Power and Efficiency

[robotix]

I know a lot of people in the Pro-Touring community like to use their cars for racing, and often do, while others use them as their daily drivers.
So, here's my ridiculously newb-ish question:

After looking into cars, like the 1969 Chevelle, 1968 Cougar, etc, I've noticed that for about 200-300 horsepower, they suck gas worse than even a Wankel Rotary Engine. So, I'm curious; how can I purchase a beautiful classic muscle car, and not only build up it's power, but also it's efficiency?

My goal would be to, over time, create a car that loves to take on the track, placing well- not looking to modern Corvettes or the like- but would also be a great daily driver, that would be something that I'd look forward to driving every day. After being given a chance to drive a 2008 GT500 convertible, I realized how much I love to have that power, and it even makes highway mpg around 20. There's just too many modern mustangs out there, and shelling out 30k for one seems almost foolish..

So, how could I get the same sort of a rush, without the classic rush of fuel, as well?

~Eric

[solarguy09]

Seems like people are installing Modern technology..LS motors..six speeds...

I am running old school factory engine, and my mileage and top end are terrible..

0 to 120 is a blast...and 8 miles to the gallon..

New motors with six speeds are getting 400 plus HP and 20 MPG...

[Rileys68Camaro]

The old engines are worse on gas, but you can help by adding fuel injection or if you can afford it, install a LS1 engine from a newer Chevy.

[robotix]

The old engines are worse on gas, but you can help by adding fuel injection or if you can afford it, install a LS1 engine from a newer Chevy.

I'm talking taking something like a $5000 '68 Cougar with AT LEAST a straight body, and having anywhere from 10-15k to work with. Would there be more efficient engine/transmission combinations from Ford (just to keep it brand-equivalent to reduce the number of heart attacks from site-seers) that would do well here? (Keep in mind the 10-15 is for everything from interior, to paint, to brakes and suspension, etc)

But is a new motor and transmission the only way to go other than a fuel-injection conversion?

[Rod]

68 cougar! that's easy the ford guys love to swap in the newer mustang 5.0 into everything! hell we even had one in a Limo (shop car) it was fun, lots of 5.0 swap guys out there, 10 -15 racks for the work? no way unless you do 99% yourself and then 10-15 is no problem and more can be spent on the parts if you do the labor!!

[SparkyRnD]

The modern motor-trans-electronics swap makes all of the difference. If you want to keep a car original, then you will never have the power, performance and mileage of the late model swaps. Plan on spending at least 3thou to 5thou minimum on the conversion when it is all over with, plus the cost of the car and other upgrades.

[robotix]

68 cougar! that's easy the ford guys love to swap in the newer mustang 5.0 into everything! hell we even had one in a Limo (shop car) it was fun, lots of 5.0 swap guys out there, 10 -15 racks for the work? no way unless you do 99% yourself and then 10-15 is no problem and more can be spent on the parts if you do the labor!!

Lol. Yeah, a 68 Cougar! My mother's first car was a '68 XR-7. My father and I would do every bit of the work we possibly could; I said 10-15 out of hope. The most I could possibly work with is 20-25. If I couldn't make that, then I'd just go for the '08 GT500 convertible! lol


The modern motor-trans-electronics swap makes all of the difference. If you want to keep a car original, then you will never have the power, performance and mileage of the late model swaps. Plan on spending at least 3thou to 5thou minimum on the conversion when it is all over with, plus the cost of the car and other upgrades.

It's just sad to know that that's what it all comes down to. Working on the older motors is far easier; guess I just need to do some studying. lol

~Eric

[SparkyRnD]

it is much easier now than it was 10, 5 or even 2 years ago. There are companies all over that will retune your new ECM, and others that will modify the donor harness (removing wires you don't need, labeling those you do). It is sad that there is no way to make the same power, mileage or efficiency with the older stuff, but it's just something I have come to be okay with. I also like the fact that I can take a lap top or a smart phone, plug it into a cord and connect it to a port, and see what my motor is doing and how to improve it. There is a learning curve, but there are a lot of people out there that can take that burden off your hands for very reasonable amounts of money. Many can do the tuning over the computer live, via remote desktop.

[robotix]

it is much easier now than it was 10, 5 or even 2 years ago. There are companies all over that will retune your new ECM, and others that will modify the donor harness (removing wires you don't need, labeling those you do). It is sad that there is no way to make the same power, mileage or efficiency with the older stuff, but it's just something I have come to be okay with. I also like the fact that I can take a lap top or a smart phone, plug it into a cord and connect it to a port, and see what my motor is doing and how to improve it. There is a learning curve, but there are a lot of people out there that can take that burden off your hands for very reasonable amounts of money. Many can do the tuning over the computer live, via remote desktop.

That's really neat! I don't mind learning, but if it's reasonable enough it'd probably be a better idea to let someone with experience do it right the first time.
It really is sad, though, that the engines that LOOKED like engines can't perform on the same level..
I like the idea of having someone remove the excess clutter, too.
Would it be better to go with a donor engine & transmission, or to buy a crate?

[SparkyRnD]

I prefer the donor, as it is much less expensive and most are basic driver motors that still have half of their life left. Also, with a donor motor and transmission, you will get the accessories in most cases, all of the brackets, ECM, wiring harnesses, bolts, transmission parts (converter if automatic, or clutch components if manual). Install it, run it and drive it until it's worn out, then do a basic rebuild. Crate motors are great if you have a lot to spend, dont get me wrong, but if you are on a budget, the donor set up is a great route.

[robotix]

I prefer the donor, as it is much less expensive and most are basic driver motors that still have half of their life left. Also, with a donor motor and transmission, you will get the accessories in most cases, all of the brackets, ECM, wiring harnesses, bolts, transmission parts (converter if automatic, or clutch components if manual). Install it, run it and drive it until it's worn out, then do a basic rebuild. Crate motors are great if you have a lot to spend, dont get me wrong, but if you are on a budget, the donor set up is a great route.

Lol. My newbie questions continue. I'm looking at a max of 30k all in all, and I've got a time restraint that's just as important, if not more; I'm looking at about 6 months max.
Should I just look at a new vehicle? I really love the 60's muscle cars, but I've GOT to have it built before college (I graduate this year) and if I can't finish it before the summer, I'd be in for some trouble.

[SparkyRnD]

Sure, it can be done and easily (check out our build, Project Sabre). You just have to prioritize the build. Get the car, and be willing to spend more for one with a better body as that will save you time and money later in paint & bodywork. Make sure to research the conversion, see what others have done, and make sure to find if there are companies that make bolt-in conversion mounts (again, this saves time and money). For the drivetrain, research what you want and then go to car-part.com and find a vendor that sells it for a decent price, and call / talk to them and make sure you know what is and is not included.

If you stay away from the shiny items for now, you can achieve your goal with plenty of time to spare. Worry about getting the drivetrain swapped and running, getting brakes and wiring upgraded, and address basic safety issues first. Interior, paint, body, wheels and tires can all come later after you have the car on the road.

If you can find a car in really good shape, with a great condition body and drivetrain, for under $5,000, you can make it happen easily. Spend roughly $4,000 on drivetrain and conversion parts, another $3,000 on exhaust, wiring, fuel system and brakes. Spend around $4-5,000 on suspension, and $2,000 budgeted for miscellaneous items. You'll have around $20,000 invested at that point. Add wheels and tires for another $5,000 and you'll have money left over for interior and other goodies. Paint and body could be factored in, but again if you have bought a great condition, straight car that doesn't need a lot of body work, it won't cost much to get you where you want price wise.

Our entire Sabre build will be around $40-45,000 including purchase price, paint, and everything, including labor for a shop to build it. We are also selling every part we don't use to help recoup some of our money (which is also factored in to the overall price). If we did it ourselves and didn't use a shop, that would drop us down at least 10-$14,000. All of this is to show that a great protouring car can be built for a reasonable amount, as long as you don't set the sky as the limit. Also, be sure to keep a spreadsheet listing out every possible part and a realistic amount that each part will cost. Include items like hoses, belts, plugs, wires, fluids and other minor items, as they will add up over the course of your build.

[Rileys68Camaro]

It's hard to say on the budget and time, but you need a solid plan top to bottom. I didn't, spent way too much on extras and such and now 10yrs later, not driving my car.

So, I would suggest to find a solid driver and go from there. You can drive and get parts while you enjoy it a little. Then a tear down if it needs it, do the frame and the under body at this time and the body and paint. I would suggest cleaning up the motor and transmission(try to find a car with the transmission you want, auto or manual) after body and paint if you get in a crunch you can use the original engine and transmission etc to get by. Then, if you have budget, you can be getting a different engine and transmission and do the swap over summer break probably.

Just me, and kinda of where I'm at. I have a old style crate and transmission that I'm going to paint and install until I can afford an LS1 or fuel injection. Right now I'm doing the suspension and frame and planning for the other upgrades with getting an electric fuel pump etc as I go.

I realize the economy and power is important, but the engine and transmission is down the road. Get the body done and the suspension and brakes done then you can drive the car with the old engine while you work on upgrades to the interior and extras like better radiator and such.

Just me. I don't have that much to spend, so my time line is a little longer now but shorter than if I waited to get all the parts up front. Ie if I bought an LS1, I'd have to wait to paint it but if I use the current engine than I can afford to paint it and drive it. It's been a tough adjustment, and I'll probably be running sans interior and some stuff just so I can drive it!

[MonzaRacer]

Bow I disagree on power and mileage. I had my 70 Monte Carlo with a 402 bbc and 3.55 gears, th400 and it could go back and forth to work and get 15-16 and on highway it could pull down 17.8 to 18 on good day.
So tuning for mileage can be done and this engine had tons of low end torque, in 4000lb car ran 9.00 flat smoking tires on a slipping tranny.
Properly built engines CAN get mileage, will an SBC beat an LS even if both are fi and tuned, probably not.
As for me I am building a 77 Monza, 3000lbs, 302 long rod sbc, not sure on trans, gonna run Megasquirt3 with LT1 intake and my own DIS, and hopefully down road I can get a couple of the ebay turbos to feed its power needs.
From numbers I figure I can make in the 500 to 600 hp range, still be drivable and have enough stuff to haul ass.
If I can locate an od trans and beef it up enough Ill be ok but my other 77 Monza with 355, carb and th350 and 3.42 gears it got 18+ mpg.
I figure on a cruise I could squeak 25+ but time will tell.
My Caprice ,well its going to be a 77 454 4bbl, th400 for now. Later on Ill get my 402 back together, maybe Ill stroke it with 454 crank ot just rebuild it as 0.060 402, but sold my 800 spread bore Holley so Ill need to figure new carb out or build EFI.
Properly tuned engines make power under load but also make good fuel consumption.
I have tuned many low mpg engines and pulled more power and more mpg out with little issues. Dont get me wrong, I cant make a 572 turn 800hp and make 30 mpg,, but I can make one run hard and get best possible mileage it can.
I tuned a fellas 496 and he ran it at local 1/8th mile track, and ran that 68/69 Chevelle and ran 5.85 and drove it to a car show in MO. and with the 4L80E he pulled down some mid to high 20s mpg,,,I'll email him and get some particulars, he said it ran great and had zero issues.
We tuned it sans wideband and still made pretty good guestimate on tune. I got him to install them and he says my leaned out cruise worked good he actually can cruise on flat ground at 60-70 mph with overdrive on he said it was running between 13.8 or 13.9 too 14.2 AFR. It now has a water/methanol injection, he uses straight methanol for racing with 93 octane and washer fluid for regular driving. He claims car is as good on gas as his truck if not better.
I am figuring my 302 will do ok especially if I get an overdrive tranny.
Turbo(s) will give me better power production potential, and hope mileage will follow suit.

[novaderrik]

you need to think of the car as a combination, and you don't need to go with modern engines with a lot of expensive and complicated electronics to do it, either. back in '93, i had a 76 Monte Carlo that would get an honest 30mpg if i drove it nice.. and there was nothing special about the car- i threw a $159 Northern rebuild kit into the stock 350 with the smallest cam they had.. it had an old WEIAND dual plane intake with the stock quadrajet bolted to it with an adapter plate.. stock 882 heads.. it had some crusty old headers and 4 feet of 2.5" pipe with Super Turbo mufflers stuck on the ends.. it was fed cool air from the front of the car with a home made dual snorkel air cleaner hooked up with some dryer duct- the carb was actually extremely cold to the touch and had water running off it after running for a few miles down the highway on humid 100 degree days. the exhaust crossover was left open in the intake to help heat up the air/fuel mixture after it left the carb and the stock TH350 trans and 2.56 gears were in the car. the car weighed 4200 pounds on the local grain scale, however accurate that was..
it wasn't a race car by any means, but it did put a friend's 351W powered 79 Mustang and my cousin's late 70's 280Z to shame a few times and would light up the right rear tire for as long as i wanted it to.. and with gas being right around $1 a gallon at the time, $5 was enough to drive all weekend.

the first thing you need to do before doing anything to the car is learn how to drive for efficiency. get a vacuum gauge and mount it in the car where you can see it out of the corner of your eye at all times.. every little twitch of your foot will move the needle- and every time the vacuum reading goes down, you are using extra fuel.
once you've got yourself trained to drive smoothly, then you can start experimenting with the car. a tuneup and playing with the timing and carb mixture screws will get you a long ways.
if you've got a small block Chevy, a set of vortec heads with flat top pistons and thin head gaskets would be a good place to start when planning the engine rebuild.

you need to know what rpm it will spend it's most time at and build for that- an engine that makes max torque at 4500 rpm will not get great mileage if you have it geared for 1700 rpm at 60mph, and an engine that makes max torque at 2500 rpm's won't be very efficient if you gear it to cruise at 3500rpm's.
the aero of the car is free mileage- block off as much of the grill as it will take before running hot and seal up all gaps behind the headlights and around the radiator itself- make sure that any air that gets into the engine bay goes thru the radiator core.
overdrive transmissions can sometimes help, but they might also hurt economy or not even change it at all- how much money are you willing to spend and how much effort are you willing to exert for $20 a year in gas savings? an overdrive trans might be worth it just to make the car more comfortable and quiet at highway speeds, even if it doesn't help mileage.. but that's a personal judgement call on your part..

all that being said- the newer LS series of engines are really tempting.. www.car-part.com has 80,000ish mile 5.3's listed for as low as $350 (only $100 more than a set of used Vortec heads).. it wouldn't be that hard to put one in almost anything and tweak it for efficiency and power.. you could get a 5.3, a brand new carb intake, and a few odds and ends to swap it into any older GM vehicle for about $1000..

[exwestracer]

If you decide to go with EFI, you will get the best mileage potential with a sequential fired, mass airflow (MAF) system. The older speed density units look and work basically the same, but don't have the information to cut the fuel mixture as closely.

[carguykeith]

The platform isn't for everybody, but you could do what you're after EASY with a G-body. I've got right at $20k in my build and literally half of that is in the oddball motor i went with. You could easily have a 600hp turbo LS1 T-56 combo for what I have in my motor and it would give you high 20's all day long...

[robotix]

Thank you, everybody! This is quite a bit of information to mull over for the time being. If I come across any more questions (and if I decide to go with a pro touring route, I certainly will) I'll know where to go!

Thanks again!

[Brian Duffee]

Thank you, everybody! This is quite a bit of information to mull over for the time being. If I come across any more questions (and if I decide to go with a pro touring route, I certainly will) I'll know where to go!

Thanks again!

Fuel injection does not automatically mean good fuel mileage. On any older car you choose to purchase, you can optimize fuel milage with vacuum timing advance and correcting the air/fuel ratio at cruise using a wide band sensor. A lot of the efficiency in newer engines is due to improved combustion via quench, high swirl chambers, and variable valve/cam timing. My two cents is to keep it simple (for budget and time reasons) and go with a carb and have the cool car you'd like to drive. Brian

[robotix]

Fuel injection does not automatically mean good fuel mileage. On any older car you choose to purchase, you can optimize fuel milage with vacuum timing advance and correcting the air/fuel ratio at cruise using a wide band sensor. A lot of the efficiency in newer engines is due to improved combustion via quench, high swirl chambers, and variable valve/cam timing. My two cents is to keep it simple (for budget and time reasons) and go with a carb and have the cool car you'd like to drive. Brian

That's kind of what I'm starting to think, really.. Even if I only had 8 miles to the gallon (Not likely to have such a low reading the way I drive), I drive less than 5k miles a year. Significantly less, really. But even 5k miles at 3.50 per gallon would cost, what, 2 grand a year? Insurance wouldn't be bad. Compare that to a 31k GT500 Convertible (I'm 18, Insurance would be worthy of a heart attack if I could pay for one after paying the insurance bill), and really year by year that gas wouldn't effect me as much.

Perhaps I should just keep the engine it came in, work it over a little, rebuild it, and just worry about better brakes, suspension and the like to save myself a lot of time and trouble.
I DO love the classic muscle cars.. And I LOVE the sound. I go to every car show I can.. That sound is addicting!

[ljfran2383]

With that kind of budget, I would buy a running muscle car, and PUT THE REST IN THE BANK FOR PARTS. I am a college senior, made it all the way through with my chevelle, but between upgrades as I go and parts for broken stuff, It added up. And that was a car that was "reliable" compared to most. Seriously, put the extra in the bank.

You will have a much better idea and can make a much much better plan once you have the car, and, no offence, you don't sound super-experienced, so I would not try to bite off a big project to finish in 6 months. Waiting for parts and waiting to make up your mind and figure stuff out can eat up that time. Trust me. I am trying to get my car together before next semester. My heater core gave out, so I am freshing up the interior, carpet, sound deadner, rust treating, doing some wire manangment, and relocating the battery, and reapolsteing the seat. and here I am, a week and a half out waiting on parts.

So, step 1. get running car,
then fix bugs (there will be, no matter what previous owner says)
then do a few projects to make it more street fiendly, but dont undertake anything massive.
enjoy, and wait until after college to do an all out build.

Good luck man! keep us posted

[Nessumsar]

With that kind of budget, I would buy a running muscle car, and PUT THE REST IN THE BANK FOR PARTS. I am a college senior, made it all the way through with my chevelle, but between upgrades as I go and parts for broken stuff, It added up. And that was a car that was "reliable" compared to most. Seriously, put the extra in the bank.

You will have a much better idea and can make a much much better plan once you have the car, and, no offence, you don't sound super-experienced, so I would not try to bite off a big project to finish in 6 months. Waiting for parts and waiting to make up your mind and figure stuff out can eat up that time. Trust me. I am trying to get my car together before next semester. My heater core gave out, so I am freshing up the interior, carpet, sound deadner, rust treating, doing some wire manangment, and relocating the battery, and reapolsteing the seat. and here I am, a week and a half out waiting on parts.

So, step 1. get running car,
then fix bugs (there will be, no matter what previous owner says)
then do a few projects to make it more street fiendly, but dont undertake anything massive.
enjoy, and wait until after college to do an all out build.

Good luck man! keep us posted

Hit the nail on the head.

After getting the car running solid, take a grand or two and buy some easy performance bits. Like a set of lowering springs (front/rear), sway bar(s), good shocks, better brake pads/shoes (Hawk HPS for example), and some wheels and tires; and all of those parts can be installed on the weekends without taking the car out of commission. With those few items, you'll have a car that rides/handles well, stops better, and looks nice.

Edit: You could also do some simple engine upgrades that should improve both power and economy. A dual-plane intake (RPM Airgap), a vacuum-secondaries carb, HEI distributor, and headers/exhaust; all of those pieces can be installed on the weekend as well.

[robotix]

With that kind of budget, I would buy a running muscle car, and PUT THE REST IN THE BANK FOR PARTS. I am a college senior, made it all the way through with my chevelle, but between upgrades as I go and parts for broken stuff, It added up. And that was a car that was "reliable" compared to most. Seriously, put the extra in the bank.

You will have a much better idea and can make a much much better plan once you have the car, and, no offence, you don't sound super-experienced, so I would not try to bite off a big project to finish in 6 months. Waiting for parts and waiting to make up your mind and figure stuff out can eat up that time. Trust me. I am trying to get my car together before next semester. My heater core gave out, so I am freshing up the interior, carpet, sound deadner, rust treating, doing some wire manangment, and relocating the battery, and reapolsteing the seat. and here I am, a week and a half out waiting on parts.

So, step 1. get running car,
then fix bugs (there will be, no matter what previous owner says)
then do a few projects to make it more street fiendly, but dont undertake anything massive.
enjoy, and wait until after college to do an all out build.

Good luck man! keep us posted

Hmm.. This is a very good point.


Hit the nail on the head.

After getting the car running solid, take a grand or two and buy some easy performance bits. Like a set of lowering springs (front/rear), sway bar(s), good shocks, better brake pads/shoes (Hawk HPS for example), and some wheels and tires; and all of those parts can be installed on the weekends without taking the car out of commission. With those few items, you'll have a car that rides/handles well, stops better, and looks nice.

Edit: You could also do some simple engine upgrades that should improve both power and economy. A dual-plane intake (RPM Airgap), a vacuum-secondaries carb, HEI distributor, and headers/exhaust; all of those pieces can be installed on the weekend as well.

Weekend projects.. That sounds much better than riding a bicycle to school in the mean time. lol!
If I find the right car at the right time, I'll be sure to keep you guys posted!

[71RS/SS396]

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but since you mentioned it in one of your previous posts, at 18 years old insurance that will cover you for the true value of your car is going to be hard if not impossible to get. A classic car insurance company won't touch you and a standard coverage policy isn't going to protect you in the event of a loss. Just some food for thought, you might want to research the insurance side before you dump a boat load of money into something.

[Taylor1969]

buy one of these to drive everyday... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fully-equipped-Ford-Ranger-ready-new-home-/110794790893?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item19cbe257ed

then get the car you want and spend the right amount of time/money on it. At 18 years old you need to focus on school, building your life and getting your future right. Buy the car and work on it slow and if you love it keep it for life.

Chris

[andrewb70]

buy one of these to drive everyday... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fully-equipped-Ford-Ranger-ready-new-home-/110794790893?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item19cbe257ed

then get the car you want and spend the right amount of time/money on it. At 18 years old you need to focus on school, building your life and getting your future right. Buy the car and work on it slow and if you love it keep it for life.

Chris

I wholeheartedly agree! Even down to owning a little truck for daily transportation. I have a 1999 Mazda B2500, which is basically a Ranger. I am 41 years old now and I have owned my GTO since I was 15. However, keep in mind that in 1985 my GTO was only 15 years old. It wasn't a classic, but just an old beat up Pontiac. I spent stupid money on it when I was a teenager and I really should not have. I didn't start to really restore it until I was 28 by which time I had a fulltime, very well paying job and a house with a garage.

If you insist on having a project now, I suggest you look into doing a newer body style and find a car that doesn't need a ton of rust repair and other body work. If you want to stay with a domestic brand, the G-bodies and 3rd Gen F-bodies are great low buck options. You can find low mileage cream puffs for under $5000, if not much less. If you don't mind other makes then doing a LS swap into any number of vehicles can be fun and result in a car you can drive and beat on, without having to worry about special insurance or whatever. I've built 2 second generation RX7s with LS swaps and they are great cars. Other cars to consider are Nissan 240SXs, or Z cars. I'd also check out the various BMW swaps and maybe even a Pontiac Solstice. There are a ton of options!!!

Having a newer car will allow you to learn about various systems, like brakes, suspension, and driveline. You will then be able to take that knowledge and experience into an older car that you can build later in life.

Just my 2 cents...

Andrew

[robotix]

It's funny that you guys say this; what I've been driving since I obtained my license is a 1997 Ford Ranger XLT. It would be available as my fall-back, if ever I had any issues and couldn't drive this car. I've never had any accidents or anything of the sort; the truck's only gotten better since I've gotten it! Poor thing has right around 200k miles, but runs like a champ.

Anyways. If I do a project, I'll want to make it a daily driver. End of story; I can't see myself getting something nice, putting lots of money into it, and letting it sit there.. No, I'd have to drive it.
I didn't think too much about insurance.. I was hoping Hagerty or Grundy would cover me, but I didn't think my age was going to get in the way!

As far as a newer car without rust repair.. My '97 ranger needs rust repair.. Lol it's one of those horrible things that comes along with living in Florida, I'm afraid, if the vehicle isn't treated right from the beginning.

Would most of you suggest just going with a nice car for now, saving up and working on a project after college?
Or would the better route be to continue driving my little truck while I work on a 80's or 90's project (The RX7 of course has always caught my eye, and a 5.0 or LS swap appears rather easy)?

I'm rather annoyed that I can't make up my mind on where I want to go with this, lol..