Is pro-touring dead b4 it began?

[JoshStratton]

Think about it. The majority of members on this board dont really seem to have a grasp on what it is supposed to be. Many talk about putting a 800hp engine in a car with real good handeling and call it pro-touring. I was under the assumption (and I may be one of the incorrect ones) that Pro-touring simply meant a DECENT (300-400) amount of HP and awesome realiability in an excellent handling car. It is supposed to be something you can drive across country and turn around and run it at a drag strip. It seems some who claim they have pro-touring cars are simply creating 75K 'trailer-queens' that won't be driven (while beautiful and a natural progression in any car design type), or are putting in high HP engines that will rip the frame apart on the first corner.

Given all of this, I think the Pro-Touring idea is just a phase. Those of us who really want a true pro-touring car are few and far between. Actually, it is not that we are the only ones who want one, we are the only ones who understand the concept. Otherwise, they seem to be Pro-Street cars with upgraded suspensions.

The G/28 project is a great attempt at describing what a pro-touring car should be, but the fact that it seems they almost had to convince the readers what a pro-touring car is supposed to be with it is further evidence that it really isnt understood. I think putting the definition on this site's homepage is a step in the right direction, but still isnt probably enough.

Sorry for the frustration. Any thoughts or am I just nuts?

[TonyL]

welcome to the discussion that has been going on since the term pro-touring was thought up.

for us, pro-touring encompasses all build styles, mild to wild in the pro-toured theme.

some will come and tout "street fighters" others "g-machines" etc.

pro-touring is the general label all these cars fall under. And discussion about them all is what this place is about.

[WELTERRACER]

I dont understand what you are saying..

You can add a supercharger to just about any engine and make 600-800hp and still drive it from Newyork to california!

I agree some on here to spend waaaay too much money on the paint job to be practical... but some on here can afford be be picky! (Im not included)

as long as it is a nice car with Handling modifications done and disc brakes and atleast 400hp i think it is a protouring car...

You cannot say that a car with 800hp cannot be PT...

PT= any car that can handle corners at high speeds and out acclerate most stock vehicals and has the looks similar to a show car!

[TonyL]

oh and before this spirals way out of hand let me just interject.

lets not turn this into a flame war.

everyone is entitled to his own opinion of what pro-touring means to them. And that's what we want.

/discuss.

[JLM]

See in this lies the problem Kuhlryde. I would describe true pro-touring a lot differently than you just did. To me a pro-touring car is one built purpously for handling. A car that is not a show car (but in same cases maybe showable) but rather one that gets driven quite a lot on the street and sees racing events on an open track or auto-x. To me the car you described even at 300-400 hp would a street fighter. The PT look but racing done primarily on a drag strip and light to light (tisk tisk) races.

That's the whole problem. The general consensus abotu waht pro-touring is, isn't general at all. For me, my car will see a decent amount of auto-x and open track as well as a lot of street driving. Thus I'm spending more money on suspension and performance items than I am on amenities like kooshy seats, AC and $1000+ stereos. however that doesn't make a car with those items and less of a PT car in the owner's eye.

Did that make any sense?

[yody]

Well first off, I don't why you consider yourself part of some exclusive club "who gets it" when in reality you don't. Funny that the guy who coined the term "pro-touring" recently built 2 twin turbo 1200 horse pro-touring cars. Have fun at the track getting blown by on the straight aways with only 300 horse. NOt sure where you got the idea about 3-400 horse?? Definetly not true, the more horse the merrier!(to an extent) I do agree about all the trailer queens being called pro-touring, but why not? Every thing in life has its showpieces. These posts shouldn't even be allowed anymore, it seems they pop up every month or so

[ssdeuce]

The G/28 project is a great attempt at describing what a pro-touring car should be, but the fact that it seems they almost had to convince the readers what a pro-touring car is supposed to be with it is further evidence that it really isnt understood. I think putting the definition on this site's homepage is a step in the right direction, but still isnt probably enough.

Sorry for the frustration. Any thoughts or am I just nuts?


So you are saying spending 8K on a engine that only has 400 HP is what a pro-touring car is supposed to be? I like the project g28 I thing it has some great ideals but I do not like the engine. They could big block it and have that kind of HP with half the cost.

[Little Bob]

Here we go again, hasn't this been beat to death before. I get so sick of car people arguing over a overused term. :throw:

[TonyL]

"...some exclusive club "who gets it" when in reality you don't.

yody, you are implying that you get it and he doesn't.

this is exactly the thing im talking about. quit with the flamin'.
Discuss with out forcing your opinons on each other.

if this degrades further, im locking the thread.

[JoshStratton]

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH Rebel Rouser!

I am not trying to offend anyone, just get a clear understanding of whether what I am doing is PT or not. Like I said in my original post...
"...and I may be one of the incorrect ones"

Johnny Hunkins, in one of his editorials (or in G/28...I cannot remember which) wrote out a definition of Pro-Touring and mentioned how many people have it wrong. I guess what I was trying to say is that I don't agree/disagree with what he was saying, but I know that what they are doing with G/28 is what I was doing with mine (sort of).

I am just wondering how you can have a definate style of build when everyone seems to have a different opinion of how it will be done.

Awe forget it. I will just be happy with my car and enjoy what everyone else is doing. I am done trying to figure out the boundries. I never seem to stay in them anyway.

Sorry to annoy you all.

All around: :cheers:

[trapin]

:pat: :hammer: :banghead:

Sorry.

[TonyL]

dude. there are no boundries. Build what you want how you want. We'll dig it.

Pro-touring is what YOU want it to be.

and thats the official standpoint.

[Matt@RFR]

Awe forget it. I will just be happy with my car and enjoy what everyone else is doing. I am done trying to figure out the boundries. I never seem to stay in them anyway.

Now you "get it".

[Little Bob]

I was just wondering, who created the term "Pro-Touring".

[JoshStratton]

Good question. Gonna lay a 'smack down'? :wedgie:

[TonyL]

Scott parkhurst and Mark Stielow thought it up. I think.

[Steve1968LS2]

No.. it has only just began to catch on :)

Just look at how many pro-touring type cars were part of the "street machine of the year" deal..

In the end though it is just a lable to help us have meaningful converstations (so we don't have to say "that car").. enjoy what you drive and build it to fit YOUR dream

[Q ship]

Scott parkhurst and Mark Stielow thought it up. I think.
Close. Stielow and Jeff Smith, chronicled in (some month) CHP, 1998.

It's sad how much time is devoted to this pointless question.
Guys with race cars don't sit and think, "what is a race car".

Too much bench racing going on, also. My car isn't done yet, but I don't feel like droning on in multiple posts about how awesome it's gonna be. I'll build it the way I damn well please, and drive/track/enjoy it, and maybe post a few pics. Progress updates on the very intensive builds are always nice to see and a source of inspiration, but I see a lot of "look at me!!!" posts now.

Think about it. The guys building the really nice cars on this site, don't stop to ask "what am I doing?" They have the vision to see it through, labels be damned. That's why I keep coming back, to watch what the groundbreakers are doing, and hopefully gain some ideas and inspiration for my build.

You guys are bringing me down.

[rocketman]

pro touring is kinda like pro street,in the since everyone has a differnet opinion on build styles.some think pro street is cars that look like they run 200 butdont have the hp,to me pro touring cars are built like road racer with great brakes and cornering with the hp to back it up.

[Steve1968LS2]

Think about it. The guys building the really nice cars on this site, don't stop to ask "what am I doing?" They have the vision to see it through, labels be damned.

If any of us stopped to ask that question we would immediatly check ourselves into psych wards.. It is best just to not think about it and build the damn car

Just let it slide................... :smoke:

[chicane67]

Pro-Touring started back in the middle 60's.....

They used to call it Trans Am Racing, but those to the likes of Richard Guldstrand, Carrol Shelby and a few others just added a license plate to 'em and thus coined the "Tuner cars" of what we now refer to as Pro-Touring.

But, Pro-Touring by its definition would be a "professionally built touring chassis." So, in reality, it doesnt even define what we are doing today.

"Pro-Touring" however, was a phrase coined by those noted in a previous post a few years ago. But, there are many of 'us' doing this kinda stuff way before it really had a name or a term attached to it.

But, Tony summed this topic up to a "T".....


Pro-touring is what YOU want it to be.

[TonyL]

Close. Stielow and Jeff Smith, chronicled in (some month) CHP, 1998.

damn. I knew that. I even have that magazine!

[Matt@RFR]

It's sad how much time is devoted to this pointless question.
Guys with race cars don't sit and think, "what is a race car".

Too much bench racing going on, also. My car isn't done yet, but I don't feel like droning on in multiple posts about how awesome it's gonna be. I'll build it the way I damn well please, and drive/track/enjoy it, and maybe post a few pics. Progress updates on the very intensive builds are always nice to see and a source of inspiration, but I see a lot of "look at me!!!" posts now.

Think about it. The guys building the really nice cars on this site, don't stop to ask "what am I doing?" They have the vision to see it through, labels be damned. That's why I keep coming back, to watch what the groundbreakers are doing, and hopefully gain some ideas and inspiration for my build.

You guys are bringing me down.

No comment...I just thought this thread needed Brian's words in it twice.

[JamesJ]

Close. Stielow and Jeff Smith, chronicled in (some month) CHP, 1998.

It's sad how much time is devoted to this pointless question.
Guys with race cars don't sit and think, "what is a race car".

Too much bench racing going on, also. My car isn't done yet, but I don't feel like droning on in multiple posts about how awesome it's gonna be. I'll build it the way I damn well please, and drive/track/enjoy it, and maybe post a few pics. Progress updates on the very intensive builds are always nice to see and a source of inspiration, but I see a lot of "look at me!!!" posts now.

Think about it. The guys building the really nice cars on this site, don't stop to ask "what am I doing?" They have the vision to see it through, labels be damned. That's why I keep coming back, to watch what the groundbreakers are doing, and hopefully gain some ideas and inspiration for my build.

You guys are bringing me down.


I third it, I hate that the term was ever invented, if someone ask me if my car is “pro-touring” I will say yes, if someone ask me if my car is a “hot-rod” I will say sure. I doesn’t matter to me. But if some one asks me what kind of car it is, I will tell them one that it is a “I love to drive car”

[MuscleRodz]

I think I will give up on this revolving door question. I agree, it is what you make of it and leave it at that. Everything else is symantics.

Mike

[bnickel]

my thoughts are that the pro touring car evolved from the original canyon carvers of the late 70's to early 90's which were heavily influenced byb the trans am cars of the mid-late 60's and early 70's. all of which were either muscle cars or pony cars (that debate i don't want to get into). so to me the pro-touring car is an evolution of these cars with suspension, brake and engine improvements combined with the reliability of more modern cars with at least some creature comforts but mainly are about cornering ability and the most important part of the term pro touring which is the touring part. in other words the cars are meant to be driven and driven hard and fast but relilable enough to "tour" the country. i'm quite certain the Hot Rod power tour had a quite a bit to do with the term "pro-touring" when it was first conceived.

but to me it is mainly a car that has been modified for much better than stock handling, braking, acceleration and overall performance and is capable of being driven long distances without worry of breaking down, overheating etc. i also don't think the trailer queens qualify as true pro touring cars since they spend most of their driving time being driven on and off a trailer, however some people build their cars in the pro touring style with the intention of driving the crap out of the car as soon as it has been retired from the show circuit, i see absolutely nothing wrong with that. in fact if you build a high dollar car and want to show it off for a while until the newness of it is worn off, then go for it, collect a few trophies, show it off and then drive it until the wheels fall off. i plan on showing my car a time or two as well but it will be driven to any and all shows it goes to, since i don't own a trailer or a truck for that matter (my jeep cheroke doesn't really count as tow vehicle).

ok, that's my definition of pro-tour car, it doesn't matter to me if it has 15" wheels or 18" wheels as long as it has the overall performance to back it up, be it 400hp or 1400hp it doesn't matter as long as it gets the job done and you are happy with what you have built.

[steemin]

I am sorry but you are all wrong!
Al Gore invented Pro Touring ...

Anyway back to the original post..
I am in the camp that believes that no one can define what is PT and what is not PT. If you want to call your car Pro Touring who am I
(or anyone else for that matter) to argue otherwise.

In regards to Pro Touring being a fad or a phase that will quickly die off. I respectfully disagree. I believe that Pro Touring will continue to prosper. The reason being that most of the cars being built are cars that are built with a purpose.That purpose being to build a car that is a pleasure to drive. This holds true for PT cars built for the street,track or a combination thereof.
This is where previous "fads" fell short. Pro street,low riders and other build styles do not have the staying power because they really are not that fun to drive.They may look cool,sound good,be fast or have some unique innovations (i.e. hydraulics). But after a few miles are they really a pleasure to drive? I think not.
As for the "trailer Queens". I am not one to beat these guys up.
This is just another arena to showcase talent, ideas and concepts.
I say thanks and kudos to the guys building these cars as well.
These are just my opinions..
Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited by law. Cash value 1/16th of a cent.
Scott

[USAZR1]

Protouring is an idea or concept whose time has come,,maybe even a dream of what we think these cars should become. The greatest danger,as I see it,is it being kept in a tiny niche. We can help channel it into the mainstream of hot rodding but trying to micromanage it will only lead to its destruction.

[bnickel]

just to clarify on a point i made in my earlier post, when i said the car should be driven it doesn't matter to me really if it is driven on the street or track. i do think however that to truly be in the spirit of pro touring the car should spend at least some of it's driving time on the street otherwise it is really a race car, like the early ta cars.

[yody]

gotta love the newbies!

[asmith1968]

I think they have a term for a car with 300-400hp that handles really well. Its called a TOURING car. If this coined term pro-touring merges the qualities of both pro-street and touring dont you think a car with some serious HP would apply?

[Steve1968LS2]

pro-touring is not a fad.. it's an evolution


How about that for a bumper sticker?

[Nine Ball]

Hey Ralph, hurry up with those definitions dude! (HAHA)

I think most of us on this site get the idea of what "pro-touring" cars are. But, many others out there just slap 20" wheels, lowering springs, and disk brakes on an old car and are quick to give it the pro-touring label.

I think as long as it is an older car, and can equal or exceed the acceleration, braking, and handling of late model RWD performance cars, as well as maintain the reliablity and drivability of them, it would be pro-touring. This means compared to late model Camaros, Vettes, Supras, GTO, Mustang, etc...

As for show queens, thats only a factor of budget. Hopefully even those show queens will get driven someday so they can 'earn' their label.

I have an idea Larry, come up with a "Pro-Touring Certification" decal and have people submit photos and specs of their cars to you. If the car fits the defined category, it gets a nice little certification decal directly from Pro-Touring.com. lol

[SSMOORE]

Besides the handling and the hp A pro-tour car to me like Tony said will have all the creature comforts of a new car .. ac, power windows, Nice comfy seats. Just to list a few.

I agree with you on painting the bottom of the car show quality and stuff like that. That stuff to me would be done to a show car. Tour to me means driving and I personally dont like driving a car like that on the street. Why do I feel like that? Because I had one and its no fun worrying about going thru a mud puddle or running something over. My car looked like crap in no time on the road side. So if your gonna drive it not trailer or show it, I think its a waste of time. But others like that type of thing I suppose. Like they say if we all thought the same and had the same taste we would all be driving identical cars.

steve

[ramz69ss]

well,,,we all are driving indentical cars,,,,also most,,,our budgets only control the end result,,,,but who cares,,,then this site would have hundreds of mules and big reds,,,,i don't see a problem "big smile",,i just wish there was more ratical cars being built,that is what i like

[vanzuuk1]

Remember what Bob Rossi said, "its your little world" Do what you want and call it what you want.

[Scott Parkhurst]

Scott parkhurst and Mark Stielow thought it up. I think.


Wasn't me...that was Jeff and Mark as described.

The term "g-Machine" was the result of a meeting I attended, though. We at PHR were trying to come up with a term besides Pro-Touring, because at that time PHR and the Petersen titles were in competition, and we didn't want to use "their" terminology.

We debated several different terms, including "Supercars" "Pro-Slalom" and others before deciding on "g-Machine"...which was Cam Evans' idea.

The only thing important I've ever created was the Engine Masters Challenge, and I had lots of help with that. Randy Fish came up with that title.

The only cool "word" I invented that others have acutally used was "Technostalgia"...which I came up with in '97.

Unfortunately, nobody cared...LOL!!

SP~

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Pro-Touring is not dead, but the horse sure is! Sorry, I had to...













I think Tony summed up what pro-touring is pretty well in his post. In a nutshell, make your classic out-perform modern performance cars in every way possible, while retaining decent ride quality and comfort.

[KrisHorton]

The only cool "word" I invented that others have acutally used was "Technostalgia"...which I came up with in '97.


That term is now the name of the LED taillight company. Funny. Maybe they planted a ringer in the meeting while they were trying to come up with a name...or not..

Kris

[Zefhix]

It's sad how much time is devoted to this pointless question. Guys with race cars don't sit and think, "what is a race car".

Amen....these threads are what drives me to drink. What is the incessant need to fit in some sort of build category. Do you know what I honestly tell people about the Chevelle...I tell them I'm building a car that will do everything well. Straight lines, corners (very hard corners), top speed...braking. Just a well balanced car...didn't we all already agree that was our common goal?

Brian, how the hell are you out there?

[chicane67]

That term is now the name of the LED taillight company. Funny. Maybe they planted a ringer in the meeting while they were trying to come up with a name...or not..

Kris

Yeah..... kinda like G/28 ??

[PRO TC]

...I tell them I'm building a car that will do everything well. Straight lines, corners (very hard corners), top speed...braking. Just a well balanced car...didn't we all already agree that was our common goal?


thats it you said just about everything except it will go to the fridge and get you a beer lol. thats how i look at pro touring cars
pro tc

[Silverbird]

It's funny to me how many people get there panties in a bunch about this. I could care less what someone calls my car. I like classic cars I just hate how a stock 30 or 40 year old car runs and handles. We go through this every month or so. No offense guys I could care less what you guys call my car. I dig it and I dig all the cars on this site. I think too many people are trying to find the exact definition of "Pro-Touring" and are following some formula they read in a magazine or website. That will make our hobby boring. Its all Hot Rodding. Just have fun.

[Dragonsnake]

Exactly:worship: .Have fun and lets make our old cars handle.Simple as that

[primate]

this arguement reminds me of whats a street car. some people say you need power brakes, yadda yadda yadda. then there are the hard core guys with no interior 10-71 454 powerglide ladderbar cars with aluminum dashboards that say because they drive on the street its a street car.

my idea of pro touring is a high powered car that can out manuver, out brake and out accelerate the originals of the time, with larger diameter rims and a lowered stance being prerequisites. but there are exceptions to every rule, lol.

[BuddyP]

Isn't PT basically any vehicle that has handling/braking/motor upgrades that can be driven both on street and track? That's a pretty broad range there.

4 years ago I sold my '91 GMC Syclone to build a house, since then I've wanted a 1st gen Camaro but didn't want the old tech. I wanted to upgrade the suspension and motor and put nice wheels and disc brakes on it along with slightly upgraded interior. 3 years later I found a bought a '68 Camaro roller (last summer) to start working on with the same envision. The week before I picked up the car was the first time I saw a PHR mag in a gas station. I picked it up to see Andy Hartmans car in there with the label "g-machine"... I said "Oh, so that's what they are calling this style of mods", you know, the same direction I wanted to go from day one. It was just this past March that I found this site while searching the web for "g-machines". Fact is my envision fits into this catagory. It's not a Pro-Street or a original classic, it's not a factory tuner or Jap tuner. But fact is I doubt my car will ever see a track. It will be a weekend driver and even a "show queen" if you will. I call it a mild PT car... some of you may not, and personally I could really care less. It'll be my car that was built the way I want it within my budget and the simple fact is that it fits the PT genre over any other term.