Paddle shifted 4L70e or Old School 4 on the floor

[sixfivepost]

Here's the deal. The only automatic I've ever owned is my current truck. I've always liked banging gears in my old Muncie and originally planned to use a SBC and the Muncie. However, the project spiraled out of control and is more or less a PT car now. UMI suspension, big 3pc forged wheels, modern rubber, Moser 9", and an all aluminum 5.3L with LS2 intake, 799/243 heads, Doug's headers, Doug's adapter plates, and a 224/224 .563 112 LSA cam. Probably around the 350 - 360 HP range at the crank. No dyno yet.

I don't want or need a T56. The floors are brand new and already finished so I don't want to cut them as much as I'd need to with a T-56. There are other options, but they're out of my price range. I have access to a very low mileage 4L70e which would require only minor tunnel mods to get it to fit in the car. If I used the 4L70e, I'd be using the TCI paddle shifter and TCI trans module.

As for the Muncie, I already had it rebuilt and beefed up with later model synchros and sliders, new center shaft, new bearings, and etc. by Jerry MacNeish. I'd be using a Hurst shifter or similar. There are several kits out there now to mate a Muncie to an LS type engine, but they're not cheap.

It's a 1965 M20 wide ratio, but again, has been beefed up a little with stronger synchros and sliders. Jerry says it should handle 400 to 450hp with similar torque numbers.
The car is a street car and won't be drag raced with slicks. I'm not saying that I won't do any burn outs though. :6gears:

Both applications will end up costing about the same and if I go with the 4L70e, I'll sell the Muncie which is basically brand new again.

I'd rather have a stick, but an old fashioned trans in a PT themed car may be a turn off to folks if I ever decide to sell it. Paddle shifters would be pretty cool and would probably fit the theme better. The Muncie is lighter, less complex, and can take a beating for street use. And, it will fit in the car without too many, if any modifications.

As a side note, if I were to use the paddle shifters, would I even need a floor shifter (gear selector)?

Please, no bashing, just honest opinions and recommendations.

[Norm Peterson]

Can you live with two (both?) of your vehicles being automatics? In the short run at least, you're building this for you, right?

Regardless of any PT theme, you might not be able to sell a 4L70e-transmissioned car to a hardcore stick-shift driver either.


Norm

[sixfivepost]

I know, I know... difficult decision. I could live with a paddle shifted car though. It's a lot more fun than a slush box without it...

[CFster]

Just make sure you research which gears the paddle shift works in and if there's engine braking.

I have a paddle shifted 4L60e and some things were unexpected.

[srh3trinity]

I would be interested to hear how often people use their paddle shifters. I like the idea, but wonder if it turns into more of a novelty item.

[dontlifttoshift]

The third pedal is the man pedal.....my grandma drives an automatic.

[TheJDMan]

I'm going old school power with modern suspension. Carb SBC and BW ST-10.

[sixfivepost]

Interesting results so far. Keep the votes coming!

[Rod]

hope I can help here, the BW T-10 is a nice transmission, prone to second gear slider/syncro failure, easy to fix with a no jump/skip 2nd gear slider, and now the 4 speed aspect, its a final 1 to1 ratio, and with 3:55 rear end gears(ideal for autocrossing) you're engine will rev around 3000 rpms at 72 mph on the freeway, that's not a bad number just make sure you don't some noisy flowmaster, 1 chamber magnanoise, cherrybomb side pipe thingys, or the 3000 plus rpms will make your ears bleed after a couple hours of driving to events, and yes I love a good 4 speed, the old saying goes, real cars have 3 pedals bicycles have 2 pedals, ha ha ha ha , just joking but having more gears is always better

[Rod]

hope I can help here, the muncie and the BW T-10 are nice transmissions, prone to second gear slider/syncro failure, easy to fix with a no jump/skip 2nd gear slider, and now the 4 speed aspect, its a final 1 to1 ratio, and with 3:55 rear end gears(ideal for autocrossing) you're engine will rev around 3000 rpms at 72 mph on the freeway, that's not a bad number just make sure you don't some noisy flowmaster, 1 chamber magnanoise, cherrybomb side pipe thingys, or the 3000 plus rpms will make your ears bleed after a couple hours of driving to events, and yes I love a good 4 speed, the old saying goes, real cars have 3 pedals bicycles have 2 pedals, ha ha ha ha , just joking but having more gears is always better

[sixfivepost]

hope I can help here, the muncie and the BW T-10 are nice transmissions, prone to second gear slider/syncro failure, easy to fix with a no jump/skip 2nd gear slider, and now the 4 speed aspect, its a final 1 to1 ratio, and with 3:55 rear end gears(ideal for autocrossing) you're engine will rev around 3000 rpms at 72 mph on the freeway, that's not a bad number just make sure you don't some noisy flowmaster, 1 chamber magnanoise, cherrybomb side pipe thingys, or the 3000 plus rpms will make your ears bleed after a couple hours of driving to events, and yes I love a good 4 speed, the old saying goes, real cars have 3 pedals bicycles have 2 pedals, ha ha ha ha , just joking but having more gears is always better

Double post... lol I knew you meant Muncie (and T-10). When I had it rebuilt, thicker, more robust slider/syncros were used. I drove the car for years doing burn outs, drag racing with street tires, and other stupid teenager stuff and never had an issue with the Muncie. Even after 45 years of Arizona heat and abuse, it still looked fairly new inside.

[Steve Chryssos]

Just make sure you research which gears the paddle shift works in and if there's engine braking.

I have a paddle shifted 4L60e and some things were unexpected.

I sent a pm to discuss dialing in your combination. Glad to help in any way.
/Steevo

[csouth]

I'm moving in the same direction with my car, but I'm going 4L80e. You will still need the floor shifter BTW, the paddles are only for forward gears.

[sokoloka]

Stick all the way.
In my opinion that is.

[CreepinDeth]

I'd rather have a stick, but an old fashioned trans in a PT themed car may be a turn off to folks if I ever decide to sell it.
Paddle shifters would be pretty cool and would probably fit the theme better.

I do agree with these comments completely. Paddle shifters are cool for a Pro-Touring car, but ? ? ? a track car.
The old transmission doesn't really go with the Pro-Touring ideology IMO. But we all see things slightly differently.


The third pedal is the man pedal.....my grandma drives an automatic.

LMFAO......love it. I think manuals make a car more fun to drive, instead of being driven.

Paddle shifting is the F-1 theme, and I have no idea how it really performs in a real world application on the race track.
I know automatics are faster lately in many performance cars in the 1/4 mile but that's the 1/4 mile.

I see ALOT more daily driver vehicles being sold with this, and in truth I shy away from it. It's just another VERY costly thing to break.

I'm all for manual transmissions lately, and I like that more manuals are coming out in DD's too.
Car and Driver has a theme going lately.....
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/02/savethemanuals630-1.jpg
I guess I'd do that diligent research on your intended usage before deciding. I'm all for Overdrive transmissions.
If you don't want to cut up your floor, look into a TKO.

[sixfivepost]

All good points!

So, one thing to ask myself... Would I be happy with the slushbox if I only did it to fit a certain theme defined a little differently depending on who the supposed expert at the time is?

Also, is there anything wrong with a tried and true transmission regardless of it's age minus the lack of overdrive? I've seen all kinds of issues with 4L60, 4L70, and 4L80e's. No trans is perfect, they all have issues sooner or later.

With my calculations given wheel diamter, gear ratios, and rear end gearing, I should be able to cruise at 60mph around 2300 rpm which isn't terrible and I really could care less about gas mileage and certainly don't care on twisty roads.

On the other hand, tons of improvements have been made over the past 45 years... lol

Thanks for assisting me with this decision. Keep it coming!

Dan

[Norm Peterson]

I wouldn't ever even try to fit my car into any formulaic "theme", even if it was an "established" general consensus. I'd just build the car I want and let the theme or opinions on where it fits - fall wherever they may.

I've been avoiding efforts to push either direction so far, although there's probably enough hints where I'd take it if it was mine to build given those two choices. One thing if you do go with the Muncie - and decide later that having an overdrive means enough to go back into it again - you'd at least have the clutch issue mostly settled.



FWIW, some version or other of a carb'ed 350 broke the synchro hub in my Malibu's original iron-case Saginaw 4-speed (I'm thinking it was somewhere in the late 1980's), so I went with a T-10. When the T-10 started acting up a bit and I was planning an EFI update to the "350" (about mid to late 1990's) I went with a Tremec TR3550 5 speed. At no time did I ever even think of running an automatic of any sort. Still wouldn't.


Norm

[JEFFTATE]

Go with the Muncie and add a Gear Vendors Overdrive to it .
Or put a Tremec TKO in . You don't have to cut the floor with a TKO .

[sixfivepost]

I forgot to mention that the ONLY reason I'm even caring a little about fitting a theme is for resale if I ever have or want to sell the car. If I cared about fitting a particular theme or popularity contest, I wouldn't have sunk all this $$ into a 65 Chevelle 300 post in the first place. I like having something unique, not to mention that I've had this thing for 20+ years.

I've been looking into the gear vendors idea too.

NORM, what clutch issue are you referring to?

ROD,

Those RPM numbers are similar to what I've calculated. The gears are actually 3.50 (not a huge difference), not 3.55s. It's a Ford 9". 2700 isn't bad and 3000 isn't terrible. Even less if I keep it at around 60 mph.

[CFster]

I'll tell you what though. Paddle shifters get a lot of attention. Take it from me!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[sixfivepost]

They do add to the "gee wiz" factor for sure.

[Norm Peterson]

NORM, what clutch issue are you referring to?
This, from post #1.


There are several kits out there now to mate a Muncie to an LS type engine, but they're not cheap.



Norm

[moreHP]

I think you answered your own question by saying how much you enjoy the manual trans.

[gator1505]

I'm goin with paddle shifters in my 87 Vette and switchin the Olds to a 5spd. I love the Goat with the paddle shifter and dual/gate that is by far my favorite automatic shifter. I had a 71 442 with a dual/gate and my 79 H/O had one

[sixfivepost]

This, from post #1.
Norm

Ah, I've got that one figured out if I decide to keep the Muncie.

[68Formula]

I had a chance to drive a Lambo and Ferrari with paddle shifters. They are a dual clutch design, not really an automatic. I was disappointed at first that they weren't true manuals. But it took less than 5 minutes to change my mind about that.

[MonzaRacer]

Dont forget one thing the power potential of the LSx, even in mild form comes close to maxing out the Muncie. Yes Iknow guys beat the snot out of them BUT the cash involved putting it behind an LSx would be better spent getting say one of the clutchless shifted Tremec(brand?) Wht ever Shafi put in the Dakota,,got to drive one,, now wish I had been able to save clutch pedal from my yellow Monza!
Gear Vendors would work well also.
I still have an old school small button Mr Gasket T handle,,just need to pull switch out to replace wires,, but would be cool also for something like this! Now ya got me dreaming about a stick. Trouble is my Cavalier is stick and darned if it sucks after long day on my feet.

[rockytopper]

I'll tell you what though. Paddle shifters get a lot of attention. Take it from me!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Did you ever get it to work as expected?

[CreepinDeth]

Doh....

[Crossupbill]

Good choice with the Muncie. Clutch cars are so much more fun to drive, and when looking to buy a car, imo, a standard shift is a huge plus over any slushbox auto.

[LS6 Tommy]

People drastically underestimate Muncies. They're easily capable of being upgraded to, maybe beyond, what a Tremec will handle for a lot less than the cost of the Tremec alone. BTW, T10's are weaker than them by quite a bit. The weakest stock Muncie is stronger than the strongest aftermarket T10.

KEEP THE MAN PEDAL!

Tommy