Mark Stielow's Red Devil '69 Camaro vs. 2012 Chevy Camaro ZL1

[Jeff70]

64-Y2Hvnfrg

[sik68]

SOOOOO sick thank you!

Thanks for doing this vid, Mark! More vindication for the pro-touring hobby.

[Steve68]

I love watching that car run around the track!!! the sound, how it handles, good job on the building and driving Mark!

[Tango68SS]

OUTSTANDING Mark!! Two rides I would LOVE to have in my stable! Keep up the great work and I can't wait to see your '67 roll!

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Awesome. Thanks for posting this.

[Larry Callahan]

64-Y2Hvnfrg

[BuzzKillian]

So.... it takes 9 more seconds to run the long course.... Good to know... LOL

[SLO_Z28]

No surprise there, the new camaro is a big heavy wallowing pig.

[srh3trinity]

I think it says a lot for the DSE parts. I know there was a power and weight discrepancy, but Stielow keeps choosing their stuff for his builds and then he goes out and pounds the competition.

[Pagani]

I would like to see shootout a the red devils vs other high performance cars how it it's compared to a brand new state of art production example ferrari 458 nissan r35 gtr etc that would be bad ass
Handling braking 1/4 mile standing mile etc.

[Chadman27]

Anybody know what tires each car had on them?

[SLO_Z28]

Anybody know what tires each car had on them?

I think they both had the best real street tires on them, the Pilot Sports.

[andrewb70]

I merged the two threads that were made about this video. The video is fantastic!

Andrew

[Rick D]

I would like to see shootout a the red devils vs other high performance cars how it it's compared to a brand new state of art production example ferrari 458 nissan r35 gtr etc that would be bad ass
Handling braking 1/4 mile standing mile etc.

I believe 2010 when Mark won Optima there was a Nissan GTR, but I think if you did a test of the cars you mentioned with Mark driving all the cars it would be cool to see which one comes out on top! Like last year, if Mark was driving the Vett that Danny won Optima with it may have had a different ending. Not saying Danny is less of a driver then Mark both are very great drivers but the Vett had some aero advantages over the 69 Camaro that's for sure. Would be cool to see none the less!

[Stielow]

Anybody know what tires each car had on them?

They both had production Goodyear Super Car II tires 220 treadwear. The stock tires on the ZR-1 and Red Devil had production Corvette Z06 tires.

Mark

[mc84_zz4]

Great Video clip! I just love to hear the sound of the wailing throtle on Red Devil.
Drive it like you stole it! :twothumbs:

[JEFFTATE]

This is probably the best video of the year .

[MAP]

Greetings Folks,

I almost never post here, so I need to ask - is this the correct place to discuss the handling characteristics of this car? I saw a graph of transverse acceleration and longitudinal velocity reproduced in 12/12 "HotRod" magazine, and some aspects seem puzzling given the specifications for both cars (i.e., the 1969 "Red Devil" vs. the 2012 ZL1.)

Thank you,
MAP

[J-440]

Love it that a 69 can hang with the new ZL-1. Kudos to Mark and DSE for doing it. One thing...the price it cost to build Red Devil. I guarantee that there is over 100K in Mark's car while the new ZL-1 is over $60K. Power to weight ratio is another factor. Anyway, still a kick ass car!!

[72BBSwinger]

Lets see Marks new Camaro.

[MAP]

Greetings,

On the one hand, glad to see that my first post didn't alter the course of this thread. On the other hand, a quick reply of a nature, "post in such-and-such a place," would have been most helpful. As an engineer, I'm puzzled as to why Mark's car didn't do somewhat better compared to the ZL-1 in transverse acceleration. The location of both car's COM's in relation to their respective tire patches may be at the root of this, but this is only conjecture on my part. Or, it may be rooted in both car's non-linear handling responses near the edges of traction.

If this is over the top or simply out of place in this thread, I'd completely understand being corrected or re-directed.

Thank you,
MAP

[High Plains Mopars]

Sometimes you just need to ask a question a few times to get the responses you seek. However, it may be better answered in the Advanced Tech section.

While it is very cool to see the '69s level of performance, I think Hot Rod's article on it made a very valid point in that for what it would cost to buy Steilow's Camaro, you can buy two ZL1s and a base model V6 for a commuter. That is a pretty serious delta in price for the performance achieved that tends to really point out the value of the late model over the classic.

[MAP]

Thanks High Plains - will do! Best - MAP

[Stielow]

The ZR-1 has a much wider track width so its max lat capabiliy is a little better due to the way it can load the tires. The CG and track width help define the work the tires can do cornering. Because both car are on Goodyear Super Car II tires that is fairly equal. So chassis tuning and geomerty make up the rest of it.

Mark



Greetings,

On the one hand, glad to see that my first post didn't alter the course of this thread. On the other hand, a quick reply of a nature, "post in such-and-such a place," would have been most helpful. As an engineer, I'm puzzled as to why Mark's car didn't do somewhat better compared to the ZL-1 in transverse acceleration. The location of both car's COM's in relation to their respective tire patches may be at the root of this, but this is only conjecture on my part. Or, it may be rooted in both car's non-linear handling responses near the edges of traction.

If this is over the top or simply out of place in this thread, I'd completely understand being corrected or re-directed.

Thank you,
MAP

[72BBSwinger]

I cant help but think there had to be a little "dont crap where you eat" going on Mr. Stielow. Im 100% sure this little comparo probably just sold a few ZL1s. Your Red Devil should of killed the ZL1 IMO.

[MAP]

Hi Folks,

Mark - many thanks for your reply. I really should start a new thread in the "Advanced Tech" section as High Plains recommended. Briefly for now: the pictures in the Hot Rod article seem to indicate roughly 8% narrower track width for the RD re the ZL1. But my guess is that the height of your COM may be roughly that same fraction lower too, but I have almost no data to go on. The ZL1 has a very high belt line, and I'm also guessing, lots of weight in the superstructure to meet rollover standards. This argues for a high COM. But the RD has a roll cage and heavy (1-2lb/ft^2?) noise barrier treatment on the roof (in addition to the rest of the cabin) which may also push its COM higher. Ditto the LS7/9 motor - I'm guessing maybe 530 lb and a high COM for the motor considered in isolation because of its SC? These would tend to point to a COM that's rather high in the RD relative to the car's original design, but maybe not so much so as to give the ZL1 an advantage here in relation to track width. I'd imagine you'd like to reduce some of the inertia terms, especially I zz, and pull the COM (= high-frequency yaw center, presumably,) more rearward in the car. For this reason I'm pondering an LS7 with a Squires-like rear mount turbo for my mid-80's G-body project.

Also, if the comparative drawing was really done to scale in the article, you seemed to be running more static negative front camber (-2 deg?) than the ZL1, and the video seemed to hint that you reduced the ride height beneath the book's claim of minimum 4" ground clearance.

Anyway, my point is that I remain somewhat puzzled about how the cars compared in transverse acceleration. Longitudinally - if I read the velocity graph correctly, and you had both cars at WOT in the final straightaway, then the RD had an average of 58% higher acceleration than the ZL1 - amazing - and, if I use the SAE numbers of 580-ish hp at the rear wheels for the ZL1, then the RD would map to roughly 780hp. If the graph were calibrated for velocity and time, then I could calculate mechanical power more directly from the derivative.

This is just scratching the surface...

Questions notwithstanding, the RD is an absolutely amazing accomplishment!

Thanks,
MAP

[MAP]

Greetings Folks,

I just read the forum rules which stipulate that there should be no technical interchanges in this "Open (Pro Touring) Discussion" forum. My apologies, therefore, about my posts. I'll switch to the advanced tech forum.

Thank you,
MAP