Surprise bill on Project?

[skigoose]

I am just asking the opinion of you guys out there.

The shop working on my car ( and they are doing good work) gave me a quote to assemble my 68 Charger with all the parts I supplied them, they came out 3 times to check parts and est. the job, well we are coming down the home stretch, and all of a sudden they are saying it is gonna take another 50 hours of work..Keep in mind I understand that this is Kinda a custom build, but nothing that they have done was not in the scope of the project est. if anything was needed in addition to what I supplied, I paid them for it right away, now it seems that I have made my final payment and my car is on the back burner in the shop. The owner asked if I would split the hours with him, because of the surprise55065550665506755068, but I am having a problem with accepting that

Any suggestions??

[dmc69]

Depends on how your initial contract was written(If there was a contract). Read over it and use it to your advantage.

[MyFriendScott]

What was this "surprise" work required? You haven't given us the he said, she said details. All you've led us to believe is that the shop is holding your car ransom now until you pay more.

Love the car by the way, wish it were mine.

[MuscleRodz]

what is the reason given for the extra time? These car just don't fall together like we would all hope, and sometimes requires extra attention to properly install the part. Depending on your agreement would depend on whether or not it should be paid. An estimate is just that, an estimate unless your agreement was "X" dollars and not a penny more. I tried to be as clear as possible with my customers as to what will cost "X" and what may cost more on certain tasks of the builds.

[Protour_Pinto]

Things always come up on Custom Builds. Its always a challenge to stick to the ESTIMATE. Some shops will shoot low to get the job then at the end spring extra on you. Talk to some of his past customers and see if its something he has made a habit of doing. At this point you are stuck paying but be sure to let him know that word of mouth and the internet sure make it easy to spread the word.

[gsxrken]

What percentage of the job does 50 hours represent? An estimate is an educated but never in the history of mankind has an estimate been lower than the actual.

[skigoose]

Sorry for not giving all the juicy details, OK, so I and the shop agreed on a price to use all the parts I had, and the shell I provided, they had to Fab a trans mount, and make the Vintage air fit, the job entailed installing the engine and supension (front and rear) running all the lines, trans, and wires, so the car can START, GO (front and back) stop, and the ac would work, I have paid and extra $2500 over for parts they said would work better than what I provided, and would require less time to install, so I agreed, now there is 18 hours left on the job (this is the remainder of what the shop guys have submitted) and the shop guys are saying they have another 50 hours, on top of the 18 left, the whole job was to be 250 huors est, and the price was a fixed amount. I would completely understand if I asked for something extra, or added something to the project, but this is not the case, FYI, I will still be doing the interior, windows, painting, and final connectors for the wires myself, also all the parts they installed, except the AC and wires was test fitted in the car before I gave it to them. took me two 6 hr days by myself without a lift.

[BulldawgMusclecars]

So the estimate is about 20% off, for a custom job? Thats not bad, but did they say why more hours are being required? I often find that aftermarket parts don't fit like they should, or may have issues that have to be worked out for reliability or safety. Not knowing the details its hard to say here, but this is exactly the reason I don't give firm estimates on labor...custom work is just that, custom work, and there is no "book time" on this stuff (I wish there were). I have often stated to customers that doing something for a fixed price ensures that someone is getting taken...either the customer, who was charged too much, or the shop, who didn't charge enough. I'm very concious of quality, but some shops aren't. They realize that they are running out of time/labor money on a job, and start cutting corners. I charge a fair hourly rate, and make adjustments if I think we took too long on a particular job.

[Flash68]

An estimate is an educated but never in the history of mankind has an estimate been lower than the actual.

LOL... ain't that the truth. :)

[MuscleRodz]

Sorry for not giving all the juicy details, OK, so I and the shop agreed on a price to use all the parts I had, and the shell I provided, they had to Fab a trans mount, and make the Vintage air fit, the job entailed installing the engine and supension (front and rear) running all the lines, trans, and wires, so the car can START, GO (front and back) stop, and the ac would work, I have paid and extra $2500 over for parts they said would work better than what I provided, and would require less time to install, so I agreed, now there is 18 hours left on the job (this is the remainder of what the shop guys have submitted) and the shop guys are saying they have another 50 hours, on top of the 18 left, the whole job was to be 250 huors est, and the price was a fixed amount. I would completely understand if I asked for something extra, or added something to the project, but this is not the case, FYI, I will still be doing the interior, windows, painting, and final connectors for the wires myself, also all the parts they installed, except the AC and wires was test fitted in the car before I gave it to them. took me two 6 hr days by myself without a lift.

If they talked you into parts that should have reduced the install time, you should have bankable hours, but if you do not have the fixed cost on paper, you may have to eat the half he agreed to split with you and move on, but not before you put it on paper. BTW, what parts did they not want to use?

[skigoose]

If they talked you into parts that should have reduced the install time, you should have bankable hours, but if you do not have the fixed cost on paper, you may have to eat the half he agreed to split with you and move on, but not before you put it on paper. BTW, what parts did they not want to use?

Orig, I had XV subframe connectors, and they were part of the orig quote, I even provided them with a video of the instalation, said it would take about 10 hrs to get them to install, so they asked if I would use Global West ones and that the XV's would take to long.

I am thinking about splitting the overage, but $$ is very tight now, as I am not working, and I know if I gave someone and estimate to do a job and I went over...I would have to eat it... But this shop was my 4 estimate and they were all about the same, this one was the higest, but the shop was cloest to my house and had very good references.

[MrQuick]

if it wasn't estimated it should then become an "option" for you to take or not. Then builder knows he's in a spot so that would explain the split but i'd negotiate for less or a credit of good faith.


On a side note, if I made an error on a quote I'd have to eat it.

[DRJDVM's '69]

Projects like this always run over...stuff comes up. Its all a matter of degree....... 20% isnt bad....if it was alot higher and you can honestly say that your didnt add stuff or say "while you do this, can we do that too?" after the estimate was made, then I wouldnt be happy

If he's willing to split the "over" with you, and you are happy with all the other work he has done and have a good relationship with the shop, I'd pay my portion of the "over" and get it done.

You're alternative is to say "no, I'm not paying for the stuff over the estimate"....with the results of..

(1) Not get the project done
(2) Have him cave, do the rest of the work and not do a good job because he's pissed and knows he's losing $$..so the work will be crap anyway
(3) Take the car and have someone else finnish it...which will likley cost you more $$ in the long run

[MonzaRacer]

My big question is that the owner and the techs work there, they should have seen that they were going to go over and should have brought it to your attention much sooner in the process.
I have been the tech who messed up an estimate, not 50 hrs worth,,,but I would want a DETAILED reason for such a departure on estimates.
I would go over it with him. Details, also coming to an agreed time frame, payment line if so agreed upon and as said,, in writing.
I understand CUSTOM takes some risk in over or under estimates,, BUT again this should be calmly discussed AND after you both come to an agreed upon deal, recommend he take some measures to NOT have this happen again or a means to renegotiate.
I see both sides, I have NO money and will most likely NOT get what I need to make car run from my taxes. And will most likely use all of it to pay bills and live for another month.
I had hoped to be alive and working by now,,,, still debating asking for some help from family to start a shop of my own.
Good luck.

[skigoose]

Ok, guys here is the the plan.

I am going to agree to $1000, not 1500, and to do this I am selling my 2010 GT500...sounds extreme? well.. I still need to get the windows and interior done, and this is supposed to be my daily driver..so.....here I go, if you want info on my 2010 Shelby GT 500 let me know.

[dj3]

That is not major custom work for them to be off by 50hrs. A shop that does it on a regular basis should be closer to what they quote you.

[DTM Racing]

It is all about responsible quoting. Putting together a good estimate for this type of work takes a lot of time. As soon as the shop knows the estimate is going to go over, the owner should be notified. And the owner should be involved in the build, at a minimum with weekly updates, where parts are, what has come along, where there are stalls, etc. Any "surprise" raises in the estimate are inexcusable.
However, Ned probably hit the nail on the head. If you put him in a bind, there is a good chance that your car will get back-burnered, and the craftsmanship will suffer.

[HUSTLESTUFF]

If you do go the extra $$$$, I would have a deadline that is firm and is $100 a day off for you. 5o hrs is one guy for 6 days. There isn't that much custom in that project. The front end already has mounts for 3d gen hemi, brakes straight forward. Your custom work was mainly in the products you bought IMHO. Mike

[MyFriendScott]

Hard to make those demands about fining the shop if they run over when they have your car as collateral.

[skigoose]

Just an FYI, my labor bill in now PAID IN FULL, and they are trying for an additional 50 hours, any additional they ordered, I have paid for IN FULL. so I do not owe them anymore money, I don't think they can hold my car as collateral, CAN THEY???

[MuscleRodz]

is this 50 on top the 50 in the first post?

[SparkyRnD]

Just an FYI, my labor bill in now PAID IN FULL, and they are trying for an additional 50 hours, any additional they ordered, I have paid for IN FULL. so I do not owe them anymore money, I don't think they can hold my car as collateral, CAN THEY???

Yes, if they decide that there is more money due. Always get things in writing, no matter how nice someone sounds or acts, as without it in writing, it's your word against theirs. Also, make sure you sit down with the shop and go over the estimate, the parts used, the parts changed for 'labor savings' and the hours invested in the car. A good shop will be willing to go over this piece by piece if needed, and look for any possible errors from the original estimate. If you are considered paid in full on the labor, make sure you have a receipt that specifically states that, even if you have to go back and request one after the fact.

[icemanrd19]

off topic but what is their labor rate?

[skigoose]

85/hr

[icemanrd19]

under 300 hrs isnt that bad if you are getting a car completly redone. I wish mine was under that but luckily my shop rate is $50 an hr

[Flash68]

I saw your other thread asking for/about sponsorship.

I don't think it helps your cause on either of these cases (your disputing of the bills by the shop OR the sponsorship deal) that these inquiries both seem to be instigated by financial problems.

If you are truly living off savings, I do not understand how you can responsibly spend another dollar on this car unless it's intended to be finished and then sold.

Many of us have been in that situation and have been there.

Best of luck.

[skigoose]

Flash

The morning I found out I wan't working anymore, I went to the shop to make the final payment, I figured they would finish and I would put it under a cover in my garage until I found another job, that's the day they hit me with the +50hrs.

Also the total job was to install the parts (I already test fitted) run plumbing and wiring, weld in sub frame conectors, and the only fabrication work was to make a trans bracket. I supplied all the parts.

The Shop manager told me about sponsorship, I never even thought of it before that, he said "this car might be interesting to a company to sponsor, maybe they can help you finish it.

I think I want to kill the sponsorship thread as it seemed to piss a lot of people off.

[MetalShaper]

I think you should have taking the deal at 25 hours and been happy with that.It is their responsibility to let you know prior to using all the hours you paid for.They probably should eat it but i think he is at 25. Shop looks like 401k, they are a decent shop.Not high quality by any means though.

[skigoose]

I think you should have taking the deal at 25 hours and been happy with that.It is their responsibility to let you know prior to using all the hours you paid for.They probably should eat it but i think he is at 25. Shop looks like 401k, they are a decent shop.Not high quality by any means though.

Thanks for the input, who would you recommend in the area that is a high quality shop?

[sixfivepost]

All I can say is that your experience is nothing compared to my nightmare of surprises, so don't feel too weird about the extra work. Definitely look into it though.

Shop was recommended to me from a different forum member and a local guy I know. One guy did the smart thing and wrote up his own contract for the shop to sign (found out after the fact), the other guy has tons of cash and doesn't ask questions.

Shop looks over my car, gives me an estimate for a nice driver at $25 grand complete. He even invites my wife an I out to his estate to hang out, BBQ, swim, talk cars, etc. It all felt a little weird in retrospect. It's an AZ car that I've had for 20 years. So, I deposit 10 grand. ONE week goes by and they ask me to send them 3500 bucks for quarter panels and floor. Next thing I know the car is completely torn apart and instead of blasting everything, they spend tons of man hours scraping the paint off by hand. I get a bill for 15 grand! I said WTF? Well, we only do it the right way and we found all this rust and crap. When they estimated the work needed, I told them it needed quarter panels and a floor. The estimate of 25 grand covered that. So I asked. Oh, that was just for labor. Parts, tax, and materials is separate. Where they're at, they can charge tax for labor hours too by the way. So, it was either take the car back in boxes or push through the pain. After quarters, floor, new inner and outer wheel houses, smoothing the rest of the original body panels, primer, nice paint on the body, and a half arse dash board paint job and fire wall "...to save you money because you make us walk on egg shells with your money..." "Our typical questions, don't interfere..." the thing has cost upwards of 60 grand and I still don't have an engine, wiring, transmission, interior, fuel tank, fuel lines, steering, etc, etc. I sold 2 motorcycles, another car, and have emptied a big chunk of my savings because of this fiasco. I'm not rich, I'm active duty military. I've nearly lost interest in cars because of this which is my only real hobby passion besides motorcycles.

I signed a contract because I trusted the shop and a handshake from the owner who said "...we'll go only as far as you want and won't exceed the $25k..." They do decent work, but at $50 bucks an hour, it comes out to about 900 hours in the car plus parts, materials, and tax. There's no way they put 900 man hours in that car. No rotisserie, body was barely off the frame, frame wasn't blasted or stripped down to bare metal, replaced quarter panels, floor, deck between trunk and window, wheel houses, and that's it. Even the trunk floor which was rusty was barely cleaned up and coated with rattle can speckle paint. I smoothed the firewall before they got the car and tore the front end down to the frame rails. They didn't even touch up that which I asked them to.

After so many arguments, and sleepless nights, I can't wait to be done with that mess. I'm picking up the car next weekend and will bring it back here to fix the crap I don't like, re-do a bunch of stuff, and do it the right way.

Sorry for the hijack, but you've got to be careful with shops regardless of recommendations. Read the contract, especially the fine print.

[nacnac]

I had a problem with a shop too. I got my car out of there asap when i realized i wasnt getting what i was paying for. I had to tell the guy that i was out of money and that I'd love to bring it back when i had more, blah blah blah. I never intended to bring it back, i was just hoping to get my car back before it got messy. I should have known from the beginning i was in trouble because he came to my house to look at my car and told me his rate was $50/hour but when i got the first estimate (after it was in his shop), it was $60. Alarms should have gone off but my car was there and it was mainly just rust repair and few other things so i told him to do it. I dont know if i could ever bring it to another shop again. I'd get your car back and argue with the guy later.

[csouth]

..... I'd get your car back and argue with the guy later.
X2... I also agree with an earlier reply that you should look in to some credit for hours where they suggested the Global West parts because they should take less time to install. There has to be some left over hours there. I would make sure there is a ZERO balance left owed. Tell them you want to sit down and discuss what it left owed starting from now. Sit down with them in the evening right before the shop closes and have them give you something in writing saying you owe them NOTHING and this point and all work going forward will be a new bill. Give them the impression you want to let them finish. I would show up right after they open the next morning with a tow truck, this way it would be really hard to say that they did ANY more work from the time they gave you a zero balance statement. IMO, GET YOUR CAR BACK ASAP!!!!

[skigoose]

Ok guys here is another Surprise, for me...Parking brake cable, which was part of the orig est needed to be replaced, so they (shop) got a Lokar, and I paid extra for it, but installation was included in est, now they said I needed a new parking brake pedal to work with cable, FYI the Lokar one is the only one they said would work, another $200+ bucks for part, now they are telling me 5 hours for installation, anyone thing that is a lot of time for a parking brake pedal install?

[Poopy]

I'm about 700 hours over my estimate on finishing my custom project......lol

I do estimates for work, and it's very hard to get labor bang on for custom work. But, that being said.....I don't usually go back to the customer for my error in estimating, or my guys not working fast enough. He should've added a bit of a fudge factor in his estimate, or eat the hours. UNLESS....you added stuff...then you're on your own. ;)

[skigoose]

I agree Poopy

[bikefreak600]

i read every post on here, there is a pattern here. this shop is screwing you. from the sounds of it they are simply bolting a car together correct?.... as stated that YOU PREFIT everything part to be assembled on the car..... it does not sound like they are custom fabricating anything. if this is true, what a joke.

[csouth]

Skigoose- why are you allowing this shop to continue to screw you? After all the posters telling you to get your car(myself included), its still there. I hope you come out of this with some dignity and money for that matter....

[skigoose]

The only custom fab work was the trans cross member, brake lines,wiring, and running the AC & heater lines.

[skigoose]

Chris,
I am learning the game here, I think they are trying to make up for there short comings on the orig est, bottom line is they do good work, and I am holding them to the orig est. of course when I ask for something extra, I do not question there bill, as it always seems fair, but the nickle and dime stuff drives me crazy. We are talking about 18K for them to assemble all the parts I provided them, and I have paid an extra $2,500 for stuff I approved later.

[bikefreak600]

this shop is continuously asking for more money because you keep agreeing to give it too them. it wont stop until you say so. im betting right as the car is completed they add more to the bill assuming you will pay it to get your car back lol

[vintageracer]

Another advertisement for buying a DONE CAR if you cannot build the car yourself!

Find a car you like that will meet your needs, make the best deal you can and SMILE when all your buddies say you paid too much all while they are still working on their POS that will be YEARS IN THE MAKING!

There is a whole lot to said for driving and enjoying your car that you BOUGHT rather dealing with broke guys who run the local fabrication or restoration shop. This statement is NOT an indictment of ALL fabrication and restoration shops but it damn sure covers a lot of them!

[CarlC]

If I was only 20% over the estimates that I figure a Camaro project would take my wife would be thrilled. I'd be at least 80% ahead.

[skigoose]

It's really funny how this all started, I have restored 4 cars in my short 40years, 1. 1965 Mustng, 66 LeMans Convert, 68 Camaro Convert, and 62 Vette, but have never BUILT a car from scratch with all after market parts, and with this MOPAR we had a incident with the body falling off jack stands, and almost killing my dad, so my wife gave me the gift of the shop fees to get car to the point that I wouldn't need a lift, so the GIFT is causing me the most grief, but glad my dad didn't get hurt.

I know how to do builds, and have most of the tools, so it drives me crazy when I get an est for 5 hours to put in a parking brake pedal....I don't mind paing fair prices but...come on 5 Hours!!!

[SparkyRnD]

for them to remove the old (if there), install the new, make sure everything is hooked up right, test it, etc., it could take a couple hours to do it right. But 5 hours does seem a little long (again, that is without me knowing what all is included in their fee to do so). If it were me, knowing that they've done this to you a few different times and you aren't satisfied, it might be worth having them finish up everything, get the car, and find either another shop to finish it, or finish the minor stuff yourself.

[406 Q-ship]

Just an FYI, my labor bill in now PAID IN FULL, and they are trying for an additional 50 hours, any additional they ordered, I have paid for IN FULL. so I do not owe them anymore money, I don't think they can hold my car as collateral, CAN THEY???

Not in California, you can even owe them money and take your property. In Cali the shop only has two recourses when you own money on a bill from an auto shop. They can attach a lean or sue you for the balance........but since you have paid in full they cannot do either of those. You did get a reciept saying that you have paid in full, besides that do you have a written estimate. I would sit down with the shop owner and have them give you an exact tiem accounting on what took the extra 50 hrs, if they can't then I would tell them that it should have been foreseeable and the work has been paid for. If they can come up with reasonable things for why the car will take more time than estimated (vendor parts that did not fit, car was in worse shape than thought to be) then you should pay to get it done. This is why you ALWAYS get a written estimate, it protects you and the shop.

[mikedc]

Another vote to GET THE CAR BACK before you do anything else.

Yes it's your car, yes they can't steal it, and yes its current location is a technicality . . . but still, having it back will completely change the tone of the negotiations. The whole balance of power shifts. Right now you are haggling at the cash register for the finished car you want to walk out with. Once you get the car back then the existing deal has been closed. From that point forward it has become their problem to earn any more future business from you.

[skigoose]

UPDATE!!!

I now have the car back, it seems they installed the trans without the pick-up in it, and there was a tag still there when I got it home that said NO FILTER, NO PICKUP, NO GASKET!! and they still filled it with trans fluid and it leaked everywhere, the power steering lines also leaked, but they just needed to be tightened up, and they told me the rear I had built had a bent axle, but after further checking I noticed they installed the rear caliper wrong on the passengers side and it was binding up, I guess all this is small stuff compared to what others have said, but it still bothers me. Oh Well now it will go off to paint soon,a nd then I have to find some $$ to put interior in, going to buy lottery ticket today....WOOOO....HOOOOO...

[Daves69Coupe]

thats terrible man. Im just reading about your ordeal for the first time and I can believe how often I hear stuff like this happening to ppl. Im glad Ive kept myself from bringing my car to any shop yet. Seems like taking more time and doing it myself leads to less (financial) headaches.

I noticed in the one comment that you brought it to the shop to have them do enough work to not need a lift..... couldnt you of just bought a lift with the amount of money spent at the shop? Or was getting a lift not an option?

[skigoose]

I could only put a low lift in my garage, maybe 4 feet, and then there would have been the additional tools, but for sure I would have been ahead of the game money wise, but the learning curve on things like brake lines, fuel lines and electric (wiring) might have been worth about HALF of what I paid..

[Daves69Coupe]

I could only put a low lift in my garage, maybe 4 feet, and then there would have been the additional tools, but for sure I would have been ahead of the game money wise, but the learning curve on things like brake lines, fuel lines and electric (wiring) might have been worth about HALF of what I paid..

sounds like a lift was out of the question then. Sorry to hear all this man.

Hopefully when you get to take the car down the road for the first time you'll forget about all the other BS and enjoy the car.