Thoughts on what I just undid on my suspension?

[Erik Beckett]

My recently purchased 68 Camaro has had some suspension issues in the past but I hopefully fixed them yesterday. When I got the car in December it rode like @#$%! The previous owner used Fatman (Gforce is stamped on them) drop spindles to lower the car and QA1 coilovers as well. The car sits real low to the ground, he them proceeded to crank up or compress the coilovers all the way up to raise the car up some I guess. Anyways, the ride was horrible.

Yesterday, I installed a stock set of spindles back on the car. And I was able to decompress the coilover and lower the car down quite a bit. Maybe not all the way like previous but it still looks awesome. I assume he used the taller spindles for geometry correct? Did I do the right thing by removing those and lower the car back down with the coilovers. It rides 10 times better now but is my geometry messed up now? I know I need an alignment and I did rip/break one upper ball joint boot. Would taller ball joints help? It seems that when the car is jacked up and the weight is off the tires the upper ball joint is severly angled down.

I am saving for tubular control arms and hopefully Matt at MCB will have a set of Hotchkis springs for me soon!

Thoughts on my next steps to take? I need an alignment and specs on that would be great too! I just want a cool looking street car.

Thanks, Erik

[exwestracer]

Were the spindles actually taller, or just the pin location higher? The stock a arm geometry isn't so good... A TALLER spindle will help with that. I'd recommend setting the ride height so the lower ball joint is level with the control arm bolts. If the upper ball joint is below the upper cross shaft (probably will be), a taller spindle or upper ball joint will help the geometry. What tire size are you running in front?

[Rod]

On a First gen Camaro If you're using stock spindles the geometry is not messed up, it just needs a little help for a street car, then yes use a tall upper ball joint and a standard lower ball joint, it will help the handling some :twothumbs

[Rick D]

On a First gen Camaro If you're using stock spindles the geometry is not messed up

What Ray is saying is that just going back to a stock spindle you have really not done anything other start from zero, and a 1st gen front suspension may not be messed up it certainly is not good. If it was then there would not be the need for all the aftermarket support out there. Yes if it is ONLY going to be a street car and never used on a road corse or for autocross then it will work and not really be messed up.

[Rod]

What Ray is saying is that just going back to a stock spindle you have really not done anything other start from zero, and a 1st gen front suspension may not be messed up it certainly is not good. If it was then there would not be the need for all the aftermarket support out there. Yes if it is ONLY going to be a street car and never used on a road corse or for autocross then it will work and not really be messed up.

yes I was making it a simple place to start, of course a tall ball joint wont fix the 1968 suspension, but for daily driving its all good, next easy step is a Guldstrand Mod, upper control arms with more caster(or adjustable caster) lower control arms with a angle corrected ball joint pocket that reduces ball joint bind with the new added caster, and good 1 1/8 sway bar (hotchkis) an 8 or 9 inch wide rim, is all a better start, then you work on bump steer if needed (some camaros have less than other? i don't know why) and then rear suspension!!!
see you at the track!

[MrQuick]

erik, get your car aligned and see how it is after that. Raising the front end will change your settings over previous.

[79-TA]

On a First gen Camaro If you're using stock spindles the geometry is not messed up, it just needs a little help for a street car, then yes use a tall upper ball joint and a standard lower ball joint, it will help the handling some :twothumbs

Well, the camber gain curve on a stock Camaro is not only not good, but backwards.

[BuzzKillian]

If Ride was the only issue. I guess I don't undrstand why you wouldn't try a taller or stiffer spring, so it would not have to be so compressed on the coil over. I don't know all the particulars, but it seeems to me you could be getting coil bind or hitting your (bump stops (not likely with a taller spindle).
I am assuming that your original spindles were taller, not just dropped.
I am by no means an expert on this. Please correct me if I am wrong.

BTW I have the Tru Turn system with stock Control arms, I was able to get my alignment to 5* pos Caster, .5 neg Camber

[Erik Beckett]

Yes, the drop spindles were taller as well. They are Fatman 2" drop with 1.75" taller. The reason I took them out was due to the car sitting so low, the springs were compressed almost all the way. I could see atleast 3/4 of the threads of the shocks underneath the springs which means they were compressed alot.

Should I have kept the taller spindles and just installed a taller spring? I can still do that. They are QA1 shocks but I am not sure what size springs are on them.

I just want a good ride and nice stance. You guys have so much information here to help out fellow members, I really appreciate it.

Thanks, Erik

[dhutton]

In my experience coil over springs with a lot of preload ride like crap on the street. I think a higher rate spring would have improved your ride significantly. Also make sure your shock is roughy centered in its stroke at ride height.

[BuzzKillian]

Do you know where your shocks were as far as travel. They should be pretty close to center of their travel at ride height. It sounds to me, you were bottoming out your suspension, Witch will make it ride and handle horrible. The taller Spindle will give you more travel. I would try to find out what spring you have. Based on what I have read here and some books I have. You should have 500 - 600 lb. spring. I forgot to ask, Is your frame modified for the coil overs? (higher mounting point?) SB? BB? I know that with an unmodified frame the shocks can be pretty short, especially using a coilover.
I wonder too, With the taller dropped spindles and the shorter shock, if the previous owner tightened the spring so much trying to make it higher, that the shocks were at max travel (extended). And the Spring binding (compression) = no real suspension travel.

[exwestracer]

Erik, set the lower arms level (with the stock spindles) and see if you can live with 2" more drop in front. The taller spindles will definitely help with the camber gain geometry, but there are other ways to do that if the 2" drop is too much.

Yes, a longer spring will get the perches lower on the coilovers. If you have the "hybrid" coilovers (using the larger upper spring perch), you may not have a lot of options on spring length. I've heard there are only 2 (?) springs available for that setup.

[Smoker03]

Ive used the tall drop spindle with QA1 coilovers in the past and had no issues with them. Do the QA1s you are using have the rebound adjustment on them, or are they the non adjustable version? If you have a small block, they are probably the 350lb springs, and I would recommend going to the 450lb spring with the tall spindle. I think you will be happier with the ride.

[Erik Beckett]

I am going to try the stock spindles and QA1's were they are at until I can get some Tubular Control arms and redo the whole front end. I did just get back from the alignment shop and this is where we are at. They were kind of jerks and would not do exactly what I wanted. Here are my specs as of now:

Camber: Left 0.1 deg - Right 0.1 deg
Caster: Left 2.5 deg - Right 3 deg
Toe: Left 0.18 deg - Right 0.20 deg

The toe is what has me messed up. From David Pozzi site, I wrote down 1/16 to 1/8", how does that equate to degrees that I have speced above. Also, they would not do negative camber at all for me.


Thoughts?

Thanks, Erik

[exwestracer]

Erik,
I wouldn't get too hung up on starting out with negative camber unless it's a race car. What you really need is some camber GAIN with compression travel, which the first gen doesn't do very well. That's where the tall ball joint or spindle comes in.

I would start asking around for another alignment shop that would be willing to work with you a little better. Drive it and see what it feels like and give us some feedback.

[2gofaster]

First thing I would do is measure what your existing shock length is at ride height of the car. Then I would pull a shock off and verify it's extended length and collapsed length. A given shock will have a recommended length at the car's ride height. Before you can really do anything , you need to know what that is.

[David Pozzi]

.18 degrees on a 26" tall tire is .82" toe at the tread. .625" = 1/16". .125" = 1/8".
Angle calculator here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html

[MIKE67]

David, you left out two zeros. I know zero is nothing, but 1 5/8" toe-in?
.18 degrees at 26" = 0.082" and 1/16" = 0.0625
Erik, you have about 0.173" of toe which seems a little much for radial tires.