Tru Turn System with Stock Control Arms [Archive]

JEFFTATE

04-06-2012, 12:54 PM

PART ONE :The Kit and The Spindles
When RideTech came out with the Tru Turn Steering System , I was very interested in getting one for three reasons :
#1 - My car still had the stock , 42 year old front spindles and I was worried that one of them was going to break under the punishment of track use.
#2 - I wanted to get rid of the bumpsteer from my stock / modified / lowered suspension .
#3 - I wanted to get some real negative camber gain on the front suspension , thus improving my tire contact patch .
The Tru Turn , with it's tough G-Force Spindles , improved geometry , and new steering linkage looked to be an economical way to improve my car .

My '69 Camaro is kinda low tech , low budget , Old School . It's basically modified stock ,with a stock frame , stock control arms , the Guldstrand Mod , stock 10" brakes on the front , stock drums on the back , 175# rear leaf springs , 700# front coil springs . It's lowered about 3" up front and 2" in back . It has 245 tires up front on 17"X8" wheels with 275 tires in back on a 17"X9.5" wheel .. and a 300 hp/350ci engine .
The funny thing is , it's actually pretty fast , for what it is .
I always seem to be in the top 1/3 of the field at most of the pro-touring events ..

I've been told that , " your car is a lot faster than it looks like it ought to be " . and I'm proud of that comment .

To get a good idea of just what the Tru Turn would do for me , I wanted to put it on and leave the rest of my car as-is . To see what the improvement would be ..

A big question was , would it work with stock 1969 Camaro control arms , stock brakes , my 17" wheels , etc. ?

The Tru Turn System , of course , came meticulously packaged with complete instructions .
( RideTech always does a great job at presentation and professionalism )
( One correction on the Instructions : The bent inner tie-rod end goes on the PASSENGER SIDE to clear the IDLER ARM , not the pitman arm like it says in the instructions ..)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511216-1.jpg

JEFFTATE

04-06-2012, 01:01 PM

Here's a pic of the comparison between the stock , 43 year old spindle and the new G-Force spindle .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712013-1.jpg

Notice the beefy reinforcement of the RideTech Spindle .. This is gonna give me piece of mind , I'm not so worried about a spindle breaking ..

Here's a comparison on the car . Notice the difference in height of the center pin . The RideTech G-Force Spindle has a 2" drop , so that will give me suspension travel without the front suspension bottoming out ..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511224-1.jpg

JEFFTATE

04-06-2012, 01:18 PM

Stay tuned for part two !!

GeoffP

04-06-2012, 05:25 PM

Great job on part one - you've got me wishing I'd bought the whole kit instead of just the spindles already!

JEFFTATE

04-07-2012, 07:25 AM

Part Two :Outer Tie Rod Clearance
The next thing I did was some test fitting/mock-up to make sure the outer tie rod ends would clear with the 17" wheels .
That's a common problem with a drop spindle because you're moving the outer rim of the wheel up .. It runs into the outer tie rod end .
But , because or the compact , flat design of the RideTech outer tie-rod end , they cleared with plenty of room to spare !
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511218-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511219-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511217-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511220-1.jpg

Nothingface5384

04-07-2012, 07:50 AM

this sounds cool and all, but I thought in Ridetech description it stated the truturn setup wont work with stock control amrs ..only their strongARM??

JEFFTATE

04-07-2012, 08:18 AM

this sounds cool and all, but I thought in Ridetech description it stated the truturn setup wont work with stock control amrs ..only their strongARM??

That's a question I am researching ...
I am testing to see if the Tru Turn Steering System will work with stock arms , and what improvements will be made ..
I know the Tru Turn System will bolt up to the stock arms , but the questions are : Will there be ball-joint bind , and will there be any clearance issues , and will the suspension geometry be correct ?

RideTech recommends that The Tru Turn system be used in conjunction with their StrongArms because the suspension geometry has been worked out for optimum results , plus the StongArms give the opportunity to use the RideTech Musclebar front swaybar , and the ball joints in the StrongArms have larger working angles ...among other things .

BuzzKillian

04-07-2012, 08:20 AM

this sounds cool and all, but I thought in Ridetech description it stated the truturn setup wont work with stock control amrs ..only their strongARM??

I have Tru Turn Installed with stock control arms and stock brakes. That being said, I don't have my car running and have not aligned it yet.

BuzzKillian

04-07-2012, 08:35 AM

PART ONE :

My '69 Camaro is kinda low tech , low budget , Old School . It's basically modified stock ,with a stock frame , stock control arms , the Guldstrand Mod , stock 10" brakes on the front , stock drums on the back , 175# rear leaf springs , 700# front coil springs . It's lowered about 3" up front and 2" in back . It has 245 tires up front on 17"X8" wheels with 275 tires in back on a 17"X9.5" wheel .. and a 300 hp/350ci engine .
The funny thing is , it's actually pretty fast , for what it is .
I always seem to be in the top 1/3 of the field at most of the pro-touring events ..

I've been told that , " your car is a lot faster than it looks like it ought to be " . and I'm proud of that comment .

To get a good idea of just what the Tru Turn would do for me , I wanted to put it on and leave the rest of my car as-is . To see what the improvement would be ..

A big question was , would it work with stock 1969 Camaro control arms , stock brakes , my 17" wheels , etc. ?

The Tru Turn System , of course , came meticulously packaged with complete instructions .
( RideTech always does a great job at presentation and professionalism )
( One correction on the Instructions : The bent inner tie-rod end goes on the PASSENGER SIDE to clear the IDLER ARM , not the pitman arm like it says in the instructions ..)

I'm with you on the Improvments in stages concept. I kinda wish I put my car together stock first, so I had a baseline to compare "Bang for the Buck" improvments.
I think you're a lot better driver then you give yourself credit for.

I got one of the very first kits. It did not have a bent tie rod in the kit. Do you know if the bent inner tie rod is necessary on all applications? It looks close on mine, but I don't think it will be a problem.

JEFFTATE

04-07-2012, 09:23 AM

I'm with you on the Improvments in stages concept. I kinda wish I put my car together stock first, so I had a baseline to compare "Bang for the Buck" improvments.
I think you're a lot better driver then you give yourself credit for.

I got one of the very first kits. It did not have a bent tie rod in the kit. Do you know if the bent inner tie rod is necessary on all applications? It looks close on mine, but I don't think it will be a problem.

The bent tie rod on mine is very close to the idler arm when the steering is all the way in one direction .
Every car is different , so make sure you have clearance ..

BuzzKillian

04-07-2012, 10:39 AM

Good info Jeff... keeep it coming

JEFFTATE

04-08-2012, 04:31 PM

Part Three : Stock 10" Brakes .

My next question was , Will the stock 10" brake rotors clear ?
With the 2" drop spindle , the center of the brake rotor moves up 2" , and there was an interference with the nut that attaches the steering arm to the spindle ..
On the stock spindle , these nuts ( or bolt heads ) tuck inside the inside diameter of the rotor. The rotor rotates around them .
But on the drop spindle , the nuts run right into the rotor .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/825112211-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/825112221-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/825112231-1.jpg

JEFFTATE

04-08-2012, 04:42 PM

The solution was shaved down nuts and shorter bolts , which the guys at RideTech supplied me with ..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712014-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712021-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics003-1.jpg

Make Sure , Make Sure , Make Sure to use High Strength Locktite on these fasteners and torque them accordingly with a torque wrench ...

The shaved nuts and shorter bolts gave the clearance required between them and the rotor , but they still pushed the dust shield into the rotor , so I cut some nice holes through the dust shield to allow clearance ..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712017-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics010-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511253-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511244-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics011-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics012-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics013-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics014-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511264-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511265-1.jpg

Don't laugh at my ugly dust shield , I painted it later ..

JEFFTATE

04-10-2012, 01:07 PM

Part Four : Brake Caliper Mounting Bracket Modification.

Another thing to note is that the brake caliper mounting bracket will not lay flat against the spindle in the same area as it did on the stock spindle .
This is partly because of the drop spindle design and partly because of the beefiness of the RideTech spindle .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511241-1.jpg

The solution is to trim a piece off the bracket ..
So , I marked on the back side of the bracket where it needed to be cut .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511242-1.jpg

And here's what it looked like after the trimming .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712018-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511243-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics004-1.jpg

MrQuick

04-10-2012, 05:52 PM

nice work Jeff, I was hoping to do more testing on this set up but we just got crazy busy at the shop. You know what would be nice is if the lower holes were threaded so you can use a bolts or studs in that location.

GeoffP

04-10-2012, 06:25 PM

JEFFTATE

04-11-2012, 07:42 AM

I'm looking forward to see what you find out with bump steer and the stock control arms! I only bought the spindles since I figured it wouldn't help much and because I want to keep my Hotchkis front coils instead of going coil over.

Geoff , I am keeping my Landrum 700# coil springs , I'm not using coilovers either .
Everything on my car is staying the same , the front coil springs , stock a-arms , stock type sway bar ..

ehummelman

04-11-2012, 09:33 AM

I'm not sure how I feel about shaving my nuts as you did. LOL

Seriously though, thanks for the writeup Jeff. I'm also watching to see how these setups fit with different options. It sounds like every car is going to be different unless you buy their entire package which can be pretty pricey, especially if your current brakes won't work.

JEFFTATE

04-11-2012, 10:26 AM

I'm not sure how I feel about shaving my nuts as you did. LOL

Rodney at RideTech did it for me . LOL !

carguy502

04-11-2012, 10:33 AM

There is another option regarding the nuts:

I originally got my G-force spindles from FatMan back in the day. Near as I can tell, they are identical to the Ridetech pieces. Instead of nuts with a taper, they used Allen head bolts that had a countersunk taper on the head and conventional Nylock nuts. I recently upgraded to the True Turn and utilized the old FatMan hardware. These bolts sit flush with the spindle. Here is an example (wrong sizes listed):

http://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-head-cap-screws/=h28qfw

Best,
Don

JEFFTATE

04-11-2012, 10:57 AM

Part Five : Brake Bracket Bolts
Also note ,
On the original / stock setup , one of the bolts that fastened the brake bracket to the spindle doubled as a bolt that fastened the steering arm to the spindle . ( both bolts actually fastened the steering arm )
With the Tru Turn System , the steering arms are fastened to spindle by the , afformentioned shaved nuts and bolts .
But if you are using a stock brake bracket , it still attaches to the original holes as it did from the factory ..
The original factory brake bracket bolts were fairly long because they went through the bracket , knuckle , and steering arm .
So , the original bolts could not be used in these brake bracket holes anymore ..
Anyway , I got some grade 8 shanked bolts and cut them to length and locktighted them appropriately.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712022-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712016-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712020-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712024-1.jpg

Notice the deep shank on this bolt , if you use an unshaked bolt in this position , the brake bracket will be allowed to move . Make sure to use a shanked bolt ..and locktite !!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/012712023-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/Jeffspics009-1.jpg

Here's a picture of the whole thing bolted together .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511253-1.jpg

Vicinity

04-17-2012, 12:53 PM

Jeff, quick question, what size wheels/tires are those in the first few pics?

JEFFTATE

04-18-2012, 10:11 AM

The wheels that I currently have are American Racing Torque Thrust II's ( purchased in 2003 ).
The fronts are 17 x 8 with 5" backspacing , with a 245/45/17 tire.
The rears are 17 x 9.5" with 5 3/4" backspacing , with a 275/40/17 tire .

PLEASE NOTE :
These wheels are not my optimum choice , I bought them several years ago ( before I knew better ).
Currently , if I was building a '69 Camaro from scratch , I'd minitub the car ( front and rear tubs ) , use 18" wheels with a 275 ( or 295 ) tire up front , and a 335 ( or 345 ) tire in back ... The wider tire , the more grip ..

But the 17's are still in good shape , and I don't have the funds to upgrade yet , plus they actually work with the Tru Turn Steering System.
So , they are gonna get used ..

JEFFTATE

04-22-2012, 05:50 PM

Part Six : Measuring Stock Camber Curve .

I wanted to get measurements of the camber through the suspension travel , before and after the TruTurn install .
So , I started with the stock measurements .
I took the front coil springs out and moved the suspension all the way from fully drooped ( extended ) to all the way up (compressed ). And measured about every inch of travel .

Now , keep in mind that my car only had about 6 inches of suspension travel with this stock configuration.
And with the car at ride height ( The car being lowered with cut springs ) I only had about 1 inch of suspension travel before it was on the bumpstops . So the stock/lowered suspension bottomed out pretty quickly , resulting in little negative camber gain , loss of grip and understeer .
It would overpower the available grip of the front tires and slide across the ground ..

The following 7 pictures will show what the camber gain was with the stock spindle and the Guldstrand Mod .

All the way extended. 1.5+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511246-1.jpg

1"compressed. 1.7+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511247-1.jpg

2"compressed. Still 1.7+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511248-1.jpg

3"compressed. 1.4+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511249-1.jpg

4"compressed. 1.0+ camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511250-1.jpg

5"compressed. .4+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511251-1.jpg

Fully compressed. .1- Camber ! Finally some negative camber .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511252-1.jpg

As you can see , I didn't get negative camber until the suspension bottomed out on the bumpstops .
Now , another thing to consider is that the car was on 4 jackstands when I measuerd this , so the actual numbers may not be 100% accurate .
The car may not have been at the exact angle as it would be with the tires on it , while on the ground .
But you get the idea , very little negative camber was generated by the stock setup ..
Plus I had little suspension travel to let the suspension be compliant and work ..

JEFFTATE

04-29-2012, 05:23 PM

Part Seven : Measuring Camber Curve with the Tru Turn Spindles .

Next , I wanted to get a measurement of the Camber Curve with the Tru Turn tall spindles installed ..
With these tall spindles , I got 9 inches of front suspension travel .

All the way extended :(fully drooped) . 4.0+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511254-1.jpg

1" Compressed. 3.5+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511255-1.jpg

2" Compressed. 2.9+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511256-1.jpg

3" Compressed. 2.1+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511257-1.jpg

4" Compressed. 1.1+ Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511258-1.jpg

5" Compressed. 0.0 Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511259-1.jpg

6" Compressed. 1.3- Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511260-1.jpg

7" Compressed. 2.6- Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511261-1.jpg

8" Compressed. 4.1- Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511262-1.jpg

Fully Compressed. 5.3- Camber
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511263-1.jpg

The Negative Camber reading really jumped up there at the end ..

GeoffP

04-29-2012, 05:56 PM

It sure did! Mine are installed - guessing yours are too and that you're just formatting these posts to make them pretty! :) Great job on this BTW!!!

JEFFTATE

04-30-2012, 04:36 AM

I'm not done yet ..

JEFFTATE

04-30-2012, 12:50 PM

Part Eight: Checking for Balljoint Bind .

While I had the front spring out , and was getting all these camber measurements , I checked for ball joint bind .
I put the suspension all the way up and all the way down and rotated the steering knuckle all the way from lock to lock in every concievable direction ..
I didn't detect any ball joint bind ..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/04/82511268-1.jpg

JEFFTATE

05-01-2012, 06:10 AM

It sure did! Mine are installed - guessing yours are too and that you're just formatting these posts to make them pretty! :) Great job on this BTW!!!

Yes , I'm just doing the install thread in stages .. to keep it straight in my brain .

JEFFTATE

05-01-2012, 12:46 PM

Part Nine: Control Arm Angles , Sway Bar Links , Trimmed Bumpstops ..

As I've already stated , I've gotten more suspension travel with the Tru Turn tall/drop spindle .
This is because , with the outer ball joints further apart , there is more distance between the two bump stops , so , there's where more suspension travel comes from .

Also with the drop spindle design , I'm starting out with the lower control arm at a more desirable angle than it was with the stock arms .
With the stock ( lowered ) setup at the desired ride height , the lower control arm was just about level .
In other words , the lower ball joint was at the same height as the lower control arm bushings.

With the 1 1/2" drop spindle , I'm gaining some of that lowering with the spindle design , so the lower arm is back to an angle where it can move through the camber curve better .

If you look in the following pictures , you will see that the lower bump stop is a few inches away from the frame .
With the stock setup , it was 1/2" from the frame .

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/82511267-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/82511266-1.jpg

Also , I had to change the length of the swaybar endlinks to get the swaybar about level .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics016-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics015-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics002-1.jpg

I went ahead and trimmed the lower bumpstops to take advantage of the extra negative camber gain .
That way , the wheel can travel further up in the wheelwell and get into that negative camber zone .
But I left enough bumpstop there to keep the shock or the tire from bottoming out .
Here's a couple of pics of the trimmed bumpstops.
Notice the bare metal spots close to the ball joint , I was thinking of welding steering stops there , but so far haven't needed them . The tire only barely scrubbs if turned all the way to lock , which I only do while parking .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04328-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04329-1.jpg

JEFFTATE

05-01-2012, 01:10 PM

Part Ten : Billet Tie Rod Adjusters , Inner tie-rod end draglink relocating bracket .

The Tru-Turn came with RideTech's great Billet Tie Rod Adjuster sleeves .
These adjusters are so nice and are ten times easier to move than the old stock type adjusters .
They are very smooth .
I like the flat joint on the outer link too , it saves space between it and the wheel .

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics006-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics007-1.jpg

The inner tie rod end draglink relocating bracket attaches to the existing center link.
Just make sure you follow the illustrated directions correctly when you put this on ..
Make sure you get the tapered pins , washers , and cotter pins all in place !
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics017-1.jpg

One concern of mine was whether this draglink relocating bracket would clear my oil pan ,
It did .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics018-1.jpg

JEFFTATE

05-02-2012, 06:50 AM

Part Eleven : HEADER Clearance !!

One thing that was an interference fit on the car was the clearance between the passenger side header and the inner tie-rod end .
With the TruTurn System , the inner tie rod end is moved up and rearward due to the thickness of the center relocating bracket , ( this upward relocation is done to help correct bump-steer ).

This is with a set of Hooker Super Comp Jet Hot Coated 1 3/4" tube headers on a small-block Chevy Engine ..
I made marks on the header where the interference took place .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/02/cid__df36c64002e0443ea73ff299b4db168c_-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04224-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04223-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04226-1.jpg

I thought about having the passenger side header cut and modified , but after leaving it at a custom fabrication shop for two weeks without them ever working on it , ( and with a cost of $200 to modify it , plus more money to recoat it ) , I decided not to ruin it by cutting it up. I hated to hurt that beautiful Jet Hot coating ..
I decide to buy a different set of headers and just sell the Hooker Headers .( They had too big of a primary tube size for a stock 350cui engine anyway , I bought them years ago with the intention of upgrading to a 383cui )

So , I bought a set of Summit Brand ceramic coated 1 5/8" primary tube headers .
They are routed differently ( kind of a swept back design )

Here's some comparison pics of the Hooker Super Comp above the Summit Brand .
Notice the straight line in the concrete to give a reference to the interference area .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/02/012712001-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712003-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712002-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712004-1.jpg

Of course , I did have to cut , reposition , and reweld the collectors on the exhaust .
I do not have a great deal of welding expertise , but I have always been determined to do everything I can by myself . ( it's a pride thing )
So , I taught myself to weld my exhaust .
I'm not posting any pictures . Lets just say it's " functional " , but not pretty .. leave it at that ..

The passenger side header was routed a little closer to the engine , so I had to re-route the starter wiring and I made a heatshield for the starter ( by myself ) , because I just didn't like any of the store bought heatshields ..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712008-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712007-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/Jeffspics008-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712010-1.jpg

Here's a final install pic of that pass side header .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/012712011-1.jpg

nicks67camaro

05-02-2012, 07:29 AM

excellent...Thank you very much for the header information. Was there any driver side interference?

JEFFTATE

05-02-2012, 10:02 AM

excellent...Thank you very much for the header information. Was there any driver side interference?

There was no interference on the drivers side with either the Hooker or Summit headers .

JEFFTATE

05-08-2012, 12:20 PM

Part Twelve : Hidden Ride Height Adjuster Modification

My Camaro still has factory style front coil springs . ( Although mine are 700# Landrum Springs ).
I'm using some of the AFCO Ride Height Adjusters that have been mounted in the upper spring pocket .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04287-1.jpg

One problem that I've had over the years is that the springs are 5" outside diameter ( like they are supposed to be ) , but the inside diameter was larger than the spring adjuster .
So , the spring would walk it's way over to one side and rub on the spring pocket ( occasionally )
So , I put a urethane spring spacer on the spring that hugs the ride height adjuster ..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04297-1.jpg
Now the spring stays centered !!

Another problem was that the QA1 shocks are larger diameter than the old factory shocks ..
As the lower control arm swings through it's travel , the bottom mounting point of the shock moves in an arc ..
This arc causes the side of the shock to rub against the inside of the spring adjuster and then move away again ..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04290-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04289-1.jpg
The solution was to move the hidden spring adjuster all the way to the outside of the upper spring pocket , instead of mounting it in the very center .. ( Only about 1/8 " more towards outside , but it gave the needed clearance ) .

These spring adjusters gave me the ability to fine tune the front ride height , but to adjust them , I had to remove the shocks , dsiconnect the swaybar , and disconnect the lower balljoint .
Then pull the spring out and turn the plate .
Then re-assemble ..
I decided to cut slots in the subframe , on the outside if the spring pocket , to reach in with a screwdriver or prybar and adjust them , . ( kinda like a drum brake adjuster )
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04302-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04301-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04300-1.jpg

This also required that I cut notches all the way around the adjuster plate .( 63 to be exact )
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04292-1.jpg

And then I painted different color stripes on the adjuster plate so I could tell when the plate had completed one turn ( or 1/4 turn , or 1/2 turn ) . You can see the colors through the slot in the subframe .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04295-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04296-1.jpg

Now here is a picture of the slotted , painted assembly , with the urethane spring spacer ( for centering ) installed .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04299-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04298-1.jpg

And here's a pic looking through the slot at spring adjuster .
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04303-1.jpg

I still can't adjust the ride height while there is full weight on the front suspension , BUT , I can adjust it by jacking up the car and taking some of the pressure off the front springs , then sticking a prybar in the slot .
They are quite hard to turn , but it beats all the disassembly I use to have to do ..

BuzzKillian

05-08-2012, 02:20 PM

Part Seven : Measuring Camber Curve with the Tru Turn Spindles .

Next , I wanted to get a measurement of the Camber Curve with the Tru Turn tall spindles installed ..
With these tall spindles , I got 9 inches of front suspension travel .

[The Negative Camber reading really jumped up there at the end ..

Are you using the Guldstrand Mod when your checking this?

JEFFTATE

05-08-2012, 06:33 PM

Are you using the Guldstrand Mod when your checking this?

Yes , the car has had the Guldstrand Mod for several years.
And I left the upper arms mounted in that position .

GeoffP

05-09-2012, 03:24 AM

Jeff do you think the camber gain is too aggressive with the Guldstrand Mod and tall spindles?

JEFFTATE

05-09-2012, 04:49 AM

Jeff do you think the camber gain is too aggressive with the Guldstrand Mod and tall spindles?

I don't know the answer to that question Geoff . I don't have a suspension design background to know the difference .
I have driven the car a good bit ( and done a track event , and driven back and forth about 800 miles roundtrip to the event ) .
The front grip is much better .
I haven't seen any sign of uneven tire wear.
I figure if the G-Mod was too aggressive for this tall spindle , I'd lose grip becasue the tire was tilted in too far under compression .
But that hasn't happened .
It seems to be ok .

JEFFTATE

05-11-2012, 12:04 PM

Part Thirteen: Alignment at Home !

Yes , I do my own alignments .
Call me a glutton for punishment , call me a nut , But I enjoy learning new skills and making sure it's done right .
It would probably save money and time to have a local shop do it , but I trust almost no one with my car.
So , I have an SPC ( Specialty Products Company ) alignment gauge . It works pretty good if you get it calibrated right and follw the directions .
I have had the alignment on the Camaro checked after I've done it at home , and it was within 10% of a digital alignment machine ..So , it's accurate enough .
Also , when I do it myself , I can experiment with different settings .
I tape off a nice square on the level floor , use a long straight edge , some greased steel plates for turntables , and the alignment gauge , and in a few trial and effort sequences , and a few test drives , I'm done .
( Actually it took me several evenings after work , an hour or two at a time )

I was able to get ,
On the Drivers Side :
1 degree negative Camber
4.1 degree's positive Caster

On the Passengers Side :
1.1 degree's negative Camber
4.3 degree's positive Caster

and Toe : 1/16 " IN

With these settings , the car doesn't drift and the steering is sharp.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04312-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04311-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04310-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04309-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/05/DSC04313-1.jpg

GeoffP

05-11-2012, 05:36 PM

Jeff - I noticed a HUGE difference in my car at RTOS with the spindles. I think it's one of the best mods I've done to my car since I've had it (other than the LS1). I could not believe how well balanced and tuned my car felt especially once I started getting used to it. I definitely recommend the RideTech setup for any 1st gen Camaro or Nova with the same subframe. Thanks for the great write up on this - I'm really impressed!

JEFFTATE

05-11-2012, 06:39 PM

Thanks Geoff, I hope the info helps .

JEFFTATE

05-12-2012, 06:12 PM

Part Fourteen : Final Driving Impressions .

Well , I drove the car 325 miles to the Run to the Old South event last weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park in Kershaw , SC. , drove the heck out of the car on the track , drove up to Charlotte , NC. , and drove 315 miles home .

It really drives a lot better than before ( on the small roads and highways ).
The new alignment specs make it steer much better , less "darty" than it used to be .
And the bumpsteer I used to have is gone !!
There are no uneven tire wear characteristics at all .

On the track ( Roadcourse and Autocross ) , I have a good bit more front grip . I don't have the usual pushing and "scrubbing" that used to destroy my front tires with the stock set-up.
And the steering input is much better .

I won the "Long Distance Award" , the "Hard Charger Award " , for trying so hard .

So , I've answered my original question .
The Tru Turn Steering System will work very well with Stock Control Arms and Stock Brakes on a First Gen Camaro ...
It's a great low-buck improvement .

TheJDMan

05-12-2012, 07:14 PM

GeoffP

05-13-2012, 05:32 PM

Steve - it's odd that you can't find a shop to do the alignment to your specs. Both shops in my small town have had no problem whatsoever aligning my 68 to my specs. One tried to add his own "improvements" to my specs the first time he aligned it - I took it right back and said ok I tried your "improvements" now put it at the specs I asked for. The changes weren't huge but made a HUGE improvement between his specs and mine. Don't ask what the differences were - that was something like 3 years ago. Just sharing my experience!

Jeff - the only thing I'm curious of is if you measured the bump steer on your car with the stock arms? I didn't feel any bump steer at RTOS but that may be due to my inexperience. However I did notice quite a bit of bump steer at the last event I went to (RTTH two years ago).

JEFFTATE

05-14-2012, 07:02 AM

Jeff,
I'm in the same boat as you. No one locally seems to be smart enough to align my car. One place even tried to use stock 68 alignment specs with my DSE subframe. NOT! I purchased set of tow plates which make setting tow a simple process using two tapes.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Longacre-Toe-Plates,502.html?brandName=LONGACRE&page=3

I still need to buy that caster/camber tool you have. Can you tell me more about how you greased the steel plates? I was thinking of something similar.

There are some local guys that can do my alignment , I just want to do it myself , because my standard of accuracy is higher than theirs ..

I bought the SPC Alignment tool from Mark Savitske at Savitske Classic and Custom .
http://scandc.com/new/

I used a small ( 10"wide by 10"long ) 1/8 " thick steel plate under all 4 wheels ( to keep it level )and greased the front ones with wheel bearing grease . It cleans up later ...
You just grease the entire surface of the plate that is in contact with the floor .. (not the tire side that's in contact with the rubber tire, of course ..)

JEFFTATE

05-14-2012, 07:09 AM

Jeff - the only thing I'm curious of is if you measured the bump steer on your car with the stock arms? I didn't feel any bump steer at RTOS but that may be due to my inexperience. However I did notice quite a bit of bump steer at the last event I went to (RTTH two years ago).

Geoff , I do not have an accurate way of measuring bumpsteer , so I'm just going by feel ..
I guess I could have bolted a steel or aluminum bar to the wheel hub (rotor), and moved the suspension all the way up and down , and measured the in and out movement of that bar ...
I just didn't get around to it ..yet .

kengi1600

06-10-2012, 05:18 AM

Great write up thanks!Will try this soon.

MCB Matt

06-11-2012, 03:14 PM

Great job Jeff. I know it took a lot of time and patience to do the work and document/photograph it all but now lots of guys can see exaclty whats involved and what an improvement it is for under 1k....$$$ well spent!

Thanks again for the writeup

shmoov69

06-11-2012, 07:43 PM

DarkoNova

06-11-2012, 08:12 PM

It's good to know that the system works with stock arms. I was going to buy the Strongarms until I noticed they're setup for coilovers or airbags ONLY, with no standard spring provision. So that means I'd have to buy coilovers or bags along with the arms.

Definitely not in the budget right now.

JEFFTATE

06-12-2012, 06:42 AM

Jeff, ok you can see I'm really deliberating this! LOL! What would the advantages be with the Ridetech a arms, other than weight and pretty and all? Is there any REAL noticeable performance gain?
Thanks!

Jimmy ,
The Ride Tech StrongArms would give you better static Caster and Camber settings for your alignment .
And better negative camber gain during suspension compression .
Plus , they are lighter , and you can attach the Ride Tech modular Musclebar , front sway bar, to them .
The Musclebar gives you more tire clearance up front because of it's flat and angled arms that go around the tire .
And they use high quality ball joints that are installed and designed to work without ball joint bind at the extreme angles of the lowered car .

MCB Matt

06-12-2012, 08:07 AM

The whole package....arms and coilover is very affordable compared to others arms alone.

Let me know if you need a member $$ on the setup....just need to know which coilover you want.

Matt

shmoov69

11-26-2012, 05:17 PM

BTT. Jeff, how you like the setup after several months??

GeoffP

11-26-2012, 07:05 PM

Hey Jimmy,

I don't know if Jeff will chime in on this or not because his new job seems to be keeping him very busy (don't know this for sure other than he hasn't been online as much since he started the new job). I also know he did something (broke) to the engine in the 69 and he said he was planning something different engine-wise so I'm guessing he hasn't driven the car much in the last few months. Don't quote me on this stuff - just trying to help so you wouldn't get your hopes up thinking you'd get a quick answer in case Jeff doesn't happen to see this in the coming hours/days/weeks.

shmoov69

11-26-2012, 07:10 PM

Thanks Geoff, Appreciate the info for sure!
Anyone else that has made the change with the TT and had a chance to drive and beat on it for quite a while? Just trying to make a quick decision.

GeoffP

11-27-2012, 04:12 AM

It's the least I can do... I just know that if I'm looking for info on something that I want it ASAP. I'm definitely not trying to speak for Jeff as I have no real info about the Tru Turn other than what I've seen of the 48 Hour Camaro in action, Jeff's write up and what info I've learned from talking with Jeff and Brett at events. I'm probably going to order a Tru Turn upgrade kit for my car today before the free shipping deal runs out.

marolf101x

11-27-2012, 04:33 AM

I'm sure you are looking for "real world" experience and not advertising. . .so here goes (sort of). The 48 Hour Camaro has been running this set up since it's inception (it was first developed and tested on this car). Nearly every weekend the car was thrashed and thrashed hard. As I cannot attend every event, and Bret has the 33, the 48 Hour car had quite a few different drivers over the summer. . .sometimes multiple drivers on the same weekend.
Nothing has fallen off, nothing has broke, and we even won a few events along the way. (Run Through the Hills autocross, Optima Qualifier at Road America autocross, 3rd on the roadcourse at Road America, etc).

I can honestly tell you this is flat out the best handling Camaro we have ever built. Bret keeps telling me to drive the 33, but I keep pushing him off so I can drive the 48 Hour car!

Your question seems to focus more on "time on the vehicle" than anything else. Is there something specific you are looking for?

shmoov69

11-27-2012, 09:58 AM

Thanks Britt, really what I was asking was what you stated. Real world experience and not advertising, mainly because I'm a normal guy and not an experienced driver, so that "extra tenth" isn't that important to me, just the real world experience instead of "the latest and greatest" so to speak.

I'll prolly be giving y'all a call here in a little bit to make an order. But I can't to everything at once, can I get the upper Strongarms and leave the stock lowers and springs? I know some of the guys that answer the phone just want to sell the complete kit only.

Thanks!

regal454

11-27-2012, 10:18 AM

Jeff,

Great write up on your Tru-Turn install. I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on one in the near future. Also, congrats on your new job at DSE, they are really great people over there. And, welcome to Mooresville, NC. I'll look for you at the local cruises next year.

Marc

marolf101x

11-27-2012, 10:52 AM

Well, luckily I don't have to sell our parts. . .I just have to make stuff that works and people want to buy! Can't you tell I'd make one hell of a salesman!

We offer upper control arms, lower control arms, spindles, TruTurn, etc separately so you can build the car in stages. (This is how I have to build my personal projects.)

The upper and lower control arms were designed for a lowered ride height, so the ball joint angles were changed in relation to the new height and caster was added (depending on the vehicle and version we moved just the upper, or both the upper and the lower). You should be fine even if you are at stock height, but you'll want to stroke the suspension to make sure you don't reach ball joint bind, and you'll need to pay attention to how many spacers you use when you align it. A stack of spacers is fine, but it looks crappy.

nicks67camaro

11-27-2012, 11:06 AM

shmoov69

11-27-2012, 11:06 AM

Thanks Britt! Needless to say I like a car sitting LOW! My car sits way too low to be completely functional right now, but it looks good!! LOL! I'll give y'all a call and get some stuff on the way.

marolf101x

11-27-2012, 12:31 PM

Nick,

We don't have a template to show header clearance as the template would be the adapter plate supplied in the kit. It's 1/2" steel and has bends in it, so making even a cardboard template may not work too well.

Our deal is if you buy the kit and it hits your headers, and you don't want to change the headers we'll return the kit at full price (so long as it's in re-sell-able condition). "no harm, no foul".

nicks67camaro

11-27-2012, 12:47 PM

Thanks!

shmoov69

11-27-2012, 04:35 PM

FYI. Ordered the Truturn setup and upper Strongarms. Need to find some springs that aren't hacked (like mine are!) and maybe some shocks too.
Anxious to see the difference! Anyone have an idea on the alignment specs that are needed with this setup?

brownz

11-27-2012, 06:02 PM

In a nut shell would you say that I could run a tru turn system with stock upper and lower control arms and still run a 275 tire? I will not have control arms for a while. I know that I will not get the best results this way but I would just need to run it like that until I could get control arms. Kinda in your boat with the budget build. Also how did these work with lowering springs?

shmoov69

08-20-2013, 08:50 PM

BTT!! Going to hijack Jeff's thread here since it's so helpful! LoL!
Ok, my car has been dead since December 1st and now I'm getting it back together slowly. I've been having some minor trouble because the instructions are not too good and the illustrations leave the washers out, which now I have a few washers out! (Is that bad?). I'm not real sure how to torque the studs because they say 100 lb/ft on one side with 35 lb/ft on the other side with no real way to hold it without chewing up the taper. How am I supposed to do that?? Also, on the outer stud, they won't seat into the steering arm deep enough to get the cotter key in, actually on one I got it in but had to redrill the castle nut since the stud isn't drilled straight. Anyway, on the other one the hole isn't up "high enough" to get a cotter key thru. What are your suggestions guys? I'm kind of frustrated about it since I have had to disassemble this several times because I'm "guessing" exactly how things go on some of the small parts.
Thanks!