Opinions on my combination thoughts.

[JoshStratton]

Hello.

I want a nice powerplant that gets pretty good gas milage and has excellent driveability. What do you think of this combination?

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4228&prmenbr=361
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1516&prmenbr=361

and a TK500 transmission (or T-56...havent figured out exactly how much would have to be done for the t56 to fit in a 79 TA).

But as far as the engine combination goes, what do you think I will see in regards to gas milage and HP gain/loss due to the EFI? Plus I can sell the carb and manifold to pay for part of the EFI

[JoshStratton]

...Oh yeah. One main requirement...I have to be able to keep my shaker hood. That is why I didnt suggest the Ram jet

[Lowend]

The 330HP engine is a nice combo, but that Edelbrock fuel injection setup is a piece of junk. The hard parts are not bad, but the ECM and the ability to be programmed is awful.
If you want Fuel injection I would suggest staying with either FAST or Accel DFI. Yes they do cost more, and there is a good reason... they work better.
Poor running EFI can be one of the most frustrating things there is, spend the extra money up front to do it right.

another note, the 330HP engine uses L31 Vortec heads, which have a special bolt pattern on the intake. You cannot use a conventional intake on those heads, it must be the Vortec style.

[JoshStratton]

Thanks for the advise! I am new to efi and basically the Edelbrock was the first one I could find that would let me keep my shaker hood. I really like the GM Ram Jet, but would lose the ability to keep the shaker.

Who makes the FAST and Accel DFI that you mentioned? I have seen traces of them, but dont know anything about them.

[deadcarny]

330hp would be killed to less than 285 at the tires (given the driveline robs only 15%). Might want to look into at least 400 at the crank in the late 2nd gens if you want to get down the straightaways quickly. IMO, 285rwhp is nothing in a 3500lb car (less driver). I had over 400rwhp in my camaro (3420 less driver) and it was plenty for me. I would say that anywhere from 340-380rwhp would be perfect for a true driver that can be driven at all times.

[Lowend]

http://www.fuelairspark.com/

http://www.accel-dfi.com/

[JoshStratton]

330hp would be killed to less than 285 at the tires (given the driveline robs only 15%). Might want to look into at least 400 at the crank in the late 2nd gens if you want to get down the straightaways quickly. IMO, 285rwhp is nothing in a 3500lb car (less driver). I had over 400rwhp in my camaro (3420 less driver) and it was plenty for me. I would say that anywhere from 340-380rwhp would be perfect for a true driver that can be driven at all times.

Hmmmmm.....so I may be back to the 502 again.

[SSMOORE]

If your looking for a good deal get a old style fast. For what your doing bank to bank would be fine and with Fast's new xfi coming out some dealers are blowing out the old style ecu's. Also theres another company called bigstuff3 that has a real nice ecu. To give you a idea what they cost i will list some general pricing.

BigStuff gen3 with wideband o2 1795.00 or with data logging internal 1995.00

Fast xfi with wideband o2 2150.00

Accel gen7 no wide band 1500 plus ad the cost of a wide band.generally between 200.00 to 1000.00.. get what ya pay for here.

Not sure what what the old fast is going for . It depends on how bad a dealer wants to get rid of them . Would be less for sure than the xfi. The above prices are list also so if you can find it cheaper then thats good.

Then you will need a host of other stuff. The wiring harness is included in the stuff listed but there are a bunch more stuff you need to finish a complete efi setup. some of those are.

Injectors 400 to 500 for a good bosch or delphi .
Throttlebody 400.00 to 550.00
Fuel pressure regulator 150.00
Sensors = tps, iac, coolant temp, air temp. map ...figure 200.00 to 300.00
Fuel pump ? depends on what ya want
Fuel cell? also depends . there are several options.
Misc fittings ?
Fuel lines, return and feed?
o2 bung for your headers. 15.00

If you want timing control you will need a regular pro billet for sbc plus a msd crank trigger and a msd 6al. or a msd 2345 cam sync distributor and a 6al.. all this assumes sequential.. Accel has there own plug and play distributor but I have not looked into what it would require so i am no help there. Or I guess you could buy a complete system from Accell. It has everthing minus the distributor and wideband o2.

Also Holley has a system called commander 950. It can be bought in a 2 part kit. One price for the computer and harness and then stuff like the manifold, sensors, injectors and so on. They might even have it all in one box not sure. It would do all you need. I have not researched prices yet so im no help there. Should be cheaper than the seperate route listed above

This is the result of about 2 weeks of reading and knowing me it's all worthless .lol. Do with it as you will. :bananna2:

Peace
Steve

[deadcarny]

Hmmmmm.....so I may be back to the 502 again.

Too heavy, unless you are going to move the engine back a little to fix the bias.

[JoshStratton]

OMG I am new to the EFI way of doing things and all of this information you guys are supplying is a whole LOT to take in. Maybe I should start from the beginning.

I would prefer my first engine replacement (I have done VW engines in the past...no comparison for easiness here) to be something fairly simplistic. I like the idea of a GM crate, while modifying it for EFI myself....but I am open to suggestions. I have plenty of time to figure this out.

I really like the idea of the 400+- HP engine. I guess I assumed it would be too much.
If I go with something like that, what should I be looking for with the specs for an ideal EFI setup? Do you think something like this would be better suited or is the compression too high?
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=210083&prmenbr=361

Maybe a GM crate engine is out of the picture at this point?

[SSMOORE]

compression looks good to me.. To decide what would be the best efi setup I would wanna know more what you wanna do with the car.. Oh forgive my ignorance what kinda car is it? What Hood you gonna run or have. Is it gonna have ac? How about nitrous?. Sorry for the above post I had to get that off my chest .lol


steve


Oh to answer you question. With efi hp prolly close to the same with a little better mileage.

[JoshStratton]

Sorry for the above post I had to get that off my chest .lol

Actually that was a HUGE help to me. I like knowing what all I need before I start researching how it works together.

The car is a 1979 Trans Am. I will be making it my daily driver, so A/C will be used. My biggest personal requirement is that I can still keep the shaker hood. I have not yet decided on nitrous. I probably wont use it, but the possibility is always there. I will also be incorporating (at least) at Tk500. I might put in a T56 (which is preferred), but that would require a lot more work.

[CAMAROBOY69]

You are on the right track. Get one of the small block engines but get more than 330HP like what was mentioned above. Dont get the 502 since your looking for decent gas mileage and it will be your daily driver.
Conclusion. If you want a crate engine that is fine. Just get one with more Hp than 330 and you wont regret it. :idea:
I am personaly very happy with what I have. Its a 383stroker with a little over 400hp and can still pull off 20mpg on the highway with a carburetor. So fuel injected would be even better mpg. Good luck and keep us updated.

[JoshStratton]

Oh wow. 20mpg? For some reason I thought you had an ls1. Where did you get your 383 from?

[CAMAROBOY69]

I had a local shop build it for me and I installed it. I kept the stock cast iron heads so with aluminum heads it will run even better. Keep in mind my 20mpg is only on the highway. I also have a T-56 6 speed that helps a LOT with my 4.11 gears!
My average between city driving and highway is around 15mpg with a 750 carb and 4.11 gears. Not bad at all IMO.

[JoshStratton]

Not bad at all...especially when you consider I have a Pontiac 400 (220 measily HP) with a 4 speed and I get 12 highway.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Before I installed the T-56 I had a Borg Warner 4 speed (1.00 4th gear ratio) and I was lucky if I got 10mpg on the highway. :lmao:
I doubled my MPG just by installing the t-56 and now I can easily go 70mph instead of 55.

[JoshStratton]

That is incredible. I want to put in a T56, but I dont know if I can do the work. Not as easy as a first gen would be (from what i understand).

Has anyone delt with 'American Speed'? I hear they do good things:
http://www.amerspeed.com/

[EFI69Cam]

Scoggin Dickey is an Accel dealer, and has good prices. If you want to keep your shaker, look for a EFI system that is built on a single plan manifold, like a Victor Jr.
Accel sells complete plug and play systems that work with the GM crate engines.

[Lowend]

I was just gonna mention that... The ZZ4 is still a VERY nice engine combo for a daily driver and Accel sells an EFI system that is already setup for that specific engine.
It will be kinda like driving around in a 87-92 Corvette, except without cracking paint ;)

Keep in mind that you are going to need to buy brackets and such to convert from the Poncho motor to the Chevy.

I am a fan of the Accel setup, very tuneable. If you ask me on a fairly low HP street motor having a wideband O2 really dosen't buy you anything. All of the mentioned systems are Speed Density based, which means they basically measure manifold pressure and relate those measurements to pre-determined tables of A/F and Spark advance. Not a bad system by any means, but unlike a MAF style setup they are only so sensitive to changes under partial throttle.

I suggest you contact Paul at Dyno West in San Jose (408 298 3968) he is the man when it comes to Fuel injection conversions and can steer you in the right direction.
A few years back we did a F/I ZZ4 in a Porsche 911... jesus did that car go like hell

[JoshStratton]

I was just gonna mention that... The ZZ4 is still a VERY nice engine combo for a daily driver and Accel sells an EFI system that is already setup for that specific engine.
Sorry, I think I lost where that was mentioned. Did you mean the
GM ZZ4 350cid (http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4229&prmenbr=361)

or the GM ZZ 383 (http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=210083&prmenbr=361)

I think the compression of 10.1:1 on the first one is too high for EFI isnt it?

Thanks for being patient with me.

[JoshStratton]

but unlike a MAF style setup they are only so sensitive to changes under partial throttle.

This is something I still do not understand. I understand the concept of the speed density and how it will look up the pre-determined values for spark and fuel in a table based on the amount of airflow.

I guess I dont get the concept of the MAF style. I know you need a sensor between the air filter and throttle body that will measure the amount of air the engine is ingesting. I dont see how it uses that measurement to get the right spark timing and fuel needed. I can imagine it is probably some complicated calculation.

Being more advanced, is the probable extra calculation time from the MAF style EFIs noticeable in response?

[SSMOORE]

Your right A wideband o2 isnt a must. Atleast till you got to tune it. Still not a must but oh so much easier. All the systems I listed are good . Some are better for different combinations. Like for instance If your gonna run ac, the wot ac cut off is nice to have also ac idle anticapate. None of these aftermarket systems run a maf that I know of. Except maybe motec not sure. But I dont think he wants to sell his first born to get a motec so we wont go there.

If you want to run nitrous some of them have nitrous control for 3 or 4 steps. Nice feature if you have a need. The new fast xfi and the accel gen 7 have this.

Also theres nothing wrong with a big block. Yea a small block is lighter. but ask yourself this question. are you going to the track? Or are you looking for a good handling street car? If its a street car you can have decent handling and the awesome tourqe that a bb chevy can give you on the street. Makes for a fun car. Whats so nice about a bb chevy is that you can make decent power and awesome tourqe in a very streetable pkg. Much more fun on the street in my opinion than a high strung sbc.

steve

[Lowend]

Don't fear 10-1 compression, espically with Aluminum heads and F/I. Fuel injected motors are capiable to running much more compression than carbed motors due to the better control of timing and knock sensors.

Don't get me wrong here, the Speed Density system is just fine for the kind of application you are dealing with. A MAF system still uses a MAP sensor (speed density) as a supplemental, the MAF gives an extra dimension to the readings. A MAF is basically a hot wire and measures airflow by how quickly the wire cools. It isn't magic, it just gives the ECM more data to work with when calculating. All of the current GM engines use a MAF system because it is very flexable and adapts well to altitude and temp changes. Rather than depending completely on pre set tables a MAF system has the ability to improvise and learn its permaters a little better

[JoshStratton]

I am a little worried about the BB because I would like to get as close to 25mpg highway as possible with this engine. I am not sure I can acheive that with the 502 and a TKO500.

I like the idea of using an MAF system, but it sounds like it isnt really necessary. This car will be a daily driver, but only Spring - Fall. I dont think I will need that much of an EFI system to get what I want out of it.

[SSMOORE]

25mpg is a lofty goal even for the 400hp small block. You can get better gas mpg with the fi and the tko but.. Thats close to what my 99 ws6 firebird would get cruising down the highway at 70mph.. It was a 330 hp ls1 with a t56 .50 od and im sure it was a little more aerodynamic and lighter than a second gen and was sporting the latest technology gm had to offer. So I would set my sites a little lower and be realistic.


steve

[SSMOORE]

Oh and I agree with lowend.. Get a gm crate engine that accel has a turnkey kit for. Saves you the hassle of trying to figure the whole mess out and tuning it would be a non issue. Thats all been done for you.

[JoshStratton]

Was that the ZZ4 350 or the ZZ 383? I kinda figured it would be unrealistic but would like to get as close as possible. I would be extatic if I could get 20.

[SSMOORE]

I think its for the zz4 350 engine.

accel bank to bank = 77350

accel seq with sync distributor= 77350s

accel seq with sync distributor and wideband o2= 77350ws

steve