Manual Drums to Kore3 ø325mm C5/C6

[devwil68]

Guys...I need some help! Im so new at this! Iv done so much searching, and there is so much info out there, my head is about to explode!

I have just gotten myself into a 69 camaro. I have a complete manual drum setup...all stock stuff...and i wanna make is safer to drive! My goal is to replace the front with the Kore3 ø325mm C5/C6 setup and to have a power break system. I see stuff on the "short" and "tall" spindles...do i need either one of these in order to make the Kore3 setup work? Only real modification I currently have is 2" drop springs and shocks on the front with a SBC. I think this might be a problem...but im running the regular 15" rallys also....this kore3 setup will work with them right?

Thanks in advance to any and all the help i can get! I just need to make this thing safer to drive on the road for my sake. here is a pic just for fun.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/12/DSCF0176-1.jpg

[68sixspeed]

You have short spindles if they are stock 67-69 camaro still. But you won't fit the c5/6 13" disc in a 15" rally rim. You can fit a c4 12" if you run a 3/16 spacer and grind the fins a touch on the caliper. I use to run that setup on my car some years back. If my memory is working, the rims on my front were 15x7 4.25 backspace. Dan

[shep]

Call Tobin at Kore3 he will take care of you.

[devwil68]

68sixspeed...is there any drawbacks from just getting the C4 stuff? I guess i have always seen the C5 recommendations on the board. I also didn't see any of the C4 stuff on kore3 website either. Will i have kicked myself in the...you know what...if i get the C4 stuff?


Shep...yea, it is always better to go directly to the source, but just wanted to get some minor knowledge before i called those guys up.

Also, any advice on going to the power break system?

[devwil68]

does anybody know of this kit..good/bad/ugly? Says it fits the 15" wheel.

SuperTwin 2-piston Drum to disc brake conversion kit with 11 in. rotors; power. Includes new disc brake spindles.

[Apogee]

You'll need 17" wheels minimum to clear the C5/C6 brakes. If you plan on sticking with 15" wheels, you've got a few options, albeit not from KORE3. That said, the factory front discs are not all that bad an option for those wheels as they utilize 11" x 1" rotors and single-piston D52 calipers and they can be found for relatively cheap used. Alternatively, most of the vintage racers run the 4-piston Delco-Moraine calipers with the C3 Corvette 11.75" x 1.25" rotors so those were the best brakes that are still era correct, so those can be a relatively good upgrade in terms of thermal capacity with the larger, heavier rotors, although the OE caliper design is definitely dated. Wilwood offers aluminum replacement calipers for the D52 and C3 calipers with more conventional piston and seal designs (D8-6 and/or D8-4) that is also substantially lighter.

Tobin
KORE3

[devwil68]

Tobin~

Thank you for your insight! I will not be able to run a different set of wheels for a while...until funds allow it....but what I think I am hearing is I could go with a reproduction factory POWER BREAK SETUP, and have the functionality of a daily driver.

Would this be a good idea? See below link. Says it clears a 15" wheel.

http://www.ssbrakes.com/commerce/detail/index.cfm?nPID=8314

[Apogee]

Tobin~

Thank you for your insight! I will not be able to run a different set of wheels for a while...until funds allow it....but what I think I am hearing is I could go with a reproduction factory POWER BREAK SETUP, and have the functionality of a daily driver.

Would this be a good idea? See below link. Says it clears a 15" wheel.

http://www.ssbrakes.com/commerce/detail/index.cfm?nPID=8314

Sure, no problem. Any OE type kit will work fine, although I would personally stick with the OE iron calipers over the SSBC components for both cost and performance reasons. You can't really see the calipers behind the rally wheels anyway, so paying extra for bling now just postpones any future upgrades you intend to make. I think Summit sells that SSBC kit for close to $1100...you can get the Summit OE kit for almost half that: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-BK1201/ and for even less elsewhere. Also keep in mind that items like the master cylinder may need to change if/when you upgrade to C5/C6 brakes when your wheels allow.

Tobin
KORE3

[cheapthrillz]

Does the summit kit allow for the Wilwood D52 upgrade? If so, that would be the way I'd go.... to keep the 15's atleast

[68sixspeed]

68sixspeed...is there any drawbacks from just getting the C4 stuff? I guess i have always seen the C5 recommendations on the board. I also didn't see any of the C4 stuff on kore3 website either. Will i have kicked myself in the...you know what...if i get the C4 stuff?


In the effort of trying everything on my car since I started building it in 1992... I've tried a few combos... started with GM 11" (1970 montecarlo) discs for the first couple years with the c4 (92 vette) rear discs... then the c4 discs on the front, then the c5 13" discs ont he front, then last winter Tobin set me up with the C6-Z06 stuff for better track performance. So each one does get better, especially from a heat soak standpoint. The C4 vs C5 difference is a bigger pad and bigger pistons on the c5 as well as a more rigid caliper and heavier/thicker rotors that do cool better. The larger pistons help the pedal feel. But there are a lot of c4 corvettes going around the autocross and track and with the right pad it is quite capable especially with good brake pad like a Hawk HP+ or Carbotech. The setup I ran actually came from Dave Pozzi's website, I'll see if I can find a link tonight. I think I still have some laser cut brackets around. It's a inexpensive DIY project. -Dan

edit- found the link with the brake kit info, let me know if you need brackets.

http://www.pozziracing.com/12_corvette_brakes_on_fgen.htm

[Apogee]

Does the summit kit allow for the Wilwood D52 upgrade? If so, that would be the way I'd go.... to keep the 15's atleast

Yes...any D52 based brake kit (which basically included most of the 60's and 70's GM applciations as well as some into the 90's) is a candidate for the Wilwood D52 calipers.

[cheapthrillz]

Yes...any D52 based brake kit (which basically included most of the 60's and 70's GM applciations as well as some into the 90's) is a candidate for the Wilwood D52 calipers.

Would that be good value for the money? You'd be looking at right at $1000 for the summit kit and wilwood upgrade.... How much better are the wilwoods than the summit single piston calipers?

[Apogee]

Would that be good value for the money? You'd be looking at right at $1000 for the summit kit and wilwood upgrade.... How much better are the wilwoods than the summit single piston calipers?

I think that it is a good value for the money, however how much better they are relative to the OE cast iron calipers is a little more complicated. I guess it depends on what your budget and priorities are. The Wilwood aluminum D52's arguably look better and are significantly lighter than the OE cast iron units and they have twin-pistons, so the pad support is substantially better. The down side to the twin-pistons is that they can interfere with shim rivets on some D52 pads...Wilwood avoids this issue by not using shims on any of their pads. The primary thing I would change about the Wilwood D52's would have been to include "abutment" shims where the caliper bodies contact the mounting brackets for wear/sliding reasons, although I haven't really seen or heard of any issues in this regard yet, although it is still a relatively new product. Most of their other calipers run some sort of steel shims where the steel pad backing plates contact the calipers...the D52 being a floating design, the logical place to shim would be between the caliper body and mounting bracket since that's where the brake torque is transmitted from the pads to the knuckle.

Tobin
KORE3

[devwil68]

In the effort of trying everything on my car since I started building it in 1992... I've tried a few combos... started with GM 11" (1970 montecarlo) discs for the first couple years with the c4 (92 vette) rear discs... then the c4 discs on the front, then the c5 13" discs ont he front, then last winter Tobin set me up with the C6-Z06 stuff for better track performance. So each one does get better, especially from a heat soak standpoint. The C4 vs C5 difference is a bigger pad and bigger pistons on the c5 as well as a more rigid caliper and heavier/thicker rotors that do cool better. The larger pistons help the pedal feel. But there are a lot of c4 corvettes going around the autocross and track and with the right pad it is quite capable especially with good brake pad like a Hawk HP+ or Carbotech. The setup I ran actually came from Dave Pozzi's website, I'll see if I can find a link tonight. I think I still have some laser cut brackets around. It's a inexpensive DIY project. -Dan

edit- found the link with the brake kit info, let me know if you need brackets.

http://www.pozziracing.com/12_corvette_brakes_on_fgen.htm

that is good stuff, but i cant do that unless i run some 17" rims right? im under the impression i can only run 11" rotors with my 15" rallys.


Would that be good value for the money? You'd be looking at right at $1000 for the summit kit and wilwood upgrade.... How much better are the wilwoods than the summit single piston calipers?

What is the wilwood upgrade? is it just a better caliper as far as piston size and quality?

[cheapthrillz]

What is the wilwood upgrade? is it just a better caliper as far as piston size and quality?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-BK1201/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-BK1201/)
+
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WIL-140-11291-BK/
=
Better than the SSBC kit

[devwil68]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-bk1201/ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-bk1201/)
+
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-140-11291-bk/
=
better than the ssbc kit

cool!

[68sixspeed]

that is good stuff, but i cant do that unless i run some 17" rims right? im under the impression i can only run 11" rotors with my 15" rallys.

With the 12" rotors you will get it into the 15" rally. I had to run a 3/16" spacer and sand the corner of the cooling fins on the calipers but it made it fine. (they offered c4 with 12" or 13" discs) -Dan

[Rick Dorion]

I ran the C4 setup using Dan's brackets. Great product/setup! However, in manual mode I had to use a 13/16" master cylinder to get acceptable performance even using an aggresive pad. I'd suggest going with a power brake setup if you're set on doing a C4 system.

[cheapthrillz]

Devwil68, this discussion will go in circles until you define your project. Are you ever going to upgrade wheels to 17+ inches or do you want to stay with the rally wheels?

If you want to upgrade eventually, I would just find a stock conversion kit like the summit one for the front and run stock drums in the back. That should give you all the "safety" you are looking for for the time being. Then, when you get your new wheels, call Tobin up and order the C5/6 full disc conversion for the front and rear.

If you want to get the maximum braking performance per dollar that will fit behind your rallys, then you'll have to run something like one of the set ups that Rick and Dan are talking about with the C4 calipers.

[devwil68]

Devwil68, this discussion will go in circles until you define your project. Are you ever going to upgrade wheels to 17+ inches or do you want to stay with the rally wheels?

If you want to upgrade eventually, I would just find a stock conversion kit like the summit one for the front and run stock drums in the back. That should give you all the "safety" you are looking for for the time being. Then, when you get your new wheels, call Tobin up and order the C5/6 full disc conversion for the front and rear.

If you want to get the maximum braking performance per dollar that will fit behind your rallys, then you'll have to run something like one of the set ups that Rick and Dan are talking about with the C4 calipers.

I totally agree. for the time being, I am going to run the 15" rally wheels. I dont want to spend the money on a set of 17" wheels or so right now...in the future i do want to do a mini-tub with a set of 18's....but if i have the money to do all that...then im sure breaks will not be as large of a purchase at that point in time. I do think that I will do exactly what you are talking about....just running a front power disk kit like and rear drums. I have gotten a pretty good deal for a forum price at MCB on a kit with all pre-bent lines and things like that....plus its less than the summit kit!

Thank you all for your help! this is exactly how forums are supposed to work! one confusing question gets all the focus and help is deserves to render amazing product results in the end! I really do appreciate it!