'68 Firebird Convertible - Still Evolving

[digitalman2112]

This thread is to document (and seek input) as we continue to evolve our '68 Firebird Convertible.

A little history on the car:

It was restored 25+ years ago to a '68 400 H.O. Firebird, and it was driven / shown around the country. It has been in numerous Muscle Car and Pontiac books - just last week I found yet another book with the car in it. (I promptly bought 2 copies!)

Here's the pic that shows up most commonly...(someone uploaded it to wikipedia...)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/640px1968_Pontiac_Firebird_400_HO_Conver-1.jpg

After owning it and showing it in factory form for a number of years, he got the bug and started swapping out factory parts until it was highly modded with a chromed-out, lumpy 455 with a Richmond 6 speed and a 12 bolt with some wide 15" torque thrusts.

I bought the car in 2004 as the previous owner was selling off his toys to go move to live with his children and grandchildren on a farm in North Florida. He clearly didn't want to sell, but there were other forces involved, and I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. (Frank at Prodigy tried to buy it from him several months earlier and was told no...so I got lucky...) I'd been looking for a Chevelle convertible, and but really liked the size of the Firebird when I found it, so I grabbed it. The fact that it was already modded meant I didn't have to worry about "molesting" an original car.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/DSCN3235JPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/6f_3JPG-1.jpg

Here's my boys (now 9 and 12!) from a car show not long after we purchased it...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/DSCN3243JPG-1.jpg

Later, I started modding the car further, not fixing things as much as doing them as I would have done them. For example, I replaced this strange half-ass routed hard fuel line with some decent braided line, a proper filter, and carb inlet. I'd previously owned a 75 camaro, an 83 camaro, and an 82 vette, so I'd done my share of basics, up to an engine build / swap and a full suspension upgrade on the '83 camaro.

One day the clutch started acting up, and the more I looked, the more I realized I needed a pro to look over driveline angles, etc - so the car went to Frank at Prodigy where we installed a new clutch setup, built a proper crossmember, redid the exhaust, added an ignition box & MSD distributor, some good wires, replaced the body bushings (which were pretty non-existent), changed to a DSE steering box, etc. These mods made the car WAY more enjoyable (lots of slop that I attributed to old design were simply poor implementation of the previous mods, and some missing rubber on the body bushings!)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/PIC00043JPG-1.jpg

The Torque thrusts were too wide and rubbed in the rear, and I didn't care for the 15" any more - AND I wanted to change the look of the car a bit (People knew the prior owner since he was at local shows on a regular basis, and I needed to make the car more visually "mine") - so I grabbed some inexpensive Hot Wheels Sixty Eights. My boys LOVED the fact that the car had "Hot Wheels" :)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/DSCN1JPG-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/DSCN3954JPG-1.jpg

Later, the car went into storage as I remodeled my house (and added another garage!) - and somehow in getting in back from storage, I wiped a cam. Still don't know what happened, but I replaced the cam, lifters, pushrods, timing set, and put it all back together. I fixed lots of small stuff (the wiring harness was badly hacked by the prior owner and always causing issues...) and took it to the Daytona Turkey Rod show in 2009 along with my youngest son, who was 7 at this point - He's my little gear-head...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/P1010788JPG-1.jpg


It was 35 degrees as we drove to the show that day - and for a Floridian, that's too cold. I had no heat (it had never worked, I'd never really cared), and the hacked up firewall let cold air in (and hot air in the summer!), so I decided to start sealing things up. I pulled out the heater box, which was a hacked mess, and I found more hacked wires (this was getting to be a familar story!), so I started pulling things out to replace them. Next thing I know, the interior is out, the steering column is out, all wiring is removed, the front sheet metal is off, I've ordered a DSE firewall plate, and a vintage air setup. I then bought a welder and a plasma cutter and set out to learn to weld. This was mid 2010.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/06/IMG_0928JPG-1.jpg

I've been busy with work, some local non-profits I work with, and a variety of other things. My boys are now 12 and 9, they are begging me to work on the car, so it is time to make some decisions about the end-point of this evolution, and get busy.

I purchased a copy of "How Cars Work" - and I've been taking them through each major part on the car - showing them in the book, then letting them go see it on the car. They had some general knowledge before, but it is time to let them actually get dirty and learn the real way. At the same time, I need to improve my own skills. I'm good at buying / bolting - but my fabrication skills need a LOT of help. The firewall welding scares me a bit, but I'm willing to try it, and then call in a pro if I make it worse :)

We cleaned a path to the car this past Saturday and I told the boys we'd accomplish something...my 12 year old says "let's pull the driveshaft!"...and so we did. It was a little thing, but they got excited and I felt like I'd begun. The engine / transmission will be coming out July 7th / 8th, and then I'll parallel task on the firewall closeup and the stock suspension rework next.

I'm currently reading "How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle" by Mark Savitske for the 4th time in as many weeks, and will be making some decisions soon. I'll post my thoughts / logic here for comments soon. The front suspension mods are a given at this point. I'm still trying to keep myself from getting into the rear suspension this time around if possible, its a rabbit hole (mini-tub, wheels, axles, brakes, etc), and I think I'd rather get the car running again, then do that as a future project - even if the future is soon :)

Along the way, I'll be rereading this to remind myself of a few things:

Learning is a primary goal - for me and my boys. This means that putting things together can be more rewarding than buying things assembled - but if something takes too much time, or is too far beyond my skills, it could be discouraging if I get stalled.
I need to find ways to keep the boys excited about the project. One loves to design, the other is more hands-on.
I need to get the car running again by next summer - and drive it. Power Tour? :)
My older son wants to build a Jeep (or something) after this project. See the "complete by next summer" line, and remember there is another project waiting!
The car will never be "done" - remember that, and save something for the next evolution...
I don't plan on doing Autocross or other racing - but it sure looks like fun, and in a few years might be something my boys would enjoy doing, so I want to leave my options open - without specifically building the car for any specific purpose other than safe, fast & fun street driving.
I have other things in my life - this can't take over, but it can get lots of focused time if the boys are involved.


Big thanks to everyone that posts here, I learn quite a bit in my late night reading sessions!

[digitalman2112]

The current list that is in-scope for this phase:

Close up / repaint firewall
Clean / re-finish (paint / powdercoat) stock subframe
All new front suspension
Likely a brake update (might wait until the rear suspension is done to upsize brakes with wheels)
New wiring harness (likely something of my own design...)
Open richmond transmission to check internal parts
Fix transmission tunnel from prior hack job, increase shifter linkage clearances
Relocate battery to trunk
New steering column
Vintage Air system (already purchased)
March Serpentine set (have most of the parts)



Other likely items:

Hydroboost
Remote reservoir power steering pump
Interior metal prep for sound reduction
Subframe connectors



On the fence:

Rear suspension, part of me wants to just get it all done & over with at once...but this leads to minitubbing, and brakes, and wheels, and, and, and...
Hydraulic clutch


Suggestions by others:

Solid body mounts



I know I'm forgetting things, I'll come back here & update as I remember...

[geberhard]

Loving the build, definitely radical starting witha clean vert :) I am doing my 68 now (Lolla), and darn I need to update teh thread :)

Kepe it coming I like the direction this is going :)

[LeighP]

With that sort of power, consider solid body mounts and subframe connectors....it'd really tie the car together.
I have that pic of your car (top one)....saved for reference when I was going to restore a 67 convertible.
Alas, a friend talked me out of the convertible....so he got to restore it.
I love the black, with the red factory stripe.

[digitalman2112]

With that sort of power, consider solid body mounts and subframe connectors....it'd really tie the car together.

I'd planned on subframe connectors, but not solid body mounts, I'll have to look into those, especially since I'm pulling the front subframe off soon anyway... thanks

[digitalman2112]

Today's progress:

Shifter Handle removed
Throttle cable disconnected
Clutch mechanism (Z-bar, etc) removed
Fuel Line disconnected from carb
Transmission unbolted from transmission mount
Exhaust unbolted
Starter removed

At this point, to remove the motor, it is just the motor mount bolts, jack up the engine, push back the car - which should fit right in the kids attention span :)


I also got sidetracked today trying to identify the rear axle flanges - I'm closer, but still not a positive identification... I need to just pull off the drum brake assembly and be done with it...

[Peter Mc Mahon]

I'm following along now!

[CliffS]

subscribed!

[neki67]

I'd planned on subframe connectors, but not solid body mounts, I'll have to look into those, especially since I'm pulling the front subframe off soon anyway... thanks

You can't go subframe connectors w.o. solid Body mounts (I believe you can verify that in your copy of How to make your Muscle Car handle). Don't go for the cheapo Energy Suspension ones but interlocking like DSE, Hotchkis, Global West, etc.

[digitalman2112]

After intending to pull the engine for over two years, it is finally out.

61692

And some notes for the "I should have known better", and the "remember next time" categories:

- Transmission fluid - have a plan in advance
- Coolant - there is still some in there, and it will come out after you've tilted the engine a few times
- Would be much easier if headers were unbolted from the heads and came out separately
- Removing the distributor cap would add more clearance
- Removing the Transmission crossmember isn't an option
- Motor mount plates need to come out if the headers are coming out with the engine
- If I'm planning to remove the subframe soon anyway, why didn't I just lift the body off the front subframe? (This dawned on me shortly after finishing)

All in all, it was only a few hours, but it felt far more difficult than it should have been.

I'm still waiting for the engine cradle to arrive (annoyed) but we braced it well enough for now. If it doesn't arrive soon, I'll go back to the original plan and fab one. My welding sucks, so I could use the practice anyway.

We also rotated the car so that I can get the subframe out of the garage once it is removed. More on that later...

[digitalman2112]

One of my next things to decide - disassemble suspension while subframe is attached to the car, or go ahead and detach the subframe and then disassemble. I can't think of a reason it matters, but I've never done it.

Any opinions?

[LeighP]

get an internal spring compressor...forget about the floating top hooks, just feed the treaded rod through the shock hole and wind the spring up into the subframe...I've found this to be the easiest way to disassemble/assemble the suspension wihout the weight of the engine to help you jack up the lower control arm.
Don't forget a safety chain through the spring while you're disassembling.

It does help to have the subframe back on the car when you're assembling the suspension.....and not having all the weight of the springs, stubs and arms sure helps when you're fitting and aligning the subframe.

[digitalman2112]

I removed the headers this week. 6 bolts on the driver's side, 4 on the passenger side. All the hands / eyes (including mine!) on this engine in the last 8 years and no one noticed 2 missing header bolts :)

[digitalman2112]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2127JPG-1.jpg

Today we removed all the steering components, the master cylinder, proportioning valve, and calipers...we will have a bare subframe shortly :)

[digitalman2112]

Yesterday we removed the shocks, swaybar and the front springs. I'd never removed springs before, so I did a bunch of reading, and went very slow.

My 9 year old got in the on the action yesterday - he helped remove the shocks...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2132JPG-1.jpg


When I was reading about removing the springs, I saw a comment about not having enough weight to compress the springs for removal...they suggested sandbags. I decided that I needed a good arm / shoulders workout... I know this is wrong on a few levels...but it worked :twothumbs

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2164JPG-1.jpg

I used a heavy cable to attach the springs to the frame, and lowered with the jack. I took my time and it worked out well.

My 12 year old and I then did something awesome - we cleaned and put away all the handtools. I'm really bad about leaving them near me since I usually work alone and it is a pain to get fetch them every time. With him helping me now, it is great to be able to clean up and have him get the right tool as I need it :)

[digitalman2112]

Progress update:

All suspension & braking components have been removed from the subframe. Lots of grime remains. Looks like someone has welded on this thing before - there is lots of weld splatter around the UCA brackets - unless that was common from the factory...

Here's my 9 year old posing after we finished the disassembly :)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2195JPG-1.jpg

I stopped on the subframe until I could read more about supporting the body while removing the frame, and turned my attention to the firewall. I started locating and removing paint around each hole...this took a loooong time.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_0974JPG-1.jpg

I had some blue painters tape on the inside (bottom of the dash?) showing through one of the holes, and I thought it would make them more visible for photos...so I went back out and made them much more obvious...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_0995JPG-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_0996JPG-1.jpg

In the shot below, you can see the blue tape covering part of my wiper hole. I learned that the 67 & 68 had different wiper holes (by putting my DSW wiper on and realizing the gasket was a VERY different shape than the hole...), looks like mine is the 68 hole opened up to fit a 67 wiper at some point. This explains all the extra holes around the wiper assembly - the 67 wiper motor had different bolt holes too... I really need to track down the idiots that thought this stuff was acceptable :machine:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_0997JPG-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_0998JPG-1.jpg


While putting on the blue tape, I found FIVE more holes, that looked like grease smudges but were black RTV or other hardened goop covering a hole. Something tells me I'm not done finding them.

I also found this opening on the passenger side of the inner cowl. It had a crappy piece of nibbled sheet metal screwed & RTV'd over it, so I assumed it was another hack job. While cruising the forums looking at other firewalls, I realized that it was on certain cars, but not others...a mystery...but not for long... NOT_A_TA, and RonC were in the chat last night and they helped me figure out that it was for a fresh air vent on A/C cars. I'll likely weld it up since I'll be closing up so much other stuff.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_0972JPG-1.jpg

Next up, I need to map out all these holes, make sure I'm not filling up anything important, and start seriously improving my sheet metal skills. Since the big hacked A/C opening will likely be covered by the DSE plate or a larger plate, I'll start practicing by filling in some of those holes, if I screw them up, it doesn't matter since I'll likely be cutting out that area anyway.

[digitalman2112]

Back to work this week, so no real progress other than the usual daily learning on car forums.

I'm slowly collecting supplies this week...

I ordered an 11 pound spool of ESAB easy grind .23 MIG wire this week, from what I've read, that should help my firewall work.

I also ordered some braided wire wheels and a braided wire cup brush for paint and grime removal. Thanks to NOT_A_TA for the tip.

Last night I was driving home and one of my new neighbors had these VERY larger flattened cardboard boxes out for the trash - I grabbed a few to set the subframe on when I pull it, should help keep the driveway / garage a little cleaner as I need to clean & spray them.

Hopefully I'll get some volunteer arms & legs and the subframe will come off this weekend - but its not a huge rush, I can work on the firewall with it there...

[digitalman2112]

Weekend update:

Subframe is out! Huge thanks to my friends Lou & Jeff for helping...

After reviewing a ton of pics of other car projects, this is how I decided to support the car. (Ignore the milk crate and the gray jack, they were supporting the subframe on the way down, and just haven't been pulled out of the way...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2236JPG-1.jpg

Here's a good pic of the subframe removed from the car (the giant cardboard from the neighbor was VERY handy)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2233JPG-1.jpg

In this pic, I'm cleaning it using the twisted wire cup brush on the angle grinder. That thing is amazing - just cuts right through the grime & old paint.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2237JPG-1.jpg

Great example of the caked on grime...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2241JPG-1.jpg

I found a way to keep from covering myself with the flying particulates...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2243JPG-1.jpg

Before and after...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/IMG_2242JPG-1.jpg

I'd estimate I still have another 3 or 4 hours of cleaning to have it completely de-grimed. Then I'll start grinding the weld splatter, etc. I also see a few spots that are concerning (the front bushing mounts look thin), once it is clean I'll post pics...

[BMR Sales]

Ian,


Car looks great already so I cant wait to see it in person once you and the guys get it done! What are your plans for subframe connectors? We have two different styles: weld-in & bolt on....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/Subframeconnectors-1.jpg


Are you planning to sandblast the subframe or grind it down? There is a shop about 3 miles from us that blasts all of our big stuff that we cant fit in our booth. What are your plans for the front suspension? We have a coil-over conversion that would be a great addition to your subframe:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/STOCK-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/WELDEDINPLACE-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/IMG_20120403_173811-1.jpg

[digitalman2112]

Rich, I'm doing as much cleaning as I can here - I want to ensure that I'm going to stick with the stock subframe, then I can have it blasted to get the rest off as needed.

I'd pretty much decided to go with the Ridetech front suspension as it wouldn't require welding - but if I need to weld on the subframe anyway, then I have some other options. I sent you a PM about visiting your shop sometime - I'd like to learn more about your products since you are so close.

[digitalman2112]

Subframe cleaning continues...


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2288JPG-1.jpg

I couldn't easily get it up on the table by myself, so I grabbed a 2x4 and used it as a kickstand...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2289JPG-1.jpg


After more cleaning, I took some photos of my concerns...

The firewall bushing pads look thin and abused...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2279JPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2277JPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2275JPG-1.jpg

and one side of the framerail looks distorted - this is the passenger rear bushing pad...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2281JPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2282JPG-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2283JPG-1.jpg

I'll keep cleaning...

[LeighP]

Ouch...looks kinda like someone hung the car up on that rear frame rail...kinda squished it.

[digitalman2112]

With the new A/C and all my welding gear in the Firebird garage, I fabbed up an engine cradle finally.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2305JPG-1.jpg

I still need to make the other side, and weld on baseplates for casters. My welding is improving, but still needs lots of improvement. I haven't ground them down to make them pretty yet... more interested in being able to move this big thing (and engine hoist) into the corner :)

I also removed the transmission today to make the whole assembly easier to deal with. I cleaned the case and rolled it into the corner for now.

Here's the newly organized corner with all the welding gear. The welder / plasma are under the welding table. I have to move it out from the wall to connect it to power / C25 gas, but then it is surprisingly functional.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0040-1.jpg

I really should put that lightswitch back in and put a cover on them :)

[BMR Sales]

Rich, I'm doing as much cleaning as I can here - I want to ensure that I'm going to stick with the stock subframe, then I can have it blasted to get the rest off as needed.


Well if you need a place to blast it there is a place called Carters near us....



I'd pretty much decided to go with the Ridetech front suspension as it wouldn't require welding - but if I need to weld on the subframe anyway, then I have some other options. I sent you a PM about visiting your shop sometime - I'd like to learn more about your products since you are so close.

Looking forward to meeting you and the boys when you get a chance to come over. I can show you our stuff on our shop 69 Camaro.

[rohrt]

subscribed

That looks like a tuff fix to un-squish that sub frame end. Not sure if you can get it red hot and beat into shape or not. The frame mount pads are not all that hard to pound back into place and I would get the patches they sell for thoes and weld them in for strength.

Thoes subframes are not that hard to find but could be hard to find a better one. Be sure the frame is square and strait and I would recommend fully welding the seams for extra strength.

[digitalman2112]

I didn't get to measuring it this past weekend, but it is up first on the todo list...I suspect the end can be dealt with, especially with weld-on subframe for added strength - but if there are other issues, I won't sink more time / money into it.

Took me a long time to convince myself I _didn't_ need an aftermarket subframe - looks like I may end up right where I started :)

[digitalman2112]

I was really annoyed by some other things tonight, so I decided to "add insult to injury" and go measure my subframe - figuring I had bad news coming...

I used the measurements here - http://www.1stgencamaro.net/frame.htm

I had some large allthread that I put in the holes for risers and tried to measure as best I could by myself.

Here are my measured dimensions:

A = 38 5/16 (very close to the expected 38 1/4)
B = 35 3/8 (very close to the expected 35 1/4) (measured on passenger side)
C = 54 3/16 (exactly the expected measurement)
D = 44 3/4 (3/16 more that the expected 44 9/16)
E = 34 5/6 (a whopping 9/16 more than the expected 33 3/4)

Now, a bit of this shift in E comes from the damage at the end of the subframe, but I suspect given the 3/16 of spread showing up at D, that the rear rails are pulled apart some. Some of this could be measurement error, but I marked off the expected value of E, and it isn't even close.

I didn't do any of the vertical measurements.

And the $5k question...now what? Is this bad enough to not use it and walk away from the bad subframe? Should I work to repair the subframe compressed end, and get the rear bushing holes back in line while making that repair?

[armourmark]

Depends on what your time is worth. It might take awhile to get it just right, but if you have the time, it might be worth it to spend that $5k somewhere else on parts.

[digitalman2112]

Depends on what your time is worth. It might take awhile to get it just right, but if you have the time, it might be worth it to spend that $5k somewhere else on parts.

I don't mind taking time to repair something, provided I can be confident that the repair will be safe and not need additional repair / rework later...that lingering doubt is what typically leads me to replace things.

I'm also very discouraged in looking at the aftermarket subframes, because it seems very few directly support Pontiac engines, and I don't plan to swap engines at this time. Spending $7-8k total on a custom sub and suspension to then have to have motor mounts and headers made and HOPE I get proper clearance doesn't excite me. I've been hunting on the site for Firebirds with Pontiac engines with aftermarket subs, but so far only found ones with LS engines. I'll keep looking... and call DSE since they show Pontiac Motor mounts on their options. I need to understand the other impacts (headers, oil pan, other clearance issues)

Thanks for the input...

[rohrt]

I was thinking some one sells a new stock sub-frame pretty reasonably.

[68400BIRD]

I would try to fix the frame and then add sub frame connectors to help tie it all together. The main weakness in the stock frame is the stitch welding. Weld up the mounting points, heat up the rear portion and straighten. Then take your time and weld the frame up solid taking care to not heat it up to much and warp it.

[BMR Sales]

I was thinking some one sells a new stock sub-frame pretty reasonably.

Ian,



We can get this new 68 subframe for you and then install our coil-over mod to it..:bananna2:



https://www.autometaldirect.com/store/productdetail/390-3568/68-Camaro-Sub-Frame-Assy?view=productdetail&stockNumber=390-3568&BOMReference=&selectedcat=Quarter%20Panel&prod_cat=&desc=68-Camaro-Sub-Frame-Assy

[LV42DAY]

great build so far. i tend to have a soft spot for family oriented home builds. i have a 68 camaro convertible that i am basically keeping warm until i hand it off to my son (he is about to turn 2). so in the mean time i am just doing what i can to it, little by little. i am still waiting to have my camaro shipped here from NJ but once it is, if you need an extra set of hands, let me know, since we are basically a stone throws distance away from each other.

keep up the good work i look forward to seeing this car progress.

[digitalman2112]

great build so far. i tend to have a soft spot for family oriented home builds...if you need an extra set of hands, let me know, since we are basically a stone throws distance away from each other.

Thanks for the positive feedback. Kids today are pulled in so many directions - Internet, Video Games, endless TV / DVR - that it is hard to get them to stop and spend time to MAKE something, but that's what I've been trying to do. We also do a lot of work with electronics projects, are involved with our local hackerspace (www.familab.org), and the local Maker Faire (www.orlandominimakerfaire.com) - One of my goals is to have the car ready for Maker Faire next year (likely Memorial Day weekend), and to show off the electronics that we intend to custom design for it. Of course there is a lot of learning and hard work between now & then, so I'm not adding too much stress to hit the date and am trying to keep it fun.

Thanks for the offer of hands - I get stuck sometimes and just need someone to say - "go for it, you are overthinking it", which is one reason I maintain this thread. It is good seeing all the Florida guys posting lately to know there are some local guys to smack me upside the head when I get stupid :)

[digitalman2112]

I spent a bunch more time working on my MIG welding and fabrication skills this weekend. Having the garage air conditioned means that I can spend hours out there cutting / cleaning / welding with the proper protective gear on and without getting heat stroke.

The big news is that the engine is on the stands, and I rolled it into the corner today. This frees up a huge amount of space that was taken up by the hoist and engine.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0067-1.jpg

You can also see my Richmond 6 speed ROD transmission peeking out. It is sitting on a rolling tire dolly.

I originally started out to make this design

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

but I was worried about all the weight on just two welded joints. I was easy to add another post on the drivers side, but the passenger side took some work due to the oil filter. In the end, the driver's side block rests on the back post, but on the passenger side, that post has a plate that can be bolted to the bellhousing. You can see that plate in this pic...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0064-1.jpg

After looking at this pic, it definitely doesn't look square, but it works :)

That plate was some of my last work today, and I was really happy with the freehand curve on the plasma cutter, and the MIG welds. I didn't clean up any of the other welds, but I hit these with the flap disc for the nut clearance, and then did the outside one just to make it look pretty...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0060-2.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0061-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0062-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0063-1.jpg

When I originally bought parts to make this cradle two years ago, I couldn't find shaft mount casters, so I cut four plates, welded them on, and then drilled / bolted the casters. It had to take 3 extra hours to cut / drill / clean / weld / bolt those damn things...but they work great!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0058-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0057-1.jpg

One last pic - side view...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMAG0069-1.jpg

I started making a bolt-on front crossbar, with welded nuts to hold the hardware when not in use, but didn't get it done tonight. I also ordered some paint for it...Pontiac metallic blue engine paint :)

Sorry for the crappy photo quality today, used my phone since I forgot to take the shop camera back out there and was tired of making trips back in the house...

[digitalman2112]

We visited Rich at BMR Suspension today - I posted pics in a separate thread (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?92063-Teaching-my-boys-about-suspension-with-a-visit-to-BMR&p=929106#post929106) - well worth the trip.

[digitalman2112]

With limited space, NOT being able to move the car around easily has been challenging since I took off the front subframe. I've seen a bunch of cars on here with supports that mount to the firewall subframe mounts and allow the car body to be rolled around. I would call these a "chassis dolly" although I'm not sure of the right term. Today, my 12 year-old (Adam) and I set out for the steel supplier, ready to make one.

Turns out the local steel supplier, L&C Metals (http://www.landcmetals.com/), is not only open on Saturday mornings, but one of the owners, Jeff, is an awesome guy.

We picked through his drop wall, selected a 49" piece of 3" x 1.5" x 1/8th" and a 34" piece of 2" x 1/8" tube. He let Adam program the cuts on this monster bandsaw, and showed us all the different metalworking equipment, their machine shop, etc. They have a break there that will bend a 12 FOOT long piece of 1/2" steel!

We brought the steel home and started fabricating. This type of build may be simple for others, but it is not routine for us. We did it in about 4 hours with all the cleaning, drilling, plasma cutting (the caster mounts), and the welding.

Attaching one side of the 44" wide main tube...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2306JPG-1.jpg


Cleaning off LOTS of surface rust for weld prep...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2316JPG-1.jpg

I beveled the edges of the riser tubes...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2321JPG-1.jpg

Plasma cut some 1/8" plate for the caster mounting flanges
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2326JPG-1.jpg

Test fit...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2331JPG-1.jpg

Melting metal...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2335JPG-1.jpg

Finished welding...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2339JPG-1.jpg

Mounting casters...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2342JPG-1.jpg

Done!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2349JPG-1.jpg

Notes:
- Main tube = 44"
- Risers = 12"
- Casters = 6" swivel (no brakes...but back wheels are blocked)
- Risers are 10" (outside edge) in from end of main tube - this lets the subframe sit directly below the body, the risers are not in the way
- Used the body bushing bolts, worked great with that size tube...

[digitalman2112]

Not making as much progress this weekend as I'd hoped, but I did make some. Most of my time was removing paint from the firewall around all the extra holes. I even got the interior side of the holes, which was good because some of them had some greasy crap on the inside which would have really contaminated the welds.

some example areas...cleaned and ready to have the holes filled...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/09/IMG_2377JPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/09/IMG_2379JPG-1.jpg

No surprises on the main firewall, but on the passenger outer firewall, i found some goop. The good was hiding a crappy patch...and rust. This is my first encounter with panel rust, and it was quite discouraging.

Here's what it looked like when I removed the goop...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/09/IMG_2383JPG-1.jpg

and after hitting it with the knotted cup brush...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/09/IMG_2387JPG-1.jpg

I'll cut it out and then see if there is more rot anywhere, if not, I can just replace that piece (if anyone knows better than me, please chime in!)

[digitalman2112]

I'm back from a car work (and forum hiatus) - work and other family / personal commitments needed focus. Luckily the holiday weekend gave me some time to venture back out the garage.

I decided to tackle the bent subframe end. I borrowed a 6 ton benchtop press and proceeded to have a go at bending some metal.

Here's the before shot:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/08/IMG_2283JPG-1.jpg

and here's the after

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/11/IMG_1807JPG-1.jpg

Its not perfect, but it is pretty good.

There is a crack I'm concerned about, I guess I'll weld it up and see how it looks...the crack is at the edge of the overlapping metal inside...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/11/IMG_1810JPG-1.jpg

Any thoughts / opinions welcomed...

[droptop73]

Drill a hole (1/8") at the end of the crack before welding it (the crack and the hole) up. This will stop further cracking.

[digitalman2112]

Drill a hole (1/8") at the end of the crack before welding it (the crack and the hole) up. This will stop further cracking.

Thanks for the tip!

[NOT A TA]

Drill a hole (1/8") at the end of the crack before welding it (the crack and the hole) up. This will stop further cracking.

^^^

[67speedfreak]

Nice looking project ! We are in Merritt Island, Let us know if you need anything !

[digitalman2112]

After ignoring the car for almost two years, I'm "back in the saddle".

I started catching back up on my pro-touring reading and parts shopping in late September and early October, then worked on a plan that made sense to the family. My boys are 11 & 14 now, so I've involved them more in the discussion and planning so that they are more engaged in the project.

My current goal is to get the car running by June of 2015 (And do Hot Rod Power Tour if the route works for us...) - with some work deferred to a later stage. Its a bit optimistic, but I'm going to give it a shot :)

I've sold the Richmond ROD transmission, and have the Pontiac 455 on Craigslist. I'm not in a hurry to sell it, but I've made the decision to move to an LS motor with a manual transmission.

For now, I'm focused on closing up all the holes in the firewall, and I've been making slow, but steady progress the past few weeks.

I need to get back in the habit of updating this thread, and I appreciate any questions, feedback, advice, or "what the hell are you thinking?!" replies :)

[digitalman2112]

Recent firewall work...

Fixing the oversized wiper motor hole to accept the Detroit Speed wiper motor. I'm still learning to work with sheet metal, so this is slow work, and doesn't look the best, but I'm getting better as I go.

Starting point:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15694343501_63c1e143a2-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pURBxk)

Fixing the smaller holes (MIG welder & copper backing tool):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15672545266_63d92de7dc-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pSVTFG)

Quick cardboard template to get the bottom shape:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15511460510_8e71bb78b5-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pCGhNj)

Tried the new nibbler, but it wasnt working well at this gauge, switched to the plasma for later cuts (some of the metal was likely hardened from prior plasma cutting on this piece of steel):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15510881228_59de9e50f9-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pCDjAG)

After grinding the patch to a decent shape, I held the metal patch in place with a magnet in the cowl area:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15696261565_de445c93ba-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pV2rHp)

Tacked the patch in place:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15076316704_3938c60655-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oYf4GU)

Quick cardboard template for the outline of the gasket:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15076319294_134acb860d-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oYf5ty)

Once tacked in place, I used the template to mark the top curve, removed the patch, cut the top curve with the plasma cutter (love my new welding gloves!):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15510389489_0ce596b518-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pCANqr)

Since the stitch welding sucked on the blower hole, I did more of a bead on this patch. Sure looks horrible before grinding it. Suggestions?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15696263765_8531b26e3c-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pV2snk)

Current state:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15696269335_986480c0e5-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pV2u2n)

Wiper motor mounted (should it be slightly angled?):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15076921603_4d0d8dc77e-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oYiawc)

Making sure the wiper gasket will seal:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15076320594_dc48689d27-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oYf5RY)

[driveit]

Looking good so far. I can't wait until my son can get out there and help me more on my project.

[digitalman2112]

More firewall work...

Starting point for the large patch (previous A/C plus other things...):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15510381779_7191cf9c91-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pCAL8v)

Got the new nibbler out to make one big opening with smooth edges:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15510875728_53fcc3ab94-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pCDhXS)

Final shape (and you can see the patched blower hole...):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15510876768_18fed962f8-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pCDigN)

I'm keeping this hole open for right now, as I want to get as much practice as possible before it...and it gives me easy access to the backside of the firewall while doing other patches. I'm expecting it to take a VERY long time.

[digitalman2112]

My minions at work:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15433789377_30a2f751ec-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pvQcSR)

I had them start sanding by hand:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/14999033024_15b53dc54f-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oRpXXE)

Then let them try using a removal pad on a drill:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15604308306_b11a34be32-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pLUado)

And they did some grinding with a die grinder:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/14999026624_74026bd8af-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oRpW4j)

We also decided that we couldn't have a rusty car dolly, so it was removed, sanded, primed & painted (thanks to our friend Lou for helping!):

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15007839443_92db3a11dc-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oSc6Nt)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15442009577_10b0d2522a-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pwyksr)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15604312036_c84473b1ed-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pLUbjG)

Much better!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/11/15528485280_1a04f7c596-1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pEcxEQ)

[Motown 454]

Good to see you back at it!

[digitalman2112]

Good to see you back at it!


It is good to be back. I'm really trying to get the firewall done in November so that I can move on to the front suspension. I'll feel a LOT better once the front sheet metal gets reattached and it looks like a car again :)

[digitalman2112]

Looking good so far. I can't wait until my son can get out there and help me more on my project.

It can be a bit of a battle - I have to compete with all their after-school activities, friends, netflix, video games, etc. I try to make it fun, and once I get a little better with the welding, will let them start doing some it, I think that will get them hooked :)

[digitalman2112]

4 years later...no progress. :(

Right after the last post in 2014, I was notified that my employer was going to do a spin-off of our division. We completed the spin-off, were immediately acquired, then acquired again this year. Between that and our non-profit foundation, I've been busy.

My boys are now 18 and almost 16 - with the oldest at college about an hour away.

The younger son, Drew got his first car this year (Focus ST) and is a great driver and took to the manual transmission instantly. We also built and raced a small electric kart in the Power Racing Series at Maker Faire Orlando this year. We started by purchasing an entire Chevy Volt battery and disassembling to get the 48 volt modules, then used one of the modules to power an 1800 watt electric motor.
158495

Drew has done a bunch of tube steel welding now, and can grind, etc. In another month he can make part store runs on his own. I'm excited to have a capable partner, and I bet he will be better at this work than I am very soon.

158496

Now that Maker Faire is over and some of the work stuff is settling down (hopefully), he's kicking me in the ass to get back to the Firebird.

I've spent the past 2 days catching up on the forums, new products, LS* and LT* engine options, etc. In some ways not much has changed... My vision for the Firebird is still intact, and we need to pick up where we left off. Once we get through the basics, I have some fun custom ideas, but we need to get the thing running for now :)

I've been pricing parts and my current thought is to go full DSE subframe and QUADRALink with mini tubs. I'm VERY impressed by the install videos on the DSE site, and way less intimidated by the rear cutting now that I've watched the videos.

I'm going to defer engine, brake, gas tank, radiator, etc for now and focus on all the cutting / welding / painting that comes with the suspension mods.

Time to get to work :)

[digitalman2112]

DSE subframe (black with single adj shocks) and DSE Quadralink ordered, along with DSE mini-tubs and hydratech hydroboost.

I wish DSE had a video of the mini-tub install on the convertible - I found some pics in an article online, but still a bit concerned about the surgery back there...but we will figure it out.

Yesterday I sold the original subframe, brakes & suspension parts to make room in the garage. Still have a lot of cleaning and organizing to do so that we can be productive in there. We also started investigating how to get the convertible top out of the way for all the mini-tub & quadralink work.

Stay tuned!

[digitalman2112]

Convertible top is out! The chassis manual instructions are very lacking - but we figured it out [emoji6]158940

[digitalman2112]

This weekend we will remove the top trim (the yellow piece in the pic) as well as the fuel tank, leaf springs and rear end. Once that is done, we will start on the mini-tub and quadralink install. My hope is to get those done (without paint) by New Year's day...

[Bad Bowtie]

Digitalman,
First off let me say, I think its great how you have included your boys in the build the whole way through. Like you said there are so many things pulling at younger generations today that most don't get to experience a complete car restoration.

I just wanted to mention as you are contemplating the mini tub install. I believe there was some issues with the convertible top frame and the interference of mini tubs which require special bent bars on each side to replace the bars in the factory frame which if not changed would keep the top from folding down flush to the body. Back in the day of "Frank" way before he went off the rails :ripped:, we purchased a project convertible Camaro from him and he was selling these custom bent bars to replace the factory ones which allowed the convertible top to lay completely down and flush with the body in mini tub applications. Just something to look into as you go along. You may have to fabricate your own if I recall the bars had more of an arch similar to the top of the mini tub and bent slightly offset to clear another bar on the framework.

Good luck and continued success with your build.

BB

[digitalman2112]

I just wanted to mention as you are contemplating the mini tub install. I believe there was some issues with the convertible top frame and the interference of mini tubs which require special bent bars on each side to replace the bars in the factory frame which if not changed would keep the top from folding down flush to the body. Back in the day of "Frank" way before he went off the rails :ripped:, we purchased a project convertible Camaro from him and he was selling these custom bent bars to replace the factory ones which allowed the convertible top to lay completely down and flush with the body in mini tub applications. Just something to look into as you go along. You may have to fabricate your own if I recall the bars had more of an arch similar to the top of the mini tub and bent slightly offset to clear another bar on the framework.


Thank you for highlighting it. That was one of the things that stalled me years ago. I decided to just move forward and overcome it when I get there.



I think its great how you have included your boys in the build the whole way through. Like you said there are so many things pulling at younger generations today that most don't get to experience a complete car restoration.


I'm really excited - now that they are 16 & almost 19, they are helpful in an entirely new way - including being stronger than me!

[digitalman2112]

https://youtu.be/e4YAQpTKfwY

Camera angle should have been the other direction, but hey, I remembered to do it :)

[digitalman2112]

https://youtu.be/tdRqnBIvtRY

[digitalman2112]

https://youtu.be/ATxMUmQBhJA

[digitalman2112]

Prepping the patient for mini-tub surgery by removing paint, seam sealers, and grime.

Installed 4 new shop lights (2 last weekend and 2 this weekend) so that we can see much better during this work.

My poor air compressor is running constantly, I'll probably pick up a 60 gallon 240 model this week before we go much further...


https://youtu.be/p0-VwBXG0yE


https://youtu.be/-wLErDc_uwg