I want your guys opinion on an estimate I got to do some work on my 69 Camaro

[ls1240z]

I have a 69 Camaro in pretty decent shape body wise. I wanted to build the car to do some track days and autocross. I decided to place an order for a full frame chassis from roadster shop which is being built and should be done in about 3 to 4 weeks.
I went to SEMA last Nov to look for a good builder. I talked to a bunch of guys and decided to run with one company in LA which is 7 hrs from me. After dropping off my car, I got the estimate a week later. There was a bunch of stuff on the estimate that looked legit time wise but there is a few high dollar repairs that seem pretty questionable.
I dont have any time available to work on my car so I thought I would have a shop do it and pay for the labor but didnt realist that it seems to take them 3 times as long to do the work then it would me and cost 3 times as much as I thought.
I have built quite a few cars in my time and did a few hybrids as well. Even built a couple cars for some other guys so I know how long it takes to wrench on certain things.
I want to get some of your guys thoughts on the number of hours VS how long the job should take. Thanks in advance.







Description










$95.00


open


open
Mount front seats and alter floors as necessary











$95.00


6.00


$570.00
Remove sub frame, rear suspension, exhaust, fuel system and brake system











$95.00


3.00


$285.00
Remove seats, carpet and all door panels











$95.00


8.00


$760.00
Remove sub rails from floor (allowance)











$95.00


4.00


$380.00
Notch floor at rear seat foot wheel area (allowance)











$95.00


4.00


$380.00
Notch trunk area below package tray (allowance)











$95.00


8.00


$760.00
Mock up chassis under body (allowance)











$95.00


6.00


$570.00
Mount rear of body (allowance)











$95.00


12.00


$1,140.00
Rebuild trunk floor below package tray (allowance)











$95.00


8.00


$760.00
Rebuild floor at rear seat foot wheel area (allowance)











$95.00


24.00


$2,280.00
Install D.S.E. Tub Kit (allowance)











$95.00


6.00


$570.00
Mock up motor and transmission











$95.00


open


open
Floor alternations at transmission











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
Mock up hydro boost











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
Mock up hydraulic clutch











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
mock up headers











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
Mock up steering











$95.00


3.00


$285.00
Mock up radiator and fans











$95.00


12.00


$1,140.00
Mock up A/C including lines and bulkheads











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
Mock up fuel tank with fuel pump











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
Mock up front bumper











$95.00


8.00


$760.00
Remove, fuel tank, radiator, steering, hydraulic clutch, hydro boost, body from frame












$95.00


6.00


$570.00
Disassemble chassis for powder coat












$95.00


16.00


$1,520.00
Prep bottom of floors for undercoat and spray











$95.00


8.00


$760.00
Prep inside of car for Lizard Skin and spray











$95.00


24.00


$2,280.00
Weld up holes on fire wall and body work fire wall











$95.00


8.00


$760.00
Prep fire wall and paint











$95.00


24.00


$2,280.00
Reassemble chassis and install motor and transmission











$95.00


6.00


$570.00
Install body on chassis











$95.00


60.00


$5,700.00
Rewire vehicle complete (allowance)











$95.00


2.00


$190.00
Mount battery in trunk











$95.00


24.00


$2,280.00
Install hydro boost and plumb include brake lines S.S











$95.00


10.00


$950.00
Install hydraulic clutch and plumb











$95.00


16.00


$1,520.00
Install fuel tank and plumb











$95.00


24.00


$2,280.00
Install Vintage Air unit (allowance)











$95.00


3.00


$285.00
Install radiator and fans











$95.00


10.00


$950.00
Build upper and lower radiator pipes











$95.00


6.00


$570.00
Reinstall interior





1,350.00





$95.00





$0.00
Custom dual exhaust











$95.00


16.00


$1,520.00
Final test tune and adjust

[SLO_Z28]

$38115.... um no. Not for what you're getting. That is absurd....

[snappytravis]

I just put a rear frame section in 69 camaro and replaced rear trunk floor, It takes a lot of work, 95.00 a hour holy ****, I think in wyo most of my buddys that have shops are at 55-60 bucks, It takes so much time to do this stuff If they are giving you a quote and you are good with it It probably isn't to bad. There times don't look to far out of line in my opinion. If I were you I would have them do some work and pay, so you don't get a bill for 10,000, and also keep a eye on the quality, the last thing you want is a bill for 30,000 and a car that isn't right.
Good luck

[bret]

We've done many cars over the years...their estimates are,if anything, low. Hourly rate is healthy, but that's a function of location.
It takes 2500-3000 hours to do a camaro start to finish, if you want a high quality piece.

[solarguy09]

We've done many cars over the years...their estimates are,if anything, low. Hourly rate is healthy, but that's a function of location.
It takes 2500-3000 hours to do a camaro start to finish, if you want a high quality piece.

I am not sure of the hours spent , but the rate is par with other high quality performance shops. I am talking professional, high quality, performance shops with a track record of killer builds..

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think they are light on a couple procedures and maybe a TENNIE, and I mean tennie bit high on a couple others.

That $95 rate is exactly whay we have 4 cars from Cali in our shop.

[SLO_Z28]

In the end, after spending $45,000, you're going to be a lot slower than a mid pack c-prepared car. For that kind of money you could take your car to a REAL race shop, and have something very fast, especially since you're not following any kind of rule book. I was VERY underwhelmed with the roadster shop cars at OUSCI, they were some of the worst performing cars there, they had massive amounts of understeer. Im sure that 90% of it was poor setup, but it makes you wonder about buying a chassis from a chassis builder than cant do a proper setup.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/DSC_0268-1.jpg

[Vegas69]

24 hours to smooth a firewall? 10 hours to make radiator pipes? Charging you to mock up engine but then charges you to mockup headers?

Looks a little fluffy to me.

[EBMC]

One thing to keep in mind is that there are varying degrees of quality. One shop may be cheaper but if it is sub par installation and the job was rushed, was it really a better deal? Is the shop licensed, insured and will they be there to stand behind their work? The main thing is to get the best bang for the buck, although sometimes it may be more $ initially, it is almost always a wiser choice in the long run. Labor rate should not be the sole determining factor in where you choose to spend your hard earned cash.

[ls1240z]

$38115.... um no. Not for what you're getting. That is absurd....
The price is steep....for a few things.
The problem is that I brought a lot of thing with me that I asked to have done and none of it is on the estimate. I brought a fire system, DSE actuator kit for the front flip lights, LED light kit, need full cage and fabricate the floor boards to fit my new seats that I brought. If the estimate is $38K+ I can only imagine the bill getting over $20K+ more and I still dont have a motor.


EBMC

One thing to keep in mind is that there are varying degrees of quality. One shop may be cheaper but if it is sub par installation and the job was rushed, was it really a better deal? Is the shop licensed, insured and will they be there to stand behind their work? The main thing is to get the best bang for the buck, although sometimes it may be more $ initially, it is almost always a wiser choice in the long run. Labor rate should not be the sole determining factor in where you choose to spend your hard earned cash.
I dont want to mention the shop on the forum. They are very well known in the hot rod industry so they are definitely licensed and almost 100% they will back a warranty after talked with them. The quality of the work is real good quality. No question about that. I know the cost of living in California is expensive and I know labor cost usually max out at $95/hr around these parts. I expected that cost. I just question the hours it takes to do certain jobs.

1)To give a couple examples of things that I think are over priced....... The wiring of the car. They mentioned to me that I should rewire the car even though there is nothing wrong with the wiring. The cost to rewire the car is about $6K+.
I know you can buy a quality harness online for $600 to $700 and takes about a day to install it unless they are making a custom harness from scratch but why would you want to re invent the wheel when you can just buy one.

2) Mock up the radiator for $190 and then charge me to remove it and then charge $285 to re-install it. Its a radiator?
If it's mocked up, it should be pretty much ready to bolt it in because the prep work is already done. Should take a 1/2 hour to bolt it in.

3)The mock up of the hyroboost is $190. The unit comes with a billet plate with 4 holes that already mount to the body. Not sure why it needs to be mocked up but that fine with me.
They will charge me to remove it with a few other things and charge me $2,280 to re-install it again and run SS lines right down to the frame about 2 feet away because the frame will already have SS lines made. This just seems very expensive.

4) The mock up of the headers. Time is $190/2 hrs to install 2 headers to see if they fit. When I mocked up headers, I just hand tightened 2 bolts on each header to make sure of fitment. Then I will be charged time to remove them.

5) The mock up of the bumper...Why does it need mocking up. Its already installed and doesn't need to be removed and the steering. It almost seems like they are just making up work. I dont know... I could be wrong.


Vegas69

24 hours to smooth a firewall? 10 hours to make radiator pipes? Charging you to mock up engine but then charges you to mockup headers?
Looks a little fluffy to me.
Your right, its just pretty pricy, especially $950 to make a upper and lower radiator pipe.


bret

We've done many cars over the years...their estimates are,if anything, low. Hourly rate is healthy, but that's a function of location.
It takes 2500-3000 hours to do a camaro start to finish, if you want a high quality piece.
No offense, but some shops that I talked to tend to stick up for one another. There is a couple old school guys I talked to that just wanted to laugh but held back. I could tell they were holding back there emotions because you guys tend to cover for one another. I do the same in my business. In my business if another competitor lowers there price way to low he hears it from other guys because it hurts the industry. There is nothing wrong with making money but some things are out way out there. To me, it's important that my my customer feels like they got a fair deal and if not.....I want to know why because my reputation is everything.

[EBMC]

Sorry for not staying on topic but my previous post was more of a general comment on choosing shops and not referring to this specific estimate. I'm in no way defending the numbers on the estimate either way ( in fact, to be honest, I didn't even read the estimate until just now) but, as an example, We have two cars in our shop right now that were pulled from other shops that needed a ton of rework due to bad workmanship. They thought they were getting a good deal at the time with the other shops but it wound up costing the customer much more in the long run for us to redo the work. ( check out our "tenacity" at ebmc thread on lat-g as a extreme example of this!) like I said these are just general comments and I know I veered a little off course from your original posting but i just want people to keep an open mind when choosing a shop. Meanwhile I look forward to the build thread on your car! Keep us posted......

[67zo6Camaro]

I have personally done most of those items on your list. Some were completed at a prior shop that I used to work for and some on my own personall ride. Yes Some of the hour numbers are spot on. However, there are a few things in my opinion that may be double counting. In addition, there are a few that I think may be way out of line with the hour estimates,,, Example wiring for one, or removal of fuel tank, radiator, steering....ect. The big issue that contributes to this sticker shock is the hourly rate of $95.00. If this is a well know shop, as you say.... and they have a great track record then most likely you are paying a premium for this know quality of work with confidence that the job will get done. But, just on the flip side, remove some of those questionable items from the bid..... Then apply a $55.00 or $65.00 per hour rate to the items that seem to be in line with the industry standard for time to complete. You will find that the new estimate of +-201 hours (adjusted to my opinion, by removing some of the questionalbe items and double time for mocking up) then you would have as comparable estimated of $11,055 to $13,065.00 for the labor (not the 384 hours, +-$36,000). Even at 260 hours at lets say $65.00 per hour would be $16,900. Which now... (the $13,000 to $17,000 labor cost) does not seem that far out of line. Customization is expensive, and picking a known shop with a good history can be even more exspensive.

Try going back and talking through some of the questionable items.....

Good luck.

Edit... goofffed up on adding

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

sounds like some estimates of people ive dealt with..

go figure.

[Nine Ball]

Damn this can be an expensive hobby if you don't own some tools and turn some wrenches.

[dj3]

Pay some friends to do the east stuff for you..Hydroboost..vintage air..wiring..interior..and let the pros do bodywork.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The biggest out of line procedure I can see and (which I missed in my first review) is the wiring. Someone said a day? No way. But Michael and I can do a Classic Update in 32 hours (Starting at opposite ends and meeting in the middle, 2 guys, 2 days). Done it. But that was also as fast as I can see it getting done. But this was 2 guys that work really well together doing their umpteenth Classic update.

If we were doing it we would have 20 hours on the firewall for a but welded panel, welded and filled seam.

The radiator pipes? Subjective,but I think a tennie high.

Some of the mock up labor that has been pointed out seems a bit excessive and the install labor should be pennies after mock up so that seems like a bit of double dipping.

Mocking up the Vintage Air (12 hours) and then 24 hours to install is absolutely double dipping. I put a young employee that never did a Vintage Air on a 20 hour challenge and he beat the clock by 1 hour. But maybe they never did a Vintage Air?

But as mentioned, it is the $95 rate that contributes to the un recoverable investment. But as Bret mentioned, that is a function of geography.

[Matt@BOS]

There are a handful of good shops in the Southern California area that charge less than $95 an hour. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should move your car this instant. I originally had my car at a shop with a $95 hourly rate. I did move the car, but it wasn't directly because of the hourly rate. I was more a function of how the first shop functioned. They were a little greedy with hours here and there. They would do little bits of work in addition to the estimate that "needed to be done" at the time, when in actuality it didn't need to be done at the time. Really, it was the overall atmosphere around the shop that made me change. The shop turned out great work, but it wasn't great to its employees, and it had few repeat customers. I got the feeling I was basically writing a check for them to build a car. I wanted to be working with a shop that would help me build a car within the vision that I had, to the extent that it was feasible. The last two things here threw up a red flag. Building these cars is expensive, and a number of people that can pay to have one car built, can either pay to have another built, or will eventually sell and build another because hot rodding is their hobby.

What I'm getting at is that $95 an hour is steep, however, get to know the shop. If they don't charge more for you to hang around, lol, take a day off and let them know you want to show up to see what they're doing and how they're doing it. You might find that all of the little things are harder than they look, and realize that the money is justified. On the other hand, you might gain a better sense that you need to take your car elsewhere.

For whatever it is worth, if the second shop I had taken my car to also had a $95 hourly rate, I probably would have cringed and ponied up the cash, because I found that I liked working with them. They wanted me to be as involved as possible, and let me be as hands on as I could safely be. I got to see first hand what it took, and I never felt ripped off.

Matt

[rjsjea]

$95/hr......walk away. Plus it's 7hours away.......might as well send it a state away.

[solarguy09]

Although the Labor seems high, you must remember ,it is California, and again if the Work is Professional, Top Quality Work from a Shop that turns out Quality Cars..

Just so you know, if the Solarguy comes out to your house for a Solar call, it is a 95.00 Service Call, and 32.00 a quarter hour....Just the going rate in California.

Again get the best work done right the first time..And do what you can yourself..

Not to say , that you can't get great work for less..You might....

And Inflation will only make things more expensive...

[dontlifttoshift]

It sounds pretty decent to me.....but what do I know....

SLO Z28, did you happen to see Chris Jacob's Roadster Shop chassied Chevell at optima? It did pretty well.

[DJW32]

In the end, after spending $45,000, you're going to be a lot slower than a mid pack c-prepared car. For that kind of money you could take your car to a REAL race shop, and have something very fast, especially since you're not following any kind of rule book. I was VERY underwhelmed with the roadster shop cars at OUSCI, they were some of the worst performing cars there, they had massive amounts of understeer. Im sure that 90% of it was poor setup, but it makes you wonder about buying a chassis from a chassis builder than cant do a proper setup.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/DSC_0268-1.jpg

The roadster shop didn't really have a dog in the fight at the ousci shoot out. They brought million dollar street cars that were built to showcase their talent. Remember, those street cars are customer cars. I bet they could build a very competitive car for the event...I remember Phil driving the wheels off of the green chevelle the first year at the event. Their IRS setups look sick! I would have no issues putting one of their setups under my Camaro.

[ls1240z]

I want to thank you guys for your opinions. I ended up calling and speaking with them and they lowered the price per hour to $85 and I removed a few things off the list. There were a lot of open ended estimates and didn't know how much that would cost me. I don't like that feeling. I went down and picked up my car and took it to my buddies house in LA with the intentions of removing the interior and a bunch of other stuff so I can save thousands. I figured I would bring the car back the next day but on my way, I figured I would swing by a couple other shops and get some other ball park verbal quotes. There was 2 shops that didn't even seem interested or motivated which sucked. Both didn't like to do tubs and acted like they were busy with projects even though they said they would give me a written quote that I still have yet to see anything 2 weeks later. The last shop I went to was awesome. I'll mention the name in a different thread when I post updates. There builds were pretty sick and a lot of attention to detail. I spoke with them and explained what I was interested in doing and gave him the list of things I wanted done and he quoted me $10 to $15K less the the original shop I went to!
So I left the car there and await a written quote.