Thoughts on spec built PT cars.

[MuscleRodz]

I know many of us on this board would not be interested in a spec built PT car, but I am considering selling a car like this to the masses. It would not work for most cars either, but probably could work for Camaros, Mustangs, and Chevelles.

My thoughts were to take say a 69 Camaro. Acid dip, make all metal repairs, may or may not minitub, EDP everything. Assemble the car with a crate motor and tranny with warranty, suspension upgrades, 4 wheel discs, new wiring, etc. Everthing would be new or rebuilt. Nothing fancy or any major mods. (minitub would be the extent of major). Basically make it drivable and leave finish body work (hopefully very little) and interior appointments up to new owner. Bolt on set of nice cheap 17" TTII's for the masses (better than ralleys). Naturally a ton of options for that guy that wants more.

The target market would be someone who couldn't do the work, but always wanted one and has the money to spend. Let them pick their colors and interior. Do you guys think that something like this could work and what would you expect a car like this to cost as a base intro PT car that could be upgraded later. Thanks for your input!

Mike

[ProdigyCustoms]

2 months ago I have the first new 69 Camaro body shell to land on US shores (December they tell me, but I know it means March, LOL) to do something similar. Our plan is to build the car complete with all late model components and try to have as much a national type warranty as possible.
The one problem though will be cost, it will retail for more than most sports cars in the marketplace, so we will test the waters with a test ad in some specific market places. They will have to sell well north of $50k, and I have some concern weather the marketplace can absorb it, but I'll build it, and worst thing that can happen is I end up with a killer car. If I am buried in it, I'll just explain to the wife, I will just have to keep it.

[Stu Seitz]

I know I'm really young compared to some guys but in regards to the new camaro bodies there is just somthing that is cool about cars that are a lot older then me. I think a lot of the compasion that I feel twards my car would be lost if it wast not made in the muslce car era. I know that in reality the cars would be the same but it wouldn't have the high milage =) or that great gas smell.

[ZZ430]

I think it's a good idea.

Just look at the custom chopper market right now. Quite a few guys doing that with bikes.

Keeping the cost down is the hard part.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The short supply of restorable bodies resonable priced is the problem. I work close with a guy I share my dealer liscence with, that builds early Camaros. He builds everything from original exotica, to clones, to nothing 307 cars. The hard thing about that part of the business is finding shells. Everything is JUNK, and if it is not junk, it's crazy money. By the time we finish a body, weather we pay a lot for a clean shell not needing much, or get a cheap one that needs a lot, either way we are at $10K minumum before finish bodywork.
The new bodies are $10,000 also, but it is ready now, and the money saved on not needing a sheetmetal shop, and not paying overhead while building (rebuilding) the body, makes it a deal if it is a nice piece.

[camcojb]

How would you do the vin on these new bodies? Buy a project and transfer the numbers or register as a kit?

Jody

[MuscleRodz]

I don't feel a kit 69 will bring the money like aftermarket streetrods do. $10K for a titled body that is ready to head to the paint shop is about what I figured. Another $5-7K for motor, tranny and drivetrain, and $3-5K for everything else plus assembly. I am not talking about building an ultimate killer car, I am talking about a basic start up car, inexpensive ZZ4 crate motor or similar, Auto or manual from reputable shop that would give a decent warranty, complete disc brake system retro fitted off later model car (all good stuff), Vintage air, 17x8 TTII's or cheap equivilent, basic cheap suspension upgrades, nothing fancy. Car would be completely EDP inside and out, assembled and driveable, interior ready for their choice of color and style, no radio, all the new owner would need to do is drive it to their favorite paint shop and decide on the level they want to pay for.

By not trying to finish a car, I can better control the finish cost with the exception of bodywork unless i always plan for the worst. I am trying to build a car to sell that is ready to personalize. Yeh, they might spend $40K-$50K or more when done, but it is easier to spoon feed costs to the masses rather than cram it down their throat. I would like to think I could sell one ready to personalize around $25K give or take.

Mike

[MrQuick]

Hey guys, camaro bodies are very hard to find but in 2 months I have found 2 repaiable bodies. I have 6 guys looking around for me. I just picked up a 69 fire bird shell for $300 and a registered title.
Frank, are these bodies you are talking about hard tops or verts? I would like to see the bodies up close to see if they are close to the originals. Curious cause some of the dii and goodmark stuff is /feels flimsy.
Jody you would have to register them as a kit/special constructed car or get a title...which is illegal to do but I won't say anything. As a kit car it would have to be smogged at the year of the engine but it would read the year it was registered not constructed.

[rockdogz]

Musclerodz,
I don't know how you figure on the $25K figure. I'm already at $50K and haven't even started paint/body work. My shell cost $3500. This is only parts - I'm doing all the labor myself. Maybe if you buy all cheap parts, but in some cases (DSE mini-tub kit, for example) if you don't buy a kit then you're talking more labor (manually tub the car for example). Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but I think you need to add up all those parts you're talking about and get an accurate figure. You don't want to buy crappy parts and have customers be unsatisfied with the end result.

Prodigy, where are you getting the new bodies? This will be the way almost all 1st gens are done in the future, no doubt...

[MrQuick]

Im sure if something happens and 69 Camaros get popular maybe you could put a Unique Performance price tag of 150 grand and people would buy...hell Elenore was only in one movie and they are buying up everything. Before the movie they weren't that popular...look what Nash Bridges did with the 71 Hemi Cuda verts...a clone used in the show with a 340 actioned for $135 grand. I've built some pretty decent looking/performing cars for way under 25k so its not impossible.

[MuscleRodz]

Rockdogz, you are building a top level PT car with all the goodies and spending the dollars to go with it. My previous posts said BASE meaning intro PT car, not what you are building. Take your $50K and subtract the 502, new 6 speed, front runner drive, DSE mini tub kit (not required to be PT), and all the other cool stuff you have and replace it with essentials and add easy suspension upgrades for better handling, inexpensive set of wheels and Vintage Air Sure Fit system.

I think you car will be bad a$$ when its done, but you have spent the money to personalize it. I am not spending the personalizing money, only what it takes to get to that point. As in my last post, the new owner may see $40K-$50K when its done to his tastes, but it is easier to sell cars at $25K instead of $50K or more. $25K was a figure I through out that would be nice to be in the area of. My car, the only thing I have farmed out is sheetmetal, motor, and interior when I get there. I will have $30K-$40k In my 68 Camaro not including the several thousand hours I took to build it.

The point to this thread was to contimplate building intro cars that follow the PT movement to get more people interested. If you get right down to it, there is a handful of cars on this site that are being built to a higher spec than I am talking about. (ie. Due front clip, Bear Brakes, DSE mini-tub kit, 6 speed, Camaros). The goal is to get people to buy the $25K base price car and bolt on the LS1 6 speed, minitub kit, Due front clip, roll bar, $5K wheels and tires and spend that $50K to have you do it. You have to get the people's attention somehow, I don't think its with the $75K price tag, take it or leave it.

Mike

[GT350Clone]

There are several companies doing spec-built hotrod vintage Mustangs. Note the pricing! :rolleyes5 I know they struggle to find shells, then you have all the resto costs, and all new components thruout. I'm not sure their pricing is realistic, but yours may be too low!

There must be some money in it, as there are more & more of these springing up.

GT350SR (http://www.gt350sr.com/GT350SR.aspx)
Terlingua Mustang (http://www.terlinguaracingteam.com/index.mvc?Session_ID=&scr=home)
'Eleanor" (http://www.gt350sr.com/base.aspx)

[Geeto67]

not to hijack this thread but.....anybody have a good picture of these new camaro bodies? Also who is the supplier?

Back when I did corvettes I remember a 1957 corvette body being reproduced for about the same money. It's exact dimensions were spot on twith the original cars and the body slipped right on a stock frame and used all the factory components. The onyl difference was the body was one piece (no bonding strips) where as the originals were peiced together and had bonding strips on the inside (you could easily put the bonding strips on the new body). The bodys were even press molded just like originals. I remember most corvette dealers had a hard time selling this new body (there was even a tube frame chassis available for another $10K that used stock bodys and c4/c5 suspension). Still there must be a market for it because the body and tube frame are still around and you can build an awsome rolling pro-touring car for around 25-30K if you do all the work youself.



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

http://www.parts123.com/PartFrame.asp?ZTM=cadefibe&GHOME=www.corvettecentral.com&TITLE=Corvette_Central

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Steve Chryssos]

MuscleRodz,
I checked out your website. Very trick car. Noone has to tell you about the cost and effort associated with building a hot rod.
Many of industry's most successful companies started with ideas that "couldn't be done" according to others. If you want to proceed with the idea and you know what you're in for--I say go for it!! But it's a hell of a challenge.
It can't be done (there it is again) without deep pockets, one hell of a plan and a steep learning curve (time). Building one or a few cars is entirely different than building cars on a production basis. I learned this lesson working for a casting manufacturer/engine builder who started down the crate engine path (and ultimately succeeded). But along the way, the learning curve was almost insurmountable. It turns out that building 25, 50 or 100 of the same "spec" engines presented unique challenges not found in the one-at-a-time custom engine business. It would take a textbook to layout all of those challenges so I'll leave you with one or two:

1) People's expectations change when purchasing turn-key, production oriented products. They take on a "consumer" mentality as opposed to the traditional hot rod customer perspective. Your cars will have to be more than good. They will have to be consistent and beyond scrutiny. Otherwise the comebacks alone could bury you.
2) Becoming a vehicle manufacturer will immediately result in many visits from various government agencies.

So if you want to proceed, then best course of action is to start with seven digit funding and more importantly--ONLY SELL ROLLERS!! Do NOT sell anything resembling a turn-key car. Envision and develop a product that the customer will trailer away. Work your way up to a product that the customer can actually drive away.
Good luck
/Steevo

[Little Bob]

Camaros are getting big bucks now. Maybe try doing it with something that is not on such a demand, like (Nova, Chevelle, LeMans, Fire Birds and early to mid 70's camaros and Fire Birds).

I hope I don't affend anyone with this reply. But the facts are out there. It's not just that those cars not as popular. But they produced a lot more of those bodies. Also a lot of those cars have interchangable parts.

Plus with the tallent out thier. Any car can be made to handle and look totaly cool.

[MuscleRodz]

To satisfy the request for pics for the new body. Here it is along with the link. http://www.thepartsplaceinc.com/gallery.asp?Category_ID=4 Now back to the subject at hand.

Mike
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[BRIAN]

I think the problem is guys have to stop thinking these are $20k cars. Look at Ebay there are tons of these rides going for close to the $40-50k mark. It is nearly impossible to build a top quality car for under $40k and that is with doing all the work yourself. There are a lot of ideas of what quality is so if you just crammed a 90k mile used ls1 into a quick painted shell I don't expect you to get the $50k pricing.
I have turned down offers to do Camaros just because a lot of times the owners just can't comprehend the cost of building a car. Now the Street Rod guys are the exact opposite and that is why the heavy hitters cater to them. These are middle aged upper middle class guys with high budgets. Sooner or later the age will catch up and the cost of these cars will also rise. I don't think it is far off and bet you will see some big buck touring style Camaros at Barrett Jackson this year.
I would say a full tilt rotisserie car with modern Vette style performance would be up near $65-70 to somewhat break a profit that is worthwhile. That new shell I think will change the Camaro and musclecar market as guys who would never touch them because of having to deal with the rust will and deliver some killer big buck rides. Good luck and I think with targeting the right market there is a profit to be made. Look at those Eleanor clones. They can't build enough. Build one go West and hit the shows and wind up at Barrett Jackson. You will then have a following.

[68protouring454]

are they only making rag tops? or are they making both?? looks real nice
jake

[BB69]

Take a look at the latest Hot Rod, the cover is of a brand new 69 Camaro vert. Coupes are next and then on to the Mustangs and Cudas. The vert body should sell for between $10-12K they said.

The only problem I see with selling BASE cars is that the people doing this will still want to know what to do with the car. They will need to be walked by the hand through all upgrades, and if they aren't happy, it will be your fault. Of course, that's where many people make their money, is convincing people they ARE happy.

If you take a look at the custom bike places though, you will see they make most of their money selling parts and other merchandice. The full on custom bikes don't even get sold half the time. They are only there to pull people in the showroom. The real money is selling the fenders and t-shirts.

You can do it, but you need to understand exactly what you are trying to sell, a car, an image, knowledge, etc.

[MuscleRodz]

BB69, you are getting close to my thinking. Its kind of like a car maunufacturer, they don't really make their money on the base models, they make it on the options, that $6995 price on the window and the 50% off MSRP sales is just to get you in the door. If you can get them to buy the "kit" if you want to call it, more often than not they will buy some or all the upgrades depending on the budget. I am not just trying reach the deep pockets, but also the guy who had to save his pennies and eat roman noodles just to get it. The larger your target market, the better the chance of survivng.

Mike

[Fluid Power]

You answered your own question Mike, "The larger your target market, the better the chance of survivng." My gut is telling me that looking at just the PT car is short sighted at best, what about the z/28 guys, the yenko, nicky, baldwin clones? or just a plain dog dish sleeper witha big block... Having owned 3 successfull business (none of them car related :) ) I will never tell anyone not to try. The best advice I can ever give anyone is write a business plan. Go to the local 'brary and check out a couple of books on writing business plans. If your idea will work, prove it in writing. If you don't have the stick-to-it-ness to write a good plan...good luck with your business.."failing to plan is planning to fail". I personally would love to be involved with something like this...Hell the fiberglass Nova guy was getting like 80K or something crazy for those cars.....

Darren

[ProdigyCustoms]

Jody, they will have to be scratch builds as there simply are not enough dead donors for VINs. While not technically legal, I suspect this is how most will be used though.
The emissions and things like bumpers, air bags, safety stuff are obstacles, but it most of these things, it appears can be overcome in small production.
I have another business that builds Amphibious Tour vehicles. 6 Wheel drive, all terrain, 41 passenger buses that also are boats. We have to title these also. It is very similar to custom built choppers.
The one issue that is a biggy right now that no one has mentioned is insurance. lets assume it is $50K +, with no book for value, it is very difficult to insure. Custom choppers are the same way. You almost cannot buy insurance for a bike without a manufactures number and a book value.
I am looking into these things, we will see what happens. Also, someone asked about coupe or convertible. Right now they are only 1969 convertibles, and I also want to see it up close for quality and strength.
Mike, your figures and cost are way off. $5K to $7K for the motor and trans is WAY off for new stuff. You can easily double that, and also better automaticly double any other cost you think of.

[camcojb]

Jody, they will have to be scratch builds as there simply are not enough dead donors for VINs. While not technically legal, I suspect this is how most will be used though.
The emissions and things like bumpers, air bags, safety stuff are obstacles, but it most of these things, it appears can be overcome in small production.
I have another business that builds Amphibious Tour vehicles. 6 Wheel drive, all terrain, 41 passenger buses that also are boats. We have to title these also. It is very similar to custom built choppers.
The one issue that is a biggy right now that no one has mentioned is insurance. lets assume it is $50K +, with no book for value, it is very difficult to insure. Custom choppers are the same way. You almost cannot buy insurance for a bike without a manufactures number and a book value.
I am looking into these things, we will see what happens. Also, someone asked about coupe or convertible. Right now they are only 1969 convertibles, and I also want to see it up close for quality and strength.
Mike, your figures and cost are way off. $5K to $7K for the motor and trans is WAY off for new stuff. You can easily double that, and also better automaticly double any other cost you think of.

Thanks! I actually have considered doing something similar with a friend of mine, but the changing price of the raw cars is a big issue. I hadn't considered doing these new bodies, not real cars in my opinion. Have nothing against replica and kit cars, have had a couple myself. But not a Camaro.

Jody

[ProdigyCustoms]

Jody, I am more then sckeptical about what the body will be. I have been real vocal in the past about my dis satisfaction with repo panels. I can only imagine an entire car!
I am a long time distributor for a huge vendor, so i get what i feel is straight talk in most cases. I have recieved some pretty strong assurances from the industry Camaro parts leader (not Parts Place, that body on their site is widely rumored to not be a new body) that these new bodies are being built with all retooled panels. I went ahead and ordered one, I get a killer discount anyway. If I hate it, I can sell it or I can return it!
There are other issues with building the cars. There are some parts that simply are not available, and others that are just horrible quality parts, so there will still be a fair share of scavenged parts and headaches. I'm only looking to build a few cars, like 69 or so..............

[Geeto67]

does anybody know if these are also the new bodies or if this guy is just restoring old bodies?

http://www.mikescustomcars.com/69bodies.htm

[Steve Chryssos]

Jody, I am more then sckeptical about what the body will be. I have been real vocal in the past about my dis satisfaction with repo panels. I can only imagine an entire car!


Good point Frank!! The stacked tolerances on this thing could be scary. What are the odds that everything bolts on in the right place? And what to do about subframes??

[Doug Harden]

Good point Frank!! The stacked tolerances on this thing could be scary. What are the odds that everything bolts on in the right place? And what to do about subframes??

They "claim" tighter tolerances than OEM....something like 0.020".

I too, have thought long and hard about building these...but somewhere around $75k, finished is where I landed....

[BB69]

People will buy these things if you cater to the money. If in doubt, take a look at the dune buggy rage going on in Southern California. Many of those guys are paying $75,000 for a turn-key dune buggy (twin tubro'd Northstars or LS1's, huge suspension, power steering, etc). Again, the key is going to be customer satisfaction. The requirements for making someone spending that kind of money happy are unbelievable. But, if you make them happy, they will wait in line to pay you. A good friend just waited over six months to get his dune buggy rolling chassis. He paid close to $30K for a chassis with no engine, no transmission, no brake lines, no paint, etc. However, the welds were prefect, the bends in the tubing were perfect, the suspension design is bulletproof, and everything bolts up the way it should. Make the car right, and people will buy it.

[MarkM66]

It is nearly impossible to build a top quality car for under $40k and that is with doing all the work yourself

For some maybe. Unless everything we do is junk :rolleyes: . But we do EVERYTHING. Including interiors.

[BRIAN]

We are obviusly talking about 2 different types of builds because $40k is low to build cost for a top shelf car from the ground up. A nice driver yes, I fully agree but that is not what the above is about. How do you turn a bare shell into a $40k car?? Majic wand maybe??
iI am actually keeping track of everything not the price you told your girl. Hey prices have gone up to reflect the quality of parts being used.
Old restos used to have about $500 alotted towards brakes now that can easily eat up $3500. Quality parts cost money there is no majic way around it.

[MuscleRodz]

Prodigy,
Right out of Jegs, I can buy a 330 hp HO350 GM crate motor carb to oil pan for 3400, GM sepentine accy drive with accy's for 540, starter for 150, TCI 700R4 for 1500 and stall converter for 300, which adds up to 5900 and leaves 1100 for anything I forgot. Thats all new parts. It may not be bling bling covered in polish or chrome, and its not an LS1 and 6 speed, but it will get the job done well for 9 out 10 of us.

Now if you look at http://www.mikescustomcars.com/69bodies.htm and add and engine, tranny, and drivetrain, you got basically what I have been trying to talk about, not a finished car like most are discussing. And at $17K for a done shell, there is probably some profit in there somewhere. So how is $25K out of line for a basically complete starter "kit"? As I said before $25 is a like to stay near number. I agree with everydody, a finish car will run $50K to stupid, but not everybody has that kind of money.

Mike

Mike

[THE PEARL CYCLONE]

Mike, your way off base, I have been doing the same thing for a year and a half, it took 6 months to find a rolling chasis, I finally took a piece of junk, and gladly paid 3,500. for it. Now I am up to $80,000. plus, of course I am trying to go top of line on all the parts and components. Check it out at. http://community.webshots.com/user/jimmanfred

The Pearl Cyclone

[Drewhelm]

Mike,

I believe in you, brother! It can be done! I know you're not talking about a full blown/fully complete show car for the $25K. It seems most of the guys think you are planning to sell COMPLETE show quality full blown PT cars for the $25K price.....that won't happen.

It IS possible to build a starter vehicle with new drivetrain components, brakes, and either a refurbished or aftermarket body and NO INTERIOR or PAINT if you have the means to do it. If you farm out EVERYTHING on the car it's not as likely. I know you are talking about doing this as a business so it would be completed inhouse. It's very feasible.

As for "mikescustomcars" Those appear to be repaired original bodies. And given the fact that he takes "cores" only supports that assumption. He is taking the original body and hanging repro sheetmetal to repair it.

I never saw anything where you mentioned using original cars for the vin tags for registration purposes of new bodies, but someone brought it up. That would be illegal. A reproduction body would most likely have to be titled as a kit car and a production number could be stamped by the builder.

Drew

[Drewhelm]

Pearl,

Your car is MUCH farther along than what Mike is suggesting. You're interior and body is finished. He will be able to charge a premium for disassembly and paint or the buyer can take it to a show of their choice for paint and interior.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Look, I have a bit of experiance here. i do not want to break your heart or ruin your dream,but.....no bull****, I have done at least 50 Camaros alone, not to mention countless other cars, nut and bolt restorations.
First off, there is so much more to making a car run then what you have listed, the tiny **** will eat your lunch.
I am a distributor for OER (Classic), if I order one each of everything they sell for a first gen Camaro, I am way north of $7000, and that is with my discount, and not counting any engine, bolt ons, cooling, brakes, transmission, converter, drive shaft, differential, tires, wheels, and lets not forget labor!
Bare minimum for a full nut and bolt restoration (essentially what you are doing), is 600 hours minimum, 800 to 1000 is closer to reality. Remember also, working with extensive repo parts will make you pre maturely gray.
Now I still manufacture in my amphibious bus business, however I have scaled way down and only tinker with a couple a year now. I recently ended a 24 unit contract and I used to employee 24 mechanics, fabricators, welders, helpers, etc. My average cost of labor was $26.14 per hour after you added average labor wage, FICA, Workers Comp, And garage liability which is directly proportionate to payroll. That $26.14 included an average of lead mechanics and lead welders in the mid $25 range, helpers in the $8 range, and everything in between. Also, not included at all is overhead including Rent / mortgage, utilities, office help, etc. Lets assume around $2500 a month for a 4 bay shop, and lets assume a production of 1 car a month (not likely from a 4 stall shop).
So using the low number of 600 hours, and an average cost of labor of $26, your at $15,600 for labor + $2500 overhead per unit, + $7000 to Classic industries, $7000 (using your number) for drive train, $2000 for brakes, $1500 for wheels and tires using your 17" TTs, you are at $35K in quick math, and we ain't done yet! Now I know you are not going to paint them, so knock off $5K, your still around $30k cost, and those numbers are light 25%, but I am just being nice.
I guess you could sell them for $25k each, do like all the new car dealers, and lose money on every deal, but make it up in volume? LOL!
Serious dude, The $70k number mentioned earlier is probably more real.
In closing, another thing you have to consider. Who is going to pay $25K for a nothing Camaro, that still needs paint? Why wouldn't they just build there own if it is nothing special? While original muscle Camaros have gone way up in value, plan jain, small block, mild motored, nothing first gens with a set of wheels and some bolt ons, only bring $15k, $20 in a rare instance.

[BRIAN]

PRODIGY you are dead on! The posts regarding the $25k are the problem with getting someone to understand the actual cost to build a car. Everybody likes to open a catalog and look at the major parts and just simply forget about the remaining parts to complete the car. What about wiring? Heck the fluids alone will be another $125. Weatherstripping? etc, etc. Actually you have a good idea with the selling a sort of kit but have to come to terms that it will be higher priced. If not you will sink when the purchaser finds out he needs another $20k to finish to get what he wants. Problem is every body who works on cars feels that they can do it for less as you do.
I honestly think fully done Camaros will sell well above $65k for an individually tailored streetable modern handling car. Once again look at the Eleanor cars and they only offer one style. Once the big dollar guys see Camaros built to Street Rod detail standards they will jump aboard. like I said earlier I bet there will be big dollar pro touring style cars at Barrett Jackson this year which could easily open the door to your business. Problem is I am guessing the larger shops are already onto this.

[MuscleRodz]

I haven't built 50 cars, but I have built 30 antique airplanes and a handful of cars and understand the nickels and dimes can kill a budget. The $25K number was merely a goal to shoot for to try and see if it could be built to a certain point without breaking the bank. If not, oh well nothing ventured nothing gained.

Hopefully in a month or so i will have my manufacturing business sold and get my 68 Camaro done and start on a new build to see what a spec built car will cost. When the time comes I will be sure to stir you guys up again. :poke: :lol:

Mike

[MarkM66]

We are obviusly talking about 2 different types of builds because $40k is low to build cost for a top shelf car from the ground up. A nice driver yes, I fully agree but that is not what the above is about. How do you turn a bare shell into a $40k car?? Majic wand maybe??
iI am actually keeping track of everything not the price you told your girl. Hey prices have gone up to reflect the quality of parts being used.
Old restos used to have about $500 alotted towards brakes now that can easily eat up $3500. Quality parts cost money there is no majic way around it.

Thanks for the edumacation, :hammer: . I guess a Top 5 "Custom of The Year", is just a good driver, :banghead: .

Are you talking about what it cost you to build a car, or what you're trying to charge someone to build a car?

I guess if you're going balls out an top notch parts, they yes, obviously you could spend $40k easy. But you can put top notch parts on a s-box, and it's not going to make it a top notch car. You can also build a car with top notch quality, and no one will really care if you have stock Vette calipers/rotors, ie $500 syetem, as compared to $3,500 Alcons, or whatever.

So don't tell me if you haven't spent at least $40k in a car, it's not a quality car, and just a "nice driver", because that's totally bs!

Can we see some of your builds?