PDA

View Full Version : RTTA Lessons Learned



DTM Racing
02-23-2012, 06:52 PM
Any good feedback/problems or issues with the new rules at RTTA? Didn't hear much so I'm guessing there were little to no surprises. Any tips so no one gets blindsided?

DesertFox
02-24-2012, 05:38 AM
Either everyone had the equipment to run in the "full out" group or they let them slide because there werent 80 + cars out there to run.
It was a road course only event and after a couple lead + follow sessions, it became a "point by, pass on the straight" event. (except for one guy who seemed to really like passing in the tighest turns on the track).
My only experience on a road course before this was RTTC2, so it was an education for me. With one of the slower cars at the event, I found myself constantly looking back and just trying to stay out of the way of the others. (The DSE peeps were really awesome and never tried to run me over, thanks, you guys rock).
You basically went out whenever and came back in as you wanted, or to gas up, in some cases. I don't think anyone felt cheated on seat time that's for sure.
The only way it could have been better is if the weather had been good, which of course is not something ASCS had any control over.
All in all, had a great time but wonder how the new rules will work at an event with a full field, like RTTC3 in a couple weeks.

James OLC
02-24-2012, 08:40 AM
I don't know if anything has changed with El Toro - and based on the most recent rental agreement I saw I doubt that it has - but the El Toro facility operators have an absolute zero tolerence policy on passing... period. They even have the right to observe the event and if they observe anyone passing on the road course they have the ability to shut the event down. That being said, Bill's event - Bill's rules so I guess we'll see in a couple of weeks.

Flash68
02-24-2012, 10:50 AM
Man that sounds more like the typical open track day with 20 minute sessions.... interesting.

Finch
02-24-2012, 12:41 PM
Either everyone had the equipment to run in the "full out" group or they let them slide because there werent 80 + cars out there to run.
It was a road course only event and after a couple lead + follow sessions, it became a "point by, pass on the straight" event. (except for one guy who seemed to really like passing in the tighest turns on the track).
My only experience on a road course before this was RTTC2, so it was an education for me. With one of the slower cars at the event, I found myself constantly looking back and just trying to stay out of the way of the others. (The DSE peeps were really awesome and never tried to run me over, thanks, you guys rock).
You basically went out whenever and came back in as you wanted, or to gas up, in some cases. I don't think anyone felt cheated on seat time that's for sure.
The only way it could have been better is if the weather had been good, which of course is not something ASCS had any control over.
All in all, had a great time but wonder how the new rules will work at an event with a full field, like RTTC3 in a couple weeks.


We will assess the conditions at every event and determine if we need to enforce the class break. There are several factors with the main one being the amount of trouble one can get into on that particular track. For instance if there are hard barriers/walls to hit at high speed where correct and accurate breaking is required then we will want to slow the cars down that do not have the required equipment. At the RTTA event the speeds were so low due to the wet conditions it was not necessary to slow anyone down.

SLO_Z28
02-24-2012, 08:24 PM
I learned that even if you win, you don't get an Optima invite.

I think that its a joke that you can beat the field by a MASSIVE amount, and not get the invite.

So how did this change come about? The guy that won didn't suck up to Bill Howell enough, so this new rule comes out of thin air?



Greg Davidson won, period. He deserves the invite, period. Theres no gray area in this one.

mpozzi
02-24-2012, 08:48 PM
James,

I don't think Bll Howell chose who got the invite. There's new criteria in place for this invite now.

Mary P.

SLO_Z28
02-24-2012, 08:52 PM
James,

I don't think Bll Howell chose who got the invite. There's new criteria in place for this invite now.

Mary P.

In that case I apologize to him, its not him I guess. So Optima made this up? Where and when did any of this come about?

tazzz25906112
02-25-2012, 08:18 AM
James I just received a phone call from Jimi Day regarding this posting.... He is aware of the thread and asked me to notify you that the Optima board outlines the process/criteria of selection to an event operator... The board does and will make all rules that relate to how Optima qualifiers are presented and offered... Jimi further stated he would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have directly himself...

Bill Howell
02-25-2012, 09:04 AM
I learned that even if you win, you don't get an Optima invite.

I think that its a joke that you can beat the field by a MASSIVE amount, and not get the invite.

So how did this change come about? The guy that won didn't suck up to Bill Howell enough, so this new rule comes out of thin air?



Greg Davidson won, period. He deserves the invite, period. Theres no gray area in this one.

James,
Since you have called me out on this, I have to do the same, except mine will be with facts, not BS!
1. You were not at the track so obviously don't know that the only good track time was the last 30 minute session. It rained all day and the dry track late in the day changed everyone's times by about 5 or 6 seconds.
2. I was so impressed with Greg and his car that I had picked him to recieve the Ridetech Renegade Award, even before the rain stopped.
3. ASCS has two OUSCI Qualifiers this year out of our 7 events. OUSCI is an Invitational event and they set the rules on who is invited. Promoters like myself that have qualifiers simply go by those rules to pick that event's invitees.
4. With OUSCI growing yearly, picking the right 50 cars is getting harder and harder to do out of 1000's that want to participate. I don't envy the guys that have to make those rules. For you to insinuate that I dreamed up a new rule off the cuff to keep someone out is asinine.
5. Producing these events is no cakewalk and we certainly are not doing it for the money. We started doing them so like minded people could get together and have fun. Do we make mistakes? Of course we do, we are learning just like everyone else as to how to do events of this kind since they are unique from any other event out there. One thing I have learned is I can not make everyone happy and you are obviously on that list even though you didn't even attend RTTA.

SLO_Z28
02-25-2012, 09:29 AM
I was not happy with RTTC2, but it had potential. The problem I have is your complete lack of desire to make the event better for next year. I did apologize in the post above that I now realize it wasn't you, im not afraid to admit that I was wrong in being a *******.


So where is the criteria for the OUSCI invite? I imagine its not published? I just think that the winner should get the invite, there shouldn't be a surprise at the end, and I know I'm not alone on this.

thedodgeboys
02-25-2012, 10:08 AM
This just in...
http://powersource.optimabatteries.com/cars/greg-davidson-invited-to-the-2012-optima-ultimate-street-car-invitational/

When the final results were tabulated from the Run To The Alamo qualifying event for the 2012 OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Invitational, the top-5 finishers eligible for the 2012 OUSCI Fan Favorite voting were Greg Davidson, Mike Yale, Tom Farrington, Terry Neuville and Paul Wilke.

OPTIMA wanted to give fans the opportunity to help select the field for the 2012 OUSCI and asked on Facebook which of those five finishers was their favorite. Unfortunately, irregularities began to appear in the voting and concerns were raised about the voting process itself.

Since there was no way to determine which votes were questionable, the race committee felt the most-equitable outcome for all involved was to revert to the finishing order from the event itself and award the invitation to Greg Davidson, who posted the fastest lap time at the event with a 1:46.4 run.

tazzz25906112
02-25-2012, 10:14 AM
James the last time I looked you haven't done a dam thing for the community to host an event or otherwise improve the community at large.... You made a demeaning cutting & inflammatory statement about one of the community leaders that has in fact hosted events for all our benefits, moderated this board, and made a positive difference in the community....

Optima has also made a difference in hosting and sponsoring events BTW.... They, as recently as this morning indirectly offered through there marketing arm of Jimi Day to answer your questions personally,,, and yet again here you are standing on your soap box preaching/typing away........

Personally I'll state that you should step back from the keyboard, read, and shut the **** up until you're informed... You've done nothing to improve this community yourself and further more are making an ass out of yourself....

Flash68
02-25-2012, 11:19 AM
I was not happy with RTTC2, but it had potential. The problem I have is your complete lack of desire to make the event better for next year. I did apologize in the post above that I now realize it wasn't you, im not afraid to admit that I was wrong in being a *******.


So where is the criteria for the OUSCI invite? I imagine its not published? I just think that the winner should get the invite, there shouldn't be a surprise at the end, and I know I'm not alone on this.

James, you bring up good questions sometimes I'll admit... but you certainly have the tact and acumen of an 8 year old.

Of course not everyone is going to always agree with how this is done and that is done, but Jeez Man.... show some respect for the guys bustin their butts to bring fun to everyone in this little niche of a sport.

coolwelder62
02-25-2012, 12:32 PM
WOW!!,I am glad I don't promote these event's.I have atended the RTT event's.Ton's of fun,Lot's of great folk's,And Albert's Alway's Cook's up some awesome Food.Getting an optima invite is a FREE bonus.

RobNoLimit
02-25-2012, 12:59 PM
We put on two small track days each year. It's a ton of work. I had a blast at RTTC II, and we'll see you there this year. I had my guys help out last year, and they had a blast too. Bill and his crew are doing a great thing for our hobby (it is a hobby after all). As for Optima, the OUSCA is a marketing tool. I really wanted to go again last year, and with the strongest truck in GoodGuys by far, thought that was enough. - but, silver doesn't photo well, and rules are rules (I didn't change the look enough), so, no invite. So, I went out and watched and helped. Had a great day. Sometimes I need to remind my clients about a simple rule of Hot-Rodding, - If this isn't fun for you, go fishing or something else. Life is to short.

Cobra 498
02-25-2012, 04:22 PM
I just wanted to add my .02 to this discussion, I have been running events since the mid 60's,
they have included racing Formula Atlantic, running time trials, hill climbs, autox and
even a car show or two. In the early days I used to run as many as three autox's on one Sunday
because there were dozens of clubs and many places to run. Think about it, these days you might
to be able to run one autox a month and that usually involves a long drive. The series of events
associated with the Protouring groups are terrific compared to anything else I have run. They
are fun, safe and most of all well run. I have chaired a number of small events over the years
and it was a pain to do, I can only imagine how difficult it would be to run an event like RTTH
or any of the other RTT events. I am entered in RTTC3 with the wrong tires so my runs won't
count. I am coming because the event is a blast to run. We are lucky to have people willing to
sacrifice the time and energy to put these events on in the first place. Any other reward, like
a trip to the Optima in Pahrump is just icing on the cake.

analyte
02-25-2012, 07:01 PM
This just in...
http://powersource.optimabatteries.com/cars/greg-davidson-invited-to-the-2012-optima-ultimate-street-car-invitational/

When the final results were tabulated from the Run To The Alamo qualifying event for the 2012 OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Invitational, the top-5 finishers eligible for the 2012 OUSCI Fan Favorite voting were Greg Davidson, Mike Yale, Tom Farrington, Terry Neuville and Paul Wilke.

OPTIMA wanted to give fans the opportunity to help select the field for the 2012 OUSCI and asked on Facebook which of those five finishers was their favorite. Unfortunately, irregularities began to appear in the voting and concerns were raised about the voting process itself.

Since there was no way to determine which votes were questionable, the race committee felt the most-equitable outcome for all involved was to revert to the finishing order from the event itself and award the invitation to Greg Davidson, who posted the fastest lap time at the event with a 1:46.4 run.

I saw this too when I checked the voting results to see if Tom won with his Chevelle. Anyone know how the results got to be questionable? Does this mean that we won't have a fan vote for future events?

Kerry

mpozzi
02-25-2012, 07:22 PM
I might be able to answer that one. If you have access to Internet via a cell phone, iPad, several computers, a work computer ... one person can vote a bunch of times. That's the only issue I could see here.

Mary Pozzi

mpozzi
02-25-2012, 07:27 PM
I just wanted to add my .02 to this discussion, I have been running events since the mid 60's,
they have included racing Formula Atlantic, running time trials, hill climbs, autox and
even a car show or two. In the early days I used to run as many as three autox's on one Sunday
because there were dozens of clubs and many places to run. Think about it, these days you might
to be able to run one autox a month and that usually involves a long drive. The series of events
associated with the Protouring groups are terrific compared to anything else I have run. They
are fun, safe and most of all well run. I have chaired a number of small events over the years
and it was a pain to do, I can only imagine how difficult it would be to run an event like RTTH
or any of the other RTT events. I am entered in RTTC3 with the wrong tires so my runs won't
count. I am coming because the event is a blast to run. We are lucky to have people willing to
sacrifice the time and energy to put these events on in the first place. Any other reward, like
a trip to the Optima in Pahrump is just icing on the cake.

Oh man, Bruce ... I remember those days where we drove our cars to the event, changed tires, ran our runs, changed tires again, and then drove to the next event to do the same thing all over again, and then again. We schlepped a jack, tools, four competition tires, and God know what else, inside a 240Z and probably logged 350+ miles of windshield time in between autocrossing.

Now it's trailers, toterhomes, and luxury compared to what we had to deal with 35 years or so ago. Glad you're coming down to Irvine and talk soon. These guys nowadays have got it easy by comparison. Plus, the cars they compete with are so much better, too.

Mary Pozzi

analyte
02-25-2012, 07:35 PM
I might be able to answer that one. If you have access to Internet via a cell phone, iPad, several computers, a work computer ... one person can vote a bunch of times. That's the only issue I could see here.

Mary Pozzi

That makes sense I guess. Maybe they should only open it up to Facebook with a one-vote limit per account. Thanks Mary!!

Kerry

OptimaJim
02-26-2012, 07:25 AM
Kerry,

Concerns about the legitimacy of votes were raised on the car that ended up with the most votes. Other concerns were raised that somehow people's original votes were moved to other cars without their knowledge. If people were administrators on Facebook pages, they could also cast additional votes if they were using Facebook as that page and I saw at least one guy I know, who did that in the voting. In the end, when you put something out there that people want really badly, folks will push the envelope to try to get things to work out in their favor. That is a theme that weaves it's way through every facet of the OUSCI selection process and the event itself, making it very challenging to invite vehicles and run the event.

Our goal was to give the fans a voice in helping select the field, we just need to find a better way to go about doing it and we're actively working on that. Ideally, we'd like to have another fan vote and if we can find a better way to do it, we may wait until after all the qualifiers have been run to give it another shot.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

JEFFTATE
02-26-2012, 12:09 PM
Organizing , hosting , and sponsoring an event is not that easy .
It takes a tremendous amout of time , mental energy , and concentration.
It's not easy being responsible for other peoples satisfaction and happiness ..
Trust Me , I've been there ..

Flash68
02-26-2012, 12:42 PM
Kerry,

Concerns about the legitimacy of votes were raised on the car that ended up with the most votes. Other concerns were raised that somehow people's original votes were moved to other cars without their knowledge. If people were administrators on Facebook pages, they could also cast additional votes if they were using Facebook as that page and I saw at least one guy I know, who did that in the voting. In the end, when you put something out there that people want really badly, folks will push the envelope to try to get things to work out in their favor. That is a theme that weaves it's way through every facet of the OUSCI selection process and the event itself, making it very challenging to invite vehicles and run the event.

Our goal was to give the fans a voice in helping select the field, we just need to find a better way to go about doing it and we're actively working on that. Ideally, we'd like to have another fan vote and if we can find a better way to do it, we may wait until after all the qualifiers have been run to give it another shot.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

What was weird to me was after several days of pretty consistent movements (mostly linearly) in votes, one car SLING SHOTTED past the others by hundreds of votes...... just didn't seem right to me.

Good call on shutting that voting method down!

mpozzi
02-26-2012, 06:42 PM
That makes sense and I knew it was something technoid. FWIW, I only voted once ...

Mary P.

vintageracer
02-27-2012, 08:05 AM
Competition.

The ruin of MANY a hobby for MANY hobbyists!

Add contingency money to win/place, face time on TV and in print and you see what rises to the top! Hatred, jealousy, despair and of course arm chair CEO's. This is and was inevitable!

As much as you may desire and hope Hendrick, Childress, Gannassi and Penske are NOT at the RTTH events, Goodguys or the Optima event looking for their next young driving sensation! These are still amateur events that are unfortunately moving ever faster to sponsored shoes wheeling the cars for big buck owners OR heavily product sponsored drivers/owners looking for free/discounted parts for their cars in return for hawking their sponsors products. Of course the products I use on my car are the best products out there if they were not I would not use them. Given the HUGE amount of quality suppliers that now cater to our hobby they ALL CANNOT be the best. Could it be possible that the product with the best promotion does not mean that product is necessarily the best product? Sadly, my opinion, is that our hobby is becoming ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!

My hat is off to Bill, Jimi, Yancy, Finch, Bret, Kyle, Stacey, the Pozzi's and ALL THE OTHERS who are INVOLVED in promoting and producing events for us to attend and ENJOY! Thank you ALL from the bottom of my heart! From a business prospective being the promotor's of these events is CRAPPY business plan from the time, money and effort aspect needed to produce ANY event and the potential financial return if any you might enjoy. You better LOVE PROMOTING EVENTS cause the greeter job at Wal Mart probably pays better with a LOT LESS responsibility and NO Capital Expenditure. Even better is the fact that as the greeter at Wal Mart you do NOT have put up with a bunch CRAP from winey customers. All you have to do is point them to customer service and smile!!!! I'll bet all the guys listed above wish they could do the same thing and point the winey event participant to someone else who cares!

I started "racing" (that's what I liked to call it) in the 70's with SCCA and Corvette club autocross and loved it. I then got bored with autocross and moved to Club track events which were similiar to today's "Open Track" events. I eventually realized that Roger Penske was not going to be calling anytime soon and just as with autocross I also got bored with club track events. Since I was then in my mid 30's I looked for the next level of car competition and decided that weekly racing and SCCA were not my cup of tea and settled into vintage racing. NICE people, NICE events, all the WHEEL TO WHEEL competition you could want AND LOT'S OF TRACK TIME at ALL the premier tracks across the country that you could want race or better yet afford to go race at! No work on the car all week, race it and wreck on Saturday and then work on it all week to do it again the next weekend like the local round d rounders. Where's the fun in that? Yes, some would say that vintage racing is also "All About the Money" as lord knows there are LOT'S of guys with LOT'S of money out there racing. They also PAY TO RACE and first place pays the same as last place. ZERO DOLLARS!!! As much as "I" enjoy going to the RTTH event (I have been to all of them) and the people sitting in line ALL DAY to make 4-6 one to two minute autocross runs is just not much fun to me. Same with open track events with controlled passing. Once you run "Wheel To Wheel For Real" autocross and open track events are just not that much fun! I will not be surprised when many of the current heavy hitter participants in our current events will also come to the same conclusion and look for that next thrill level. We have not even talked about drag racing which is like sex with your girlfriend. Three hours worth of work for ten seconds of glory! I'd say that also pretty much describes a day at the drag strip with 3 hours working on the car, waiting in line to try and make a 10 second "pass" down the track!

Answer this question. Do you really think that an invite to the Optima event would be so coveted IF the event was NOT heavily promoted, NOT on TV and NOT mentioned repeatedly in many print magazines? I think the obvious answer would be NO! Kudos to Optima and their event marketing department for such a successful marketing and promotional campaign!

I cannot say enough NICE things about the Optima folks and ALL THE OTHER FOLKS mentioned above who invest their OWN MONEY, TIME AND EFFORT into promoting events that people in our hobby want to attend. Don't like the rules? Don't like the location? Don't like the cost? Don't like the decisions? Pissed that you have a mid pack car? GO OUT AND PROMOTE YOUR OWN EVENT! Make your own rules. Spend your own money to hold the event and probably most important go look in the mirror and see yourself pissing and moaning about something you do not like about your own event. Welcome to the real world of being a promoter who is trying to make all these potential race car drivers who enter your event happy!

Enjoy our hobby at whatever level you choose to participate. If you want to complain go find another hobby to complain about!

carbuff
02-27-2012, 10:52 AM
Answer this question. Do you really think that an invite to the Optima event would be so coveted IF the event was NOT heavily promoted, NOT on TV and NOT mentioned repeatedly in many print magazines? I think the obvious answer would be NO!

Mike, I agree most everything you said, except for this one thing. About 10 years ago, I was fortunate enough to be selected to compete in the Car Craft Real Street Eliminator event held in Bristol. I remembered reading about that event in Car Craft magazines as a kid, and I had a 'dream' to build a car and compete in it someday. Over the years, my 'dream' was refined, I knew what car I wanted to build, and I was going to compete! Well, RSE was cancelled for many years, so I thought that dream was over, but I built the car anyway.

During the summer that I was finishing up the car, Car Craft revived the RSE event. I was very excited, but wasn't sure if my car would be ready in time. I literally FedEx-ed my application to attend the event 3 days before the deadline. When I got the call 2 days later that I was invited, I was ecstatic! I was going to get to fulfill that dream!

I never received any sponsor money, or parts, or TV coverage, or any particular recognition other than being in the write-up on the event (which our own Jeff Schwartz won btw). But that wasn't the point for me... I just wanted to do it, and I did!

I have a feeling that there are a few that do see it the way that you described, but I would be willing to bet that many more see it as an honor to attend moreso than a way to self-promote.

RS_Customs
02-27-2012, 03:15 PM
Don't like the rules? Don't like the location? Don't like the cost? Don't like the decisions? Pissed that you have a mid pack car? GO OUT AND PROMOTE YOUR OWN EVENT! Make your own rules. Spend your own money to hold the event and probably most important go look in the mirror and see yourself pissing and moaning about something you do not like about your own event. Welcome to the real world of being a promoter who is trying to make all these potential race car drivers who enter your event happy!

Enjoy our hobby at whatever level you choose to participate. If you want to complain go find another hobby to complain about!



I agree 100% here, I get so tired of people running their mouths when they can't or won't put on an event or try to help out at the existing ones. And whining and saying this is wrong or that should have been this way, being a keyboard commando is "NOT HELPING", it is bitching.

Come out enjoy the events or go somewhere else......plain and simple.

Robert

Project92rs
02-27-2012, 06:19 PM
Just one general comment, I noticed an Embassy Suites hotel between this year's event hotel and the track. Might be interesting to see what kind of rate they could give. I stay in that chain a lot every year and the included cook to order breakfast and 2 hours of free drinks every evening along with large rooms make it a pretty nice chain to stay at. I'd suggest it for RTTC but neither of the ones in the area have parking lots capable of handling trailers.