The SN65 Thread - 65 Mustang with 03 Cobra Everything

[Steve Chryssos]

Bob,
No "struck nerves" here. I'm just a very direct (tactless) individual. Given that car is not appropriate for Ridler or SMOTY contention, please keep posting pictures. You seem like a great guy. And when a project nears completion, it's easy to be dazzled into thinking that you've created the next big thing. Very few of us can reach that ideal. I sure as hell can't.

At the risk of offending you, I would like to get into specifics. Maybe it will help if I elaborate on subjects where others have been holding back:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Here we see an image with exposed wiring and hardware that runs dangerously close to suspension parts. When the Ridler dude says "poor engineering" this is what he is referring too. No amount of welding, fabrication or bodywork can compensate for this sort of workmanship. The Ridler people might only care that it does not look clean. I'm more concerned about the reliability aspects. Oil filters and cooler that are placed in wheelwells could easily result in a James Bond-esque oil slick finding its way under your tires. So it's not just insightly, it's dangerous. Sometimes the best bodymen make the worst mechanics. We're not talking about a difference of opinion here, the above image reflects a packaging failure.

I hope that you will accept this as constructive criticism. Re-group: Move beyond the welding rod and bondo focus, and start looking at SN65 as a car that must function properly.

Keep the pix coming.

Edit: Sorry for coming across so righteous.

[Jagarang]

The car is seriously cool and I love it. Thanks for keeping us updated Bob.


Now that you mention it, I never even noticed that! It does look really scary though. :scared:

Bob,
No "struck nerves" here. I'm just a very direct (tactless) individual. Given that car is not appropriate for Ridler or SMOTY contention, please keep posting pictures. You seem like a great guy. And when a project nears completion, it's easy to be dazzled into thinking that you've created the next big thing. Very few of us can reach that ideal. I sure as hell can't.

At the risk of offending you, I would like to get into specifics. Maybe it will help if I elaborate on subjects where others have been holding back:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Here we see an image with exposed wiring and hardware that runs dangerously close to suspension parts. When the Ridler dude says "poor engineering" this is what he is referring too. No amount of welding, fabrication or bodywork can compensate for this sort of workmanship. The Ridler people might only care that it does not look clean. I'm more concerned about the reliability aspects. Oil filters and cooler that are placed in wheelwells could easily result in a James Bond-esque oil slick finding its way under your tires. So it's not just insightly, it's dangerous. Sometimes the best bodymen make the worst mechanics. We're not talking about a difference of opinion here, the above image reflects a packaging failure.

I hope that you will accept this as constructive criticism. Re-group: Move beyond the welding rod and bondo focus, and start looking at SN65 as a car that must function properly.

Keep the pix coming.

Edit: Sorry for coming across so righteous.

[SN65]

Bob,
No "struck nerves" here. I'm just a very direct (tactless) individual. Given that car is not appropriate for Ridler or SMOTY contention, please keep posting pictures. You seem like a great guy. And when a project nears completion, it's easy to be dazzled into thinking that you've created the next big thing. Very few of us can reach that ideal. I sure as hell can't.

At the risk of offending you, I would like to get into specifics. Maybe it will help if I elaborate on subjects where others have been holding back:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Here we see an image with exposed wiring and hardware that runs dangerously close to suspension parts. When the Ridler dude says "poor engineering" this is what he is referring too. No amount of welding, fabrication or bodywork can compensate for this sort of workmanship. The Ridler people might only care that it does not look clean. I'm more concerned about the reliability aspects. Oil filters and cooler that are placed in wheelwells could easily result in a James Bond-esque oil slick finding its way under your tires. So it's not just insightly, it's dangerous. Sometimes the best bodymen make the worst mechanics. We're not talking about a difference of opinion here, the above image reflects a packaging failure.

I hope that you will accept this as constructive criticism. Re-group: Move beyond the welding rod and bondo focus, and start looking at SN65 as a car that must function properly.

Keep the pix coming.

Edit: Sorry for coming across so righteous.
Hi S,

You did not come across as to righteous. You had an opinion and voiced it.

As far as awards such as the Ridler and SMOTY go, these are all just fantasies on my part. You have to aspire to something. If, one day, a car we produce is even eligible for one of these awards, I will feel truely blessed.

As far as the wiring harness is concerned, the photos are quite deceiving. There is at least 2" of clearance between it and the coil spring. Also, the strut is in its farthest outboard position. When aligned, it should gain about another 1/2"

Also, the oil filter clears the tire by about 2" and we are going to install a shield to protect the filter and the cooler from road debris. The same goes for the air filter on the other side.

I am currently looking for a wheel well liner to resolve all these issues (and also prevent damage to the tops of the fenders), but have not been successful as of yet (they don't clear the wheel when turned from lock to lock).

As far as constructive criticism goes, I live for it. I would much rather have quality criticisms than feign praise any day.

[SN65]

SNIP...

Bob. you are grafting a old car onto a new one. And taking credit for ford engineers hard work designing every mechanical "system" on the car. You have not improved on the mustang's suspension or powertrain. All you've done is a cosmetic changes, really.
So your car isn't really pro-touring at all. Its a new mustang in old mustang clothes.

SNIP....
Hi Tony,

Thank you for the input. let sme start by saying that I am not trying to be difficult or a smart a$$, but I do take exception to your "You have not improved on the mustang's suspension or powertrain" comment.

Granted we have not made any engine mods yet, but those will come after we establish a baseline.

With that said.....

The front suspension has been moved forward 7". When we moved the suspension forward we had to relocate the engine backward the same amount. This required a custom K-member, modified stearing linkage, power stearin systems as well as a number of effected sub-systems. If I am not mistaken, these changes should not only improve the ride quality, but also shift the center of gravity improving lateral acceleration.

Yes we did graft the 03 chassis to the 65 body. But in doing so, we paid great attention to chassis stability. We reinforced the entire firewall cowl area with structural tube (one of the weakest areas in the SN95 chassis). We boxed the rear suspension mounting points (another weak area). We made sure when we added this structure that it all tied back to the reinforced rocker panels. The entire front and rear frame rails and reinforcing structure all tie in to two 1" x 6" tapered structural tubes located in between the inner rocker of the 03 and the outer rocker of the 65. We also reinforced the arrea just behind the front doors tying the rocker to the main structure of the "C" pillars (one of the weak areas of the 65 fastback).

All of these modifications made the chassis extreamly rigid and eliminated the need for sub-frame connectors. For example, if you want to change the rear tire on the car, you can jack the car up with the jack located just behind the front wheel. The whole side of the car goes up with minimal deflection.

All of these changes to the structure and the car is expected to weight in at about 250 lbs less than the original 03. On top of the the weight we did add is located very low in the chassis which should also lower the cvars cehter of gravity.

The front track of the car has been modified reducing the track by 1.5". The stance of the car has been greatly altered from stock (1.75" drop at the rear and a 3" drop at the front). Custom fabricated hood, fender flares, front valance, altered quarters, custom drip rails, custom interior, modified intake and exhaust, state of the art sound and seats, coil over front and rear suspension, altered suspension geometry, the list goes on and on.

All of this done in an attempt to make the car look as much like a factory product as possible.

If you look at the car and all you see are a few cosmetic changes, then we will have achieved every goal we set for ourselves at the start of the project.

[TonyL]

coil over front and rear suspension, altered suspension geometry,

I stand corrected. I still lean on the basic principle that the car is in fact, a modified 03 mustang. Not vice versa.

And there in lies the basic difference between a pro-touring car, and a late model street machine.

where that division lies is almost impossible to figure out though it seems. What are you registering the car as?

[Al Moreno]

Hi Bob, my hat off to you.I have never seen somebody handle criticisms so tactfully. You should run for president. You have my vote.

[SN65]

I stand corrected. I still lean on the basic principle that the car is in fact, a modified 03 mustang. Not vice versa.

And there in lies the basic difference between a pro-touring car, and a late model street machine.

where that division lies is almost impossible to figure out though it seems. What are you registering the car as?
Hi Tony,

Can I tell my friends that we have kissed and made up? :-)

(That was a tonge in cheek comment BTW).

To answer your question, we are going to register the car as a 65.

As far as Pro-Touring goes, what if we had graffted a twin "A" arm front suspention and an independant rear to the 65 chassis. What if we had installed a 03 Cobra engine into the 65. What if we had done all that and then incorprated the 03 dash in the car. What if then we modified the fneders, quarters and hood to fit. What if we also installed the traction control, anti-lock break module. How about if we modified the 65 structure to incorporate current crumple zones. Add to that all the updated electrical systems, etc...

Would that be a pro touring car?

I think that the issue here is simantics. It is easy to look at this car and say "all they did was put a 65 body on an 03 chassis" and in the simlest terms they would be right. But it is when you get into all the details and ramifications that the project becomes more than a simple grafting job. If you want to see just how different this project is, follow this link

http://eleanor.pro3i.com/showthread.php?t=536634&page=13

Go to post 310 and look at the pictures.

What you will see is the typical results of "grafting" an 03 IRS into an early mustang followed by a picture of the SN65 from the same angle. The first car is one that was built by ReenMachine. I have the highest regard for his tallents. He is one of the nicest people I have met on the net. He is very talented as you will see if you read a part of the thread. Also, he was in fact a NASA engineer before returning to his favorite pastime of building cars.

He is working on resolving the geometry issues, but this is the typical result of those who attemt this modification. I tend to think that our approch was a creative way of solving all these types off issues.

That said, I tend to think of this car as a pro-touring car. In fact, I think that a lot of our goals in a pro-street car are very similar, it is just the way we achieve those goals that differ.

[SN65]

Hi Bob, my hat off to you.I have never seen somebody handle criticisms so tactfully. You should run for president. You have my vote.
Hi Al,

President Bob. Hummmm It kind of has a ring to it. :-)

[Travis B]

I would call it protouring...

"It stops steers and accelerates better than stock"(steve c)
It's protouring...........

[Steve Chryssos]

Me too.

Thanks for considering my thoughts, Bob. I'll be sure to look you guys up next time I'm in Illinois.

As for your rebuttal, note that my comments do not pertain to the concept or the execution for the most part. I just think that car needs some love from an old fashioned, no-nonsense mechanic.

What are you guys doing for wheels and tires? Ford FR500's or BBS RK's with custom backspacing/offset would be perfect.

[SN65]

Me too.

Thanks for considering my thoughts, Bob. I'll be sure to look you guys up next time I'm in Illinois.

As for your rebuttal, note that my comments do not pertain to the concept or the execution for the most part. I just think that car needs some love from an old fashioned, no-nonsense mechanic.

What are you guys doing for wheels and tires? Ford FR500's or BBS RK's with custom backspacing/offset would be perfect.
Hi SF,

It would be great if you could stop by. I look forward to being able to meet you face to face.

As far as the "old fashioned, no-nonsense mechanic" goes, I am afraid they are few and far between. I am not really a mechanic. My background is in designing heavy industrial wastewater treatment equipment. I think that that has influenced a lot of the things that we have done with this car.

Wheels and tires.... You probably won't like this but, we are going to go with the 03 cobra rims. We are still debaiting chrome or polished. Also we wont be able to determine the correct offset until after we have the car aligned. Right now the adjustments are all to their full out possition. It will be interesting to see exactly where the tires end up when aligned. I think that we are going to go with Perrelli P Corsa <sp> tires, but that is still open to debait. There are a lot of really great tires available today. It is hard to pick when their are so many choices.

Catch you later.

[SN65]

Hi All,

Today the glass goes in. I am really pumped. This is the last major item prior to installing the interior. Wish us luck.

Bob

PS: All this talk of the "Ridler" has been fun. But the Ridler is not something you actually enter, but something for which you are chosen. I hope that all the comments, both yea and nea, have given everybody food for thought. That maybe some of the comments here will inspire you to look at your car project a little differently than the current status quo. Be different, take chances. Just because everyone else does things in a certain way, does not mean that you have to.

[71FirebirdLS1]

I stand corrected. I still lean on the basic principle that the car is in fact, a modified 03 mustang. Not vice versa.

And there in lies the basic difference between a pro-touring car, and a late model street machine.

where that division lies is almost impossible to figure out though it seems. What are you registering the car as?

I swear when I first joined this site, that there was a sticky thread that told newbies that there really aren't any clear definitions of what a pro-touring car really is since there would be so many newbies asking... but I can't find that thread and this would have been good timing and funny (atleast I did) to give you a link to that thread.:hah:


Hey SN65, are you guys going to do a final install of the dash and wiring hardness first before doing the glass? Maybe you already said, but I didn't catch it. That's what we plan on doing anyway, is installing the dash first b/c of the way we have it set-up.

[TonyL]

I swear when I first joined this site, that there was a sticky thread that told newbies that there really aren't any clear definitions of what a pro-touring car really is since there would be so many newbies asking... but I can't find that thread and this would have been good timing and funny (atleast I did) to give you a link to that thread.


heres a quote from the thread you speak of.
Pro-Touring: A classic muscle car with upgraded and updated suspension components, brake system, drive train and aesthetics, including many of the creature comforts of a new car. Built to function as well or better than some of today’s best performance cars. Pro-Touring cars are built to be driven. Driven on the street, on the race track, on the drag strip, through cones at an auto-cross, no matter the setting, pro-touring cars are meant to be driven. Generally speaking, late model cars are not considered pro-touring due to their factory designed suspension and brake packages.

I stand by my statement that this car is more "late model" than classic mustang. It's a new mustang, whos suspension has been slightly modified to make it fit under an old mustang's skin. its a new mustang at heart.

[SN65]

SNIP...

Hey SN65, are you guys going to do a final install of the dash and wiring hardness first before doing the glass? Maybe you already said, but I didn't catch it. That's what we plan on doing anyway, is installing the dash first b/c of the way we have it set-up.
Hi 71,

The dash and wiring harness is already installed complete. There was no way we were going to get the dash installed after the glass was in.

Good luck with your project.

If I could ask you a question, how similar do you view our projects? It appears to me that you are trying to achieve the same end results as we are. Have you been able to maintain all the systems from the late model in your build?

[SN65]

heres a quote from the thread you speak of.
Pro-Touring: A classic muscle car with upgraded and updated suspension components, brake system, drive train and aesthetics, including many of the creature comforts of a new car. Built to function as well or better than some of today’s best performance cars. Pro-Touring cars are built to be driven. Driven on the street, on the race track, on the drag strip, through cones at an auto-cross, no matter the setting, pro-touring cars are meant to be driven. Generally speaking, late model cars are not considered pro-touring due to their factory designed suspension and brake packages.

I stand by my statement that this car is more "late model" than classic mustang. It's a new mustang, whos suspension has been slightly modified to make it fit under an old mustang's skin. its a new mustang at heart.
Hi Tony,

You make a very good point. I guess you could look at our project and say that it is in fact a modified 03 Cobra. I believe we could, if we wanted to, register it as an 03.

But...

The end results I have achieved are the same goals that every one here aspires to. We all want "A classic muscle car with upgraded and updated suspension components, brake systems, drive train and aesthetics, including many of the creature comforts of a new car. Built to function as well or better than some of today’s best performance cars"

If you do all the things described above do you not have a late model car that looks like a classic?

Look at the following photo.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

What do you see? I see my version of the ultimate pro-touring car. A 65 fastback with every possible upgrade imaginable. And I am not done yet.

[TonyL]

I see the fusion of two cars. ( a very nice fusion btw) It's where that line is drawn in the mind between how much "adding on" of the new car parts to the old car, is allowed before the old car becomes more donor car than the car your adding the donor parts to.

Thats the only problem i have with it, if you could call it a problem at all. Its still executed very well and is a testement to how open minded this facet of our hobby is. The definition of what we call "Pro-touring" changes with every car built. The possibilies are truely endless. Thanks for showing yet another way to save and improve a classic car. One more for our team, I say. Well done. And kudos to you for taking all the comments so well.

[71FirebirdLS1]

Hi 71,

The dash and wiring harness is already installed complete. There was no way we were going to get the dash installed after the glass was in.

Good luck with your project.

If I could ask you a question, how similar do you view our projects? It appears to me that you are trying to achieve the same end results as we are. Have you been able to maintain all the systems from the late model in your build?

Yeah, our cars are pretty similar except for a few things. I really liked the deep dish wheels that the new late-model cars don't have today. I guess if I didn't mind, it might have been easier just taking the body off the 71 and putting it on the stripped '01 TA. The suspension is different since you're using the 03. That kind of goes hand in hand to get the deep dish wheels and the 335 max tire size on my car. The '01 TA also has the 10 bolt, which is very weak. There's little stuff here and there... we both have the same ideas, just different preferences. I dig your mustang. Can't wait to see the video clip where you're lighting the tires up!

edit... also, about registering it as a 65, smog restrictions wouldn't apply. The restrictions where I live is lifted if the car is older than 25 years. hehehe. But... that doesn't mean that the sound restrictions are lifted. :banghead:

[SN65]

Yeah, our cars are pretty similar except for a few things. I really liked the deep dish wheels that the new late-model cars don't have today. I guess if I didn't mind, it might have been easier just taking the body off the 71 and putting it on the stripped '01 TA. The suspension is different since you're using the 03. That kind of goes hand in hand to get the deep dish wheels and the 335 max tire size on my car. The '01 TA also has the 10 bolt, which is very weak. There's little stuff here and there... we both have the same ideas, just different preferences. I dig your mustang. Can't wait to see the video clip where you're lighting the tires up!

edit... also, about registering it as a 65, smog restrictions wouldn't apply. The restrictions where I live is lifted if the car is older than 25 years. hehehe. But... that doesn't mean that the sound restrictions are lifted. :banghead:
Hi 71,

Interesting.... I really like the new / late model wheels. Maybe it is just because, on the SN65, all the lines are sharp and the sides of the car are so "flat" compaired to those of your FB. My eye likes to see things when they are similar. Just like engine bays. I like to see a simple color pallet with fittings, hoses, wires, etc. that all match.

As far as easier goes, I don't know if this was the easy route or not. I guess I will have to build another, retrofitting all the 03 mechanical into the 65 chassis, just to have a point of reference. :-)

I can tell you this much, nothing ever lined up. The 03 chassis has a factory tolerance of about plus or minus 3mm. The 65 body has a tolerance of plus or minus 1/2". Everything we did bodywise was a compromise of one or the other.

[SN65]

Hi All,

I am in desperate need of 65 fastback front and rear NOS window moldings.

Anyone have a clue??? I am getting desperate.

If I did not say it already, I am a bit desperate. :-)

Bob

[SN65]

Has anyone seen this car.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/even...t.asp?id=181501 (http://www.barrett-jackson.com/events/scottsdale/vehicles/cardetail_list.asp?id=181501)

If so, do you have an opinion? The car sold for 130K. I did not see the auction, but I heard that the anouncers had a few issues with the project. Did anyone hear their comments? I would have approched some of the styling issues a bit differently, but overall, it looks pretty good. At least in the photos.

[Jagarang]

Link doesn't work for me? :dunno:

[Travis B]

Link doesn't work for me? :dunno:


me either



that car has been out for awhile it appeared to be a quality build!

[TonyL]

I fixed it.. Link works now

[SN65]

I fixed it.. Link works now
Thanks Tony.

[DJ Mabe]

Wasn't that car for sale on ebay a while back?

[Bob Johnson]

Hi all,

It appeares that I have struck a nerve with a few people. I appologize if I have offended anyone in anyway.

The whole thing, me publishing the build on the internet, sort of evolved to what it is today. When I started (Nov 04) it was a way of seaking out help and advice. I started on Stangnet and SVT forums. One for feedback from "classic" entusiests and the other for input from the Cobra side of the hobby. People asked questions, gave advice and input and helped with a lot of the design decisions.

As time went on, I stumbled on other forums that were already talking about the project, so I joined in. Over time, other people stumbled across these threads and asked me if i would post the "updates" on forums that they frequented.

I did these things and only continued to post when people partisipated in the thread. If no one asked questions or made recommendations or asked for more updates, I stopped posting.

I only started up the SN65 website at the end of August. At that time, I still maintained the threads I was currently partisipating in. That number is 10. And while I do post the same info to all 10 forums, the comments and responces are all different. Also, I make an honest effort to respond to all the questions and comments. I am not just posting an update to this site and not responding to anyone who responds.

As far as the number of forums out there with threads on this project, there are well over 365. At least that is the number of individual referers my website lists. Also, a search on the internet for SN65 mustang or SN65 Cobra generates hundreds of sites. Even if I sat at my computer all day, I could not support all these threads.

The comment about the Ring Brothers. If you tock that as a put down on their work, you must have misunderstood my comment. I love thier work. I still have the article about their current ride on my coffee table. That last comment about real factoy.... was a tonge in cheek comment. I look forward to the day I can meet them face to face.
better to meet them face to face instead of your car vs their car in show competition..you would enjoy the face to face meeting as they are great guys..car vs car..I don't think you would like the outcome..when have you been to Goodguys Columbus, Indy, etc?? Bobby Alloways Challenger, Roy Pigfords Nova, Ring's Mustang, Scott's Camaro, steve Cook's Yellow 69 Camaro..as far as winning the Ridler..no comment..cars winning the Ridler have had 10,000 plus hours and 7 figure build costs.. a good friend of mine was in the great 8 at Ridler..won the big Texas show that equates to the Ridler West..took his car to Columbus..not even a pity pick..guys like Alan Johnson, Troy Trepanier, Fat Mans,Kyle Tucker, Johnny Hunkins, Eric Peratt,Bobby Alloway, etc do the judging..they are guys that see straight thru fiberglass extensions, bondo, etc. 03 Cobra wheels are a definite no no if you plan on doing well at Goodguys..

[SN65]

better to meet them face to face instead of your car vs their car in show competition..you would enjoy the face to face meeting as they are great guys..car vs car..I don't think you would like the outcome..when have you been to Goodguys Columbus, Indy, etc?? Bobby Alloways Challenger, Roy Pigfords Nova, Ring's Mustang, Scott's Camaro, steve Cook's Yellow 69 Camaro..as far as winning the Ridler..no comment..cars winning the Ridler have had 10,000 plus hours and 7 figure build costs.. a good friend of mine was in the great 8 at Ridler..won the big Texas show that equates to the Ridler West..took his car to Columbus..not even a pity pick..guys like Alan Johnson, Troy Trepanier, Fat Mans,Kyle Tucker, Johnny Hunkins, Eric Peratt,Bobby Alloway, etc do the judging..they are guys that see straight thru fiberglass extensions, bondo, etc. 03 Cobra wheels are a definite no no if you plan on doing well at Goodguys..
Hi Bob,

Thank you for your input.

I do not mind the car verses car meetings. I realize that a great deal of what is involved is personal preference. What you want to see in a custome car may not neccissarily be what I want to see. If I ever get any consideration at one of these shows, I would feel very fortunate indeed.

With that said, the amount of money spent on a car should have nothing to do with winning any type of award.

I realize that we have as much a chance of competing for the Ridler, or SMOTY as the Cubs do of winning the world series. But, that does not mean that it can not happen and that they are not honerable goals for which to aspire. :-)

If there is one thing that I take exception to in your comment is the one about the wheels. What is wrong with 17" 03 Cobra wheels on this particular car? I already know the responce. They are not big enough. Do you really think that this car would look better with 18's and 20's. I really don't think so.

Did you see the feature in PHR of the 76 Cuda. That was a beautiful car on every level (as far as I could tell from the photos). But, IMHO, that car would not have looked better with larger rims and rubber band rubber. On some cars it works and others it doesn't.

In closing, I for one cannot, and do not wish to, compare myself to the likes of Bobby Alloway, Roy Pigford, the Ring brothers, Steve Cook, etc.... All I have to go on is photos I have seen in magazines. On the other hand, as far as our car is concerned, all you have to go on are the photos you have seen on the net. As we both know, photos can be decieving. In person, our car could actually be much worse than what you see on the net. Hopefully, that is not the case.

[J2speedandcustom]

With that said, the amount of money spent on a car should have nothing to do with winning any type of award.

If there is one thing that I take exception to in your comment is the one about the wheels. What is wrong with 17" 03 Cobra wheels on this particular car? I already know the responce. They are not big enough. Do you really think that this car would look better with 18's and 20's. I really don't think so.


SN65 nice car! I like it alot.:twothumbs

My $.02 on awards and shows is money = time and the crazy stuff you have to do to be different and unique takes time.
Goodguys awards in my mind are a luck of the draw. Each judge picks what they like and usually only stick to those types of cars.

As for the wheels and show's most judges want to see something different, they have seen 17's and 18's for years so to catch an eye it has to be unique. Fitting a wheel that in theory shouldn't fit and making it work correctly is the ticket. For example Bob's cuda - the front tires are way forward from original and required lots of body mods to get the stance and fitment correct. That all equals time and money. So if you want to go trophy hunting bring the correct weapons for the job. :machine:

[BADVELLE]

CAN WE PLEASE SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN NOW?? IF I WANT AN UPDATE TO THE STORY, I WILL VISIT THE WEBSITE. I AM TIRED OF SEEING THIS THREAD AT THE TOP OF THIS FORUM EVERYDAY, IT HAS WENT ON LONG ENOUGH!

AM I OUT OF LINE OR ARE THERE OTHERS THAT FEEL THE SAME?!? IF I AM THE ONLY ONE, WELL THEN.... :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon: !
HA, HA, HA!!!!

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your input.

I do not mind the car verses car meetings. I realize that a great deal of what is involved is personal preference. What you want to see in a custome car may not neccissarily be what I want to see. If I ever get any consideration at one of these shows, I would feel very fortunate indeed.

With that said, the amount of money spent on a car should have nothing to do with winning any type of award.

I realize that we have as much a chance of competing for the Ridler, or SMOTY as the Cubs do of winning the world series. But, that does not mean that it can not happen and that they are not honerable goals for which to aspire. :-)

If there is one thing that I take exception to in your comment is the one about the wheels. What is wrong with 17" 03 Cobra wheels on this particular car? I already know the responce. They are not big enough. Do you really think that this car would look better with 18's and 20's. I really don't think so.

Did you see the feature in PHR of the 76 Cuda. That was a beautiful car on every level (as far as I could tell from the photos). But, IMHO, that car would not have looked better with larger rims and rubber band rubber. On some cars it works and others it doesn't.

In closing, I for one cannot, and do not wish to, compare myself to the likes of Bobby Alloway, Roy Pigford, the Ring brothers, Steve Cook, etc.... All I have to go on is photos I have seen in magazines. On the other hand, as far as our car is concerned, all you have to go on are the photos you have seen on the net. As we both know, photos can be decieving. In person, our car could actually be much worse than what you see on the net. Hopefully, that is not the case.
I know the guys on here think 20" and larger wheels are taboo..I agree that the 22's on my Cudawould be too big..but i want a 29" or so tall tire on the rear of the Cuda so it won't look empty like the Motion Camaro did in the rear wheelwell. If you put a 17" or 18" wheel, then put a 40 series tire to get the diameter you need, I still say you're better off with a larger rim. They don't have many if any 40 series tires that are speed rated over 200MPH. We know what we want, but if no one makes it what do you do. The tire wheel combo works on my Cuda..it's works on the Porsche Carerra GT...You're not going to save that much if any weight by putting a tall tire on a short rim than you are a lower aspect ratio tire on a big rim. I will probably be running 18's in competition..if they clear my brakes OK. but I'm not as concerned with the "look" when it's competing..we will be running a shorter tire to keep the weight down and make it handle properly..Maybe some of your gurus could advise me on how to run a 18" wheel and still fill the wheelwell properly. I don't see anything wrong with the stock Mustang rims..just don't think the judges are going to be impressed..I've got a friend building a mustang like yours down here..We will get you some pix of it soon..it's going to be cool. It's a celebrity's car and he doesn't wan t it seen yet

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your input.

I do not mind the car verses car meetings. I realize that a great deal of what is involved is personal preference. What you want to see in a custome car may not neccissarily be what I want to see. If I ever get any consideration at one of these shows, I would feel very fortunate indeed.

With that said, the amount of money spent on a car should have nothing to do with winning any type of award.

I realize that we have as much a chance of competing for the Ridler, or SMOTY as the Cubs do of winning the world series. But, that does not mean that it can not happen and that they are not honerable goals for which to aspire. :-)

If there is one thing that I take exception to in your comment is the one about the wheels. What is wrong with 17" 03 Cobra wheels on this particular car? I already know the responce. They are not big enough. Do you really think that this car would look better with 18's and 20's. I really don't think so.

Did you see the feature in PHR of the 76 Cuda. That was a beautiful car on every level (as far as I could tell from the photos). But, IMHO, that car would not have looked better with larger rims and rubber band rubber. On some cars it works and others it doesn't.

In closing, I for one cannot, and do not wish to, compare myself to the likes of Bobby Alloway, Roy Pigford, the Ring brothers, Steve Cook, etc.... All I have to go on is photos I have seen in magazines. On the other hand, as far as our car is concerned, all you have to go on are the photos you have seen on the net. As we both know, photos can be decieving. In person, our car could actually be much worse than what you see on the net. Hopefully, that is not the case.
you're going to have to compare yourself to these guys if you aspire for SMOY/Ridler/etc. You're going to have to beat them..the cobra wheels look fine on the car..but they aren't going to put you in the circle.. they look like they are sticking out too far..do have a spacer behind them? you need to go to Columbus and test the water..it isn't so easy to get in that circle..believe me..Ring bros. have been in there 2 out of the last few years..they will be in there again..take it to the bank..hope you can too..but realistically, what I see you've done is not going to get you in the circle..keep working and improving..you'll get there..Rome wasn't built in a day.

[SN65]

I know the guys on here think 20" and larger wheels are taboo..I agree that the 22's on my Cudawould be too big..but i want a 29" or so tall tire on the rear of the Cuda so it won't look empty like the Motion Camaro did in the rear wheelwell. If you put a 17" or 18" wheel, then put a 40 series tire to get the diameter you need, I still say you're better off with a larger rim. They don't have many if any 40 series tires that are speed rated over 200MPH. We know what we want, but if no one makes it what do you do. The tire wheel combo works on my Cuda..it's works on the Porsche Carerra GT...You're not going to save that much if any weight by putting a tall tire on a short rim than you are a lower aspect ratio tire on a big rim. I will probably be running 18's in competition..if they clear my brakes OK. but I'm not as concerned with the "look" when it's competing..we will be running a shorter tire to keep the weight down and make it handle properly..Maybe some of your gurus could advise me on how to run a 18" wheel and still fill the wheelwell properly. I don't see anything wrong with the stock Mustang rims..just don't think the judges are going to be impressed..I've got a friend building a mustang like yours down here..We will get you some pix of it soon..it's going to be cool. It's a celebrity's car and he doesn't wan t it seen yet
Hi Bob,

I agree with you completely. :-)

Yes the tire combo you describe does work well on your Cuda. Also the Porsche. Also on the GTO featured in a recent PHR. It has more to do with the overall size of the vhehical and the size and proportion of the wheel wells.

I am of the opinion that your first consideration is to the overall car, not what wheels and tires you want to use. On the type of cars I like to build (early stangs, particularly 65 fastbacks, if you had not noticed) tires of the size that work on your Cuda would tend to look a bit cartoonish.

I look forward to the day where we can meet and debate this topic in depth. Hopefully over a couple of beers.

Also, I am really looking forward to seeing the photos of your friends car. It sounds like a cool project.

[SN65]

you're going to have to compare yourself to these guys if you aspire for SMOY/Ridler/etc. You're going to have to beat them..the cobra wheels look fine on the car..but they aren't going to put you in the circle.. they look like they are sticking out too far..do have a spacer behind them? you need to go to Columbus and test the water..it isn't so easy to get in that circle..believe me..Ring bros. have been in there 2 out of the last few years..they will be in there again..take it to the bank..hope you can too..but realistically, what I see you've done is not going to get you in the circle..keep working and improving..you'll get there..Rome wasn't built in a day.
Hi Bob,

All of the current adjustments are full out. The tires will tuck in a bit when we have both the front and rear aligned.

As far as car shows go, I am there for the good times. There is nothing I enjoy more than talking about cars with car people. I tend to walk to my own drum. If that earns me some recognition, fine. If not, I will still be a happy camper. My vision drives me toward factory emulation. If people who look at the SN65, or any car I build for that matter, and get the impression that it was built by the factory, I will be very happy indeed.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Bob,

I think the point of keeping the 17" wheels for you is to maintain the cars integrity as a "factory" style hot rod.

I think the point most here are trying to make is not that the size of the wheels is too small, but rather factory wheels are just too, well--factory. Most '03 Cobra guys change their wheels, in fact most late model guys do--wheels were one of the first few things I swapped on my SS. The wheels make the cars appearance just as much as paint and other exterior mods, if not more. It's also one of the most identifiable aspects for a given car.

I think there is a clear compromise here if you want to maintain the car's integrity as a factory style hot rod, but still maintain some amount of custom / creative flair. Run the optional '03 Cobra 10 spoke wheels (the anthracite ones). This way they'll still be running factory wheels, but they will be far less noticeable as factory wheels by the average enthusiast since they were optional equipment. JMO.

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

I agree with you completely. :-)

Yes the tire combo you describe does work well on your Cuda. Also the Porsche. Also on the GTO featured in a recent PHR. It has more to do with the overall size of the vhehical and the size and proportion of the wheel wells.

I am of the opinion that your first consideration is to the overall car, not what wheels and tires you want to use. On the type of cars I like to build (early stangs, particularly 65 fastbacks, if you had not noticed) tires of the size that work on your Cuda would tend to look a bit cartoonish.

I look forward to the day where we can meet and debate this topic in depth. Hopefully over a couple of beers.

Also, I am really looking forward to seeing the photos of your friends car. It sounds like a cool project.
btw I have the last car Doan Spencer was working on when he died..65 GT 350 Shelby Mustang..It will be my next project..he had set it up for a Boss 429..Jerico Trans..I'm wanting to put an all aluminum SOHC in it with a 5 speed Jerico..The guy that was working with Doan has cancer and when and if he gets better, he's supposed to come over and show us how they were going to do the car. It has a set of 3 piece Doan Spencer 16" wheels on it.. supposedly only 4 or 5 sets in the world..I've got 2 sets..one set is on a 57 Chevy 2 door wagon..pro street Spencers on the rear and skinny Spencers on the front and an all aluminum Spencer rear end..They were going to use the engine as the stress member in the front of the mustang..no cross member..shock towers were removed and made to look like original but only stick out about 1/2 inch..He's a legend on the west coast..

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

All of the current adjustments are full out. The tires will tuck in a bit when we have both the front and rear aligned.

As far as car shows go, I am there for the good times. There is nothing I enjoy more than talking about cars with car people. I tend to walk to my own drum. If that earns me some recognition, fine. If not, I will still be a happy camper. My vision drives me toward factory emulation. If people who look at the SN65, or any car I build for that matter, and get the impression that it was built by the factory, I will be very happy indeed.
great.. if you can keep that attitude you'll be OK..but the judges aren't dancing to that same tune..if that doesn't bother you, you will be fine..most guys get ill when judges don't share their same vision.. if Alan, or Alloway saw a car with fiberglass flares, they would blackball it on the spot..they think you should make a whole new quarter and flare it in steel..no shortcuts with these guys..if you saw what went into the building of that carbon fiber front end, you would croak..raw clear coated carbon ain't very forgiving..

[SN65]

Bob,

I think the point of keeping the 17" wheels for you is to maintain the cars integrity as a "factory" style hot rod.

I think the point most here are trying to make is not that the size of the wheels is too small, but rather factory wheels are just too, well--factory. Most '03 Cobra guys change their wheels, in fact most late model guys do--wheels were one of the first few things I swapped on my SS. The wheels make the cars appearance just as much as paint and other exterior mods, if not more. It's also one of the most identifiable aspects for a given car.

I think there is a clear compromise here if you want to maintain the car's integrity as a factory style hot rod, but still maintain some amount of custom / creative flair. Run the optional '03 Cobra 10 spoke wheels (the anthracite ones). This way they'll still be running factory wheels, but they will be far less noticeable as factory wheels by the average enthusiast since they were optional equipment. JMO.
Hi Ralph,

Thank you for your input.

Your recommendation of running the 10th annaversery wheels is an interesting alternative that we actually never considered. I will have to photo chop something up and see the results. I am going to have to wait on ordering the wheels until after the car is aligned. The factory specks should be just fine, but I want to confirm the correct offset and backspacing.

Interesting idea. I will have to run this one past Wayne ltoday and see what he thinks.

Thanks again.

[SN65]

SNIP...

They were going to use the engine as the stress member in the front of the mustang..no cross member..

SNIP...
Hi Bob,

Sounds like an interesting project.

When using the engine as the cross member, are they actually talking about using a plate type motor mount that solid mounts the engine to the chassis and also acts as a crossmenber?

[SN65]

great.. if you can keep that attitude you'll be OK..but the judges aren't dancing to that same tune..if that doesn't bother you, you will be fine..most guys get ill when judges don't share their same vision.. if Alan, or Alloway saw a car with fiberglass flares, they would blackball it on the spot..they think you should make a whole new quarter and flare it in steel..no shortcuts with these guys..if you saw what went into the building of that carbon fiber front end, you would croak..raw clear coated carbon ain't very forgiving..

Hi Bob,

Keeping this attitude is easy for me. I am a pretty care free guy, most of the time. All I want is a little fun in my life and a little life in my fun. :-)

I am assuming that you are from the left coast. I rarely get to go to California. But if I do, it would be nice to make your acquaintance. Do you ever get to the Chicago area?

As far as frp goes, I think it has a bad rap. Material is material. FRP, carbon fiber, Kevlar, hot rolled - cold rolled - ASTM A36 steel, pot metal, aluminum, poly, UHMW, etc...

It is not the material as much as how you use it. For example....

What if I were to tell you that I can make an FRP fender that was both lighter and stronger than a similar carbon fiber piece. The fender could be bolted up directly to any existing car and have the fit and finish of an original steel stamping.

Would that item still be "blackballed" by the powers that be?

As far as steel fab verses FRP fab, they are both different disciplines. I own a business the designs and builds industrial wastewater treatment equipment. I have seen FRP fabrications of higher quality and greater durability than any steel. Granted, if you were in a boat, floating in a wastewater solution with a pH less than 2, you would pick FRP over steel in a heartbeat. Also, the people who make the typical "car" parts use the least expensive isothalic resin and chopped glass that they can find. Use a high quality vinyl ester (or other specialty) resin with a quality woven glass mat and you end up with totally different results.

Metal fabrication is a fantastic discipline. Some of the things some people can do with steel are truly magical. I too am amazed by some of the things some people can do with steel. But when you look at a car, it should be the end results and the way the materials are used that matter, not the fact that one material was picked over another for a specific application.

I am sorry if I seem to be beating a dead horse, but I really have a problem when ideas like the use of FRP flares are universally dismissed. I believe that these types of blanket thoughts have a negative impact on our hobby. I always question the status-que. I have a way of shaking the tree and approaching things differently than most. Some of the time I rub people the wrong way. If that is the case, so be it. But, I believe that people should not be opposed to change but embrase it.

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

Keeping this attitude is easy for me. I am a pretty care free guy, most of the time. All I want is a little fun in my life and a little life in my fun. :-)

I am assuming that you are from the left coast. I rarely get to go to California. But if I do, it would be nice to make your acquaintance. Do you ever get to the Chicago area?

As far as frp goes, I think it has a bad rap. Material is material. FRP, carbon fiber, Kevlar, hot rolled - cold rolled - ASTM A36 steel, pot metal, aluminum, poly, UHMW, etc...

It is not the material as much as how you use it. For example....

What if I were to tell you that I can make an FRP fender that was both lighter and stronger than a similar carbon fiber piece. The fender could be bolted up directly to any existing car and have the fit and finish of an original steel stamping.

Would that item still be "blackballed" by the powers that be?

As far as steel fab verses FRP fab, they are both different disciplines. I own a business the designs and builds industrial wastewater treatment equipment. I have seen FRP fabrications of higher quality and greater durability than any steel. Granted, if you were in a boat, floating in a wastewater solution with a pH less than 2, you would pick FRP over steel in a heartbeat. Also, the people who make the typical "car" parts use the least expensive isothalic resin and chopped glass that they can find. Use a high quality vinyl ester (or other specialty) resin with a quality woven glass mat and you end up with totally different results.

Metal fabrication is a fantastic discipline. Some of the things some people can do with steel are truly magical. I too am amazed by some of the things some people can do with steel. But when you look at a car, it should be the end results and the way the materials are used that matter, not the fact that one material was picked over another for a specific application.

I am sorry if I seem to be beating a dead horse, but I really have a problem when ideas like the use of FRP flares are universally dismissed. I believe that these types of blanket thoughts have a negative impact on our hobby. I always question the status-que. I have a way of shaking the tree and approaching things differently than most. Some of the time I rub people the wrong way. If that is the case, so be it. But, I believe that people should not be opposed to change but embrase it.
I'm from Georgia..what I'm referring to is to take glass and bond it a non compatible metal piece..sooner or later something bad is going to happen..it's just not an accepted practice with guys that build high quality stuff..We didn't bond the carbon on the Cuda..the whole front end is carbon..we overlayed the piece from the windshield to the back of the roof ..I'm not telling you how to do your car, I'm just telling your thought process isn't going to get you in the circle..

[SN65]

I'm from Georgia..what I'm referring to is to take glass and bond it a non compatible metal piece..sooner or later something bad is going to happen..it's just not an accepted practice with guys that build high quality stuff..We didn't bond the carbon on the Cuda..the whole front end is carbon..we overlayed the piece from the windshield to the back of the roof ..I'm not telling you how to do your car, I'm just telling your thought process isn't going to get you in the circle..
Hi Bob,

Interesting. You did all the metal work on the front end and then used those items as plugs to create molds and then you pulled the CF fenders, hood, etc...

[gmachine68]

you take fiberglass, or frp, or tpm, you name it, it moves way more when heated (in the sun) then the metal object it is glued too, unless you get lucky it will ghost line , meaning you will see the line where it mets the car, because it is expanding more then the metal, now it will not crack as the materials today are real good and can move around alot without cracking, BUT you will see the line, only at certain angles, i have molded body kits to cars, roof scoops etc, and mnost end up ghost lining after 1 year or so, i called usc, fusor, sem none reccomend or warranty this procedure, because of the expansion contraction issue.
cars paint will easily reach 225 in the sun even 300 in the desert. goodluck, i hope for your sake it does not ghost line

[SN65]

Hi Banned,

I understand the possible ramifications. And if we were going to stop at this point, I would be concerned. But, the work we have done to this point is all prototypical. After the SN65 is complete (pretty close now) we are going to duplicate the fenders, hood, valance, doors, etc... in a proprietary composit laminate. We have been working with some interesting materials and fab processes at the wastewater treatment company (very strong and lightweight composits) and if they survive the accellerated life tests, I will reproduce and replace all the parts and panels we have created. The only real problem will be when we have to mold the body. The process should be fine, but the mold will be somewhat complex.

We should know the results of our study in about 3 to 6 months. If things do not work out, we will proceed with the molding process, but we will do it in a more traditional method.

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

Interesting. You did all the metal work on the front end and then used those items as plugs to create molds and then you pulled the CF fenders, hood, etc...
sectioned the front end..clay modeled the scoops and vents out of clay on the hood and fenders of the car..got it all as slick as a baby's butt..built a mold..pulled a fiberglass piece..brought it in and fitted everything to car..made necessary adjustments for fit and finish..told 3 G services what changes need to be made to mold..polished the mold..pulled the carbon fiber pieces..using raw clear coated carbon necessitates near perfection in the mold and the laying of the carbon fiber..

[SN65]

sectioned the front end..clay modeled the scoops and vents out of clay on the hood and fenders of the car..got it all as slick as a baby's butt..built a mold..pulled a fiberglass piece..brought it in and fitted everything to car..made necessary adjustments for fit and finish..told 3 G services what changes need to be made to mold..polished the mold..pulled the carbon fiber pieces..using raw clear coated carbon necessitates near perfection in the mold and the laying of the carbon fiber..
Hi Bob,

That is to cool!!!! I found myself looking at your car a lot this weekend trying to figure out just how you went about certain things. Well done all the way round. You should be very proud.

I understand that you are going for the 0-200-0 record next year. I wish you luck.

Are you going to be driving? The fastest I have ever been is about 130 and that was kind of nerve racking. But then again, most of that was probably do to the car I was driving at the time. :-)

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

That is to cool!!!! I found myself looking at your car a lot this weekend trying to figure out just how you went about certain things. Well done all the way round. You should be very proud.

I understand that you are going for the 0-200-0 record next year. I wish you luck.

Are you going to be driving? The fastest I have ever been is about 130 and that was kind of nerve racking. But then again, most of that was probably do to the car I was driving at the time. :-)
I'm going to drive it at Maxton..probably not in the 0-200-0 or road course..60 years and 250 lb isn't a good combo... glad you like it..Alan out did himself this time.. :3gears:

[Chris C.]

I'll admit I came here via a web board posting SN65 project to Sn65.com to here. I have been here before when pro-touring first took off. Wow this place has came a long way.

Back to the topic.

Its an impressive build and from a design stand point very nice. During this SN-65 build a good friend dave has been building his car for awhile. Dave owns DVS restorations which was mentioned in the link with the '03 IRS. Dave started out with a 68 mustang and found on another project that the 03 IRS was a perfect width. Then when he added the kmember and even all the electronics it was a truly amazing vehicle. You can see the car in mustang monthlys febuary issue, its on the cover. http://mustangmonthly.com/toc/mump_0602_cover.jpg

Now I noticed people mention the SN65 is not a pro-touring car. Now as you can tell I just registered and when you register, you get to read this.




Thank you for visiting our special corner of the Internet. The Pro-Touring.com / G-Machines.com forum is a source of entertainment and information for a specific segment of hot rodding:

Pro-Touring.com cars (also known as g-Machines) are hot rods that are modified for improved handling, and braking, as well as acceleration. "Modified" is the key element here. A Ferrari 456GT is a well-rounded performance vehicle, but someone else made it that way. So where‘s the fun in that? Vehicle specs and capabilities are important. But just as important -- Pro-Touring.com members are modifying these vehicles to achieve these goals. And it’s the members that make Pro-Touring.com great.

That seems to be the closest thing to a consensus. While every member has his or her own interpretation of a pro-touring car, all of these cars are upgraded for well-rounded performance.

Some cars are more technologically advanced than others. (i.e. fuel injection and computers) -Some cars are more comfortable than others. (i.e. air conditioning and cup holders) -Some cars are more race-inspired than others. (i.e. roll cage and safety harnesses)

We don’t impose any limitations on vehicle make, model or year, but for the most part, members are building muscle cars. We’ve got a few sports cars and trucks, too. You don’t even need to own a car.

RULES OF CONDUCT:

Pro-Touring.com / G-Machines.com has a great reputation for maintaining a positive, helpful atmosphere. So far, the members have done an excellent job of maintaining that positive, helpful atmosphere. But the “club” is growing. As a result, we are incorporating some basic rules of conduct for our little Internet car club.

1). No off Topic Posts: This is not the place to ask questions about the faulty heater control valve in your Hyundai. Nor is this a forum for political rants, sports debates, personal problems or anything other than pro-touring cars. IF YOU GET OFF TOPIC YOUR THREAD WILL BE CLOSED. IF YOU MAKE A HABIT OF IT, YOU WILL BE BANNED.

2).No Trash-Talkin': Flames and “trash-talking” are frowned upon. People come here to enjoy themselves and gather information. Before you go bouncing off the rev limiter, please re-read your posts and edit as necessary. Remember where you are before you hit “submit” or “reply”. You are entitled to your opinion and individuality, but at the same time: IF YOU POST FLAMES OR “TRASH-TALK” YOUR THREAD WILL BE CLOSED. IF YOU MAKE A HABIT OF IT, YOU WILL BE BANNED


I don't mean to do this in a negative, but if you clearly believe this is a latemodel mustang and not pro-touring car then you didn't read the fine print to get into this fine website.

As per the rules his car is pro-touring, matter of fact my '89 GT with that came stock with drum brakes/10" disc and 4 bolt lugs, and 15" wheels is also pro-touring. I upgraded to 18" wheels, Disc brakes with 13" rotors, Panhard bar, Torque arm, front suspension moved forward 2". 306 balanced and blueprinted with hilborn fuel injection converted to electronic using factory computer piggy backed.

If you believe his car does not meet the Pro-touring title than you are very close minded. Which makes this sound more like a plastic hotrod with a smallblock chevy board that comes with two folding chairs.

Innovation, somthing old, somthing new, personal style, personal taste = tooduh!

Well I won't unpack in case I get shown the door.

[Bob Johnson]

I went to see the 65 Mustang fastback a friend of mine is building for a celebrity..doing somewhat like the sn65 is doing..it has the aluminum cobra motor..probably a 6 speed trans..the 05 straight axle mustang rear..a 05 unibody firewall and floorpan with the 65 grafted to it..unibody was strenghtened through the rocker area like a chassis..has crush zones in the chassis that are replacable in case of an accident..ABS and traction control..all the wiring, column, computer, airconditioning, heater etc out of the new Mustang..can take it to a Ford dealer and plug it into the computer to analyze a problem..car is widened with all new custom made quarters and fenders made 100% of STEEL..I think you guys will be duly impressed if this is your cup of tea...

[rockdogz]

..I think you guys will be duly impressed if this is your cup of tea...

:pics2:

[Bob Johnson]

:pics2:
The celebrity owner doesn't want it shown until it nears completion..he hasn't made his mind up on a few things just yet.. I'll get him to post pix soon...These guys are pretty cool..he does cars for a lot of professional athletes and rappers etc..very good fabricator..he was on Monster Garage once..

[SN65]

I went to see the 65 Mustang fastback a friend of mine is building for a celebrity..doing somewhat like the sn65 is doing..it has the aluminum cobra motor..probably a 6 speed trans..the 05 straight axle mustang rear..a 05 unibody firewall and floorpan with the 65 grafted to it..unibody was strenghtened through the rocker area like a chassis..has crush zones in the chassis that are replacable in case of an accident..ABS and traction control..all the wiring, column, computer, airconditioning, heater etc out of the new Mustang..can take it to a Ford dealer and plug it into the computer to analyze a problem..car is widened with all new custom made quarters and fenders made 100% of STEEL..I think you guys will be duly impressed if this is your cup of tea...
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the info. I for one am really anxious to see this one when complete.

OBTW, I got a big kick out of the "...new custom made quarters and fenders made 100% of STEEL" comment. I am ROTFLMAO!!!! You really know how to kick a guy when he is down. :-)

PS: Ask him how he is going to solve the issues with the windshield wiper assembly. And please don't tell me he is going to just leave them off.

[SN65]

The celebrity owner doesn't want it shown until it nears completion..he hasn't made his mind up on a few things just yet.. I'll get him to post pix soon...These guys are pretty cool..he does cars for a lot of professional athletes and rappers etc..very good fabricator..he was on Monster Garage once..
Hi Bob,

Not to be nosey or anything, but do you have an idea as to the final cost of the project when complete?

[SN65]

Hi all,

There is a short article about our build on the V8 TV website.

http://v8tv.truckworld.com/tenartic...aid=2455&sid=96

I got a kick out of this comment "We had to see it to believe it. Bob and Wayne Julian are a special breed of car builders... meticulous, creative, enthusiastic... and maybe a little crazy!"

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the info. I for one am really anxious to see this one when complete.

OBTW, I got a big kick out of the "...new custom made quarters and fenders made 100% of STEEL" comment. I am ROTFLMAO!!!! You really know how to kick a guy when he is down. :-)

PS: Ask him how he is going to solve the issues with the windshield wiper assembly. And please don't tell me he is going to just leave them off.
They absolutely won't leave the wipers off.. they are doing like you..building a factory type car build..these guys have access to a very sophisticated engineering department...extensive equipment, including one of the largest carbon fiber facilities in the nation. He said he only had 300 hours in the project so far..it was hard to believe how far he had come. I ask him how much it was going to cost..he wouldn't say..but I think he may do another or two..he had another body sitting next to it. I got the feeling the car will probably cost about $100K..lot of car for the money..lot of engineering is going into it

[SN65]

They absolutely won't leave the wipers off.. they are doing like you..building a factory type car build..these guys have access to a very sophisticated engineering department...extensive equipment, including one of the largest carbon fiber facilities in the nation. He said he only had 300 hours in the project so far..it was hard to believe how far he had come. I ask him how much it was going to cost..he wouldn't say..but I think he may do another or two..he had another body sitting next to it. I got the feeling the car will probably cost about $100K..lot of car for the money..lot of engineering is going into it
Hi Bob,

Glad to hear that they are paying attention to all the little details. One of my pet peves is when people build a car and leave these types of details off in the name of "styling".

Can you at least give us the name of their shop?

As far as cost goes, I would guess about double your 100K figure. Depending on the cost of the original 65 and the 05 he picked up I am guessing that they will have about $60,000 just in parts. They already have about $17,000 in labor. That leaves about another 400 man hours left. If they have 2 guys working full time, that gives them about 5 weeks to completion.

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

Glad to hear that they are paying attention to all the little details. One of my pet peves is when people build a car and leave these types of details off in the name of "styling".

Can you at least give us the name of their shop?

As far as cost goes, I would guess about double your 100K figure. Depending on the cost of the original 65 and the 05 he picked up I am guessing that they will have about $60,000 just in parts. They already have about $17,000 in labor. That leaves about another 400 man hours left. If they have 2 guys working full time, that gives them about 5 weeks to completion.
These guys have access to factory assemblies without buying the whole car..You would think 200K but I'll bet these guys will come in way under that..My guess is you'll see these guys do what Unique is doing and start building some of these if they sell well..I'm thinking this is a prototype..they aren't saying that but I'm wondering..I'll tell you shortly who it is..they don't want anything out on it now

[SN65]

Hi All,

New update at the site.

Also, Forgeline heard we were having wheel fitment issues and have decided to help us out with a cusom set of their 3 piece competition wheels. I just sent them off the dimensional data and they are going to create a wheel that has the proper offsets and backspacing. The neet thing is that I will be able to use the SVT centers on the new rims.

Bob

[SN65]

These guys have access to factory assemblies without buying the whole car..You would think 200K but I'll bet these guys will come in way under that..My guess is you'll see these guys do what Unique is doing and start building some of these if they sell well..I'm thinking this is a prototype..they aren't saying that but I'm wondering..I'll tell you shortly who it is..they don't want anything out on it now
Hi Bob,

I was looking at a friends 05. The dash is about 2" wider than the 65 will allow. I tried to imagine how they will section the dash to make it fit, but could not come up with any good ideas. I don't believe you said which dash they were using one way or the other. I just assumed that they were using the 05.

Did they have the dash in the car when you looked at it?

[Jagarang]

I still love this car.

If your interested in opionions regarding the steering wheel, I'll give you mine.

I think the 2005 wheel still has enough factoryness to fit in nicely, although you need to try it to be sure, and would look far more sleek and sporty. The 2003 wheel is just plain ugly, like it's pregnant and ready to burst!

[Bob Johnson]

Hi Bob,

I was looking at a friends 05. The dash is about 2" wider than the 65 will allow. I tried to imagine how they will section the dash to make it fit, but could not come up with any good ideas. I don't believe you said which dash they were using one way or the other. I just assumed that they were using the 05.

Did they have the dash in the car when you looked at it?
dash wasn't in it yet..I'll look in a week or so and tell you

[SN65]

Thanks Bob.

[sonofernest]

I think you should have gone with Ford GT wheels (if thats even possible) but IMO it would look completely bad ass.

[SN65]

Hi All,

This weekend we had the SN65's suspension dialed in. The car has been set up with 1.75 negative camber up front and .5 negative in the rear. Caster has been set to 7.5 positive front. The toe has been set to .125 out at the front and 1.25 in at the rear. Front to rear weight distribution is 55.5% front to 44.5% rear. Weight distribution from front left to rear right and from front right to rear left is exactly 50%. Total weight of the car is currently 3,552 lbs.

The tech that set up the car said that it should perform very well on any road course. He also said that he was very impressed with the accuracy of the front clip fabrication. When he was finished with the front end adjustments, the caster camber plates were, for all intents and purposes, mirror images of each other. He also said that it is very impressive that the car ended up with a 50/50 weight distribution from corner to corner.

We also kept plugging away at the final details. We mounted the mirrors, back up lights, front turn signals, the SS channels for retaining the drivers and passenger side window weather strips. Wayne did a bit more buffing and also fine tuned the trunk alignment.

Things are looking good. We should have the bumpers, seats and wheels this week. If we have any luck at all, we should be able to take the car for a spin next week.

Catch ya'll l8r

[zbugger]

We'll still want pics and maybe some video. I like your car.

[SN65]

Hi All,

This post really has nothing to do with the SN65 project, but…..

My brother just got word that State Farm is revising their authorized shop programs. They are consolidating all their programs into one and eliminating all shops that do not complete a specific number of repairs per month.

According to them, we are under the number required. From what I understand, the only shops that can qualify are those with multiple facilities.

Their decision has nothing to do with the quality of the work performed. Their decision has nothing to do with customer satisfaction. And while they will not come out and say it, their decision is based on cost and cost alone.

Also, they are “steering” business to the shops that will perform the repairs in the fastest, least expensive manner possible.

For those who don’t know “steering” is when you (as the customer) tell them that you want your car repaired by a specific shop but they tell you that your repair will not be covered unless you take it to an “authorized” facility. This of course is a load of crap.

I am sorry, but this is really pissing me off. We have worked long and hard to provide our customers with timely, quality repairs. And just because we don’t meet a specific quota, we are kicked out of the program.

So, how is the little guy supposed to get any collision work when the insurance companies are steering business away from small local shops? It is really hard enough to keep a business running without large insurance companies controlling what shop gets the work.

So…. Next time you need your car repaired, think long and hard about the shop you take it to. DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TAKE IT TO ONE ON THEIR LIST. While I am sure some of the shops do a quality job, you have to remember why they are on the list in the first place. Also, do not be scared off if they tell you that your repair will not be covered. If there is something wrong with your repair all the insurance company does is direct you back to the shop that did the repair.

Bob

PS: I am sick and tired of big business constantly crushing the little guy.

[SN65]

Hi All,

Josh, of the Daily Herald, is going to write an article about the SN65 project. He asked me if I knew anyone, other than us, he could talk to about the project, I thought of all of you.

So...

I would greatly appreciate it if you would give Josh a call at 630-587-8626 and tell him your honest opinion of the project, good, bad or otherwise.

Thanks Bob

[69 Hugger 396]

Hi All,

This post really has nothing to do with the SN65 project, but…..

My brother just got word that State Farm is revising their authorized shop programs. They are consolidating all their programs into one and eliminating all shops that do not complete a specific number of repairs per month.

According to them, we are under the number required. From what I understand, the only shops that can qualify are those with multiple facilities.

Their decision has nothing to do with the quality of the work performed. Their decision has nothing to do with customer satisfaction. And while they will not come out and say it, their decision is based on cost and cost alone.

Also, they are “steering” business to the shops that will perform the repairs in the fastest, least expensive manner possible.

For those who don’t know “steering” is when you (as the customer) tell them that you want your car repaired by a specific shop but they tell you that your repair will not be covered unless you take it to an “authorized” facility. This of course is a load of crap.

I am sorry, but this is really pissing me off. We have worked long and hard to provide our customers with timely, quality repairs. And just because we don’t meet a specific quota, we are kicked out of the program.

So, how is the little guy supposed to get any collision work when the insurance companies are steering business away from small local shops? It is really hard enough to keep a business running without large insurance companies controlling what shop gets the work.

So…. Next time you need your car repaired, think long and hard about the shop you take it to. DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TAKE IT TO ONE ON THEIR LIST. While I am sure some of the shops do a quality job, you have to remember why they are on the list in the first place. Also, do not be scared off if they tell you that your repair will not be covered. If there is something wrong with your repair all the insurance company does is direct you back to the shop that did the repair.

Bob

PS: I am sick and tired of big business constantly crushing the little
guy.

I too own a collision shop and am sick to death of the steering BS. I'm in CT and it's illegal here for an insurance company to tell a customer where to go for repairs. This is due to an anti steerage law signed into law by then Gov Lowell Weicker back in the early nineties. The insurance companies have developed thier own way to skirt the law though since then. They still have their preferred shops who cater to them and as you said, not all of them are necessarily bad but they do have to conform to the insurance co guidelines. They can't charge storage for totaled cars that go to salvage pools, they have to install the ins. companies preferred paint companies mixing setups (kickback), How they steer the customers has gotten pretty creative. Since it's illegal for the insurance company to do it they call the preferred shop with the customers name and number and the shop then calls the customer with the hard sell. I've had several customers call me and say that "Joe Blow's Auto Body called and told me that I had to have my car fixed by them" I quickly point out what's going on and haven't lost one yet to this crap. Even if it's an obvious total loss I hang onto them for the storage money. I've even had the "preferred shop" owners call me and tell me that they were coming to pick up the car. I tell them that they are more than welcome to come get it, just as soon as the customer signs a release. Until then it stays right where it is and storage will acrue. This way I get a chance to tell the customer how they are getting shuffled around and they always resent it. Nobody likes being told what they have to do and as I said before, we haven't lost one yet. Good luck to you

[SN65]

Hi All,

We have run into a little snag on the project pushing the completion date out to the beginning of next week.

So...

We are going to have to reschedule the open house to sometime after the Detroit show (the first weekend of March)

Sorry about the mix up.

That being the case, we will be working on the car this Saturday, so please e-mail me at [email protected] if you wish to stop by and see it in progress. Seeing as we will still be working on the car, we can only allow for a small number of people. For those wishing to stop by we will be able to show the car from 9 to noon.

I am sorry about having to reschedule the get together. We were really looking forward to meeting all of you and showing the finished car.

Bob

[JoshStratton]

Hey Bob. Is it a done deal that you will be at the Detroit show? Got a fancy display all ready? LOL

[SN65]

Hey Bob. Is it a done deal that you will be at the Detroit show? Got a fancy display all ready? LOL
Yes we will be at the Detroit show. Our display is being fit up right now. It is going to be a rather simple affair. Something that will allow people to see the car with minimal obstructions.

They are placing us pretty much in the center of the hall, a little off center to the left. They tried to get us a 20 x 20 area, but we ended up in a 12 x 24 at the end of a row.

Will you be stopping by?

[JoshStratton]

I will! I LOVE this show. I know exactly where you will be. There are always some cool things there and I think one of my favorite parts (other than checking out the half-naked girls in the basement import section, is the rat rods.

I hope to see you there!

[Travis B]

I will! I LOVE this show. I know exactly where you will be. There are always some cool things there and I think one of my favorite parts (other than checking out the half-naked girls in the basement import section, is the rat rods.

I hope to see you there!


half naked girls huh :smoke:

Cool


SN65 I will be stopping by to check out the car....

[JoshStratton]

Sorry to jack the thread.

Yeah there was some of this kinda stuff -->

Hotties (http://69.94.75.177/forum/showthread.php?t=15663)

Jack off. <-----LOL I meant to say hyjacking the thread is done, but that is too funny, especially given the link I just posted.


EDIT: Nevermind. I guess bikinis are not allowed.

[SN65]

Holly (@$(&@$&!!!!!!!

I just took the SN65 out for a spin (only around the block) and I am totally blown away. Every fear I had about lackluster acceleration, poor ride quality, misc. rattles, sluggish handling, etc.... has been officially laid to rest.

This car is a real screamer. :-)

When I pulled it out of the shop, I told myself to take it easy. We still have to log about 500 miles before the new clutch setup is fully broke in and I was really concerned over loose nuts and bolts, etc... After all, we did have every last nut and bolt off the car at one point or another.

I eased into the throttle and the car pulled away very smooth and responsive. Slight changes in the throttle gave me a feeling that the car will pull really well. The handling was phenomenal. Going around a couple corners at moderate speeds gave me the feeling that the car was on rails. The cockpit is just tight enough to give you a nice secure feel without being cramped.

The ride quality was a major concern of mine. We eliminated quite a few rubber components and replaced them with Delron and aluminum. I was really afraid that these changes would make the ride overly harsh and noisy, but the ride was surprisingly smooth.

The sound from the exhaust was just perfect. The car produces a nice mellow rumble at idle and a throaty growl under moderate acceleration.

Speaking of "moderate" acceleration. When the car is rolling along at about 35 to 40, if we just pop the throttle up to about 1/5 to 3/4 acceleration, the tires tend to break free. The F1's are a bit worn, but they still have a bit of tread left. I thought they would hold better. I guess the real test will be with the new rims and Toyo's rolling.

I really did not want to bring the car back to the shop. I just wanted to drive off into the sunset. It is the most fun I have had in a car ever, and it only lasted about 3 to 5 minutes. It is going to drive me nuts having this thing sitting here and not being able to drive fit.

I want to drive it to a couple of Ford dealers in the area just for an oil change. I want to drive it to a couple of exotic car dealers and take a few people for a test drive.

Speaking of test drives, I really want to be able to take some of you out for a spin. I wish I could take all of you, but time will not allow. Mark my words. If any of you who have been following this thread, ever come up to me at a car show, and we can arrange for some time on the road, we will do it.

Better yet, when we do the power tour, we will be happy to swap passengers with others on the trip. After all, If you get to ride in our car, we get to ride in yours.

Well, I have to get back to work. We have lots of little details yet to finish before the unveiling at the Autoramma.

Bob

[Jagarang]

Consider me officially thrilled and awaiting my ride Bob!
I'll be on the "Tour" in my project, Eternity, along with Prodigy and the Prodigy Customs band. We shouldn't be hard to find! We are also trying to arrange a "Tour Group Purchase"( GP for Power Tour!! (http://69.94.75.177/forum/showthread.php?t=15677&page=1&pp=20) )with members from the board, so you might have your passenger seat occupied with white knuckeled victims more than you anticipated! Hopefully PT.com will have a strong showing and we can all get to meet one another and make so everlasting friendships and memories!

[syborg tt]

seems like a great time to stop by - Congrads

[F70t/a]

Congrats!!!! :hail:

[69Nova]

Sounds like you had alot of fun :twothumbs . I'm might have missed it but what kind of wheels did you decide on?

[SN65]

Hi All,

We are getting ready to leave for the Autoramma. As we get closser and closser to the deadline, we find ourselves rushing around trying to complete all the final details. The car is finished save one or two final details. It is the cleaning and detailing that has running around right now.

Wish us luck.

Hope to see you at the show.

Full detailes will be posted next week, or durring the show if I have time and we have access to the net.

Bob

[DusterRT]

Looks really good!


Did you ever think about using some of those "crystal" headlights, the kind with no fluting in the lense? That would kinda modernize the look of the headlights without any real work to speak of. I've never seen any in person though, I'm not sure how nice they look up close..

Travis

[Bob Johnson]

Dropped by to look at SN65 and the guys..Bob was so enthusiastic it was unreal.
After looking at the car I could see why. Bill Howell had told me how nice it was..he wasn't lying...Very nice fit and finish and detailed to the max..nice jams/slick in all the hard to get to places..straight, and clean body work. These guys have done what they set out to do. I was more than pleasantly surprised..much better than I expected..Rogers GTO was also super nice.

[srh3trinity]

From the pictures that I have seen, I would agree that it came out very nice. I have to say that the wheel well flares are very well executed. They don't detract from the body lines, they add to it.

[SN65]

Hi All,

Just enough time to say that there are new photos at the site. I will be posting an update soon.

Bob

PS: Meting Bob J was one of the highlights of my trip. :-)

[kennyd]

i was impressed at the quality of this car

[Bob Johnson]

now you've got friends in low places..I enjoyed meeting you also..You're both nice guys and very enthusiastic about your work..I'm sure this car will get you lots of attention..deservedly so..

[Travis B]

I was also impressed at the quality of this car....well done guys you should be proud of the car

[Bill Howell]

Hi All,



PS: Meting Bob J was one of the highlights of my trip. :-)


I really thought alot of you until you posted that. At least you know a Georgia redneck now.....lol
Remember, he was on his best behaviour since he was with Doug and the twins.....

[Bob Johnson]

I really thought alot of you until you posted that. At least you know a Georgia redneck now.....lol
Remember, he was on his best behaviour since he was with Doug and the twins.....
I only act crazy when I'm comfortable and around good friends. You know I like you a lot if I'm kidding with you. I do have a subdued side..but that's no fun..now ol Vito..that's another story..I'm not kidding with that grease ball..

[Roger Poirier]

Dropped by to look at SN65 and the guys..Bob was so enthusiastic it was unreal.
After looking at the car I could see why. Bill Howell had told me how nice it was..he wasn't lying...Very nice fit and finish and detailed to the max..nice jams/slick in all the hard to get to places..straight, and clean body work. These guys have done what they set out to do. I was more than pleasantly surprised..much better than I expected..Rogers GTO was also super nice.

I saw the car also. I missed the owners during my visit. This is the first time I have posted on this thread as I have been waiting to see the car first hand. It drove me crazy every time I looked up this thread and could never see what the the final project looked like.

I have a great appreciation for the engineering that went into this car. I tried to do the same with my own car, but in a more primitive way. Meaning everything off the shelf. An engineer I'm not.

Excellent work.... Congrats! :twothumbs

R.P.

[Steve Chryssos]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Bob,
When you get a chance, please get it out into the sunlight and take some nice pics for us. Let's finally get some finished pix into this thread.

SN65 came out great. The flares, the lines, the fctory fresh cockpit. It all looks great The wheels look awesome. Just sucking those wheels and tires in a little made a huge difference. Nice work.

[Jagarang]

LOL....Indeed.

Finally a finished photo! We're is KevinW@W with that digital Canon Rebel when you need him!!!

[srh3trinity]

Congrats on putting together a nice car, the Forgelines were a nice choice, the still kept the Cobra look you were going for, but look much better than the stockers.

[SN65]

Hi All,

Still working on the website, but.....

I don't know if you are interested or not, but there are a few new additions to the video section. In one of them, you can see Wayne put the car gingerly through its paces. Just remember, he only had about 60 feet to work with and he was taking it easy. He made this video while I was out to lunch. That is the last time I leave him alone with the keys. :-)

Bob

[CAMAROBOY69]

Hi All,

Still working on the website, but.....

I don't know if you are interested or not, but there are a few new additions to the video section. In one of them, you can see Wayne put the car gingerly through its paces. Just remember, he only had about 60 feet to work with and he was taking it easy. He made this video while I was out to lunch. That is the last time I leave him alone with the keys. :-)

Bob
THanks for letting us know about the update. Always cool to see the cars being put to good use. I love seeing them driven. :woot: It was also cool seeing the power windows in action. :)

[SN65]

Hi RP,

Thanks for the kind words. Sorry to have missed you at the show. Maybe we can meet at the GGC show.

Bob

[SN65]

Hi All,

I think that it is time to sign off on the SN65 project thread. We are all complete, save a few minor items to chase down.

Posting this thread here has been a joy. The help received has been priceless. I cannot thank all of you enough.

I will be posting updates on the SN65 website. Mechanical updates, show schedule, track times, etc...

If you are ever in the Chicago area, I expect you to stop by the shop and say hey. And, I can always be reached via e-mail at [email protected]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Catch ya'll l8r

Bob

[StreetFighter]

Im new here on the forum but i would like to know were you got the wheels on your yellow mustang in the picture you have on page 14 of this thread

[StreetFighter]

i know this is really old but those are just about the coolest wheels on a mustang in my opinion and i have seen them on a few others but id like to get them for mine

[wiedemab]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


If you are talking about these wheels????? They are just '03 - '04 Cobra wheels.

[StreetFighter]

If you are talking about these wheels????? They are just '03 - '04 Cobra wheels.


Yes those are awesome thank you do you remember wat sizes they are?

[wiedemab]

a quick google search tells me they are 17X9 +25mm offset.

[StreetFighter]

did you have to do any suspension or fender modification or spacers to get them to fit under the front and if so did they rub at all?

[srh3trinity]

I haven't seen SN65 post here in years. flip through this thread, the car was HEAVILY modified.

[StreetFighter]

ya i have seen them it was really cool but i didn't realize a different person was talking to me about them but thanks guys they are cool and you have helped alot.