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View Full Version : pinion gear shims instead of a crush sleeve for a GM 8.5



WS6
07-09-2005, 03:26 PM
id like to use shims and a spacer to set the preload on my pinion gear when i swap gears. i hate crush sleeves. so im wondering if this is something that is availible to me and where i can get them. i honestly havent asked my gear supplier yet. i plan to ask on monday when i order my gears and bearings, but id like to know in case they cant help me. thanks

chicane67
07-09-2005, 05:09 PM
One of the only places that have them in stock:

Reider Racing (http://www.reiderracing.com/soild_spacers.htm)

sinned
07-09-2005, 06:16 PM
Shims are for setting backlash, carrier pre-load and pinion depth...you need them regardless of what you run for a pinion preload device. The replacement spacer for the crush sleeve are available at just about any supplier of differntial parts. Set-up is crucial to longevity, spacers are very unforgiving.

WS6
07-09-2005, 07:17 PM
thanks guys. any idea on the cost, they didnt mention?

denny your right. a shim pack for the other settings will come with the bearings from my supplier. the spacer also needs shims with it and this is what i was not sure of. like i said i have not even talked to my supplier yet. im hoping they will have it since i get my parts next day usually.

ive done corvette C2/3 rear traling arms a number of times and know how to set these up. the pinion spacer and shims i figure would be similar if youre fimilar with C2/3 traling arms. essentially i just need to have enough spacer/shims in there that i acheive the correct drag(preload) at the pinon nut. what should i torque the pinon nut too though? since theres no sleeve to crush to a point its just tighten down and it is what it is since its going against a solid non crushing spacer. how would i know im against the spacer and not shoving the bearings into the races too much?

also the directions i used in the past for doing a rearend were the yukon gear directions. i got them off randys ring and pinon site. they do not mention pinon depth as a specific number. yet i know some manufactures specify a pinon depth. so what to do? i didnt have problems in the past, but then again it was simple rearend overhauls. new gears werent installed only bearings, races, and seals.

thanks guys.

Norwoodx55
07-09-2005, 07:32 PM
I have used Richmond Gears solid spacer in 2 12 bolts. They come with shims. I got them from either Summit of Jegs..its been a while.
Brett

sinned
07-09-2005, 08:19 PM
Pinion depth has a specific specification but only if you have all of the special tools and measuring devices to obtain that measuremnet. Most guys just use gear pattern to determine proper pinion depth, using Russian Blu it is easy to see.

chicane67
07-09-2005, 08:43 PM
They typically run between 25 and 30 bucks.

....and I use 'Titanium white' oil paint for running patterns. I also dont rely on 'pinion depth checkers' for setting gear sets up. Unfortunately, it doesnt take into consideration for housing irregularities such as core shift, straitness or worked surfaces.... not to mention that a performance build is set up differently than a 'standard' pattern.

sinned
07-09-2005, 09:40 PM
They typically run between 25 and 30 bucks.

....and I use 'Titanium white' oil paint for running patterns. I also dont rely on 'pinion depth checkers' for setting gear sets up. Unfortunately, it doesnt take into consideration for housing irregularities such as core shift, straitness or worked surfaces.... not to mention that a performance build is set up differently than a 'standard' pattern.
Not sure which depth checkers you are referring to but the Kent-Moore and Miller kits very much do account for housing variances. They actually have a calibrated bar that bolts into the carrier bearing saddles and the pinion depth is checked using a dial gauge and a chart that corresponds with the measurement. Of course the pattern ultimately determines that everything was done properly but in the hundreds of differentials I've built it has never been wrong.



Titanium white would work too; actually anything that will "stay" on the gears will work. I've seen regular old wheel bearing grease used.

chicane67
07-09-2005, 11:53 PM
The only time I actually use a depth checker is when a gear set ~wont~ set up thru the normal ways of the black arts. Even then, I have had a few that didnt set up 'by the numbers' with a depth checker. Even true DANA sets for DANA housings like to be one or two deeper in the hole..... so I mearly use the parlay as a sort of guideline. Come to find out, DANA changed the thrust angle on their 36 and 44 Vette sets back in 97-98 and didnt tell anyone. Well needless to say, I had about 10-12 dealership boo-boos come my way for the FA. The checker was useless in this case but priceless in others.

Besides, I pretty much set up everything to 'use specific'.... and the paint tells it like it is...... even signs of run out, which the checker wont do. Then again, I'll pull it apart for a 0.0005" depth change if the paint looks at me wrong... :jump:

WS6
07-10-2005, 08:01 AM
ok i figured the pattern was more important that the actual pinion depth. after all the patter will determine noise and longevity. what will a number do?

one thing that im having a hard time getting my head around since its not in front of me is knowing if i have the right amount of spacer. how do i know im against the spacer and not shoving the bearing into the race really bad in order to obtain the right amount of preload? what should i torque the nut to since it is no longer being used to crush a sleeve and set preload, but merely stay on and not loosen up?

thanks guys.

oh and the bearing kits i buy come with some kind of yellow gear marking compound. its worked fine for me in the past.

chicane67
07-10-2005, 10:56 AM
Whatever you do, the pinion bearings (if new) need to be pre-loaded to 35 rolling inch pounds.

To assure this you need to make darn sure that the bearing races are fully seated. Next, do a dry assembly, but use a few too many shims to give you a feel of where you need to be to get you close to the desired pre-load. You will need an impact gun for this (obviously) and it would be nice to have another pin nut (new and unused.) After you get there, reduce the amount until you get a loaded feel.... and next, install the bearings with some assembly grease/lube and go for your final pre-load at 35 rolling inch pounds.

Pull it apart when you are there, clean the seal surface, put some silicone on the yolk splines, grease/lube the yolk seal surface, lock tite on the nut, gun it down and re-measure the pre load.... and stake the nut.

WS6
07-10-2005, 11:18 AM
thats how i thought i would do it. start out too much and just reduce it slowly. obviously this is the first time ive used a spacer and shims. so basically there isnt a torque setting for the pinion nut. its just get it really tight and make sure the preload is set?

chicane67
07-10-2005, 11:31 AM
Correct. Pre-load set and gun the nut down with red locktite... and then stake it to make sure the nut never backs off.

WS6
07-10-2005, 01:57 PM
thanks i do appreciate the help and info.

WS6
07-15-2005, 04:08 PM
well crap my supplier sent me the wrong spacer so thats going to set me back til next tuesday maybe. had no idea it was wrong til i started having problems. oh well.

anyway, chicane, what are your thoughts on carrier preload? i honestly use yukon gear's instructions for gear setup. they say you really cant get it too tight. right now i have 30inlbs(78 shop manual and gear set says this is good) on the pinion and it spins pretty easily. drags a good bit but thats expected. if i rotate the carrier on one of the ring bolts with a wrench it is pretty tough to do. every thing rotates fine its just pretty hard to rotate at the carrier. less preload would help this im sure which is why im asking your opinion or anyone elses for that matter. im using new bearings. im expecting them to loosen up, but im just trying to make sure i get it right the first time.

so other than me smacking my thumb so hard it explodes and the spacer being messed up everything is going pretty smooth. well there was the one carrier bearing that would not come off and i had to cut and split the inner race to get it off. stupid build tolerances not allowing me to get me puller behind it properly.

thanks

chicane67
07-15-2005, 07:00 PM
How did you install the carrier ?? Meaning, how did you get it into the housing (case spreader or deadblow), and how much effort did it take ??

So far, sounds good. Its kinda hard to measure carrier preload, but I like them tight.... and that include carriers. :naughty:

WS6
07-16-2005, 03:51 AM
dead blow and a brass drift if the spacers needed lining up. so far its just two fairly thick spacers on each side. still need to get my pinion depth set before i check my back lash. it didnt drop right in thats for sure. i had to wack it a number of times with the deadblow to get it in the housing.

chicane67
07-16-2005, 08:02 AM
I take it your using the adjustable carrier shims as well.... ??

WS6
07-16-2005, 06:46 PM
still havent gotten to that point but yes i have shims for the carrier as well. my guess is that the factory didnt need anything more than the two fat shims on each side. they both measured .250. instead of multiples, i guess they had one shim that size. its so thick i just called it a spacer. i have pinion depth set now. monday ill get my back lash and carrier preload done. then its just wait til i get my spacer in for the pinion preload.

WS6
07-18-2005, 05:52 PM
ok its all together except for the spacer on the pinion. have to wait a few more days for the spacer to come in. got my fingers crossed hoping they wont whine. i dont like the pattern i got, but it was the best possible i think. moving the pinion only made it uglier i thought. so well see. didnt need any more carrier shims other than those two spacers that where already in there. they gave me a 007 backlash. i could try to get another few thousands in shims to tighten the backlash up, but i dont know if ill bother. ill see how hard it is to pull the carreir back out to set the pinion preload. might slip in another carrier shim then.

thanks for all your help chicane, i do appreciate it.

chicane67
07-18-2005, 06:59 PM
Uhhhh...

The rule of thumb is 0.001" of back lash, per inch of ring gear, at a minimum. So for you, a number between 0.008 to 0.010" would be paydirt.

If the 'pattern' got uglier... go the other way with depth. But, keep your lash number between 0.008 an 0.010" !!

WS6
07-19-2005, 03:11 PM
hmmm never heard that rule before. ill have to keep that in mind. i followed the GM service manual and thats where i got .005-.008".

I should clarify, my heel and toe pattern looks like crap. I dont like it when drive and coast are on two different points heel and toe wise. in and out though is fine meaning my pinion depth is fine. at least this is what the directions i am following say. so i should be fine but it just looks ugly to me.

sinned
07-19-2005, 04:19 PM
I use .005-.008" on pretty much everything. The eaton stuff we do on the tractors with 14" ring gears spec at .008-.012".


Most factory diff's do not have the smaller shims, that is an aftermarket thing to save money. At the dealer we have literaly hunderds of shims in a variety of thickness'. You just choose the shim you need rather than trying to stack smaller ones to make the shim pack.

chicane67
07-19-2005, 07:24 PM
Well..... the service manual is mearly a guide line. You cant really build a diff from reading a book either.

The smaller the number, the less gearlube, the less impact resistance they have..... within reason, that is. Thinner lubes work well with lower temperatures and lower viscosities / performance lube viscosities need a little more. Besides, depending on the actual gear manufacturer, that too can influence the required amount of lash and/or tooth wipe in the pattern.

But I know what your sayin D.... I must have 6 or 7 hundred pounds of shims from various OE's that I have collected over the years. How many hours have we wasted standing over a collection of shims with a dial caliper finding that 'offest and prelaod stack' that would make the set up fly !?!?!?!? Thank the higher ups for super shims !!!!

sinned
07-19-2005, 07:35 PM
I must have 6 or 7 hundred pounds of shims from various OE's that I have collected over the years. How many hours have we wasted standing over a collection of shims with a dial caliper finding that 'offest and and prelaod stack' that would make the set up fly !?!?!?!? Thank the higher ups for super shims !!!!Oh you too. I hate when you spend an hour measuring shims only to find that you don't have that one shim you need. Or spend 45 minutes going through and have somebody come through and knock the stacks down.

WS6
07-20-2005, 09:55 AM
this is why i try to label everything or section everything. i hate standing there with the cailper measuring different shims and combinations. i hate having to dig through piles of bolts and screws looking for that one needed too.

again thanks for the excellent info chicane and dennis. i do appreciate it.