Monroe Handler

[feeble]

Backstory: I owned a 76 Cobra II in high school 25+ years ago. My situation allowed me to buy another in 2005 and I turned it into a nice driver with typical bolt ons. I've always lusted after a Monroe Handler Mustang IIs and the opportunity to buy one popped up on eBay in late 2010. I was somewhat familiar with this particular car as the owner had registered himself on the forums at MustangII.net and posted pictures.


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The owner ended up listing the car on eBay and I purchased the car in late 2010 never having never seen it in person. I knew before I bought it I didn't like the wheels and my plan was to part out my existing Mustang II, keeping the parts I wanted for the new car and selling the rest. From the pictures I thought it looked pretty good but my love for all things Handler clouded my vision and I didn't vet the car nearly as well as I should have (18" wheels with stock 9" brakes, exhaust tubing roll bar, was supposed to be a King Cobra and wasn't, etc, etc, the list is almost endless)

Long story short, the car wasn't as nearly as nice in person as it was described to me and as shown in the pictures. The front subframe and floor were damaged and I didn't the realize the extent of the damage until after my other Mustang was gone. In frustration, anger and disappointment, I ended up stripping the car I bought on eBay, cutting it up and scrapping it having driven it only 3 miles. Oddly though, it felt good.


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Fast forwarding to today, I have a replacement Cobra II shell now that I am building and adding the Monroe handler body salvaged from the eBay car. I am a couple hours drive to the SORC in Nebraska and the Mid-American Motorplex near Omaha. A few of my co-workers also auto-x regularly and Thunder Valley dragway is less than an hour away. This car is being built to run at these events and have tried to find the overlap in all of their various rules and regulations. I don't expect to be competitive (at first if ever) but I do want to have fun and increase my skills. The car will also be driven on the street (Power Tour maybe someday) but not daily driven. Although I'll take it to car shows, I'm not building it to show, I want to run this hard and I want the limit to be me, not the car. I expect it will end up in a blurry area somewhere between street fighter and pro-touring.


I've read all of the info I can find on Alcino's Mustang II and he was able to do a lot with his driving skill, continual tweaks / tuning and a set of sticky tires. The more I read on this site and others though, it is readily apparent that, out of the box, the Mustang II has a number of shortcomings that don't really make it ideally suited for my intended usage. The tires and brakes are small, the control arms are too short and have poor geometry, the weight distribution is poor and the uni-body has a lot of flex. The car I love is the car I love though so some changes are in order. Nothing is really off the table except that whatever I do, I don't want to change the wheelbase, the Monroe Handler body and I'd like to keep the crossbreeding of parts from other makes to a minimum. Nothing against any of the others; I used to own a Camaro in fact. I like all cars and things mechanical, but I bleed blue. My budget is not unlimited but my situation changed again recently and I should be able to build the car I've always wanted, even though it will take several years.


I have been a mechanical designer for almost 20 years, use 3D CAD software and can design just about anything for this that I need to. I'm not the most experienced fabricator but I should gain much needed experience with this project. I think I have a pretty good handle on the rear suspension and have designed a 3-link and bought components from Fays, Spohn & Ridetech (sorry Monroe, I don't think you have anything to offer this Handler except the name)


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It is looking more and more like the car wants to have a full frame. It will cause a few problems and delay things a bit, but overall, should be an improvement. I don't really have any concerns about designing and building the frame but the front suspension has me a bit worried. The Wilwood Pro spindle looks better than the stock spindle but also has a few shortcomings from my understanding. When I get to that point, I would appreciate any advice on front suspension geometry and design anyone can offer. I have the weight distribution on a stock Mustang II but don't have an exact CG height. I'm building in as much adjustability as I can into both the front and rear suspension and expect that once I get the car on the road, things may have to be redone.


In addition to the members of MustangII.net, I have pulled a great deal of inspiration from many of the projects here on this forum, most notably:



$5000 budget Mustang: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?38420-5000-budget-Mustang


Project BLUEprint, 1965 Falcon: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?58842-Project-BLUEprint-1965-Falcon


1967 Mustang Coupe, Project "Code Blue": https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?65897-1967-Mustang-Coupe-Project-quot-Code-Blue-quot



All of you folks really do ground breaking work here, thank you.



(to be continued)

[dug]

3d renderings look pretty good. I look forward to seeing updates (pictures)

[BulldawgMusclecars]

Looking forward to this one!

[Kenova]

......Long story short, the car wasn't as nearly as nice in person as it was described to me and as shown in the pictures....

I hear of that happening far too often. It's good to see you have recovered from it.
If I remember correctly, was the Monroe Handler not built in a series of Hot Rod articles as a give-away prize of some sort? I seem to remember yellow paint too. Lots of yellow paint. lol

Ken

[feeble]

Yes, they were rather awash in yellow. I'll probably stick with a dark color.

Got the coil overs this week and a CAD file for them from Ride Tech. Thanks go out to Darren and Beth for their help.

The 9" center section (TT, 4.11, 31 spline) and the rest of the Del-Sphere joints arrived this week also. That is probably about it for parts for a while. I need to determine if I can put a full frame under this car they way I want given my available resources so will be taking some more time to lay things out. I don't want to cut on the car or buy more parts until I'm sure. All of this head scratching and design time should pay off during the build.

Weekend CAD money shot. Designed the shock mounts and got started on the frame. One of the rear legs of roll bar will mount to the 6 x 6 plate above the shock.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

All of the parts are cut for the rotisserie, so some progress is being made on that front.

On the car itself, not much to report but I did get it leveled side to side and front to back to facilitate accurate measurements. As it sits today, I have a long way to go:

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[78CobraII]

Glad to see you are making progress on your project. The Handler shall live again! :)

I lusted after that car for years...it looked really good in pics and had a nice spce sheet too.

[feeble]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Right now I am trying to determine what factors need to be considered as I am working through this front suspension and steering design. Like any design, all of it is a compromise and finding the right balance of nominal values (and range and granularity of adjustment on either side of nominal) is proving tricky as this is new to me.

I have a lot to learn and the experience of the members of this forum is proving invaluable during this process.

[Bryce]

Nice CAD!

[SVTforme]

Nice CAD!

What he said.. The fun part is trying to make it look that good in the real world :).

[Bryce]

The fun part is trying to make it look that good in the real world :).

I get to do that everyday. hehehe

[Tincup]

Nice job on the design work. I'm a mechanical designer myself, are you using Solidworks? Sure makes life easier when you need something made. Good luck with the build.

[kmdracer]

I had a 76 notch in HS as well (briefly, lol) Never was a huge fan of it, but I like the way the pics of the Handler you bought looked. Interested to see this progress.

[feeble]

Thanks for the comments everyone.


are you using Solidworks?

I use Inventor.


Nothing to report on the chassis or front suspension, I am still tinkering with the basics and getting parts modeled up so I can do the design.

I did get the dual quad top to my Clevor (Boss 302) EFI tunnel ram base this week. The engine is a long ways off but I am slowly collecting parts. Not sure if I'm going to put duad throttle bodies on top or modify the intake top to have a single throttle body in the front. Both ideas appeal to me for different reasons. I haven't completely ruled out a Coyote swap yet either.

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Does a street fighter / pro-touring style 70s car with a 70s body kit "fit" well with a 70s intake w/ EFI sticking through the hood or is it too much? Or is too much just right?

[feeble]

I got the front wheels and 275/40R17 tire set on my CAD model for 1/2" of fender clearance. The 13" Cobra brake rotor and early Mustang drum brake hub are modeled up with the Wilwood Pro Spindle. I have a 15:1 manual rack and have set the scrub radius at about 1/2" which means I will need a 65mm offset to the wheel. So much for using cheap Cobra R knock off wheels. I guess this is one of the reasons why you folks end up using wheels with such deep backspacing huh?

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[feeble]

Not much to report except more CAD screen shots. The design continues to be refined and is slowly evolving into something that passes my gut check and that I will be able to mostly build in my garage. I had thought at one time about farming the frame rails out to Art Morrison but decided to keep it home built as much as my skill set and available tools would allow.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The roll bar is still dummied in a but a little bit closer to reality as it ties in nicely with the rear shock mounts.

Said this before, but I *think* the rear is done except for the anti-roll bar and housing pivot for the 3rd link. I keep finding little things to improve it but at some point I just have to quit screwing with it. All of the joints are fully articulated in the model so I should be able to do a kinematics study using the tools built into my CAD software.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

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The lower shock mount is single shear but the Ride Tech shocks will take up to a 5/8" bolt, so I decided to go that route for extra margin of safety

Still working on modeling up purchased components for the front suspension and steering so I can determine pivot points, control arms, etc.. Looks like I am going with the Wilwood Pro Spindle and Afco upper ball joints that are .20" taller than the standard Moog K772 ball joint that would normally be used on a Mustang II with tubular control arms. I will try to keep the factory location pivot points on the frame if the results are good.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

When I get the front and rear suspension designed, I'd like to post the specs and dimensions for review by the group to make sure I didn't do anything too out of line. Is that OK?

[future9er24]

Can't wait to read more! I've been lurking here for ages but man, this project is what finally got me to register, just so I could post about how excellent it is.

I remember using Inventor for FIRST robotics in high school. This really makes me want to start CADing components for my car

[cobragt]

Very cool!

[feeble]

Thanks guys. Spent some time getting the rotisserie finished up and am still working the frame and suspension design. Not much to update on the car itself except that it is mounted up and I pulled the suspension and rear end out. Hope to start opening up the rear quarters this weekend.

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[feeble]

I'm doing layouts on the front suspension and trying to make my front wheel decision so I can get a little further on the design. I'm itching to get this phase wrapped up so I can start building. Current CAD shot:


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



As I think out loud working through this, I'm hoping some of you can offer advice.

Constraints:


Wheels: 17 x 9 / 10.5 or 17 x 9.5 / 11 combo (not yet purchased)
Tires: 275/40r17 & 315/34r17 (not yet purchased)
Suspension & Steering: 2" drop Wilwood Mustang II Pro Spindle, Howe ball joints, Custom fabbed control arms with some SPC components, 15:1 manual rack.
Brakes: 2000 Cobra R Brembos. I also have a set of Cobra PBR calipers I could use. Using them would be somewhat of a letdown now that I have the Brembos. I've looked at the Wilwood brake kits that mate with the Pro Spindle but didn't like that they move the wheel mounting surface out by ~0.6"



To help improve the Mustang II front suspension geometry, a goal is to maximinize the lower control arm length. Also like to reduce the scrub radius as much as possible to make the steering easier with the manual rack. Additionally, I need 50mm of caliper clearance for the Brembos. Minimizing the damage to my wallet is also a consideration.

I have looked at the Enkei RPF1 (http://www.enkei.com/rpf1.shtml#) because it does fit the Brembos but rejected it because it only goes up to 10" wide for the rear and so would not be a good match for the 315/35r17 rear tire.

The options that do have matching rear wheels are:

'95 Cobra R - 17 x 9 +24mm offset:

Comments: really cheap, readily available and fit the Brembos but with the shortest control arm (but still ~1.75" longer than a stock Mustang II) and largest scrub radius @ 2.13"

'95 Cobra R - 17 x 9 +45mm, designed for SN197 cars

Comments: cheap, limited availability, may not fit the Brembos if the same casting was used as the +24mm wheel above and just machined with a deeper 45mm offset, best compromise of price, control arm length and scrub radius @ 1.31". I am trying to find out more info but details are scarce. I ordered one to check it out but was sent the 24mm offset version.

Fikse Split 5 - 17 x 9.5 +44mm - http://www.fikse.com/2010/profil.html

Comments: not so cheap @ ~$800 per wheel compared to the Cobra wheels, will fit the Brembos, best compromise of control arm length and scrub radius @ 1.35" but not price.

Some custom forged 3 piece work of art - 17 x 9.5 +65mm

Comments - Highest price, Brembo fitment should not be a problem, least compromise on control arm length and smallest scrub radius @ 0.5"


Given the above criteria and choices, what would you choose and why? In the real world, with a manual rack and 275 front tires, how much is a scrub radius of .5" / 1.3" / 2.1" going to matter? Am I crazy trying to use a manual rack with that size of tire no matter the scrub radius? "Wanna play? Gotta pay." and that's just the way it is?

Any other thoughts? I may be missing something obvious.

Thanks for your input.

[cobragt]

I would say stick with the power steering, I really hated driving my brothers 66 fastback around the autocross course with manual steering. I could never get any faster, just felt like I was fighting the car all the time. And his wheels are 16x8

[feeble]

I would say stick with the power steering, I really hated driving my brothers 66 fastback around the autocross course with manual steering. I could never get any faster, just felt like I was fighting the car all the time. And his wheels are 16x8

Do you know what his scrub radius is by any chance?

[craigs73]

awesome project.....

[feeble]

Thanks! Hopefully it doesn't disappoint.

Getting close to wrapping up the front suspension design. I think I have my wheel / brake issues settled and all the parts related to that are here or on the way. The compromise I had to make was to give some on the scrub radius so I wasn't spending $1000 a wheel to get the offset and brake clearance where I wanted it. So the scrub will be about 1-5/16" with 17 x 9 Cobra R wheels with a 45mm offset. To get the caliper clearance (2000 Cobra R Brembos) I needed with 45mm offset wheels, I'm using a 1.25" offset Wilwood hat and a 13" Coleman Racing rotor.

I've got the front suspension geometry plotted and here are the camber results. I'd like opinions. Too much? Not enough? I'm thinking I want to shorten the upper arm a little bit to pick up a little more gain on the curve.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Caster is at 4 degrees
Anti-dive at 3 degrees
Roll center height is about 2-3/4" - 3-1/16" depending on how much tire squash I have.


And here are some screen shots of the design.

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I need to check some things on the steering yet (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?90321-Wilwood-ProSpindle-and-bump-steer), finish the design for the suspension pickup points and upper coil over mount and then I think... finally..... I'll be comfortable enough with the design that I can start building something.

[78CobraII]

Man those designs are just art!

The lower looks a bit like a MII lower with an outrigger to replace the MII strut rod. When you make yours, you may be asked to make some more of them!

[feeble]

Thanks, I'm sure they will be fun and challenging to build but almost none of this will bolt into a stock Mustang II subframe. I will share all of the drawings and specs though if you want to build your own.

Finished up the design of the upper control arm mounts and shock mount this weekend.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Still have a little to finish on the rear lower control arm mount and front crossmember.

In the real world, I had the snout on the front hubs turned down so that it fits into the center bore on the wheels. Test fit the hub, rotor, wheel and caliper and it looks like everything is just going to clear with the rotor and hat combination I'm using.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I should have the spindles back this week from the machinist so I can mount the hubs on the spindles and finish the design of the caliper bracket. Have to take the measurements for this in the real world as I don't have a CAD model for the Brembo caliper

[Wesley J]

Love the design work, I'm envious of your CAD skills!

[frojoe]

Great SolidWorks usage.. I'm super jealous of all the dedication you've put into the modeling, I've been wanting to do that for my build for a couple years but just can't find the extra time on top of actually fabbing all the parts and using ProE for the majority of my workday. Keep up the fantastic work, definitely keeping an eye on this one...

[twosaturns]

wow, a monroe handler? now you need a denimachine as your tow vehicle!

[feeble]

Thanks for the comments guys.

A denimachine? Never heard of it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/07/0f4242e1a42dac4fb30fb4ea889d8574-1.jpg

Pure 70s awesome though!

I do like Coke and Levi's.... hmmm..... :)

[feeble]

A few more parts machined and fitted together.

The Wilwood hat section and 13" x 1-1/8" Coleman Racing rotor.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Compared to a stock 1-piece Cobra rotor, the 2-piece rotor has about a 1" deeper hat section and lets the Brembo calipers (2000 Cobra R or Focus RS) clear the 45mm offset 17 x 9.5 Cobra R wheels that are designed for a 2005+ Mustang. The higher offset wheel (compared to a regular '95 Cobra R) improves the scrub radius which makes for easier steering with a manual rack. The stud holes weren't quite large enough and had to be oversized to 9/16"

As I mentioned before, the snout on the hub had to be turned to fit inside the center bore on the wheel. Conversely, the snout was too small for the center hole on the rotor hat so I had some aluminum centering rings made up to help keep everything concentric. The hubs are 65 - 66 Mustang V8 drum brake hubs.

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And here it is put together with the wheel, Wilwood Pro-Spindle and caliper:

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Now that I finally was able to put this all together, I can get the caliper bracket designed:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

All of this is a whole lot of silver, I'll probably be making some changes to the colors.



Some of the 3/16" thick laser cut parts for the rear of the frame and suspension brackets for the rear end showed up last weekend. More steel is on the way. Here is a sample of a few:

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You can see some of the parts in this screenshot:

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Had a heck of a coupon for a 20-ton Harbor Freight press so I picked that up this weekend. I'm going to try to get this modeled up in 3D by next weekend so I can design a tube bender attachment. My garage space is limited so the more multi-functional the equipment is, the better.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

On the frame design itself, I widened out the front frame rails 3" compared to a stock Mustang II. I have the room to do so and it allows for more header clearance or wider engines.

Still messing with the upper control arm mounts and haven't really come up with anything else that lets me use the Del-sphere joints and have an adjustable arm. I'm not really liking it too much at this point, but this will probably be it (famous last words!):

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



I'll continue to plug away at it. "Do a little... often" I've been told.

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Thanks for reading!

[69stang]

Nice project!! I've always wanted to do something similar with a II.
I have SolidWorks & Autocad at home and had been using Solid Edge and Autocad at work but currently transitioning over to NX8.
I'm following this one.

[feeble]

Not much of an update to report. I'm overhauling the front suspension design again (4 or 5th time, I've lost count) Just haven't come up with anything I am 100% happy with yet, there are a lot of considerations to balance. I like the geometry I have but the packaging of it and turning it into something I can build is another matter.

Widened the front frame rails out from the stock II 23-3/4" to 28-1/2" inside. Still have about 3/4" of tire clearance at full wheel lock. Makes for lots of room for the engine and headers.

Just to see if it they fit, I did put the front Cobra R calipers / Wilwood hat / Coleman rotor together with the 17 x 8 Centerline Lazer wheels (http://centerlinewheels.com/wheels_detail.php?mw_id=35&sw_id=462) I have here. The calipers just clear the spokes by just under 1/8" without a spacer. Just an FYI for someone that might be looking for wheels to use with those calipers.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[LazyMod]

Compared to a stock 1-piece Cobra rotor, the 2-piece rotor has about a 1" deeper hat section and lets the Brembo calipers (2000 Cobra R or Focus RS) clear the 45mm offset 17 x 9.5 Cobra R wheels that are designed for a 2005+ Mustang. The higher offset wheel (compared to a regular '95 Cobra R) improves the scrub radius which makes for easier steering with a manual rack. The stud holes weren't quite large enough and had to be oversized to 9/16"



Hi, sorry if I may be wrong, but wouldn't a higher offset wheel make for more negative scrub? Thereby increasing steering effort? I'm making my wheel decisions right now for my manual rack'd 67 mustang, so if I'm wrong I really need to figure it out!

[feeble]

The higher positive offset moves the centerline of the wheel in towards the centerline of the car. Relative to where I started, the 45mm offset wheel decreases the positive scrub radius which reduces steering effort and tramlining. I'm sitting at about 1-5/16" positive scrub right now. I'd like to reduce it further but don't really want to pay for custom, higher offset wheels.

The further you are from zero scrub (positive or negative), the higher your steering effort will be.

[Ripper]

great project! Haven't read the entire thread yet, but I have to leave a note so I won't miss it next time! ;)

I saw you had problems with mounting the upper A-arm to the chassis. What about the SPC arms?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Sorry if you already thought of them - I haven't read the entire thread yet...

EDIT: I was a little unclear there... I ment the inner bushings of the upper arms - why do you want to go with del-sphere bushings and not the SPCs?

[feeble]

why do you want to go with del-sphere bushings and not the SPCs?

I wanted everything to be the same basic design, single source replacement parts, etc plus I just like them better. I think I have something worked out using a mixture of SPC, Spohn, and custom components using the stock Mustang II cross shaft.

Unfinished but you get the idea:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Ripper]

I understand that motivation. It's always a good idea to keep the complexity down.

Your picture makes me drooling. You seem to be even more CAD addicted than I - nice details in the parts.

How come you placed the coil over so far in on the A-arm?

[feeble]

You seem to be even more CAD addicted than I - nice details in the parts.



I am fortunate that some suppliers have shared their CAD data with me, saves a lot of time. But you are right, I like a lot of detail.





How come you placed the coil over so far in on the A-arm?

Do you mean towards the frame or towards the spindle? I like to keep the front and rear coil-overs as close to the wheel as practical, and then tip the top of the shock in towards the frame 5 degrees. I think the shock and spring can do a better job if they are closer to the wheel / tire (at the expense of higher shock travel and larger upper brackets in the case of the front) It's a balancing act.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I probably could go another inch or so wider on the rear:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Do you have a different thought on shock and spring location relative to wheel location for conventionally mounted shocks and springs?

[sjaroslo]

Make sure that you tighten up those jam nuts on your upper control arms.... :-) Beautiful detail on your drawings.

[Cris@JCG]

Very nice detail on the CAD work!

[iadr]

The further you are from zero scrub (positive or negative), the higher your steering effort will be.

Only true in motion (and I'm not convinced there aren't exceptions there). When stopped (parallel parking, etc), scrub can significantly reduce steering effort. In fact, some say thats the reason for scrub existing in OE designs.

[David Pozzi]

Not much to report except more CAD screen shots. The design continues to be refined and is slowly evolving into something that passes my gut check and that I will be able to mostly build in my garage. I had thought at one time about farming the frame rails out to Art Morrison but decided to keep it home built as much as my skill set and available tools would allow.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The roll bar is still dummied in a but a little bit closer to reality as it ties in nicely with the rear shock mounts.

Said this before, but I *think* the rear is done except for the anti-roll bar and housing pivot for the 3rd link. I keep finding little things to improve it but at some point I just have to quit screwing with it. All of the joints are fully articulated in the model so I should be able to do a kinematics study using the tools built into my CAD software.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The lower shock mount is single shear but the Ride Tech shocks will take up to a 5/8" bolt, so I decided to go that route for extra margin of safety

Still working on modeling up purchased components for the front suspension and steering so I can determine pivot points, control arms, etc.. Looks like I am going with the Wilwood Pro Spindle and Afco upper ball joints that are .20" taller than the standard Moog K772 ball joint that would normally be used on a Mustang II with tubular control arms. I will try to keep the factory location pivot points on the frame if the results are good.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

When I get the front and rear suspension designed, I'd like to post the specs and dimensions for review by the group to make sure I didn't do anything too out of line. Is that OK?

A 5/8" bolt in the shock eye will bind. Use their aluminum spacers with a 1/2" bolt & carefully check for enough clearance from step bushing to shock body. On a Camaro, I had to turn down the OD slightly to get more angle clearance using 1/2" spacers.

[feeble]

Thanks for the tip David. I've got some 5/8" hardware coming for the rear that should be OK if my thinking is correct, I'll post pics when it gets here.

I've scrapped the full frame idea, I'd never get the car done if I changed it that much.

I still want to do a three link rear though as I have a lot of the purchased parts already.

To that end, I cut the spare tire well in the hatch area:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

and am building this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


which should slip in from the top once I finish removing the rest of the floor out to the existing uni-body frame rails.

Should look JUST like this when it's done. ;-)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The brackets on the front of the lower links bolt-in to replace the stock Mustang II leaf spring hangers.

Assuming my CG height assumption is correct, as shown, anti-squat is 53%. If I want to drag, dropping the rear of the lower link into the bottom hole puts AS at 120%.

[PhillipM]

I like it man and I admire your skills using the design software. Keep the updates coming!

[Ripper]

Great engineering!
It's great to see more people mixing real time pics with cad-renders!

[Ron Sutton]

Great engineering!
It's great to see more people mixing real time pics with cad-renders!

I agree. I'm enjoying Shawn's build.

[feeble]

Thanks guys! Really helps to be in good company!

Weather here was great today, 60s to low 70s with a light breeze.

Part of the day was spent stripping the rear housing down, leaving the axles. Got the pinion angle roughly set for the 3 link. Leaving the leaf springs in place for now as they do a great job of holding up the car and locating the rear end right where it needs to be.

Also spent more time removing the hatch floor and portions of the structure that holds the upper shock mount. The frame rails are pristine. :) Still need to finish trimming yet. It looks like the frame work in the CAD shot above should slip in pretty nicely. I have to order the rectangular tubes for that yet (odd size) and get the rest of the tubes cut, holes drilled for the fuel cell mount, etc.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[feeble]

Fuel cell can is all done.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

It even fits!

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Went from this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

to this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

still have some excess splatter to clean up on a couple parts.

I think it is just about time to start fitting all of this into the car. :)

[Ripper]

It's like Lego!

[feeble]

It's like Lego!

Heavy legos to be sure! I do like things to be modular and bolt together. Some weight could definitely come out of this though.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

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Ended up getting a Strange 9" housing, seems to be a better fit than the other one I have. Basement partial mock up, build is stalled for now until it warms up some.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Bryce]

Looking good. Nice progress.

[feeble]

Thanks Bryce, I pulled a lot of inspiration from your thread.

The parts I was waiting for showed up today finally (very slow holiday mail service despite being sent Priority Mail) and I made some good progress. We'll call it a 2-link for now...

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Next up is locating the upper coil over mounts and attaching the watts link bracket on the frame side. Lots more to do...

[feeble]

Last night and today's progress. Rear subframe is welded up, braces removed and tacked into the car. Watts link in. Splined anti-roll bar mounts in.

Supposed to get cold again, so probably nothing else this year.

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[feeble]

A few pics from the last several months of work.

Fender test fit to check stance & tire clearance, the body needs to come down some yet.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Four point installed, door bars and harness bar won't go in until I get seats picked out.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


22 gallon fuel cell test fit. It has remote fill, safety foam and a collector with check valves on the pickup. Figured it was the smart thing to do since there really isn't a rear bumper to speak of on a Monroe Handler because of the rear roll pan.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Block, heads and rotating assembly are at the shop for machine work and balancing.

Now that I have the roll bar far enough along, I can add the crossmember that the front of the rear suspension centerlink will attach to. The tube looks a little small but will be attached to the tunnel and the roll bar hoop uprights with some additional bracing if I feel it is required.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

More later!

[slammedwhitec5vert]

This is such a great build I remember wanting one of these whan I was a kid. Your skills are amazing.....

[feeble]

Thanks! I wish my welding skills were better.

All links in finally.

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Lots of work to do yet, not even close to done.

[injcted]

Cool build and Keep up the great work

[cornfedbill]

Excellent work. I like Mustang II's for some reason. They have real potential.

[bbcowboy]

Your design/fab work is great, your CAD skills are unbelievable...

[Twentyover]

Can I ask how far forward of the original spring perches you mounted the lower arms? How much longer are the lower arms than the spring eye-axle length?

[feeble]

The lower arms are about the same length as the distance from the axle to the front leaf spring eye, about 21-1/2" long. I could have made them an inch or two longer before running into the subframe connectors.

[Tig]

Amazing build on an amazing car.
As said, great progress and skills with CAD.

Did you make the links?
Thanks

[linkstar69]

Cool little car, and great design work.

[Red67Mustang]

Any updates?
Cool build.

[feeble]

Cool build.

Thanks!


Any updates?


Yup!

It's been a busy summer, my wife and I went to Germany in June to visit our oldest son and his wife. Right after that I was slammed with a work project that kept me from my car and pretty much everything else for a solid month.

In spite of that, did get some things done since the last update. These are not in chronological order.

BODY

Got the rear fender wells cut out, got tired of looking at the tires sitting on the fender lip.

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Filled in the factory quarter panel fuel fill hole.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Welded the rear fill in:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Closed up some spots on the interior on either side of the fuel cell:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Fuel cell fill hose and tube pretty much done. Initial roll pan fitting done. Need to get the pan louvers bought yet.


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ENGINE:

Most of the parts for the initial engine have been purchased. Nearly everything is at the machine shop.

I had the cam spec'd by a guy that specializes in Cleveland / Clevor builds. Fairly mild on the duration but 0.590I / 0.600E lift with 1.73 rockers.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


I switched the Explorer cam position sensor over to a good steel gear to match the billet cam.

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Heads have been cut for screw in studs, guide plates, hardened exhaust seats, CC'ed to 58cc.

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Crank is done. Genuine 289 hi-po rods with 3/8" bolts are done. Everything still needs to be balanced.

Got the throttle bodies bought but am still waiting on some backordered parts to mount them to the intake.

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CHASSIS:

Got the last little piece installed for the horizontal tube that the third link attaches to.

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Because I don't have a tube bender and didn't have time because of the work project I mentioned, I decided to hire out the fab of the door bars. Turned out pretty good and it is still reasonably easy to get in and out.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

After the car returned home, got some tubes added between the top of the shock mounts and diagonals. Aside from the harness bar, I'm not sure how much else I'm going to do back here.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Factory Mustang II V8 engines are offset to the passenger side 1". I've always thought that looked odd so I am moving the engine over 1" to the driver side (centering it), dropping it 1/2" (with 1/8" clearance between the Moroso oil pan and Fox manual rack) and moving it back ~1-1/8", allowing me to use a Fox aluminum driveshaft as-is. All of this improves the center of gravity to my favor.

I bought some of these engine mounts from Speedway, removed the rubber and added urethane bushings.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Designed some new frame mounts:

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and redesigned a transmission crossmember originally designed by another Mustang II owner.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


The new engine and frame mounts really open a lot of room for the headers.

Currently working on installing Ridetech front lower control arms so that I can eliminate the strut rod to make more room for the headers.

A couple shots of the whole car at various times this summer:

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This car is morphing into what I hope will be an interesting mix of vintage 70s fiberglass street machine, pro-touring & street fighter styles.

Stay tuned!

[feeble]

Finally got the Offy IR (supposed to be Individual Runner but isn't quite) adapters I was waiting for so I can start mocking some of this intake up. The adapters turn the carbs (or throttle bodies in this case) sideways so you can tune the carbs without taking the whole thing apart. The recommended Offy linkage (on the left in the picture) for use with the adapters isn't the best so I'll probably be making some changes there.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


With the throttle bores wide open, you can almost see the intake valve it is such a straight shot. It looks like it should work pretty good but fingers crossed the EFI will improve the drivability and lower end torque.

[dangina]

somehow, you made these mustangs look cool!

[andrewb70]

Shawn,

This build is excellent. I can't believe that I am just now seeing it. I saw you posted in Blake's Mustang thread and I popped over here, and WOW!

What EFI system do you plan to use? I am doing a "dual quad" tunnel ram intake on my Cougar build, but instead of using cable TBs, I am using GM DBW throttle bodies. This eliminates the need for all mechanical linkages (which are a pain) and gives you some interesting tuning options. Just food for thought.

Andrew

[feeble]

Thanks Andrew!

I'm planning on using Megasquirt 3 Pro. I have the linkage mostly sorted out now for the tunnel ram, it really ended up not being as bad as I thought. Here's a mock up:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Was just getting started on the headers but the weather turned too cold this last week. First time building headers, so I'm sure I will make a lot of mista.... gain a lot of experience. ;-) The biggest issue I have now is getting a 1-7/8" primary tube (largest I can fit without chopping the frame rails) to work in a 351c 4v header flange.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


I have a lot of work to do yet and my long block should be done at the machinist's (hopefully) by the end of the year.


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Do you have a build thread for the Cougar?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it: https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/109464-1967-Cougar-build?highlight=cougar

[andrewb70]

Glad you found it. Don't hate me for sticking a LS engine in there...LOL

What MC are you using?

Andrew

[feeble]

No hate, it's your car, you do what you want. ;-) On my car, it will be interesting to see how this faux Boss 302 will do with a hydraulic roller cam, EFI, LS coils, etc. Can't find anyone on the 'net that has done this which means it will be awesome or a disaster. Fingers crossed. Either way though, as you mentioned in your Cougar thread regarding building a Ford, it isn't cheap.

That is a 1986 15/16" Ranger master cylinder. The line lock and proportioning valve are going to have to move as I am most likely switching to a hydraulic throwout bearing to eliminate the clutch cable to make more room for the headers.

[andrewb70]

....

That is a 1986 15/16" Ranger master cylinder. The line lock and proportioning valve are going to have to move as I am most likely switching to a hydraulic throwout bearing to eliminate the clutch cable to make more room for the headers.

Is the MC aluminum? Does it have a deep hole for the pushrod?

Andrew

[bergers59]

Thanks! Hopefully it doesn't disappoint.

I've got the front suspension geometry plotted and here are the camber results. I'd like opinions. Too much? Not enough? I'm thinking I want to shorten the upper arm a little bit to pick up a little more gain on the curve.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Caster is at 4 degrees
Anti-dive at 3 degrees
Roll center height is about 2-3/4" - 3-1/16" depending on how much tire squash I have.



what type of equation did you use to calculate/plot the camber curve? Also for the a-arms I assume you analyzed it like a four bar mechanism? Love the work that's going into the project, hope my camaro goes down this path soon.

[feeble]

what type of equation did you use to calculate/plot the camber curve?

I did it graphically in the CAD program.

[feeble]

Is the MC aluminum? Does it have a deep hole for the pushrod?

Andrew

Yes, it is aluminum. Not sure how you would define deep, but I would define it as deep. A few more pictures here: http://www.mustangiitech.org/gallery2/v/MustangII/manual_brakes/

[Ripper]

Holy Haleluja Batman!

nice intake!

[XTRMEASURES]

Any updates???
Love the suspension work and over all build of the car. Great work

[Zanie]

Man, this is some kinda cool!

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Yes, updates!

[GrabberGT]

I thought about this when I saw the MII on the Optima show a couple weeks ago... Why not stretch the wheel base by moving the front wheels crossmember and all forward. Asthetically thats the only part of the MII I dont like and it would give you a better weight distribution.

[feeble]

Thanks for all the comments guys.


Updates.... well. Over Christmas I got it mostly stripped and put back on the rotisserie so I can work on the headers and better position the car so I can finishing the remaining welding as "flat" as possible.

With the exception of one or two days where I did get started on the headers, this is how it has sat for over two months, mostly because it has been too cold.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



Today the weather is taking a serious turn to spring. I have to get a fence up this spring, but other than that, it's almost all car this season. I hope to have something I can drive by late fall for testing (obviously won't be close to done though).



Why not stretch the wheel base by moving the front wheels crossmember and all forward. Asthetically thats the only part of the MII I dont like and it would give you a better weight distribution.

I agree on all of your points, but I didn't want to change the lines of the Handler body, I like that as is but it lead to a lot of other compromises.

I'd like to build another Mustang II, with the basic length of the car unchanged but the front wheels moved forward 4 to 6 inches, rear wheels back 2 to 4 inches, tucked bumpers, lowered a lot, BIG flares, pushrod suspension, set back Coyote engine, etc.

In other words, on the Monroe Handler, the body dictated the chassis. On the next car (if I have the patience), I'd like the chassis to dictate the body.

[cornfedbill]

I am not a big Ford fan, but I like this build.

I always thought the Mustang II's were very overlooked and had potential.

[feeble]

The radiator, fan and shroud showed up. The radiator has the inlet and outlet moved over 1" to the driver side to match the engine being moved.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


The package ended up being thicker than planned so I figured I had better get it mocked up before I finished welded the engine frame mounts in. Some modifications were needed. I ended up completely removing the bottom of the radiator support and the upper mounting holes. I got some tubing and will build a new lower support.

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With some careful trimming and tweaking, I was able to save the upper supper and bottom set of holes.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


I ended up with enough clearance but will probably switch the water pump pulley bolts and the fan motor cover bolts to button head allen bolts just to make sure.

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Headers - Still my Achilles heal. I'm not happy with my workmanship so I decided to hire these done from http://www.gpheaders.com/ (was http://www.stainlessheaders.com, the business split and the fabrication portion is now handled by GP Headers). You basically build a mock of the headers from the pieces they send you and PVC plumbing parts. You send them the mockup and they duplicate it in mild or stainless steel. I had planned on devoting the weekend to these but their stubbed mockup flanges are too long to fit, so I've got something in mind to take care of that. Had to order a little bit of stuff, more on these later.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Engine - Got the long block back from the machinist this weekend. Got it taped off, painted up and bagged until I need it.

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Got the valve covers I am going to use with the coil brackets and misc hardware needed to put it all together:

The coil brackets wouldn't quite fit on the covers so I had to modify them slightly, relocating one mounting hole:

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Chassis - Fitted and welded up the brackets to tie back the forward bars on the rollbar to the front subframe. I *think* have all of the roll bar welding done. Finshed the upper coil over mounts.

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Have number of parts to be powder coated, for example:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Much more to come!

[andrewb70]

Nice update. Tell us more about that engine. Those intake ports are erin huge!

Andrew

[feeble]

The block is a 302 roller block bored 30, stock stroke, genuine 289 hi-po rods, Wiseco Boss 302 pistons. custom hyd roller comp cam.

The heads are 351c 4v closed chamber heads, SS 2.19 intake & 1.71 exhaust valves, Comp beehive springs, ports are stock 351c 4v but they have been milled to get just under ~10:1

This is kind of an experiment to see how what a carefully selected hyd roller and EFI will do to help the lack of low end torque on these engines. The ports don't have much velocity on the low end due to their size but the EFI should largely take care of the fuel atomization issues so I guess...

we'll see. I expect it will get aluminum heads & more displacement at some point down the road.

[feeble]

I was told I need to post more stuff. :) Here is an update:


A couple dash shots:

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The body is still on the rotisserie. I put the seats back in and am waiting for my free time and warmer weather to coincide so I can fit the harness and harness bar.


Otherwise, when the weather is warm enough but my time is short, I've been working on finishing some welding up, little pieces here and there, steering rack mounts, frame mounts, all in and welded.


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Got a bunch of stuff back from the powder coaters so I started fitting the intake together, this is where most of my time and money has been spent the last couple months. I can work on it in the basement, 20 minutes here, and hour there, so that is a plus. Lines have to be bent (and re-bent), little brackets made, (and re-made), lots of putting together and taking back apart. This part has been a lot of fun though.


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I'm working on the bellcrank pivot for the throttle body linkage now, ordered the material and bearings for that today. After I get that done, I get to start on finding a home for these, make mounting brackets and plumb them in.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


The block on the left is IAC block and will let the computer adjust the idle as needed (when the electric fan kicks on for example). The small black manifold on the right is where the MAP sensor will get it's vacuum signal from the two throttle bodies and where I'll plumb in the sensor for the dash mounted vacuum gauge.


I needed to check a few clearances and get a few measurements, so I set the valve covers and intake on the mock up block and heads.


Everything looks OK for the cam position sensor to fuel pressure regulator clearance.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif




This is where my bellcrank pivot is going to be mounted under the fuel rail, I'm likely going to have to shorten this link a little bit.


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A couple money shots for those that have gotten this far:






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That's it for now, lots more to come!

[andrewb70]

Shawn,

Great progress.

I don't want to scare you, but I have found that some of the billet 4 barrel throttle bodies pass a lot of air at idle. With two of them on the engine you may not be able to close them enough for the IAC to control idle. On my 5.3L LS it was a real challenge to get the idle down. The twin 87mm TBs leak enough air that my IAC values at idle are 0%, but it works mostly because with my cam, it likes to idle at around 1000rpm anyway.

Andrew

[feeble]

Thanks for the warning Andrew, they don't look too bad, not really any gap to speak of that I can see.

I'll just have to try it and if it doesn't work, try something else. I'm getting very familiar with that concept. ;)

[andrewb70]

Thanks for the warning Andrew, they don't look too bad, not really any gap to speak of that I can see.

I'll just have to try it and if it doesn't work, try something else. I'm getting very familiar with that concept. ;)

Will you have dual IACs since the intake doesn't have a common plenum?

Never mind....I see you made an IAC manifold. Should be interesting to see how all that works!

Andrew

[Josh@Ridetech]

Looks great. All of the detail in the CAD work makes me jealous, very good job!

[feeble]

Thanks Josh. I need to buy a set of RT front coil overs yet to match the rear, I'll be in touch with someone about that soon. No Monroe shocks on this Monroe Handler!


I'm using a set of Ridetech Mustang II front lower control arms and there is no apparent attachment for the front roll bar. I can make something up if I need to but does Ridetech have any suggestions for roll bar attachment?

Thx!

[alcino]

I love the gauge cluster! It's nearly identical to what I imagine doing. Is the Speedhut tach and speedo the 4" size? Proportions and design look great.

[feeble]

Yes Alcino, those are the 4" sizes. I can send a CAD file for the dash insert if you decide to go that route.

[RMMiller]

I saw an ad on Craigs List and this thread was the first thought I had. The guy has glass fenders and hood along with a steel hood with the Cobra 2 scoop. Not sure if you would even be interested but here it is....

http://kpr.craigslist.org/pts/5499496412.html

[feeble]

Thanks for the link. The Monroe Handler's fenders are fiberglass already and I am picking up a new fiberglass hood on Friday. I'll forward this on to someone who might want the fenders though... Thx again.



I gave up on the headers, running out of time and patience. Car will be going to a shop in a 3 weeks or so to have them fabricated.

[RMMiller]

Any time, it's not often you see parts for those cars up for sale so I like to pass along the info.

[dangina]

curious how much did those wheels end up costing ya? (since they don't list prices on their website) I ended up going with RPF1's as the price was right for a performance wheel, but your limited to their offsets, I love the look of deep dish wheels

[feeble]

It's been a couple of years but I bought the rear wheels direct from Centerline for $409 each + shipping. They were polished when I got them. I bought the fronts from someone on this forum. I do really like the deep dish, especially in the rear.

Still waiting for the headers but the car is in his shop and I'm up next. Switched to CHI 4V heads.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[feeble]

Some pics of the header build by Tony Reiners of Dakota Mustang in Worthing SD. When I stopped in Sunday, he had the driver side to weld and the exhaust yet to build. He thought he might get these wrapped up this week. He's doing a great job and I'm going to have to up my game on the rest of the car to match his quality.


Header and exhaust specs:

Individual 1/2" thick SS flanges, 1-3/4" to 1 7/8" step primaries, slip-on 3" merge collectors with V-band clamps. 3" SS exhaust with x-pipe, Borla Pro XS mufflers with turn downs. All TIG welded, argon back purged.


Driver side

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Passenger side

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Installed

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The rest of the pics can be seen here: http://www.mustangiitech.org/gallery2/v/shawn/Handler_build/exhaust/B302_clone/DMI_Headers_exhaust/?g2_page=1

[andrewb70]

Nice progress!

Andrew

[Zspoiler]

I remember Monroe Mustang II Handler cars from that time They were yellow on top with a blue bottom. IMSA racing was in vogue back then.And these cars were a Street car representative of those days. There is a guy on this site who is building a similar car to yours.But its a bright orange .Maybe you can find it in the archives.Or he will see this article and contact you. Neat car,and good luck on your build.

[feeble]

Thanks guys.

Tony got the exhaust finished up today and he is delivering the car to me tomorrow. Pics speak for themselves.

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[feeble]

Time for a little update that proves once again I am better at spending money on the car than I am at assembling it. Garage is mostly put together now from our move this summer and have spent most of the time in the garage working on my pickup redoing the wiring (American Autowire harness) and slowly replacing everything electrical, full LED lighting, new instrument cluster, electric fan, etc, etc on it as practice for the Handler.

Garage in September

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

And today.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



This is my splined 1-1/4" front sway bar, it has solid bushings like the back but they likely will cause the bar to bind when the chassis starts flexing. I'm trying to find an alternative to the bushings and found a company that makes Delrin spherical bearings but haven't heard back from them. Got to get this part done before I can proceed with bending the arms.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



Barely started on the Handler wiring, also American Autowire with some other pieces to fit my build, these will have to be lengthened to fit my coil spacing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



Maier had a black Friday sale so I ordered a scoop. Going need a little work.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Clutch linkage done.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

More to come!

[Bryce]

Mcmaster has pillow blocks with aluminum housings and bronze bushings. They have 7deg of rotation, I run those on all my cars.

[feeble]

Link to fuel line sizing question:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/130838-Confused-Educate-me-on-fuel-line-sizing