem”, which, by the way, is another untrue statement. We can prove it.
For the most part, much of this has to do with perception. Because the sprint car usually does not weigh more than 1300-1400
pounds, many racers feel it should not take that much to stop it. The truth is that a sprint car has some very unusual stopping
problems. First, a sprint car is always under load from the motor, due to the fact it has no neutral. Second, although it has a front
brake, that brake is really only for turning. The entire responsibility for truly stopping the car falls on the inboard rear brake assembly
alone. This means one caliper dumping all the heat to stop the car into one rotor, mounted in the worst “dead air” spot on the car,
which is behind the driver’s seat.
Combine this with the fact that racers are willing to compromise stopping ability for a few more ounces of weight reduction and it
becomes clear why very few cars are able to “stall the motor”, any time they want. Notice that I said very few. That means that some
cars truly can. Why is this? Because they researched and learned what it takes to put together a good system.
Almost every sprint car driver will tell you that the position of the brake pedal in the car is not where he would like it to be, rather it is
adjusted way out behind his leg in an uncomfortable position to push. Why? Because since the brakes will go bad during the race and
the pedal will drop, he needs the space between the firewall to have even a fighting chance of having brakes at the end of the race. Do
you think a driver is fastest while trying to drive while he is uncomfortable? Absolutely not.
Next, if the calipers chosen are too small or too weak to handle the job, the flex in the caliper will drag, which robs horsepower down
the straightaway. It also binds the chassis in the corner and further robs throttle response off the corner. In fact, on several cars we
have set up, the throttle response, combined with how much deeper the car can go into the corner, means that gear changes have
been necessary due to the increased rpm’s. Since the apex angle is different, the car exits the corner straighter, allowing the driver to
get on the throttle sooner. Combined with deeper corner entry, this has effect of making the straightaway longer. This is why watching
your gearing is so important when you improve your brake system.
Based upon “the law of diminishing returns”, does this really sound like a smart trade off? Not really, because even those of you who
think that it does, forget that if the brakes are dragging, you are forced to carry a heavier rotor to dissipate the heat. Since rotating
unsprung weight is more important than unsprung weight, you are using a heavier rotor than you need to compensate for the too small;
too weak caliper you picked.
Even little things you take for granted can get you in trouble. For instance, at least half of all the sprint racers I’ve talked to, still use “off
the shelf” brake fluid. Quality brake fluid is the first line of defense and if you use the cheap stuff, expect your brakes to be gone first.
Quality fluid does not need to be expensive; you just need to go research from reliable sources to find one that will provide the
protection, yet not cost a fortune. The two most important factors are, compressibility, (not all fluids are created equal), and moisture
absorption rates, (also vary greatly from fluid to fluid). That’s why we have technical information always available to you.
Another “little” thing is the choice of brake lines. Using unprotected Teflon line is foolish and leads to low, spongy pedals. It can also
result in total brake failure, as it is prone to serious damage. Use your head, this is no place to cut a cost corner. Steel braided lines
also differ. Don’t just go for the cheapest.
What about the right rear brake setup many teams use? Is this really a good idea? Not really. First, on most chassis, a right rear
brake will cause the birdcage to “cam”. This will make the rear of the car want to come around rather violently. This is OK if you only
run the bottom, but is a disaster if you want to run the top. You will not be able to hold the car on the cushion if you have a right rear.
Also, if weight were really a concern, why would you want a right rear caliper, rotor, pads and bracket, when a capable system is
available and can unbind the chassis without it?
A quality caliper is really the key to a great brake system. Not all calipers are created equal. Some are far stronger than others are,
just as $30,000 motors more than likely have more horsepower than $15,000 motors. The choice is yours. Brake drag and excessive
heat, coupled with an uncontrollable racecar, or a few bucks more to make major improvements in the money you pick up at the pay
window after the race. (Read the article on “The Hidden Cost of Racing”.) By the way, our tests have proven that spending $500 more
on the brakes gains you as much lap time improvement as spending over $10,000 on the motor. Think what this means to your
budget!
Rotors are another big factor, but not as you might think. The rotor acts as a lever for the caliper to input torque, as a friction surface
for the pad, and a way for the heat from the brake to be dissipated. BRAKE PADS DON’T WORK AS WELL ON TITANIUM. The only
way to get a pad to “bite” titanium is by coating the titanium. Unfortunately, the coating wears off rapidly and changes the torque while
it does so. If you have been reading this article carefully, you already know that we are looking for consistency for the driver, and this
isn’t it. The Revolution steel rotor provides a great combination of low weight, good surface for pad bite, ability to tolerate high
temperatures and a good ability to dissipate heat. There is a reason why some parts work far better than others. Removing that last
pound in rotating weight often costs you more than its worth. Remember “the law of diminishing returns”.
While quality, strong calipers are very important, the installation and assembly is critical too.
For instance, a residual valve is a key component on a sprint car for two reasons. First, the use of ultra lightweight axles is becoming
more prevalent, and, just like wheels, is now overdone. The axle is deflecting causing the rotor to bang into the caliper and pad,
causing the pad to want to eject and the piston to be pushed back into the housing. Also, a rough, rutted racetrack also causes
vibration and rotor knockback that can cause a “deep pedal”. A residual valve will help stop this. Yes, I know it does not work with
some weaker calipers, but remember, we are talking about building a sound, quality brake system where everything works as it should.
If the residual valve creates drag, you either have the wrong valve, (never use a 10 pound valve), or the caliper is too weak for the job.
The routing of the plumbing is critical too. You can create a nightmare for bleeding your system by improperly routing brake lines.
Never make any sharp up and then down turns. Fluid must move smoothly forcing the air in front of it to the calipers for removal. Fluid
will move up the line and then roll under the air bubble in a sharp loop, leaving the air trapped in the line. If your braided line has an up
and down loop, pull it over horizontally during bleeding to help the air move to the caliper. Make sure the routing is proper on your car.
Even the pedals on some sprint cars are still not correct. The master cylinder pushrod must be pushed directly into the
piston. If it is tilted at an angle, this will produce a loss of force and will prematurely wear out the master cylinder. This is
also a place to remember that the master cylinder is also important to the pedal travel. Quality masters live longer and
produce better results. Also, don’t assume that a 1” bore master is automatically right for you. For example, our system
almost never uses a 1” master cylinder because you do not need that much fluid movement, so we are able to make the
driver more comfortable by using a smaller size.
Lastly, brake pads need to provide a consistent torque over the temperature range. If you use a pad that changes with
temperature remember that your front rotor temperature and rear rotor temperature is seldom the same. As you input heat,
changing the temperature to the pad, “bite” will change affecting the balance. We make a variety of different pad
compounds with different torque values. They are perfect for fine tuning the balance of the car. For example, if your left
front caliper is pulling too hard or not hard enough, changing to a more aggressive or less aggressive compound will help
you fine tune to your driving style. Since the pads don’t change with temperature, mixing is acceptable. (Don’t forget our
goal of consistency). If you don’t know about your pads, then find a truly knowledgeable source and ask.
Just be aware that until you can drive your sprint car the entire race without ever tapping the pedal down the straightaway,
and never have your pedal change position during the race, you don’t have a safe brake system providing confidence and
control. The most capable driver on the track will be the one with the most confidence in his car and the most focus on
driving. Being distracted with brake loss, inconsistent pedal height or rolling out of the throttle because the car is giving up,
will stop you from being competitive at the end of the race, which, by the way, is when races are won.
To be truly competitive, you must work with what you have and stay focused on the goal to put the most competitive,
durable, great handling car on the track, that you possibly can. Budget and weight, while being important are not the goal.
If you want to win, you want to have a car that can get you there. In case you hadn’t noticed, in this article, we addressed
EVERY major brake complaint sprint car teams have, and how to fix it. Your answers are here. A good brake system can
help you finish an average of up to 5 spots higher every race. Would this have made you a champion?
THE BRAKE MAN, INC.

[jpgolf14]

JPgolf14 i askt because im bad with nrs and as i said im kinda word blind my eyes get blury.. And yes i made up mij mind when i whent tru ""all"" the brake brands and saw first hand how the so called super brakes in the high end FIA GT classes in europe are way over priced and do NOT perform in a matter they are supost to do.
Also you find me 1 brake manufacturor that discribe and let out and give so mutch info about brakes as Brake man Brakes thuse!!!... putting info on a site is one thing backing it up is another, and thats what they do .
You know the fraze"" you can sell Bull **** only for so long"" .... you never seemt to be currius about my former post about the racing teams industrie and costs and bisenis that come along with high end racing teams.
and the lack of knolige around those teams(owners) to do it the right way. hens i im so in the brake man,s filosefy ....
here is another one without nrs and tables that wil ecsplain stuff for guys like myself


Just because you say you aren't good with numbers doesn't mean you don't need them to explain how a brake system works. Brakes don't work on hopes and dreams.

Info from other brake manufacturers. You probably won't like these as they have lots of formulas and charts.

Stop Tech
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers

Centric
http://www.centricparts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&Itemid=212

Wilwood
http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechCenterGuide.aspx
http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/PdfIndex.aspx
http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/PdfFlyer.aspx
http://www.wilwood.com/Video/VideoHowTo.aspx
http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/HowToStories.aspx

PBR
http://www.pbrperformance.com.au/qanda.htm

I don't understand what info Brake Man is providing. Most of it is along the lines of, these are the best brakes in the world, just believe me.

I still stand by my opinion that that pistons on the F5 are to large. Personally I would not want a pedal longer than the stock pedal and 50% of the pressure. Great a long soft pedal. I prefer the smaller pistons that provide a shorter firmer pedal.

Personally I think Wilwood does the best job at providing information on their kits. They are all to happy to share every detail.

John

[HarleyR]

If these things are so awesome why arent they seen being used in the top 3 divisions of NASCAR?

[Jay@GMR]

The key to the Brake Man components is the reduction of caliper flex at non-ambient temperatures. With a multi-forge process and very specific material selection the caliper halves are literally machined / designed around the optimal grain structure that the forge creates. Thus creating caliper halves with the least amount of flex per weight. Another generic key to flex reduction is that Warren never uses more then 4 pistons, keeping the caliper bolts/ internal bridges at an optimal distance from each other and piston center-line. To top it off, he uses a patented bridge system that is made from a very specific treated steel. When other calipers drastically fatigue / flex when approaching 400deg the Brake MAn caliper actually gets stronger as it approaches 400deg, then even in excess of 400 its deflection rate increase is actually exponentially less then traditional aluminum body monoblocs.
Jason


Now the word strength gets thrown around a lot. I am assuming you are referring to stiffness, since that the important measurement for a caliper. If true you should be able to easily make billions selling that material to darn near every industry. Are you SURE his material GAINS STIFFNESS with heat? That is basically impossible. I will also point out that stiffness is basically a "family" property. All aluminums have about the same stiffness and all structural steels have about the same stiffness. In addition the slope of stiffness to temperature is about the same for all metals. So they all lose stiffness at about the same rate.
Your assumption that we are referring to stiffness is correct. And yes we are "SURE" that The Brake Man's caliper/bridge/material gains stiffness all the way up to 400F, in fact Steel gains 25 to 32 percent in strength when it peaks at about 400 degrees F . Remember, one of TBM's keys to caliper stiffness IS this steel bridge and this STEEL material DOES gain MUCH stiffness despite your comment that that is impossible. So being that these steel bridges are key to the stiffness of TBM caliper, and we all agree that wether it is a few bolts as Wilwood uses or bolts AND bridges as TBM uses, it is obvious that the useage of BOTH bolts AND bridges is clearly stiffer than the use of bolts only. If you read through your supplied links close enough.... try your STOP TECH link....scroll down to MONO vs 2 piece and read, they to will correct your above statement that it is impossible that steel gains stiffness with increased temps. You are wrong. Lets not mislead the readers. Now some have simply asked how these calipers are better/stiffer and we have answered with fact AND common sense, folks like you feel you need to challenge everything even when the proof has been laid out in front of you. Let it rest, TBM caliper is a STIFF caliper that has many benefits (which have been listed earlier) and will be seen by those that venture outside the trendy "loop", so if you prefer Wilwood.... so be it.
[QUOTE=jpgolf14;930849]


This is a prime example for all who follow these threads to read with a grain of salt and when in doubt.... call the professionals.

[Jay@GMR]

Just ordered the f3 calipers front and rear!!

Great service and advise from Cory.

Went by Roadrage and looks perfect!!

Let's all remember the original posters thread title........ "EXPERIENCE with The Brake Man Tornado Caliper"

I dont remember the few that have consumed this thread ever mentioning having any first hand experience with The Brake Man?

Looks like the original poster did the right thing and called TBM himself for the most accurate info and chose TBM calipers.

Congradulations on your caliper purchase 65-fastback! :cool:

[jpgolf14]

Your assumption that we are referring to stiffness is correct. And yes we are "SURE" that The Brake Man's caliper/bridge/material gains stiffness all the way up to 400F, in fact Steel gains 25 to 32 percent in strength when it peaks at about 400 degrees F . Remember, one of TBM's keys to caliper stiffness IS this steel bridge and this STEEL material DOES gain MUCH stiffness despite your comment that that is impossible. So being that these steel bridges are key to the stiffness of TBM caliper, and we all agree that wether it is a few bolts as Wilwood uses or bolts AND bridges as TBM uses, it is obvious that the useage of BOTH bolts AND bridges is clearly stiffer than the use of bolts only. If you read through your supplied links close enough.... try your STOP TECH link....scroll down to MONO vs 2 piece and read, they to will correct your above statement that it is impossible that steel gains stiffness with increased temps. You are wrong. Lets not mislead the readers. Now some have simply asked how these calipers are better/stiffer and we have answered with fact AND common sense, folks like you feel you need to challenge everything even when the proof has been laid out in front of you. Let it rest, TBM caliper is a STIFF caliper that has many benefits (which have been listed earlier) and will be seen by those that venture outside the trendy "loop", so if you prefer Wilwood.... so be it.
[QUOTE=jpgolf14;930849]


This is a prime example for all who follow these threads to read with a grain of salt and when in doubt.... call the professionals.

Hey Jay,

I read that link. I still don't see where they say steel gains stiffness with temperature? All I see is that it gains strength. Which I agree with, and as Stop Tech points out, calipers are designed for stiffness not strength. So the strength is basically irrelevant.

I still stand by the fact that steel (or any other metal) does not gain stiffness with temperature. He is a chart. I can't validate the accurateness of the chart, but it is in line with what I have learned and use in industry.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/metalmoduluselasticity-1.png

By the way, I am actually a huge fan of two piece calipers, I do agree that they should be stiffer with the same design effort (cost). After all, steel is 3x as stiff as aluminum.

I actually don't prefer Wilwood, or any brand for that matter. I merely pointed out that I feel they provide the consumer with the most detailed design specifications. Which I really appreciate.

And, Brake Man has a strong resume and I suspect he knows what he is doing. The problem I have is the following marketing claims:

Zero Flex Calipers: physically impossible

Zero Drag pistons: physically impossible

up to 60hp gain with his brakes: In my opinion with the huge push toward fuel efficiency, I feel the auto industry would have caught on by now, if they were dragging around an extra 60hp in drag

Your final statement is what I have been saying all along. Do your own homework and be an educated consumer. That means don't believe some clown on the internet (me) and don't believe people who are trying to sell a product.

Finally, I looked at the chart again that you guys posted before. Do you know why it took 33 minutes to complete 8 stops? Seems like the test would have been more relevant if they followed what a car would see on a race track. Something like slowdown every 10-15 seconds. Maybe I will email Tex and see what the thought process is. I'm curious.

So I did a search on Youtube and found this neat little video from Raybestos. They seems to test based on actual brake intervals for oval tracks. Its a cool video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3izCsazV0rk

John

[The GMR]

Brake man and myself never said anything about zero flex calipers, just a stiffer caliper at temp.

The incredibly small amount of piston drag is so close to zero that i completely understand why brake man uses the term"zero drag" for his product.
Jason.

[jpgolf14]

Brake man and myself never said anything about zero flex calipers, just a stiffer caliper at temp.

The incredibly small amount of piston drag is so close to zero that i completely understand why brake man uses the term"zero drag" for his product.
Jason.

Ah, must have been someone else who said that, hard to keep track. Sorry about that. I can't stand when someone misquotes me, I'm sure you feel the same.

John

[ace_xp2]

Wow, just found these, looks like Brembo isn't big on patents:
63801
That's a steel c sectioned caliper, curiously relegated to stopping some srt models.
You'd think they'd be using that fancy tech on every caliper they could make.

[Jay@GMR]

Wow, just found these, looks like Brembo isn't big on patents:
63801
That's a steel c sectioned caliper, curiously relegated to stopping some srt models.
You'd think they'd be using that fancy tech on every caliper they could make.

Wow, great foot work ace. Certainly is a bridge type design (not that we ever said that they do not exist, and not to say that some will not tip toe around patents), but clearly is lacking in structure compared to what The Brake Man has done with his specific design/material. If BREMBO was trying to duplicate TBM's design exactly, they failed IMO.

With that being said:

Any info you would like to add from first hand experience with The Brake Man calipers as the original poster had asked for?


63810

Again, congradulations 65-fastback as you have purchased one STIFF caliper that will last a long time!

[jpgolf14]

Wow, great foot work ace. Certainly is a bridge type design (not that we ever said that they do not exist, and not to say that some will not tip toe around patents), but clearly is lacking in structure compared to what The Brake Man has done with his specific design/material. If BREMBO was trying to duplicate TBM's design exactly, they failed IMO.

With that being said:

Any info you would like to add from first hand experience with The Brake Man calipers as the original poster had asked for?



Again, congradulations 65-fastback as you have purchased one STIFF caliper that will last a long time!

Now that is a sensible setup. The 1.75" pistons should be great. What size rotor? And thanks for posting those pictures, those angles really help to see how the caliper is constructed. The steel c-section, that is one piece right? Not sure what I am seeing that looks like a seam in the one picture.

[Jay@GMR]

Now that is a sensible setup. The 1.75" pistons should be great. What size rotor? And thanks for posting those pictures, those angles really help to see how the caliper is constructed. The steel c-section, that is one piece right? Not sure what I am seeing that looks like a seam in the one picture.

Yes, very sensible, affordable, and packed full of features. I was hoping as the details kept flowing about these calipers they would slowly win over even the most critical of eyes. I really was thinking that engineers would appreciate the strategic usage of materials/design since this is obviously a well engineered product that is strong/stiff.

This is The Brake Man F4 caliper body outfitted with optional 1.75" pistons, although GMR's C5/6 front brake kit consists of this F4 with 1.870" pistons...... but certainly could be substituted for a 1.75" piston caliper if the application permitted it. The GMR/Brake Man front kit utilizes a 13"x 1.25" rotor. As for the steel bridge, yes it is one piece.

This front F4 kit coupled with our GMR/Brake Man rear kit that utilizes the F3 caliper with 1.5" pistons on a 12"x .810 rotor will surely get the job done at the auto-x and more importantly at any open track event as it has proven at many NASA, AIX, etc. events.

[ace_xp2]

Any info you would like to add from first hand experience with The Brake Man calipers as the original poster had asked for?

Nope, that's why my comments and queries here were all in response to statements made about caliper design and general brake system design.

[65-fastback]

THANKS GUYS FOR THE INPUT!!

Next summer I will update you concerning my experience between the Tornado and the Wilwood calipers.
I only switch my calipers and pads, the rest will be reused.

If someone else has experience with these brakes, please feel free to share with us on this posting.

upcoming winter i will update my project:
https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?53462-65-shelby-recreation-408w&highlight=recreation